No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ryancwn]

Someone who "needs outside the box" and someone who "breaks the loot rules" are the same person, IF you established rules beforehand.

 

 

But yes, I get what you're saying. If you do not establish loot rules beforehand, you shouldn't /ignore and blacklist someone for needing something you think they don't deserve.

 

I'm not concern about blacklist and ignore. I'm more concern about spreading it and labeling other as something they aren't just because they have differing opinion on loot.

[DariuszPol]

My brother write down nicknames. I asked him why since he have this 'friend' panel. He told me that this is a list of idiots that steal gear (roll need when they should not). And he will never take them into party.

 

And he use my BH to do Flashpoints. Sometimes he take low lvl people, do their flashpoint and roll pass on items. Always with 1-2 people in party. He told me that he do that because Ilium is empty and warzone is all about boring and stupid hutball.

 

Just write down idiots on some paper or add them to ignore list. Spread that list in your guild. Soon they will have hard time to find any party or guild.

[TucoR]

You play the game?You roll the dice,you don't watch ppl play period.

If there"s any Rule ,it should be in the game mechanics not left at Ppl appreciation

Courtesy?What?It's a game try your luck and that's it.If it's not your turn,eventually you'll get what you want,iit's a minigame nothing more.The more you play,the more you get.

If the rule is not in the game mechanics,it's nowhere,it's a game in the game ,play it or don't but quit QQ,this is ridiculous and embarrassing for other players.

Courtesy is something you use with a young "mademoiselle" and all and all,not this BS,seriously.

I don't need anything,really,I just play the damn game ...or I don't.

Edited January 27, 2012 by TucoR

[Sai-to]

Do you establish with a girl on the first date that you won't **** her? No. It's assumed you won't because we try to pretend we are decent people. So why should every group have to spell out what should be assumed by all? Unless it's a special situation, then the rules are indeed in effect. Saying it's not your fault that you needed an item you cannot use or is not for you because nobody told you that you shouldn't do that is a bs cop out.

 

 

Wow, way to use an extremely bad analogy.

 

 

The difference is, there is established social etiquette and REAL consequences for breaking social contracts.

 

There are no solid, established rules for looting. You are making the mistake that your view of looting is and should be the default assumption of all people.

 

Also, even if something was assumed to be "wrong", being the internet, there aren't any real consequences for breaking rule... except for giving the ninja a bad rep and never grouping with them again.

 

 

If you don't establish rules, you can't blame the person for Needing something they can use. But, if you really want to have iron-fisted control... always make sure you're the group leader. Always roll last, and if someone Needs something you don't think they should, then kick them.

 

 

P.S. Btw, there is plenty of sex that happens on first dates without complaint.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Sai-to

[haXwk]

I might just start clicking need on everything in order to spite you people. This is pathetic.

[ryancwn]

I might just start clicking need on everything in order to spite you people. This is pathetic.

 

So, you spite those ppl who roll needs on thing they need by rolling on stuff you don't need? Whos pathetic? The one who roll need because he needs it (with different opnion than yours) or those who roll need on something he don't think he need but rolling need to spite ppl?

[Sufran]

I might just start clicking need on everything in order to spite you people. This is pathetic.

Personally, I think they should disclose their character names and servers if they’re so obsessed with sovereignty and equal right to choice. Similarly, they should demonstrate the logic of their philosophy by pre-emptively telling groups why they’re going to roll Need on everything or why they think it’s legitimate. If no natural, convention-based consensus exists for the vast majority then they have nothing to worry about, right? If rules aren’t expected to be implicit by most players then there’s very little probability that they’ll be instantaneously kicked and avoided.

 

Conversely, I’ll choose to believe that their mentality would have deleterious effects on civil social interactions if it became dominant and that their attitude to distribution would result in overall inefficiency via the considerable luck or excessive repetition needed in order for players to get items that make a quantifiable difference to their capacity to perform. It’ll be fun playing on servers where spontaneous group formation is in the minority because people are protecting themselves from such attitudes via an even greater proportion of exclusive guild runs or via the PvP system due to the inability of others to roll there.

 

I’m sure players would love renewing their subscriptions or joining the game when they have to deal with such a Hobbean state and Machiavellian mechanics constantly. However, who cares as long as it's procedurally fair, substantive fairness is irrelevant. If the game begins to have issues with population then it's Bioware's fault for not changing the mechanics, not ours for failing to create a convention-based social contract.

