Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Shaddaq]

That's why I find the UI toggle suggestion an unacceptable compromise. The point of inclusiveness is not to make those you are including invisible. Tolerance is not tolerance if it is only extended on condition that it can pretend you don't exist.

 

Hello,

 

You have to decide what you want, because it makes a big difference as to whether or not you'll be getting it.

 

Do you want same gender relationships?

 

Or do you want to force the small-minded people of the world to acknowledge you as an equal?

 

This game can only provide one of those two things.

 

I think I will be content if everyone gets the option to play the way they want to play. That, to me, is the goal here.

[Nozybidaj]

 

This game can only provide one of those two things.

 

Well, unless you are on the dev team I find that statement slightly (i.e a lot) less than definitive. Like I said, I don't care if they put a toggle in or not, but it certainly shouldn't be a priority nor a requirement in getting the content into the game. They don't have a toggle for it now, I don't see any pressing reason to add one once they get the missing options into the game either.

[Pink_Saber]

Do you want same gender relationships?

 

Or do you want to force the small-minded people of the world to acknowledge you as an equal?

 

I think part of the point here is that Bioware would have to actually go out of their way to include a "Gay-Away" toggle. It would be perfectly doable to add SGRA options without such a wide-reaching, difficult-to-implement option designed specifically to pacify the intolerant and/or phobic. There's just no need for it, especially considering Bioware obvious thinks romances in general are perfectly OK for their intended audience, based on the fact that this toggle does not exist.

 

So, yeah, I'd like to see these romance options added -- but not at the cost of reinforcing for those small-minded people that I'm some freak that needs to be hidden out of sight in case his children might see me. Honestly, add rather not see SGRAs at all if having them means a mechanism is added to the game to reinforce some people's irrational phobias. One little feature like being able to flirt with someone of my own gender is not worth sacrificing my self-respect.

[Nozybidaj]

I think part of the point here is that Bioware would have to actually go out of their way to include a "Gay-Away" toggle. It would be perfectly doable to add SGRA options without such a wide-reaching, difficult-to-implement option designed specifically to pacify the intolerant and/or phobic. There's just no need for it, especially considering Bioware obvious thinks romances in general are perfectly OK for their intended audience, based on the fact that this toggle does not exist.

 

So, yeah, I'd like to see these romance options added -- but not at the cost of reinforcing for those small-minded people that I'm some freak that needs to be hidden out of sight in case his children might see me. Honestly, add rather not see SGRAs at all if having them means a mechanism is added to the game to reinforce some people's irrational phobias. One little feature like being able to flirt with someone of my own gender is not worth sacrificing my self-respect.

 

To that point I should have been more specific in my previous statement. If they do at some point in the future decide to add a toggle it should be all or nothing. "Show Flirts or Not Show Flirts". If someone wants to turn the flirt options off all together, fine have at it.

 

I agree though, its a pretty small thing and not really something I would consider a prerequisite for adding missing content options. The main thing is to finally get the options in the game that should have been there since launch.

[Shaddaq]

I think part of the point here is that Bioware would have to actually go out of their way to include a "Gay-Away" toggle. It would be perfectly doable to add SGRA options without such a wide-reaching, difficult-to-implement option designed specifically to pacify the intolerant and/or phobic. There's just no need for it, especially considering Bioware obvious thinks romances in general are perfectly OK for their intended audience, based on the fact that this toggle does not exist.

 

So, yeah, I'd like to see these romance options added -- but not at the cost of reinforcing for those small-minded people that I'm some freak that needs to be hidden out of sight in case his children might see me. Honestly, add rather not see SGRAs at all if having them means a mechanism is added to the game to reinforce some people's irrational phobias. One little feature like being able to flirt with someone of my own gender is not worth sacrificing my self-respect.

 

Hello,

 

Well, this opinion has a very real impact on how or even if Bioware will want to consider implementing an SGR feature.

 

Remember, corporations are soulless machines seeking profit. Their only incentive to add SGR is in order to please/pacify the most customers they can, in order to gain maximum profit.

 

The best solution for Bioware is obviously to give you the feature you want while giving less enlightened souls the 'ignore' screen they want. Both camps happy, lots of money.

