Powertech - Shield Tech 31 Point Talent is Terrible Anyone Agree?

[Spurgo]

On the other hand we have to consider that a build is intended to work with an armor SET which enhance its main feature.

 

In other words if i run a full pyro-bulldog-parakeet one I HAVE TO USE A ELIMINATOR SET.

If i run a fullshield i HAVE TO USE A COMBAT TECH SET or SUPERCOMMANDO.

 

When both the build and the set matches the build will perform at 100%.

So i think that most of the posts r too speculative to be considered.

 

BE THE DOG

BE THE BULLDOG

[ShockDevil]

I hate myself, I forgot to send to this PC a few logs and I can't finish the 31/8/2 vs 21/2/18 comparison, I'll post it in 5-6 hours.

 

But with simulation both builds are pretty similar on DPS, and 31/8/2 is a tiny bit better.

 

Reasons:

 

-Rocket Punch and Rail Shots number were overestimated on the spreadsheet versus reality. You can't make the most of every proc on a real scenario. Real Rail Shots per minute with 21/2/18 are like 20% lower than the spreadsheet estimates.

-31/8/2 hits harder than 21/2/18 with the rest of the skills (has +2% fire damage, +6% fire crit, +33% IGC damage, etc).

-The uptime of IGC (shock) was greatly overestimated for the 21/2/18, when you don't have Supercharged Ion Gas, and only 1 point in Ion Overload.

-Incendiary Missile is worst than Flame Thrower, so is only a way to make the target burn for procs, but doesn't help with real DPS. If you use both IM and FT, the number of Rail Shots get lower, as you can't Flame Burst that much.

 

I think you are spending way too much time in Excel and not enough time in the game.

 

The Parakeet is a much more versatile build than a turtle spec and is far better for raiding simply because you do not loose your ability to main tank with the best and gain the option to switch into a higher dps mode by changing cylinders.

 

Some real game observations for you:

 

- IM is only used as an opener, with TSO or when you have very low heat.

- Railshot is used every time it is up as it is our highest damaging attack bar non, its cool down resets very often as does RP so I quite often start fights with IM>RS>RP>RS>RP>RS>FB>FB>RS type rotation which is not on the same planet as a turtle rotation of Unload>RS>RP>FT>RP>HB>RS

 

- In groups and raid in particular the target is often already burning from another player thus the tank doesn't need to use IM and is more efficient with heat and dps/threat.

 

Having leveled with a full ST build until 48 I can tell you for a fact that there is no comparison with DPS between the two builds in taking out targets ofc you must have the dexterity to take advantage of a build based on CD resets.

 

I hope BW will very soon implement a combat log so we can get real performance analysis. It is amazing what lenghts players go to try and min/max even without this basic feature.

[MorningMusume]

I took a look at the burning target, and no, if you don't use Incendiary Missile you lose dps. IM is pretty good in damage/heat. Flame Burst is not, even when you include the chance to proc a Rail Shot.

 

And I don't use excel anymore, you can't do simulations on that, now I produce full combat logs based on prioritys.

 

And I'll love when they put a combat log in, we'll see the truth, and I will not have to discuss with people that seems to have 100% chance on Rocket Punch to proc a Rail Shot instead of 45%.

[Kyryck]

No one claims that. The claim is that 21/2/18 sacrifices minimal mitigation for a good increase in DPS. Reading comp fail on your part.

 

Actually, I'd suggest you stop trying to split verbal hairs to support your point. You would claim that me saying that sacrificing minimal mitigation for a good increase in dps isn't 'better' for tanking? Really? You know what one of the first signals are that somebody doesn't have a leg to stand on and knows it? When they resort to semantics to try and demonstrate that they're correct.