 

In fact, I'm going to research the mechanics that exist in future MMO releases and find one where I don't have deal with such insulated, compartmentalised thinking. I just need to find a Massive Multiplayer Online game wherein I never need to think of utility and efficiency ever and there are no opportunities for others to hide behind procedural mechanisms as a reason for neglecting to take such factors into account. How hard can that be? It's not like some aspect(s) of every game would, by default, be reliant on such considerations, is it?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Sufran

[Tourette]

This is why so many players do not pug. With more players not joining pugs, it therefore becomes harder for pugs to form until only ninjas will be in pugs ninja'ing items from each other.

[Technotica]

Wow, way to use an extremely bad analogy.

 

 

The difference is, there is established social etiquette and REAL consequences for breaking social contracts.

 

 

I have one question, do you not do bad things because of the consequences or because they are bad?

 

Would murder be alright if there were no real consequences for doing it?

 

Is it ok to harass someone on the internet because there are no real consequences for doing it?

 

Or is it just ok to hurt someone if you consider the hurtfulness of your action inconsequential?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Technotica

[pokstair]

This is why I love my server so much - even though people may be tools and do really bad at playing their class / role, they have some sense of decency not to roll their face into the Need button.

 

I do admit I've resisted the urge to need on that +41 power crystal on HM KuS though (dropping in a Sith Warr itemised saber when I'm a Sorc). That thing is pure win. Just hope I can get mine to drop soon...

 

"Other MMOs" have had to install proper loot mechanics to deal with this issue, I wouldnt be surprised if BW had to, too.

 

Sufran, good luck with that. In a world of Internet anonymity and in situations where very little or no punishment is issued for breaking social contracts for one's own marginal gain, this kind of behavior is to be expected.

Edited January 27, 2012 by pokstair

[ispanolfw]

This is why I love my server so much - even though people may be tools and do really bad at playing their class / role, they have some sense of decency not to roll their face into the Need button.

 

I do admit I've resisted the urge to need on that +41 power crystal on HM KuS though (dropping in a Sith Warr itemised saber when I'm a Sorc). That thing is pure win. Just hope I can get mine to drop soon...

 

"Other MMOs" have had to install proper loot mechanics to deal with this issue, I wouldnt be surprised if BW had to, too.

 

Sufran, good luck with that. In a world of Internet anonymity and in situations where very little or no punishment is issued for breaking social contracts for one's own marginal gain, this kind of behavior is to be expected.

 

Firstly this isn't directed at you, but most of the people in this thread.

 

And that's the thing, majority or minority, you using "proper" here is just opinion. The system is the way it is because if they try to put in something like, say, only IA's can need on Cunning gear, it opens up the option for issues in the other direction. IE some IA thinks a Marauder shouldn't be allowed to have a piece for looks, even if said IA has it already, so he hits need to prevent him from getting it. It can really go both ways with people wanting to enforce their way, be they the majority or not. The system as it is, is just about as fair as you can get.

 

I've understood everyone's views here. I may not agree with them, or follow them myself, but I understand them. You have the people who will roll need on EVERYTHING, even things with a class requirement on them that isn't their own. Then you have the people who feel that if it has their stats they should pretty much get rights to it. And then you have the many views in between.

 

Regardless of your opinions and views, the system lets you need on something if you want it. You were in the instance, you helped down the boss or encounter that caused the item to drop. No one side gets more of a chance at the item, regardless of your view. And this is why many say make the rules before hand. Trying to FORCE people to conform to YOUR view, no matter what that view is, makes you as bad or worse than the people you claim to be in the wrong.

 

Sure it's "nice" to pass if you know the other person will get more benefit. I do this almost all the time even, just part of who I am. But you know, I'm not right. This is my view, this is how I do things. But in NO way is it right. But it's not wrong either. Your opinions are your own, mine are mine, random Joe1's opinions are his. None are wrong, none are right. You don't like it, leave or kick if you so choose, but stop pushing your view over someone elses.

 

And I say this all because the system is just about as fair as it can be, ie you all help kill the boss, you all have a chance at whatever drops. Anything beyond that is up to interpretation, and as such should be decided ahead of time by the group. Those who disagree either leave, get kicked or lie about it and do what they want anyways. And if the latter, it's up to you to do what you will. But pushing your opinions, much like some people push religion, should never be tolerated.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ispanolfw

[sjmc]

In which game that had modifiable gear did the "unwritten rules" about the status of modified gear under Need Before Greed develop?

 

In which game that had companions which required regular gear upgrades did the "unwritten rules" about the status of companions under Need Before Greed develop?

