Wake up call bad players

[Brouwerrr]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

[Frostbird]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

 

 

...Wat?

 

Oh, I get it. "Your class is fine, despite being not recruited by most smart guilds *at all* and then as a last resort only. Despite the overwhelming opinion on the forums, I am right due to a fabricated story in PvP at lower levels".

 

Gotcha.

[Soonerjohn]

Wow! Reading your post cured my grandma of cancer! You are the most amazing juggernaut to ever post on these forums.

[Brouwerrr]

i'm just saying Juggernauts are good.

[JamieM]

i'm just saying Juggernauts are good.

 

Or maybe those 5 lower levels you fought were not.

[Tengobotas]

You made a post just to say clicking is bad?

 

Newsflash: you are bad.

[MadJehuty]

I was going to make a witty comment. Then I took a trace missile in the knee.

[Lord_Itharius]

...Wat?

 

Oh, I get it. "Your class is fine, despite being not recruited by most smart guilds *at all* and then as a last resort only. Despite the overwhelming opinion on the forums, I am right due to a fabricated story in PvP at lower levels".

 

Gotcha.

What super elite awesome guild do you belong to that refuses to recruit juggernauts because they're slightly underpowered? Last time I checked, guilds with class diversity progress faster because they don't have to throw away items.

[Frostbird]

What super elite awesome guild do you belong to that refuses to recruit juggernauts because they're slightly underpowered? Last time I checked, guilds with class diversity progress faster because they don't have to throw away items.

 

Reading the guild forums, class forums and chatting to three guys from different raid guilds on my server (Harbinger) last night, they all said something along the lines of "if you are looking at getting into top tier content, don't even bother rolling a SW. We have one spot for a Marauder due to some buffs they bring. If you want a saber, roll a sorcerer."

 

Not even a matter of super elite. It just seems that, from everything I've seen or read, that SWs are regarded as badly inferior to any other tanking choice. No 'slightly' about it.

[archontrieste]

Not even a matter of super elite. It just seems that, from everything I've seen or read, that SWs are regarded as badly inferior to any other tanking choice. No 'slightly' about it.

 

This is only logical really. Anyone, regardless of level or class, should be able to see it if they stopped and thought for a moment. You need only look at the numbers to know that Powertechs are significantly better tanks. We can sort of compare while tanking single targets, but the scat hits the fan when a mob brings his boys into the mix.

 

I actually think Juggernaut can be pretty good in PvP, I just don't see it having a future in any difficult PvE content at all. We don't have enough threat building abilities, we don't have enough AoE, and we don't have comparable mitigation outside of 3 minute cooldowns. I'm sure many people 'make it work', but frankly, why simply make it work when you can get someone else who can do a proper job of it?

 

And our PvE DPS... that's not even up for debate at this point. Similar boat, even more holes.

Edited January 17, 2012 by archontrieste

[Banivisa]

This is only logical really. Anyone, regardless of level or class, should be able to see it if they stopped and thought for a moment. You need only look at the numbers to know that Powertechs are significantly better tanks. We can sort of compare while tanking single targets, but the scat hits the fan when a mob brings his boys into the mix.

 

I actually think Juggernaut can be pretty good in PvP, I just don't see it having a future in any difficult PvE content at all. We don't have enough threat building abilities, we don't have enough AoE, and we don't have comparable mitigation outside of 3 minute cooldowns. I'm sure many people 'make it work', but frankly, why simply make it work when you can get someone else who can do a proper job of it?

 

And our PvE DPS... that's not even up for debate at this point. Similar boat, even more holes.

 

Curious as to what numbers your looking at since there is no combat log. I've had to FRAPS all my testing to looking at the flying text and even some of those numbers are wrong once you do the math.

 

So show me the numbers please?

 

All the elites know is nothing other then perception and the perception is that the class is weak compared to other Tanks, which I think might be true but to what extent only the Dev's know.

 

Not going to argue whether or not we need a buff because I think we do and we do have some abilities are bugged/broken which is causing issues. However since I was able to solo Heroic 4 all the way till Voss we're not that broken and I'm currently tanking HM FPs just fine.

[Morsexy]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

 

Pretty unhelpful post. You should give us some details, and maybe in some real world context not, "I beat up a bunch of 12 year olds at the YMCA... also I'm 32".

[soulofice]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

 

ONE YOU ARE LING that said post a video becuase at 28 you dont have enough skill points for the big crits;)

Edited January 17, 2012 by soulofice

[Xanxari]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

 

 

**** off with your trololololololololololoolololololoolololoololololoololololoololololoololololoololololoolololoololololoololololoololololoolololoolololololoolololoolololoololololooloolololololoololololololoolollolololoollololoololoollolololooloolololololollololooloooololooolooooolool

[Helig]

that's right.

 

Now and then i check the forums. And all i see is "juggernauts suck". Well boys and girls. You're just a bad player. Juggernauts are good. They just cost patience and teamwork of the right attacks.

 

Example uno!: Yesterday i fought 5 people individual. Same lvl and different classes. That's right i won. And i won good. Without using potions and our extreme buffs. I'm lvl 28, so according to the forums. Things will only get better.

 

 

 

 

Soooo... my fellow juggerboys and juggergirls. Hang in there and hang on to your keyboard. Because using your mouse for skills, is using death.