 

However, if getting SGR's is not of value to you unless others are forced to see the SGR options, you are placing a soulless corporation in the position of having to choose.

 

Corporations will always choose the path to the most profit with the least investment.

 

This isn't about self-respect. This is a much simpler equation.

 

How do I convince a creature of profit to give me a desired feature?

 

The more conditions you place upon them in giving you this feature, the less likely they are to find it profitable.

[Nozybidaj]

The more conditions you place upon them in giving you this feature, the less likely they are to find it profitable.

 

I think it is a pretty safe that the number of people who would stop their subscription due to lack of same gender romances is going to be many times larger than the number of people who will stop theirs because of lack of a toggle option. A BW fanbase is certainly used to seeing this type of content and I (would like to) think a majority of people in general are mature enough to overlook dialogue options they choose to not to use. The number of people playing TOR that would genuinely leave the game over something like seeing optional dialogue choices is going to be so insignificant that I doubt BW is going to put much time into it.

 

Sure one or two people in a forum thread can make a big noise over it, but the playerbase as a whole isn't going to be radically offended by same gender flirt options. The return BW would get on an investment of resources to create the toggle options would by miniscule at best.

[Pink_Saber]

Hello,

 

Well, this opinion has a very real impact on how or even if Bioware will want to consider implementing an SGR feature.

 

To be honest, I doubt this is true. Bioware's done the right thing in the past, and I'd like to think they'll do it again. This isn't a company that's ever gone to great lengths to pander to homophobes before, and I doubt they'll start now.

 

Is it frustrating all we've seen is a repeated, vague, semi-promise so far? Sure. But I have some faith in them based on their past track record.

 

The best solution for Bioware is obviously to give you the feature you want while giving less enlightened souls the 'ignore' screen they want. Both camps happy, lots of money.

 

I completely disagree. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people couldn't care less about whether a same-sex flirt option comes up. What you seem to be suggesting is that adding this toggle will make everyone happy, when it's quite clear from this thread it won't. I'd say chances are good it would anger far more people than it would please, and could backfire pretty badly on a company that, in the past, has proven to be one of the most inclusive out there.

 

Shifting gears now and pandering to the intolerant could lose them a lot of faithful customers.

 

This isn't about self-respect. This is a much simpler equation.

 

How do I convince a creature of profit to give me a desired feature?

 

The more conditions you place upon them in giving you this feature, the less likely they are to find it profitable.

 

I'm not the one putting conditions on my request. I'd like them to do what they've said they would do. The only people making demands are the ones who don't want me to have it -- and, frankly, they got their half of the deal already.

 

And yes, it is about self-respect. I'd love SGRA's in this game, but if getting them means I have to watch as Bioware adds a toggle to make "my kind" invisible to avoid angering a handful of rabid bigots? No thanks. Nothing Bioware has done in the past would make up for an insult like that.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[Shaddaq]

Hello,

 

Well, you've made your stand, and I can respect you for it.

 

I hope things turn out in your favor.

[MoogleNut]

Hello,

 

 

 

The best solution for Bioware is obviously to give you the feature you want while giving less enlightened souls the 'ignore' screen they want. Both camps happy, lots of money.

 

 

There was no 'ignore' feature for the same gender content in Fallout 3 and New Vegas, The Fable games, Skyrim, or the Sims, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, KoToR (Yes it was there, for us girls anyway - Juhani), Luxa flirting with the female Exile in KoToR 2, or Jade Empire.

 

Non of these high-profile and in some cases award winning games were adversely affected sales-wise because of the same gender content, so the argument that SWTOR will lose significant amounts of cash is one that really doesn't hold up.

 

If anything these games increased in sales by having that content and thus reaching out to another audience who might never have played the games in the first place - much the same as having a choice of a male or female protagonist has opened up gaming to a larger audience. (And still there are gamers who complain about that )

 

It's funny how the players who don't want he content as they think it will somehow effect their relationship (or lack thereof) with the companions. Yet they have no problem with the fact that other players can change that companion's physical appearance as well as gear. Can chose to befriend them or ignore them, can choose to take a number of differing paths with that same character.

