Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Mutica]

This is VERY untrue. Whether or not someone will use a 1.0 que system is up to them, but any competitive player completely disregarding the que system or setting it to 0, is handicapping himself. WoW had a built in .5 second que system and if you set TOR's at 0, spamming keys can still result in slight delays between abilities.

 

Even in WoW where the combat responsiveness is immaculate, without a que system, spamming your ability key will still result in SOME TYPE of delay. This would be incredibly detrimental to a true MIN/MAX player.

 

This is EXACTLY why I laugh at people claiming they are hardcore when they advise me to change this setting to fix the issue.

 

P.S. Not at all directed at you sir because you are in NO WAY claiming to be as hardcore as those I am mentioning.

 

.5 secs seems huge though, I didn't know wow had that? I mean I know they implemented that in Cata... and the issue with it being on keypress rather than key release vs swtor. But I thought WoW didn't have ability queuing till very recently.

[Xcore]

 

Dunno if this is any help because I'm just spamming heals and channeled abilities but here you go anyway.

 

Post 1.1.0b patch.

 

Interesting, it does look better but ill remain sceptical as its only two spells. Many times Aimed Shot --> Instant Ability worked well too but that's meaningless.

 

We all just need to test it tonight and see where it stands, I am very curious how going Into cover --> cover pulse will look and basically how reliable the system will be In real situations.... Excited for tonight. Even if it isn't completely fixed, an improvememt is a good step as long as they keep going until it gets to the point of responsiveness of WoW...

 

Once that has been achieved, evolve the game through content, UI customization, hi res texture introduction...and we'll all debate the inclusion of Addons and such happily.

 

Once this responsiveness and feeling has been dealt with, its a rather easy road to Market Leadership and the end of WoW/Blizzard domination...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Until Titan... then other MMOs die for another decade...

[Lakaiiiiiii]

As you guys have noticed (and probably read in the patch notes), one major part of our series of ability delay improvements was patched onto the live servers with the maintenance last night (patch 1.1.0b). We decided that the improvements seen with this fix were significant enough for us to roll this patch out as quickly as possible instead of waiting for the next scheduled patch.

 

Your feedback from the servers so far indicates that this change has had dramatic, positive impact on combat gameplay.

 

That said, we're not done improving combat responsiveness!

 

• As mentioned in my blog a few days ago, there are some additional fixes currently on our public test server as part of patch 1.1.1, which will roll out as soon as we're satisfied with that patch.
   
  
• We've heard your mixed feedback regarding the new cooldown animation that was part of patch 1.1, and we have improvements to the readability of that UI coming down the pipe.
   
  
• We're looking into improving the accuracy of cast bars. Their behavior should already be significantly improved with today's patch, but we believe there is still room to improve.
   
  
• We're also working on improvements to the responsiveness of individual ability animations, including faction specific timing differences and issues where shortening an ability activation time does not properly shorten it's animation.
  

Again, thank you for your constructive feedback on this issue, it has been vital to us in identifying and resolving this situation.

 

Regards

 

Georg

 

This just in!

[Starglide]

This just in!

 

Ok, I still haven't checked how much better it is, but I hope they aren't slowing down on the issue now that feedback has been positive. I still see a disconnection with cast bars and animations, even by just viewing the videos and I hope that they will continue to unveil fixes in coming patches (ie we dont have to wait too long).

 

That being said; until I feel the system is as tight as WoW, I will never stop reporting here.

 

EDIT: I really wish I had a high level character on the PTR to test the even further fix implementation mentioned in that excerpt.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Starglide

[Putok]

It's better, but not perfect, and still very inconsistent.

 

I tested the delay on a few abilities here by recording and advancing frame by frame. I can post the vid up on YouTube if people want to actually see it themselves. I noted the delay for each ability. In the case of Dark Ward, each use is seperated by a comma. Only twice was it .2 or higher. On the first use, there was no delay, the ability activated in the same frame as the button push. Defensive CDs also activated in the same frame as button push. I used both at once, to see if two off-GCD abilities at once would cause any wonkyness. Both relics took .3s or grater.

 

Dark Ward: Under .03, .2, .2, .16, .07, .13, .1

Defensive CDs: Under .03,

Relic: .34, .3,

Recklessness: .13,

Force Speed: .1,

 

.2 is the VERY high end of acceptable, IMHO. Ideally, I'd like to see everything at .1s or less. Dark Ward was at .1s or less 3 out of 7 times in this simple test.

 

Relics were very slow to activate, slow enough that they actually seemed slow when playing the game, not just watching the video.

[trublmaker]

Interesting, it does look better but ill remain sceptical as its only two spells. Many times Aimed Shot --> Instant Ability worked well too but that's meaningless.

 

We all just need to test it tonight and see where it stands, I am very curious how going Into cover --> cover pulse will look and basically how reliable the system will be In real situations....