 

 

The only "numbers" discussed here were Empowered Tech's low overall mitigation per talent point invested. MM spat out a number that corresponds to Empowered Tech's damage reduction / damage not reduced without Empowered Tech, which is a weird variable that doesn't tell us anything. He tried to pass it off as Empowered Tech's contribution to damage reduction, but he admitted that not to be the case:

 

Did he? You're a fan of quotes, so go ahead and find that.

 

The latter half of that sentence was an obvious attempt to save face, and he offered no math in support.

 

Your complaint is that you didn't read or look at the spreadsheet? You apparently expect him to post his complete math each and every post. If you'd bothered to actually look at the spreadsheet and his other thread, you'd see that he did nothing BUT offer math to demonstrate how he came to the conclusions that are detailed.

 

 

Despite me asking the same question in nearly every post I make directed to him, he still hasn't commented on that issue. There's absolutely no indication that he accounted for the fact that only half of the attacks in the game are shieldable.

 

No indication? Other than the fact that he said it in no fewer than two of the posts he responded to? Than he gave the actual bloody numbers as to why it worked out like it did?

 

People use false statistics constantly to try to trick people into believing things. Day 1 of college statistics - statistics can be used to say anything you want them to say. You need to pay close attention to what the numbers actually represent.

 

You're right. People DO use false statistics to trick people into believing things. Much like your own quoted post down below. Of course, unlike Musame, you don't even have concrete numbers to back up what you say. You just say something and claim it as truth. Musame's posts are chock full of the actual math. Not my problem if you can't follow it or draw appropriate conclusions from it.

 

 

 

 

This "special snowflake" build is by far the most popular build on the PT forums. I haven't seen a single report of it being underclassed by a full ST build, yet you get plenty of reports to the contrary.

 

Really? The most popular build huh? Numbers to back that up? Of course not. All you have is more anecdotal 'evidence'. Funny how you're so good at pointing out imagined issues in other people making statistics not work but ignore your own issues. Statistics 101 is obviously something you didn't take at all or you'd know that everybody pulls out statistics without numbers to make up support for things they believe personally. Rather like you claiming that this dumb build is the 'most popular' and that you haven't seen a single report of it being outclassed by the full shieldtech build. You're wrong about that too, since there are numerous posts detailing how pathetic that bird build is. Of course, since you have a problem with reality and math, you claim that Musame's numbers aren't reliable.

 

Bottom line? Once the combat log comes out and the numbers are demonstrated to be absolutely in line with what Musame is posting, what's your excuse going to be then? Or will you continue to claim the math is wrong? That they nerfed things but that they used to be better, before the combat log? That it doesn't matter anyway if shieldtech is better, because it's all personal preference? The only reason that stupid build is used at all is because the idiot who made it suckered a bunch of other morons into believing that a build based on proc-fishing and gimping mitigation and other damaging abilities (not to mention taking a whole heap of worthless, unused abilities at the bottom of the pyro tree) is somehow better for tanking in PvE.

 

 

Probably not, since MM's credibility is in the tank right now, and many WZ reports indicate that 21/2/18 greatly outperforms full ST for damage (and more importantly, there hasn't been any report to the contrary). Clearly, this trend isn't due to any increased survivability (which is, by everyone's admission, slightly less than a full ST's survivability), so the discrepency must necessarily be from higher DPS.

 

His 'credibility' is only in the tank with you and people championing that stupid build. Not anybody's problem if you choose not to understand (or can't understand) his posts. Like I said before, it's not worth arguing with you or people who claim that spec is at all worthwhile. All you have are anecdotes about doing more damage, being more effective, etc. You NEVER have numbers or anything to support your case. You simply run around claiming everybody else is wrong and that the math is somehow mystically manipulated to show other things, all in an effort to disparage the special snowflake spec.

 

Like I said, math apparently isn't enough for you. It's not worth making another post about it, because you're clearly deluded about your precious build being 'da best evar' for powertechs to use. Tell you what Chuckles; once the combat log comes out we'll dredge up this post again with combat log numbers and remind everybody about this 'debate' and about how utterly foolish and illogical certain people can be.