 

If they can happily play the game while thousands of other men/women romance 'their' companions - it shouldn't matter that those other players are the same or opposite gender.

 

And that's my thoughts for the day, 'tis past mmidnight and time for my bed

Edited February 7, 2012 by MoogleNut

[Tenebram]

Yeah frankly I'd be happy if they just add the SSRs period at this point... the more complicated people make it the less likely it will be added soon if at all.. while I know thats not the nicest thing to think about I personally would rather they add something in soon and improve upon it later than it take a really long time before they add anything at all. Then they can tweak it (within reason) add more features, enable more options, add the "ignore" feature if its really necessary though I dont really think that makes much sense considering you cant really turn off "flirt options" in real life. After all you cant make someone not make a pass at you for the intial time atleast (short of going around with a name tag stating "Im not gay/bi") and you as a person always have the choice to flirt or not, and being a RPG (yes it is a RPG even if its a MMO) you are playing the role of the character. Edited February 7, 2012 by Tenebram

[Kioma]

Remember, corporations are soulless machines seeking profit. Their only incentive to add SGR is in order to please/pacify the most customers they can, in order to gain maximum profit.

 

Corporations, yes. Developers and writers, no. Some of the people making games for others to play are indeed deeply interested in making those games enjoyable and inclusive simply so people will enjoy them. In the end they need to make money, and want to make money, but the function of a corporation is not necessarily equal to the attitude of its employees.

 

The best solution for Bioware is obviously to give you the feature you want while giving less enlightened souls the 'ignore' screen they want. Both camps happy, lots of money.

 

No. That may be the easiest solution but it's most certainly not the best.

 

How do I convince a creature of profit to give me a desired feature?

 

We don't. They've already said this feature is coming. We're mostly concerned as to the hows and whens, not the ifs.

 

The more conditions you place upon them in giving you this feature, the less likely they are to find it profitable.

 

Using that logic, it would cost more money to implement a toggle than to not.

 

And at the end of the day these options should not be conditional if opposite-sex options are not conditional. This isn't about conditions placed on an unusual feature that may or may not be put in place. This is about equality of implementation and, importantly, information regarding that implementation.

[Atandras]

I began a petition on change.org if anyone would take the time to sign it, perhaps we can begin making change. After all, bioware is the top of the pack on issues such as this.

 

http://www.change.org/petitions/bioware-tell-bioware-to-include-same-gender-romance-in-star-wars-the-old-republic

[Tamaranis]

Hello,

 

You have to decide what you want, because it makes a big difference as to whether or not you'll be getting it.

 

Do you want same gender relationships?

 

Or do you want to force the small-minded people of the world to acknowledge you as an equal?

 

This game can only provide one of those two things.

 

I think I will be content if everyone gets the option to play the way they want to play. That, to me, is the goal here.

 

You're not really presenting the situation honestly.

 

No one is asking the Bioware turn the world into a paradise of tolerance, acceptance, love, kittens, etc.

 

What people are asking Bioware to do is not to discriminate against them. Both including same gender romances and not slapping the GLBT community in the face with a "gay away" toggle are aspects of that and easily within Bioware's power.

[Kioma]

I began a petition on change.org if anyone would take the time to sign it, perhaps we can begin making change. After all, bioware is the top of the pack on issues such as this.

 

http://www.change.org/petitions/bioware-tell-bioware-to-include-same-gender-romance-in-star-wars-the-old-republic

 

Um. I was actually thinking of doing something (extremely) similar but the exact focus of your petition concerns me a little. They've said the feature is coming. They already know it needs to be put there. What we really need is dialogue, feedback and discussion with them on how they intend to do so.

[Atandras]

Um. I was actually thinking of doing something (extremely) similar but the exact focus of your petition concerns me a little. They've said the feature is coming. They already know it needs to be put there. What we really need is dialogue, feedback and discussion with them on how they intend to do so.

 

How would you have written it then? I am trying to sound as politically correct as I can possibly be.

[Nozybidaj]

There was no 'ignore' feature for the same gender content in Fallout 3 and New Vegas, The Fable games, Skyrim, or the Sims, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, KoToR (Yes it was there, for us girls anyway - Juhani), Luxa flirting with the female Exile in KoToR 2, or Jade Empire.