 

You won't be happy going into cover I'm afraid.

[Morevil]

Just in case anyone thinks WoW does not have a queue system for abilities, they do.

 

Here is a post from GC back in October 2010.

 

"We had to change the ability queue system you are describing to fix an exploit that was threatening to become pretty widespread. It is unfortunately one of those cases where a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

 

We are working on an improvement where the most recent command will override the previous one. If for example you are spamming Hamstring, and then succeed in snaring someone, you can switch to Mortal Strike which will clear out the Hamstring queue instead of wasting more GCDs on Hamstring. "

[jHats]

No, this is impossible, from a competitive stand point. And a huge chunk of the playerbase play this as a competitive game. The instant cast spells have to be instant.

 

Huge chunk? Please, share your %s and numbers on your concrete information.

[Mutica]

Just in case anyone thinks WoW does not have a queue system for abilities, they do.

 

Here is a post from GC back in October 2010.

 

"We had to change the ability queue system you are describing to fix an exploit that was threatening to become pretty widespread. It is unfortunately one of those cases where a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

 

We are working on an improvement where the most recent command will override the previous one. If for example you are spamming Hamstring, and then succeed in snaring someone, you can switch to Mortal Strike which will clear out the Hamstring queue instead of wasting more GCDs on Hamstring. "

 

That quote is a good find... it seems though in SWTOR we can't or can't override the queue the way WoW has it implemented. I don't know. If you have a queue but can easily override that seems ok... but right now that doesn't seem the case maybe.

[Blue]

Just in case anyone thinks WoW does not have a queue system for abilities, they do.

 

Here is a post from GC back in October 2010.

 

"We had to change the ability queue system you are describing to fix an exploit that was threatening to become pretty widespread. It is unfortunately one of those cases where a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

 

We are working on an improvement where the most recent command will override the previous one. If for example you are spamming Hamstring, and then succeed in snaring someone, you can switch to Mortal Strike which will clear out the Hamstring queue instead of wasting more GCDs on Hamstring. "

 

The system that was exploitable though was FLAWLESS. Literally the best combat I have had in an MMO EVER. The cata MS fix though was not up to snuff.

 

That said as of 1.0.1b I am still noticing lag that still needs improvement. It has however significantly improved.

[Xcore]

I find it funny official Bioware posts in a thread called "Ability Delay is Gone!!!1" but not in this one... perhaps we need to be more Pro-Bioware?

[StrykerOne]

Well, I sort of agree that those stating they do not "feel" it cannot be truly competitive players. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it boils down to three things if they do not understand ability delay:

 

• Players not having anything to reference it to (if they have never played WoW since WoW is the only game to nail responsiveness).
  
• Players "feeling" it but cannot 'put their finger' on it.
  
• Players never truly played WoW correctly. Therefore never feeling what real responsiveness is.
  

 

Speaking only for myself, I can say that I don't notice the ability delay. Howver, I should also note that:

 

• I played WoW only briefly, only in PvE, and never at a level I would consider "competitive"
  
• My primary MMO experience is with City of Heroes, where there is no such thing as an instant cast and all abilities are animation limited by design
  
• I have yet to do any real PvP in TOR
  

 

In my normal PvE gameplay every ability seems to fire exactly when it should (aside from the speeder bug). There may be a couple that don't trigger precisely according to the GCD but as a longtime CoH player I'm expecting things to synch with the animations rather than a GCD and in general they do. I only see any delay between when I hit a button and when the ability starts to charge up or fires off if I am lagging, and I don't expect anything to take effect before it finishes animating so I've never even checked that. I've certainly never had an ability fail to fire at all without significant lag being present.

 

That said, I have zero PvP experience and I hear the problem is a lot worse in warzones than in PvE maps. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the people who claim to see no problem may be PvEers and / or used to MMOs that have more delays (by design) than WoW does. I'd also like to point out that TOR isn't WoW, and will never have the same exact feel no matter what, so hardcore WoW players are in for a bit of a learning curve even if the PvP performance issues are fixed (and from what I hear, those go beyond just ability lag). But if they never get things so finely tuned that PvP turns into something that requires high twitch skills to be good at then frankly I'll count that as a positive, because I'm not a twitch gamer, never will be a twitch gamer, and prefer games where your choice of what abilities to use and when to use them matters more than how many milliseconds it takes you to hit a button.

 

(Though certainly I do expect the abilities I use to actually work, and the timing of those abilities to be consistent. If that's not the case in PvP then it does need fixing.)

[Starglide]

I find it funny official Bioware posts in a thread called "Ability Delay is Gone!!!1" but not in this one... perhaps we need to be more Pro-Bioware?