[DarthKhaos]

This is the dire prediction that everyone who opposes people rolling on a piece for uncommon reasons makes. The thing to think about is this: is that such a bad idea? If you have everyone rolling "need" on something, the end result is that everyone has a flat equal chance to acquire something, which goes in perfect keeping with the fact that everyone contributed in downing a given boss to begin with.

 

The loot drama arises because of disparities in loot priorities facilitated by the current NBG system. You have some people who choose Greed for a particular reason, who then get upset when someone else chooses Need for a reason they don't agree with. In short, they're upset because they had expectations of behavior that someone else didn't meet.

 

You have people rolling Need on things that upsets others rolling Need for a different reason, or just for a reason they didn't approve of. Upset that the chance of their getting a desired item has decreased when they favored behavior that would have given them a better chance of acquisition, they petition BioWare via these forums to make it so it can't happen.

 

If you simply move to either an actual Roll/Pass system, or one that's approximated via everyone choosing the same priority level on their loot roll, no one has room to complain. Everyone has a flat equal chance of getting any given piece.

 

Nothing could be more fair or impartial.

 

Wow... Just wow... I wonder why you even interacting with people. Seriously.

[AsheraII]

If the loot rule is Need before Greed, then you operate by the rules of Need before Greed.

 

If you're rolling Need on an orange item with the intent of stripping the mods out of it and vendor trashing them, then congratulations, you officially don't understand how NBG has worked for years now, and you've just served to undermine the system.

Wrong, since the system never ever considered the existence of something like orange gear. Or companions for that matter. The "old NBG system" as you were used to from other games is simply incomplete, it cannot handle orange gear properly, so it needs to be expanded.

 

Next case, same orange jacket:

The IA grabs the jacket, puts it on as is, and 2 levels down the road finds another jacket, so vendorizes the orange jacket and wears the new one.

Or maybe.. The IA rips the mods out of the jacket and places them in the one he's already wearing, destroying the jacket found!

Or just imagine, the IA is about to ding, and two trashpacks down the hall he replaces the jacket again with another one he got from Treasure Hunting the other day, or replaces the mods with new mods he had bought/crafted in preperation of his new level.

The Marauder on the other hand, placed the mods into the gear of some companion and replaced them with mods fitting his own class. He is so happy with the looks he got from the jacket, that he keeps upgrading it, replacing the mods with better ones every time he levels, all the way to level cap and beyond.

 

Now, who made the best use of that jacket?

 

 

Which is, of course, your choice, but don't pretend you aren't doing just that. Or that you're some logical crusader who is justified in his actions because he is somehow campaigning to make the loot system fairer for everyone.

The lootsystem is fair as it is. It's just sad that some people don't see the true potential of orange gear and get a sense of exclusivity based on a few easy to replace modifications on said gear.

 

Be proud of destroying the system that others are following for everyone's mutual benefit. Wear that badge with...pride?

 

Or...whatever you want to call it...

Nothing's destroyed. A Marauder simply has as much right to roll on an orange piece of medium armor as an IA.

 

You rolled Need on that item, with all of its mods inside it, with the intention of selling those mods instead of using them,

Well, or relay them to a companion, in which case they'd still be used. Since, sadly those mods are BOUND, so the Marauder simply can't strip the mods and give them to the IA while putting in his own mods. But, those mods are easy to get elsewhere anyway, so the IA won't be gimped without them anyway. He can still get them, just has to put some effort into it.

 

when another player in your group would've immediately put them to use.

Ofcourse, that player could've gotten those exact same mods in advance already. But no, he was lazy and entered the flashpoint undergeared!

 

That's a Greed situation not Need one, and you've just hurt your team's effectiveness because of it.

The thing you fail to see, is that Orange gear is all about customization, it's not about stats at all. It's need/greed for customization, if you enter the flashpoint without very comparable mods in your gear already, you were simply slacking.

 

The fact that SWTOR's orange/custom item system may be unique from other MMOs changes nothing.

But that's the whole point, it does. You can get your stats everywhere else. Should've gotten them already actually.

 

Cosmetics are never a matter of Need when the cosmetic in question carries functional modifications with stats that better benefit another member of your party, which you intend to throw away in order to replace with your own.

You really like to dramatize it with the "throwing away" thing, don't you? They can be taken out and reused on companions.

 

...Of course since NBG is an honor system, you can freely choose to throw honor to the wind and claim Need on everything, thus destroying the entire purpose of the system. This act however, has been a top cause of smacktards getting booted out of top raiding guilds since vanilla WoW.

