Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Zandilar]

Came across this and had to quote, cuz I thought the same thing. Realistically speaking, some characters are straight, some are gay. I loved the lesbian romance option with Juhani in KotOR, but I don't feel that having a lesbian romance option for Bastilla would have had the same weight. It makes more sense if some characters are straight, some are gay, some are bi, etc.

 

Just a personal opinion

 

And here's my personal opinion in return...

 

I wrote some KotOR fan fiction at the time (it never got finished) which was F!Revan/Bastila. I could totally see subtext* in the game, which is why I wrote it. Especially all that business with the force bond.

 

*The subtext, I might add, is the result of... not lazy design, but certainly time-saving/cost-cutting design. Some of the lines for F!Revan/Bastila friendship were the same as lines from M!Revan/Bastila romance, so the way they were voiced and exactly what was said was very suggestive of a more intimate/deeper set of feelings between F!Revan and Bastila. Bioware has done this in other games as well, including SWTOR. HOW the subtext ended up in the game is beside the point, though, the point is that it is there for anyone to see.

[Ayslinn_Iduviel]

Nah, we need more Rakghouls.

 

Indeed *_*

 

By the way, i don't think they're taking seriously all the subscription threats, i guess that BW have already covered and MUCH MORE the expenses for the game and already done its lucrative profit with preorder and first month subscriptions.

 

For me it's like seeing another glass picture of the past: player who love story immersion, Roleplay, dense atmosphere left in the corner in favor of real NERDS who pay the month just to grind over and over and get ONE EPIC PIECE of armor better than the guild mate, or just to give 0,0000001% more damage in PvP and taunt others with it.

 

So people, if they do not add same gender romance option what they can lose? AT BEST some hundreds subscription?

 

Better to add more rakghouls and grinding missions so WoWer and other Nerds can enjoy the content.

[Rayla_Felana]

Indeed *_*

 

By the way, i don't think they're taking seriously all the subscription threats, i guess that BW have already covered and MUCH MORE the expenses for the game and already done its lucrative profit with preorder and first month subscriptions.

 

For me it's like seeing another glass picture of the past: player who love story immersion, Roleplay, dense atmosphere left in the corner in favor of real NERDS who pay the month just to grind over and over and get ONE EPIC PIECE of armor better than the guild mate, or just to give 0,0000001% more damage in PvP and taunt others with it.

 

So people, if they do not add same gender romance option what they can lose? AT BEST some hundreds subscription?

 

Better to add more rakghouls and grinding missions so WoWer and other Nerds can enjoy the content.

 

They've already been treating the PvP and PvE crowd as royalty as it is.

[Tamaranis]

I've got echo the sentiment that we're not going to see 16 new, gay companion characters added to the game. That's a huge amount of content. Too much to be coming along with anything else. It'd be a stand-alone update.

 

And from what we've seen so far, I doubt that they're willing to accept the backlash that would come from everyone in a new content update being gay.

 

I've also got to echo the sentiment that some characters are straight, some are gay, some are bi, and they should be written as such in an ideal world. There seems to be a lot of pining over Corso going on, but I have problems accepting that Corso's mental hang ups regarding harming/protecting women aren't grounded in his sexualtiy somewhere.

 

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world and even Bioware doesn't have infinite resources. As Zandilar pointed out, there's some subtext present with some characters as a result of their having a single script for dealing with both a male or a female PC. A lot of people seem to feel like there's a tension between Corso and their male smuggler.

 

So while hitting a switch to make some or all of the currently romanceable characters bisexual isn't really an ideal solution, the problems with that solution are already manifest in game. Might as well.

[Jenovan]

I actually got my hopes up at the end of Balmora on my IA Sniper.

Well, the end of the Sniper story line there any way.

 

Just as you leave, if you mouse over the guy you were under cover with, you will/would see that you can talk to him one last time. It's on the virge of being flirtatious. And you actually ask him to go with you. He sais he wishes he could but can't, he has responsabilities. (paraphrased of course), But not only did I think for just a brief moment that I was actually going to get a second companion earlier than I thought, but a SS romance option.

 

I personally stear clear of all OS flirt conversations with him, and always will. I'll drop a quest line if I have to. Only because that's not how I think of this character, and how I want to play him.

 

I too am waiting almost impatiently for the SS romance options to finally go live.