[emptycoat]

Even the animation for it sucks, It makes a hissing noise and doesn't look very much like a blast at all. I want a huge bang and a giant explosion. right now it looks much less like a heat blast and more like a lukewarm fizzle.

[Valkenheineken]

Actually, I'd suggest you stop trying to split verbal hairs to support your point. You would claim that me saying that sacrificing minimal mitigation for a good increase in dps isn't 'better' for tanking? Really?

 

That's *exactly* what I'm claiming. Reading comp fail #1.

 

Did he? You're a fan of quotes, so go ahead and find that.

 

It's quoted within the post you quoted from me. Reading comp fail #2.

 

Your complaint is that you didn't read or look at the spreadsheet? You apparently expect him to post his complete math each and every post. If you'd bothered to actually look at the spreadsheet and his other thread, you'd see that he did nothing BUT offer math to demonstrate how he came to the conclusions that are detailed.

 

That's not at all my complaint. I've spelled them out in every single post I've made.

 

No indication? Other than the fact that he said it in no fewer than two of the posts he responded to? Than he gave the actual bloody numbers as to why it worked out like it did?

 

He has not answered the question, "Did you use the full value of shield chance*shield absorb in calculating mitigation?" Again, the question is relevant because shielding (and defense) does not work against all of the attack types, so it's disingenuous to include it as pure mitigation.

 

The "actual bloody number" he provided was [(damage taken without Empowered Tech) - (damage taken with Empowered Tech)]/(damage taken without Empowered Tech), which is an absolutely irrelevant variable to our conversation, or to most any conversation for that matter because that variable doesn't stand for anything.

 

You're right. People DO use false statistics to trick people into believing things. Much like your own quoted post down below. Of course, unlike Musame, you don't even have concrete numbers to back up what you say. You just say something and claim it as truth. Musame's posts are chock full of the actual math. Not my problem if you can't follow it or draw appropriate conclusions from it.

 

It's funny, because you're defending a calculation that MM even admitted was wrong when I called him out on it.

 

 

Really? The most popular build huh? Numbers to back that up?

 

Look at the first page of this forum.

 

Statistics 101 is obviously something you didn't take at all or you'd know that everybody pulls out statistics without numbers to make up support for things they believe personally.

 

The problem is that it works *with* numbers too by making marginally inappropriate conclusions based on a variable taken out of context. It works as a powerful advertising tool, and it clearly works very well on you.

 

Bottom line? Once the combat log comes out and the numbers are demonstrated to be absolutely in line with what Musame is posting, what's your excuse going to be then?

 

They're not out, and you have no idea what they're going to say.

 

The only reason that stupid build is used at all is because the idiot who made it suckered a bunch of other morons into believing that a build based on proc-fishing and gimping mitigation and other damaging abilities (not to mention taking a whole heap of worthless, unused abilities at the bottom of the pyro tree) is somehow better for tanking in PvE.

 

Lol. Glad to see you're being objective about this.

 

Tell you what Chuckles; once the combat log comes out we'll dredge up this post again with combat log numbers and remind everybody about this 'debate' and about how utterly foolish and illogical certain people can be.

 

Oh, you mean with comments like this?

 

The only reason that stupid build is used at all is because the idiot who made it suckered a bunch of other morons into believing that a build based on proc-fishing and gimping mitigation and other damaging abilities (not to mention taking a whole heap of worthless, unused abilities at the bottom of the pyro tree) is somehow better for tanking in PvE.

 

Yep, should be fun. See you then.

[MorningMusume]

Please, let's keep calm.

 

I don't really care about what build is best or not. I don't want to prove that 31/8/2 is better than everything. I'm just doing theorycrafting because I love it. I love to min/max, but based on math, not people opinions and preferences.

 

When I first simulated 21/2/18, it was around 12% more dps, then got to 2%, then 5%, and now is lower or the same dps. If my simulation had tell me that was 25% dps extra, I'll be 21/2/18 right now, with no doubt. Maybe I'll find a bug or a better rotation, and that happens, who knows.