In WoW you simply can't mod your gear. So a rogue rolling on a druid piece was indeed stupid. But that is simply not the case here with ORANGE gear.

Orange gear is ONLY for customization

 

NBG is NBG. Follow it, or don't follow it. If you don't follow it, then expect to get an earful from the rest of your teammates and the community at large who do follow it.

For white, green, blue, or even purple gear? Yes. For ORANGE leveling gear? Yes, but it added another layer.

For orange leveling gear: if the armor class is right, you can need. If the armor class isn't right, you may still greed.

NBG is still functional, it's just a little deeper than how it worked in old games like WoW. The standard WoW mindset simply doesn't apply to TOR. TOR is a different (and way better!) game than that.

Edited January 27, 2012 by AsheraII

[Jedi_Wannabe]

This is why so many players do not pug. With more players not joining pugs, it therefore becomes harder for pugs to form until only ninjas will be in pugs ninja'ing items from each other.

 

And then they'll think "everyone does it".

[Furiso]

Getting yourself worked up about loot is pointless & petty.

Basically adopt the stance that everyone has equal right to pick "need" and you will be a happier person.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Wrong, since the system never ever considered the existence of something like orange gear. Or companions for that matter. The "old NBG system" as you were used to from other games is simply incomplete, it cannot handle orange gear properly, so it needs to be expanded.

 

Next case, same orange jacket:

The IA grabs the jacket, puts it on as is, and 2 levels down the road finds another jacket, so vendorizes the orange jacket and wears the new one.

Or maybe.. The IA rips the mods out of the jacket and places them in the one he's already wearing, destroying the jacket found!

Or just imagine, the IA is about to ding, and two trashpacks down the hall he replaces the jacket again with another one he got from Treasure Hunting the other day, or replaces the mods with new mods he had bought/crafted in preperation of his new level.

The Marauder on the other hand, placed the mods into the gear of some companion and replaced them with mods fitting his own class. He is so happy with the looks he got from the jacket, that he keeps upgrading it, replacing the mods with better ones every time he levels, all the way to level cap and beyond.

 

Now, who made the best use of that jacket?

 

 

 

The lootsystem is fair as it is. It's just sad that some people don't see the true potential of orange gear and get a sense of exclusivity based on a few easy to replace modifications on said gear.

 

 

Nothing's destroyed. A Marauder simply has as much right to roll on an orange piece of medium armor as an IA.

 

 

Well, or relay them to a companion, in which case they'd still be used. Since, sadly those mods are BOUND, so the Marauder simply can't strip the mods and give them to the IA while putting in his own mods. But, those mods are easy to get elsewhere anyway, so the IA won't be gimped without them anyway. He can still get them, just has to put some effort into it.

 

 

Ofcourse, that player could've gotten those exact same mods in advance already. But no, he was lazy and entered the flashpoint undergeared!

 

 

The thing you fail to see, is that Orange gear is all about customization, it's not about stats at all. It's need/greed for customization, if you enter the flashpoint without very comparable mods in your gear already, you were simply slacking.

 

 

But that's the whole point, it does. You can get your stats everywhere else. Should've gotten them already actually.

 

 

You really like to dramatize it with the "throwing away" thing, don't you? They can be taken out and reused on companions.

 

 

In WoW you simply can't mod your gear. So a rogue rolling on a druid piece was indeed stupid. But that is simply not the case here with ORANGE gear.

Orange gear is ONLY for customization

 

 

For white, green, blue, or even purple gear? Yes. For ORANGE leveling gear? Yes, but it added another layer.

For orange leveling gear: if the armor class is right, you can need. If the armor class isn't right, you may still greed.

NBG is still functional, it's just a little deeper than how it worked in old games like WoW. The standard WoW mindset simply doesn't apply to TOR. TOR is a different (and way better!) game than that.

 

The old system from other games, certainly took into account alts, off-specs, and for some games, cosmetic appearance. The established system does take into account Needing for an item that isn't an immediate upgrade to your class as you were performing when the item dropped. Need is for upgrades to the character, class and role you were playing at the time the item dropped. exceptions to this need to be mentioned ahead of time. There is no reason to make a special adjustment to that for orange items.

 

Also, orange gear is not all about customization. To some it is. To some it is just stats like any other piece of gear. To some it is both. The easiest thing to do is treat it as one big piece until BW makes it drop in separate pieces so people can roll on those pieces separately. Or they might make it so the winner can strip the mods and trade them to a more deserving member of the group. Until then it's one piece.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Getting yourself worked up about loot is pointless & petty.