 

How I'd want it implimented for my IA? I'd want to meet up with that NPC on another planet, have him say something to the effect that his responsibilities on Balmora are finished, and ask if I still want him to come along. And let the story unfold from there.

I think it would fit the story arch of a SS romance for IA quite well.

 

You are not the only one playing a male IA who was saddened by Sanju Pyne. :< I watched my friend play through the Balmorra arc, and while the f!IA can apparently flirt with the very friendly Sanju, the m!IA (of course) can't... but all the not-explicitly-flirt dialog is, I would bet, the same, leaving you with an NPC who seems to like you and look up to you. IIRC, Kaliyo remarks that he's cute, and at (at least) one point seems to needle the IA in such a way that seems to imply an attraction on one or both sides.

 

We missed out on the final conversation mentioned above -- I'll pass this along so my friend can see it, but wow, yeah. Unless Sanju specifically says something in [flirt] situations that could only apply to a woman, he'd be a prime example of simply opening up the [flirt] options with non-companion NPCs to both genders. Even without that capability, all the implications are already there.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jenovan

[Suaine]

There seems to be a lot of pining over Corso going on, but I have problems accepting that Corso's mental hang ups regarding harming/protecting women aren't grounded in his sexualtiy somewhere.

 

His upbringing, certainly. His sexuality? I've got a hard time believing that. I was taught that men should never hit women and I'm sure so was he and that's an idea born from a benevolent sexism particularly prevalent in areas as Corso's pseudo-South. Does this same upbringing inform his sexuality in some way? I would bet it does. I can just imagine the confusion he must feel when wondering whether to treat *any* of the Smugglers like a lady, more so when it's a dude.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some diversity so we have gay, straight and bi companions and NPCs, but it seems both easier and in many ways more fair if the choices we have for the player character are catering to them in their own bubble universe - the NPCs themselves would be straight in one alternate universe, gay in another. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're all bisexual, just that the version we come across as players is compatible.

 

Doesn't really need to be "realistic" in a global sense. Everyone gets to choose, I thought that was what the game wanted to accomplish. More choices for all.

[stuffystuffs]

I've got echo the sentiment that we're not going to see 16 new, gay companion characters added to the game. That's a huge amount of content. Too much to be coming along with anything else. It'd be a stand-alone update.

 

I could see it in a large expansion. Plus, the companions added wouldn't be gay but 'bisexual' or open to both genders...so everyone could use the new romance content.

 

I've also got to echo the sentiment that some characters are straight, some are gay, some are bi, and they should be written as such in an ideal world.

 

I'm not sure why people get hung up on 'hero sexual' companions when the game allows you to drastically alter a companion's appearance or turn them to the dark side at your whim.

[Tamaranis]

...but it seems both easier and in many ways more fair if the choices we have for the player character are catering to them in their own bubble universe - the NPCs themselves would be straight in one alternate universe, gay in another. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're all bisexual, just that the version we come across as players is compatible.

 

I think that works well for most situations, but for some characters with specific background elements or personality traits, it might not line up nicely. I think Corso's an example where it stretches things.

 

But I do agree that given the situation, it's the best solution. This stuff should have been in at launch, and so it's one of those situations where a decent response now is better than a great one at some point in the future.

[Chrisalios]

In thoughts I believe what will happen is instead of adding new conversations or reseting current companion conversations; they will just add new companions with the options to be romanced in same gender, then again, the cheapest way would be to reset companion speeches.

 

I really just wish the mods in these forums would give another answer other than something like: This topic has run it's course, so we'll be closing this thread. (Then below it the same quote from whichever developer said it would be a post-launch feature).

It's not that I mind them closing a thread gone awfully wrong with haters but it would be nice if they could give us more inside info on their intentions for this, as in answer at least 1 or 2 of the most common questions regarding SGRs cause over here I feel that since they always use the same quote to answer us, then they might just not care about it at all.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Chrisalios

[Raiellyn]

I could see it in a large expansion. Plus, the companions added wouldn't be gay but 'bisexual' or open to both genders...so everyone could use the new romance content.

 

The problem I see with that, though, is if they don't open up the current companions to s/s romance... The LGBT community is being forced to share all of its content, while heterosexuals get their own exclusive content from the beginning.