 

21/2/18 has its advantages. Is more interesting to play, specially on PvP and you can do great dps with combustible gas cylinder while not tanking.

 

But you lose mitigation (specially some builds I have seen without Combust or Ion Screen), and the dps is bursty and luck-based, and seems that has no advantages over 31/8/2 in sustained dps.

 

Still is everyone choice.

[roccorossi]

I have been using the ability more and more now.. It has its uses yes.. still feels like a holy ** button though..

 

its not that this ability has its uses it does.. But it needs a little bit more.. At least some sort of AOE threat or even just single target threat.

 

The damage it does is laughable. Its only use is to vent heat period.

 

This is supposed to be the most exciting skill you get as a character..

 

I am not impressed Bioware needs to ajust this.

[Geekcheck]

/agree

 

Heat Blast is completely useless. It does pitiful damage and the venting of Heat is so meager that it isn't even worth that, but I use it b/c it's the only ability we have to manage it.

 

From what I hear almost all of the 31-point talents suck. The Assassin has the only one I know of that is worth the investment.

[MorningMusume]

I just tested for fun a non-Heat Blast rotation. Is 5% lower dps, because you can't use the other skills on CD without overheating, and you need to use 50% more Rapid Shots on the rotation for keeping the heat in check.

 

Please, use Heat Blast on cooldown unless your heat is under 15, thanks.

[sdeha]

How I see it, it is hard to argue that Heat Blast is completely useless. It does decrease the heat you have, which is good for sustainable dps and very good in certain situations.

 

However, I would argue that the skills is underwhelming. It is not the kind of a skill I would assume to get with 31 points spent in a tree.

[Synica]

One of the things with this ability is that at times I'm not sure if I've used it or not... It's a tiny projectile and makes almost no sound, especially in an Ops group, I find myself forced to look at my bar and make sure it's greyed out to ensure that, yes, I actually did use it...

 

Well, that and the fact it could use a bit of work. Either high threat generation or maybe up it to 10 heat dissipated per use. Either one would be wonderful.

[pattymcfatty]

It's kind of useful in PvE situations, but it does feel rather underwhelming, and the damage is pretty weak in PvP.

 

I'd be happy to see it with an added utility like extra threat or make it like a damage-taunt in pvp.

[tommythecat]

i always hoped that it would be a PBAOE ability, very short range high threat generating. also maybe have the combust damage reduction on it as well.

 

its not a useless ability, i just weave it into my rotation to drop some heat, but its not a great ability

 

It's funny, I actually thought that's what it was until i used it and was like... wow that's very stupid looking and disappointing.

[Randomness]

i always hoped that it would be a PBAOE ability, very short range high threat generating. also maybe have the combust damage reduction on it as well.

 

its not a useless ability, i just weave it into my rotation to drop some heat, but its not a great ability

 

If it counted as a fire attack for the numerous fire buffs, that would be nice. If it added extra threat, would be nice. If it applied combust, would also be nice (Hey, back in beta, we had a point where Flamethrower applied combust, and combust stacked twice! God I wish that was still the case, because Flamethrower is so much better than Flame Sweep for everything except combusting atm)

[Darthlemi]

It's very good. Dissipating 8 heat every 10 seconds allows you to use higher threat moves more often and not worry about overheating. Comparing talent for talent is wrong.

[Randomness]

It's very good. Dissipating 8 heat every 10 seconds allows you to use higher threat moves more often and not worry about overheating. Comparing talent for talent is wrong.

 

In truth, Shield Tech probably has the best heat dissipation, due to Heat Blast and Shield Vents. Even advanced prototype can't beat that (Though the outright 8 per 6 sec isn't bad...)

[oakamp]

So... The BH does not look very epic compared to the SI Tank... Whats up with that? I dont even think its worth a point ..