 

Non of these high-profile and in some cases award winning games were adversely affected sales-wise because of the same gender content, so the argument that SWTOR will lose significant amounts of cash is one that really doesn't hold up.

 

If anything these games increased in sales by having that content and thus reaching out to another audience who might never have played the games in the first place - much the same as having a choice of a male or female protagonist has opened up gaming to a larger audience. (And still there are gamers who complain about that )

 

Well for that matter, that is an entirely different group from BW - Austin. At the moment we have no idea if BW - Austin shares the same ideas of inclusiveness as the group that made Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. All we have to go on so far is their actions. So far I am unimpressed (at least as far as this issue goes). It is all well and good to provide a form letter in the face of the concerns of the player base that wants to see this content, but until we see action, I'll remain skeptical of the Austin branch.

[Atandras]

Um. I was actually thinking of doing something (extremely) similar but the exact focus of your petition concerns me a little. They've said the feature is coming. They already know it needs to be put there. What we really need is dialogue, feedback and discussion with them on how they intend to do so.

 

I see what you mean now, I modified and re-edited the text to a more appropriate form.

[Kioma]

How would you have written it then? I am trying to sound as politically correct as I can possibly be.

 

Sorry, I hope my tone didn't sound dismissive. I think it's a great idea.

 

I'd have written something along the lines of:

 

Bioware is a gaming company which has previously shown strong commitment to the equitable and fair inclusion of same-sex relationship options in their products. They've stated that these options for their MMO, Star Wars: the Old Republic, are coming post-launch but have not said anything more, nor been drawn into open dialogue with their fans and players.

 

Please sign this petition as a strong and visible indication that we want and need Bioware to openly recognise our concerns regarding the implementation of these features. Bioware needs to 'put their money where their mouth is' and show that this feature isn't just going to be included as an afterthought. Communication, now!

 

Or something like that. I'm not sure, that's just what I came up with on the fly.

[Tamaranis]

When it comes time to apply pressure, I don't think a petition formally asking them what people have been asking them for months already is going to be strong enough.

 

They know people would like an answer, and so far their response to that has been... gentle censorship.

 

Now if a couple of tens of thousands of people were to sign a petition saying their account will be cancelled on a certain date unless Bioware sorts themselves out... if there's a few hundred thousand dollars in the crosshairs and it's clear censorship will only exacerbate the problem, they'll get chatty.

 

I'm not sure if that kind of pressure can actually be created, (I hope we live in a world where it can be) but it's probably not time for that anyway.

 

The number of filters and channels information has to pass through before anything can be officially said or done is probably staggering. There's a good chance we're simply staring down the barrel of bureaucractic inefficiency.

[Vodalus]

When it comes time to apply pressure, I don't think a petition formally asking them what people have been asking them for months already is going to be strong enough.

 

They know people would like an answer, and so far their response to that has been... gentle censorship.

 

Now if a couple of tens of thousands of people were to sign a petition saying their account will be cancelled on a certain date unless Bioware sorts themselves out... if there's a few hundred thousand dollars in the crosshairs and it's clear censorship will only exacerbate the problem, they'll get chatty.

 

I'm not sure if that kind of pressure can actually be created, (I hope we live in a world where it can be) but it's probably not time for that anyway.

 

The number of filters and channels information has to pass through before anything can be officially said or done is probably staggering. There's a good chance we're simply staring down the barrel of bureaucractic inefficiency.

 

September to February. . . That's not simple bureaucratic inefficiency, that's ignore it until the heat gets turned up again.

 

Note the word again. The only reason we even got their precious copypasta statement is because the forums exploded after a particular interview. I am afraid that it will take a similar uproar to get another response before Tatooine freezes over.

 

*edit: And I don't think that sort of response is possible now that the game has launched. During pre-launch people are bored and always on the forums. Now, they only come to the forums while they are unable to get in-game (and they close the forums during downtime. . . )

Edited February 7, 2012 by Vodalus

[Nozybidaj]

Now if a couple of tens of thousands of people were to sign a petition saying their account will be cancelled on a certain date unless Bioware sorts themselves out... if there's a few hundred thousand dollars in the crosshairs and it's clear censorship will only exacerbate the problem, they'll get chatty.