 

It's an all-or-nothing scenario, really. Either make them all hero-sexual (I do so love that term, by the way. ), or make every single new companion exclusively gay down-the-line. Current romances are sitting at... 20, I think? Too lazy to count. Anyway, to get one male and female for each class, that is 16 companions, like was earlier said.

 

But even *that* would be unequal, beyond the obvious 16 < 20. The expansion would raise the level cap to what? 60? 70? The gay companions would get less development than a lot of the current cast, just by the length you actually have them.

 

I still stand that hero-sexual is the way to go here.

[Suaine]

I think that works well for most situations, but for some characters with specific background elements or personality traits, it might not line up nicely. I think Corso's an example where it stretches things.

 

But I do agree that given the situation, it's the best solution. This stuff should have been in at launch, and so it's one of those situations where a decent response now is better than a great one at some point in the future.

 

I'd argue that specific background info that would make it seem odd wouldn't have to necessarily be present for both, but a lot of stuff is really already compatible.

 

Speaking of Corso,

the fact that he was once engaged to a woman doesn't come up for a male Smuggler, but even when he tells the female Smuggler it sounds like a thing he was supposed to do instead of one he wanted to do. Honestly, it sounds perfect for a guy who let society and his family influence him when it came to these decisions - who gets engaged to a girl he doesn't love? Someone who may not be attracted to them. That he then runs into a woman who defies all his ingrained gender stereotypes and falls for her only supports that he is hardly straight, but rather Smuggler-sexual.

 

 

Sorry for the spoiler-y tangent, I and my gay Smuggler have thought about this a lot. There are diagrams.

 

But yes, I do agree with you. Give it to us now and think of even better stuff for future content updates. Don't let us wait forever!

[Krayna]

I have seen alot of ill will in this posting on both sides. This will always be a topic of debate and invoke strong feelings. Insults either way do not accomplish anything. Now saying that I would like to chime in and what I feel is reasonable.

 

I would like to see them at least say something. First and foremost even if its something along the line of we are not sure how we are implementing it. The limbo is making people not play or hold off playing certain characters and that is ruining alot of fun for people.

 

Now if they have started on something along the line of making current romancable characters bi it is alot more then just changing out a few pronouns and throwing a switch. There is tons of lines they would need to bring the voice actors in for to rehash or change the context to make sense in a same gender relationship. They would have to do this all at once as they cant make one character bi and no others for a while.

 

So they are at the mercy of i think its 18 different voice actors maybe 19. And then all the flirt options that is going to be a huge task. Also if you have a bi option there is alot of possible love triangles that they would have to factor in. Just alot of things that do not make sense in just changing a pronoun.

 

Not only that but there is kissing cut scene animation. There is 4 different heights of characters and they have to go though and make sure that the different heights work right with scenes where they kiss/hug etc. Nothing looks as bad as what should be 2 people kissing but its one person kissing a forehead while the other is kissing the neck.

 

Then on top of that any game like this suffers from the domino effect. If you make a change somewhere it can totally break something elsewhere.

 

I would just like to say to those that don't want characters to be bi is this. This game was meant for people to live THEIR adventure. If a person wants to romance a person of the same gender it shouldn't hurt you.

 

Also those of you that have quit because of this. I am sorry that you have but Bioware knows of this issue and has apologized. The one thing they do not want to do is make any promises to you that they are unable to keep. Until they know for sure what and when they will not tell you what their plans are. As i said earlier I would like a heads up but if they ARE working on something they are not going to promise you content then not be able to back it up.

 

So what i would ask is that people please keep an open mind about this. And second if you are one that wants SSR's in game stay with the game, support it, canceling your subscription and leaving is not helping. I know Bioware made a mistake by not having them in at launch but there is alot of wonderful content to be seen in game and enjoy it for what it is now and what it can be. Threats of cancellation do nothing to boost morale or accomplish anything. Most people that work in an MMO love the game itself and take pride and usually are gamers themselves. Keep the topic alive and burning but keep it civil:)

[Tamaranis]

Having worked "on the front line" for a lot of large, unwieldy companies that have been abundantly aware of things they are doing that are adversely affecting customers...

 

Sometimes nothing gets done until a fire gets lit under the right person.

 

In this metaphor fire is losing a lot of money.

[stuffystuffs]

The problem I see with that, though, is if they don't open up the current companions to s/s romance... The LGBT community is being forced to share all of its content, while heterosexuals get their own exclusive content from the beginning.