 

What yall think ?

AGREE, powertech doesnt even have a long term CC,

while other tank has?

and dps powertech is worst,

have sux cc compare to other dps class.

*** is that.

[Tommyjc]

Just my observation, but it feels like an off-tank skill to me. A properly spec'd MT will get plenty of heat dump from Shield Vents. If you find yourself as an off-tank having to dps and not really getting beat on, Heat Blast would replace the dump you would get from Shield Vents. Not sure if this was BW's intent, but it seems to have worked out this way. If they added the "high threat" to Heat Blast, it wouldn't be effective in this way any more. Don't want to be pulling threat off the MT just to vent some heat.

 

So I guess it would depend on what role you find yourself playing most often.

 

There's a grand total of one fight where you need an offtank, so if that's their intention, they need to be smacked upside the head

[Xneco]

It really should have "generates high threat" then it would be quite acceptable for the top of the tank tree.

 

 

I'd prefer a damage boost instead of threat, all things considered. Double it's damage instead of adding a threat modifier...

[Throwa-fett]

Ive tanked for a long time in wow and other mmo's and Im a little disappointed with the shield tech tree. Too many things feel like an after thought and it doesn't have the "OMG" feel that I get from other trees. First of all, fix heatblast. It's freakin lame. If we need more heat vent, put in the tree in other places NOT AS A MAIN TOP ABILITY! This should be like a dump oil slick and light the ground on fire with a flame sweep, to create a Threat/dot hellfire, everybody near you is burning to death, effect or something. Something so cool and unique, that everyone wants to play that spec just because of that ability.

Make the Ion sphere more amazing. More electricity or something that lets me know that it's working, I can't even see it or tell that it's even doing anything most of the time. again fail.

Oil slick, please I feel like I just had a diarreah attack down my leg.

 

I think it has some great potential but it needs some TLC. Remember tanking isn't about DPS, it's about holding threat, damage mitigation and staying alive abilities and talents, and PLAYABILITY.

Listen and please understand this cause it's crucial - If I'm doing my job and having fun while doing it, you've captured the essence of the tank. DPS only matters if it's needed to accomplish this. Too many times it feels like a dps class mind is trying to capture the essence of the tank.

[maschovy]

It works..that is all I have to say on the subject..

 

I agree with this. Since PTs measure damage in terms of DPH (damage per heat) instead of DPS, anything that dumps heat will result in more damage on a properly played PT. A talent that dumps heat while simultaneously doing damage is great.

 

I've seen a few messages where people say something like, "I don't need to dump heat, I'm usually at the bottom end of the heat meter anyhow". If you find yourself consistently at the bottom end of the heat meter, you are doing something wrong. You should always be at 30 - 50% heat. If not, you aren't doing as much damage as you could be.

[Umpire]

Far from it. Heat is a new mechanic, so maybe it's fuzzy for some people but

 

This is a spell that GIVES you mana(less heat) while DEALING DAMAGE. That's the opposite of how it usually works. In other words, very good. How can one hate on it?

[cdstephen]

Far from it. Heat is a new mechanic, so maybe it's fuzzy for some people but

 

This is a spell that GIVES you mana(less heat) while DEALING DAMAGE. That's the opposite of how it usually works. In other words, very good. How can one hate on it?

 

Because Shield Techs' priority involve maintaining threat and reducing damage taken.

 

Heat blast gives you better heat management, which although is nice, is not a top priority as heat management isn't an issue for players that are paying attention.

[Throwa-fett]

The problem is that a lot of you guys are still in the "DPS" frame of mind. You need to get into a "Tanking" frame of mind. Those of you who are making comments like, " It allows you to do more dps, or it makes me more competitive with the mercs or something, you are not getting the picture.

A heat dump as a 31 ability with no animation is an after thought for bioware. Do you use it, sure but it is not a necessary or sweet-looking ability if they had built the tree better.