 

I'm not sure if that kind of pressure can actually be created, (I hope we live in a world where it can be) but it's probably not time for that anyway.

 

Probably could have (generate the pressure) back when they first announced same gender relationships were cut from the game. The threads on the issue back then were massive. It seems many of those supporters simply aren't around anymore. Hard to rally support that already left. Best chance is if BW thinks including it at this point would bring those people back.

 

Honestly as far as that goes, depending on how long this takes for them to get implemented I doubt I'll return either even though I have enjoyed the game so far aside from this obviously glaring issue.

[StSathar]

Honestly as far as that goes, depending on how long this takes for them to get implemented I doubt I'll return either even though I have enjoyed the game so far aside from this obviously glaring issue.

 

Yeah, first major warning sign here, I'm spending more time daily reading through this and the related forum threads than actually playing the game. That was the death knell for getting bored and wandering off from the last MMO I played, except in that case in took me three or four years to reach that point, not a month and a half.

[Tenebram]

As much as everyone (myself included) is starting to give up hope.. just looking back.. this thread is only 20 days old, and the speed at which people's hopes are going great to non existant is pretty crazy when you take a step back and look at it, considering how many threads and problems the forum has going on apart from this one it is to be expected that responses we get are few and far between, thats not to say we gotta like it I'm just saying we cant all give up just yet nor should we just resort to flaming the company.

 

We do deserve a new personalized response, but I dont think the people in charge of monitoring the forums have the authority to give us anything definitive thus being why we get the same quote over and over. I don't really know what we can do besides ask them to put pressure on those people that do have the authority.

 

As a side note though I do agree the longer they wait the more people they are going to lose, which is why I think it is kind of absurd that they havent given us something at this point.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Tenebram

[gekko_s]

I think it's pretty safe to say that many who wants/wanted this has moved on. I've already cancelled my subscription. I still check in here from time to time to see if there are any announcements, but it gets less and less interesting.

 

I'm going to try out the Fable series instead until Mass Effect 3 ships. Games with romance stories but without same gender options are a no go for me.

Edited February 7, 2012 by gekko_s

[MusedMoose]

As much as everyone (myself included) is starting to give up hope.. just looking back.. this thread is only 20 days old, and the speed at which people's hopes are going great to non existant is pretty crazy when you take a step back and look at it, considering how many threads and problems the forum has going on apart from this one it is to be expected that responses we get are few and far between, thats not to say we gotta like it I'm just saying we cant all give up just yet nor should we just resort to flaming the company.

 

We do deserve a new personalized response, but I dont think the people in charge of monitoring the forums have the authority to give us anything definitive thus being why we get the same quote over and over. I don't really know what we can do besides ask them to put pressure on those people that do have the authority.

 

As a side note though I do agree the longer they wait the more people they are going to lose, which is why I think it is kind of absurd that they havent given us something at this point.

Agreed on all counts. I know it's frustrating not to hear anything. I know it's easy to think we're being ignored. But the lack of news is that and only that - a lack of news. Assigning any meaning to it beyond that is nothing but speculation and assumption, and I think we all know what happens when you assume.

 

I'd like to encourage everyone who calls this issue important to not give up hope. Remember that this is an issue BioWare has committed to amending, and they have not said that's changed. They're aware of this thread, they're aware that many of this game's fans are passionate about the inclusion of SGRs. Keep encouraging others to let BioWare know it's important to them too, keep writing letters, post over in the Q&A Thread if you haven't already.

 

That last one is particularly important - we'll be getting responses on the 10th, and the more questions there are about SGRs, the more likely we'll get a response. If we don't get one this week, keep asking for next week, and so on.

 

Some might say trying to stay positive about this doesn't do any good. You might be right. But I know that being negative does not do a damn bit of good and only brings others down. So I'm going to keep encouraging people to speak up, and keep saying that we've got no reason to believe BW has put this issue aside.

Edited February 7, 2012 by MusedMoose