 

Well, BW has done this before (minus DA2). Heterosexuals always get exclusive romance options while those playing a homosexual have to share their option...and you only get one option...or none.

 

I still stand that hero-sexual is the way to go here.

 

I agree.

 

I don't think it fair that the heterosexual PC gets a smorgasbord of options and the ability to pick whomever they wish from all the options while the homosexual PC is limited to whomever the writers determine they are allowed to pursue...based on seemingly arbitrary criteria.

 

Notice, I say 'whomever the writers determine they are allowed to pursue' vs. 'whoever is bisexual/gay' because that is really what's going on. For example, in Dragon Age: Origin, it's not that Morrigan was heterosexual and rejected advances from my female character but my female character couldn't even pursue her (and get turned down or whatever). Therefore, the writers determined that of the two ladies I was traveling with, I could only be attracted to and pursue Leliana. That is different from 'Leliana was the female open to my advances'.

Edited February 8, 2012 by stuffystuffs

[Suaine]

Notice, I say 'whomever the writers determine they are allowed to pursue' vs. 'whoever is bisexual/gay' because that is really what's going on. For example, in Dragon Age: Origin, it's not that Morrigan was heterosexual and rejected advances from my female character but my female character couldn't even pursue her (and get turned down or whatever). Therefore, the writers determined that of the two ladies I was traveling with, I could only be attracted to and pursue Leliana. That is different from 'Leliana was the female open to my advances'.

 

Yeah, I played a gay mage in love with Alistair without having been spoiled *at all* and I kept waiting and hoping and I swear that was the most ridiculous week of pining and wondering I've had while playing a game. If they'd just given me the option to make a pass and be rebuffed, I would have been a lot happier.

 

And, well, then I got the Equal Love mod and aside from being called the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen, I think I came out alright. DA2 was actually really really good in that regard (and damn, but I loved that game, for so many reasons) and it's become my standard for implementation of that SGR. We should get the chance to define our characters that way, even if the companion or NPC is not receptive to the advance.

[sparklecat]

What I really want at this point is simply a timeline. Because as long as it's left as being at some undefined "post-launch" point, I feel like I'm just being pacified, without Bioware necessarily caring about our concerns or even intending to work on this for years to come.

 

 

 

Beyond that, some information on details/how it's planned to be handled in advance so the community can discuss and offer feedback *before* a ton of work has already been done and they're committed to their decisions could be a really good idea.

[sparklecat]

Oh yeah, and I also want you to add Watcher Two as a lesbian romance for the IA.

[Uluain]

Having worked "on the front line" for a lot of large, unwieldy companies that have been abundantly aware of things they are doing that are adversely affecting customers...

 

Sometimes nothing gets done until a fire gets lit under the right person.

 

In this metaphor fire is losing a lot of money.

Money talks, there is no doubt about that.

 

That said, I think there is another way.

 

I still am hoping that we'll get an answer of some kind in the Developer Q&A on the 10th. In fact, whether or not we do may be a fair indication of how much of a priority SGRs are for BioWare. So that would be our third indication.

 

(First indication, that SGRs will be included... eventually. Second indication, that we have heard nothing new since Sep. 13.)

 

Whether or not this issue is addressed, I think we all need to move beyond the Forums to actually be heard. I've already posted the info in this thread, but on the 10th I will once again post the various email addresses, mailing addresses, telephone numbers and fax numbers for EA Games, Bioware and LucasArts.

 

Surface mail should probably be sent on the 10th or 11th to arrive on the 14th. Emails, phone calls or faxes - as you prefer - should be sent by as many of us as possible to all of the above on February 14th, that is Valentine's Day - as after all, it's the romances and flirts which we have been frozen out of.

 

That might be enough of a spark to get someone's attention.

 

If it isn't, there is always the Guild Leader Summit in March.

 

Don't stop asking, politely and reasonably. This isn't a minor matter anymore. This is 2012, and same-gender content ought to have been integral to the design and available at launch. Token inclusion may have been daring in 1992, but it's looking pretty feeble now.