Basically adopt the stance that everyone has equal right to pick "need" and you will be a happier person.

 

I prefer the stance that it's better to help everyone get the gear that makes them a more effective group member. I can roll Need on gear meant for other classes, but I don't because I'm not selfish, self centered, or antisocial. I want everyone to get the gear that makes them more effective in the group, even if I never group with them again. If I'm with someone who uses the same gear that I do, and I win all of it, I usually volunteer to run the instance again and again to get them their gear, even if I don't know them.

[Blazehound]

This is why it's good to be in a guild with people that aren't void of brain function. I hate running FPs with strangers on Jung Ma.

 

This.

 

Go into flashpoint, get destroyed because one person attacks a boss before anyone is ready, then refuses to accept blame or do anything differently.

[Galbatorrix]

Wrong! If I say I need it, I need it. The rest is none of your business. You get a roll, I get a roll. That's fair.

 

What you are stating as fact, which is false, is that you should be allowed to sway my choice of how I roll to benefit you. How greedy is that !

 

 

All you're doing is cheating the system. I guess Bioware didn't realize that they had to restrict the players so much so they'd actually play well with others. If you're needing on the "Operative's Jacket" as a Marauder because it's "pretty", then you're cheating the system, plain and simple. Bioware told you who the piece was created for by naming it appropriately and yet you still try to use backwards logic to justify your loot whoring. Bioware shouldn't have to make additional rules to police us, but thanks to people like you, it will eventually happen. Most likely, you'll only be able to need gear with your primary stats. The bad thing about this is that you'll no longer be able to roll on that AIM piece that the trooper doesn't need for your companion. So, in essence, you're going to ruin a good thing. Good job loot whore. Good job.

[kirorx]

ROLLING IS A GAMBLE IF YOU DON'T WIN, TRY AGAIN.

 

People can roll on whatever they want, they have grouped with you and completed the same flash point you did.

 

How someone wants to spend or use there winings has no affect on you. I dont get why people insist on getting upset over something so trivial, frankly what is FAIR is FAIR.,

 

You got no right telling people what they can roll on.

[Umbral]

It's laughable that people think that in this era of the internet they can "teach" others proper etiquette in online games. The utter naivete, or just plain stupidity, of that belief is actually hilarious.

 

It's like the naivete, or plain stupidity, of people that believe that some kind of social pressure can be better brought to bear with no cross-server LFG tool.

 

If the game continues to allow players to roll on blue and above items that their player character can't use in FPs, then this will continue to be a major point of controversy. Well, for those very few that are managing to see the group oriented content that is.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Umbral

[Rollcageuk]

I have a simple way of dealing with this:-

1. i make sure I always select last on an item. If anyone selects Need and they personally cannot or should not be be rolling on it, I will immediately question whether they are Ninjas, and then immediately select Need out of spite.

If i win, and another valid player can have the item i will give it to them(if not BOP).

whatever happens, the ninja in question gets kicked immediately.

 

2. If you want for disassemble, then select the approriate button, not need.

 

3. If you want for a companion, you should ask first, if everyone else just greeds it, then personally i'm happy your companion gets it. But if another player legitametly needs an items for themselves, your companion comes 2nd behind them.

 

I always broadcast these rules in /party before i start any run.

[Galbatorrix]

ROLLING IS A GAMBLE IF YOU DON'T WIN, TRY AGAIN.

 

People can roll on whatever they want, they have grouped with you and completed the same flash point you did.

 

How someone wants to spend or use there winings has no affect on you. I dont get why people insist on getting upset over something so trivial, frankly what is FAIR is FAIR.,

 

You got no right telling people what they can roll on.

 

 

 

If it's fair to roll on items that your class can't use, then it's fair for me to call that guy out on it and blast him in gen chat. FAIR is FAIR. If you want to loot whore and roll on items that were meant for another class in the group, don't complain when you get called out on it.

[Xabana]

I prefer the stance that it's better to help everyone get the gear that makes them a more effective group member. I can roll Need on gear meant for other classes, but I don't because I'm not selfish, self centered, or antisocial. I want everyone to get the gear that makes them more effective in the group, even if I never group with them again. If I'm with someone who uses the same gear that I do, and I win all of it, I usually volunteer to run the instance again and again to get them their gear, even if I don't know them.

 

 

You, sir, are someone I like to play the game with.

 

Kudos and cheers.