 

I though the same exact thing. Well, I pretty much read your posts and say "I was just thinking that" or "I was just about to post that", so its no surprise. Sort of how it is no surprise BioWare would post in a thread of praise as opposed to the thread that lead them to understand the delays in the first place.

 

Honestly, after all the work we've put in (you more than anyone else), it is like a spit in the face...

 

P.S. I love how they state they have heard positive responses that it is fixed but that THEY are not done! Almost as if we thanked them and were going to allow that be the final fix but they took the initiative to go further.

 

Like I said before, they better not deprioritize this issue because of a few positive posts. The real reviewers have yet to get home.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Starglide

[TheHeadCapper]

Ok, I still haven't checked how much better it is, but I hope they aren't slowing down on the issue now that feedback has been positive. I still see a disconnection with cast bars and animations, even by just viewing the videos and I hope that they will continue to unveil fixes in coming patches (ie we dont have to wait too long).

 

That being said; until I feel the system is as tight as WoW, I will never stop reporting here.

 

EDIT: I really wish I had a high level character on the PTR to test the even further fix implementation mentioned in that excerpt.

 

They said this is the partial fix and the rest is still incoming.

Edited January 24, 2012 by TheHeadCapper

[TheHeadCapper]

I though the same exact thing. Well, I pretty much read your posts and say "I was just thinking that" or "I was just about to post that", so its no surprise. Sort of how it is no surprise BioWare would post in a thread of praise as opposed to the thread that lead them to understand the delays in the first place.

 

Honestly, after all the work we've put in (you more than anyone else), it is like a spit in the face...

 

Other than the dev tracker, who really cares what bioware posts. The stuff on forums in every game is always fluff. Dev tracker is what matters.

[Blackardin]

OP. Wasted alot of time there.

 

They are aware of it. They are working on it. The first in a series of fixes has gone in. It is achieving results.

 

Trust me, they have far superior techs and engineers then you working on this. ;p

[Toonasty]

Seems like its alot better the combat text is delayed but it looks like the heal triggers when it needs to.

[Xcore]

OP. Wasted alot of time there.

 

They are aware of it. They are working on it. The first in a series of fixes has gone in. It is achieving results.

 

Trust me, they have far superior techs and engineers then you working on this. ;p

 

So you think this thread and everything over the past weeks has been a waste of time here as they've already been on it and are far more knowledgeable than us anyways?

 

 

 

Thanks.

[Stejo]

OP, appreciate your efforts, but seriously, don't bother. This game has so many fundamental design flaws that even if they could somehow fix this it would still be trash. This is not the game we been looking for.

[TheHeadCapper]

So you think this thread and everything over the past weeks has been a waste of time here as they've already been on it and are far more knowledgeable than us anyways?

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Yup exactly.

[TheHeadCapper]

OP, appreciate your efforts, but seriously, don't bother. This game has so many fundamental design flaws that even if they could somehow fix this it would still be trash. This is not the game we been looking for.

 

It was already mostly fixed, and the rest are incoming, thanks for coming out though.

[Paganini]

OP. Wasted alot of time there.

 

They are aware of it. They are working on it. The first in a series of fixes has gone in. It is achieving results.

 

Trust me, they have far superior techs and engineers then you working on this. ;p

 

great mentality there

[Dunzo]

This has NOT been fixed. Abilities like "Slash" which are instant still take 0.5 seconds to do any damage to a target due to the animation taking precedent over the actual attack. This is not a glitch but a design flaw. Either make the ability a 0.5 second cast time, and not instant, or redesign abilities like this to strike instantly while not sacrificing animations. Come on Bioware, this isn't hard.

[Tewnam]

This has NOT been fixed. Abilities like "Slash" which are instant still take 0.5 seconds to do any damage to a target due to the animation taking precedent over the actual attack. This is not a glitch but a design flaw. Either make the ability a 0.5 second cast time, and not instant, or redesign abilities like this to strike instantly while not sacrificing animations. Come on Bioware, this isn't hard.

 

Just because an ability is used instantly doesn't mean the damage is applied instantly. Instant simply means no cast time, can't be interrupted, and able to be used while moving. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

[miliways]

This has NOT been fixed. Abilities like "Slash" which are instant still take 0.5 seconds to do any damage to a target due to the animation taking precedent over the actual attack. This is not a glitch but a design flaw. Either make the ability a 0.5 second cast time, and not instant, or redesign abilities like this to strike instantly while not sacrificing animations. Come on Bioware, this isn't hard.

 

They detailed like 4 or 5 different issues in the post about responsiveness and performance that they've recognized and are working on.

 

Only the first has now been deployed. And the game does seem a good bit smoother and more responsive. Its only been a couple weeks, so I'm jazzed.

 

They're clearly aware and working on it hard. Software is immensely complicated and takes time to identify, fix and test.

 

More updates are coming. Hopefully they will fix your problem