[Nozybidaj]

So what i would ask is that people please keep an open mind about this. And second if you are one that wants SSR's in game stay with the game, support it, canceling your subscription and leaving is not helping. I know Bioware made a mistake by not having them in at launch but there is alot of wonderful content to be seen in game and enjoy it for what it is now and what it can be. Threats of cancellation do nothing to boost morale or accomplish anything. Most people that work in an MMO love the game itself and take pride and usually are gamers themselves. Keep the topic alive and burning but keep it civil:)

 

Well that is the problem, I'm not seeing any of the wonderful content because I'm constantly putting my characters on hold at various points because I don't want to spoil the game and the stories for myself. I've pretty much hit a point now where I can't advance my characters without going past the content that is missing from the game.

 

Lets face it, at the moment the class stories ARE the game. The romances are a big part of the character story. I can't continue playing the game anymore without missing that content and ruining the pacing and context of any same gender content they would even care to add in the future.

 

I'm not going to keep playing a game where the design decisions made are actively and deliberately forcing me to miss out on content.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Nozybidaj

[stuffystuffs]

Oh yeah, and I also want you to add Watcher Two as a lesbian romance for the IA.

 

Oh yes x100

[EvanSnowWolf]

 

It's an all-or-nothing scenario, really..

 

 

... why?

[Tenebram]

The waiting is pretty bad.. I have 2 level 40s now that are level 40 and havent even reached act 2 just from doing pvp and flashpoints.. It would be really nice to have some info still.. would be nice to know how many more characters I have to level that way while waiting

[Uluain]

I'm not going to keep playing a game where the design decisions made are actively and deliberately forcing me to miss out on content.

This is where I advance my Jedi, who I do not expect to be interested in this content. Were the option to approach current companions of the same gender introduced, I would gladly start over on my Smuggler, with whom I do feel (deliberately and intentionally) excluded by BioWare's murky semi-support of diversity.

 

I have determined to maintain my subscription through June, in part because I simply enjoy the game but also in large part because as a subscriber I have a certain amount of leverage with BioWare, in addition of course to having the option to post here regarding my concerns.

 

Your voice in support of these issues will be missed. If you are determined on leaving the game, I hope you will contact BioWare to explain why you reached such a decision.

[Uluain]

... why?

Because token inclusiveness is really just as much of an afterthought as no inclusion at all. It is saying, "we feel that this is worth addressing, but not if it's any trouble or risk."

 

Does BioWare feel that same-gender content ought to be included, or not? Either they do or they don't. To claim they do, where all evidence to date as far as what is in the game as it stands indicates a dismissive indifference, is fence-sitting of the worst kind.

 

This ought to have been in from the start. Whoever arrived at that notion of a compromise made a terrible decision that outrages both sides of the issue. I wonder why he still has a job.

 

BioWare has left itself few graceful ways out of this awkwardness. An apology would be a good place to begin, but I am not holding my breath. What is necessary is the sort of dialog on this issue which this thread is calling for. Finally, if BioWare is in fact sincere in its desire to be inclusive, they must act on it.

 

And a token response will not be an adequate demonstration of genuine support. It will come off badly after this bad beginning.

[EvanSnowWolf]

Because token inclusiveness is really just as much of an afterthought as no inclusion at all. It is saying, "we feel that this is worth addressing, but not if it's any trouble or risk."

 

Does BioWare feel that same-gender content ought to be included, or not? Either they do or they don't. To claim they do, where all evidence to date as far as what is in the game as it stands indicates a dismissive indifference, is fence-sitting of the worst kind.

 

This ought to have been in from the start. Whoever arrived at that notion of a compromise made a terrible decision that outrages both sides of the issue. I wonder why he still has a job.

 

BioWare has left itself few graceful ways out of this awkwardness. An apology would be a good place to begin, but I am not holding my breath. What is necessary is the sort of dialog on this issue which this thread is calling for. Finally, if BioWare is in fact sincere in its desire to be inclusive, they must act on it.

 

And a token response will not be an adequate demonstration of genuine support. It will come off badly after this bad beginning.

 

Yeah, but can't that level of political correctness turn into a runaway train? If this is some extension of the 14th amendment being expressed (to use a loose comparison), then can't just about every single "misrepresented group" use the exact same objections?

 

The game doesn't seem to have enough Asian characters. Or black characters. The ratio is way off. Not many children, either. You could get really uppity trying to force a 1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1 ratio on stuff.

 

Which is why the more I look at it, and the more I really loathe the idea... making all characters bisexual and having them prompted by a flirt option is probably the only realistic option. Any other method is just going to create an ENORMOUS amount of work.