 

thnx, and sorry for my bad english.

 

ciao:rod_tongue_p:

 

I see what you did there. A solid attempt.

 

8\10

Edited January 17, 2012 by Helig

[Tielk]

i love double lag posting, its so fun. Edited January 17, 2012 by Tielk
double post

[Tielk]

Curious as to what numbers your looking at since there is no combat log. I've had to FRAPS all my testing to looking at the flying text and even some of those numbers are wrong once you do the math.

 

So show me the numbers please?

 

All the elites know is nothing other then perception and the perception is that the class is weak compared to other Tanks, which I think might be true but to what extent only the Dev's know.

 

Not going to argue whether or not we need a buff because I think we do and we do have some abilities are bugged/broken which is causing issues. However since I was able to solo Heroic 4 all the way till Voss we're not that broken and I'm currently tanking HM FPs just fine.

 

You can data mine base numbers from the game itself.

 

oh and.....

 

Its not a matter of if the class is viable, its a matter of the fact that the class is just not efficient as the other 2 tanking classes.

Juggs have to work a hell of a lot harder for threat then SAs or PTs do. They have little to no AoE capability, and there single target threat in most cases requires the heavy hitting DPS to chill for a few seconds and waste valuable DPS time while the SW gets a threat lead. SWs need 1 big change. When in soresu form, Smash should deal a high amount of threat, not just deal damage and reduce the enemies accuracy. This would have 0 affect on PvP balance, and would give the SW something to use to spam higher AoE and Single target threat.

 

Maraders, from what I am told, right now, you poor poor souls have less damage reduction from armor then...well....any other class......yea.....yall be in a world of hurt. There numbers are outstanding, however, dead dps is still 0

[steinsgate]

Curious as to what numbers your looking at since there is no combat log. I've had to FRAPS all my testing to looking at the flying text and even some of those numbers are wrong once you do the math.

 

So show me the numbers please?

 

All the elites know is nothing other then perception and the perception is that the class is weak compared to other Tanks, which I think might be true but to what extent only the Dev's know.

 

Not going to argue whether or not we need a buff because I think we do and we do have some abilities are bugged/broken which is causing issues. However since I was able to solo Heroic 4 all the way till Voss we're not that broken and I'm currently tanking HM FPs just fine.

 

1. EVERYONE knows immortal is our best tree. Everyone knows that Immortal is the closest thing to viable the class has. Everyone knows Immortal can solo things. Everyone knows all of this.

 

2. Maybe you haven't been around good players long enough, but once you become familiar with game mechanics and knowledgeable about video games, in general, you don't need to see a hard number to be able to say "Yes, this sucks." The perceptions of the best players are often correct. We may not be able at this point to put a number on "This is how much less DPS juggernaughts do than the rest of classes," but we absolutely can say that we are worse.

[dorkvid]

1. EVERYONE knows immortal is our best tree. Everyone knows that Immortal is the closest thing to viable the class has. Everyone knows Immortal can solo things. Everyone knows all of this.

 

2. Maybe you haven't been around good players long enough, but once you become familiar with game mechanics and knowledgeable about video games, in general, you don't need to see a hard number to be able to say "Yes, this sucks." The perceptions of the best players are often correct. We may not be able at this point to put a number on "This is how much less DPS juggernaughts do than the rest of classes," but we absolutely can say that we are worse.

 

Wait, WHAT?! 'Immortal is our best tree' - says who? Try 14/27/0 build and tell me you can't both tank and hold aggro (disclaimer: if you don't use intercede/charge on every CD, you're doing it wrong).

 

Second, based purely on numbers from tooltips and stats gained from full t3, venge juggernauts are currently the 2nd best single target dps in the game. Concealment spec is slightly better. This is by mapping out all of the skills, damage done with each skill, DoTs, cooldowns, etc. over a span of a 3 minute simulated fight. Madness sorc came in 3rd, followed very closely by annihilation marauder. Do your numbers and get back to me; until you have, I won't believe a damn word you say.

 

And don't even get me started on how amazing rage 'nauts are in PvP...

Edited January 17, 2012 by dorkvid

[RG_jhanlec]

PvP wise, as an immortal jugg I actually feel valuable for what I do. My DPS sucks, I dont knock out a ton of KBs or anything; however, I usually finish with 20-50k protection (4 medals), low damage total overall, but usually 1-3 medals here for the small amount I do. I can get a KB and sometimes even a solo kill if no one comes around for the 3 min it takes me to kill someone. In hutball, if all my CDs are up, I would like to know anyone better at running the ball. With Def CDs I can defend a node from multiple high dmg people for a while before I go down. Buying a lot of time for people to come to my aid. PvP, the only issues I have is that block/absorb dont register on anything but auto-attack and lvl 1-2 skills. And resolve is clearly broken... I can see myself with a full bar and somehow I get stunned again and again and again.

 

However, in PvE is where my concern about the class lies. As stated before threat is just sad and sadly lacking in every respect, especially when compared to other classes. I do 3x the amount of work to be on par with the "slow" kids in other classes. Part of this is my damage being so low, but mostly its because we just lack whats needed to get going quickly. Needing to burn CDs just to get rage, while other classes start with their utility at full (heat, force). My AoE is so lame that upon using my full rage bar any class with AoE can pull off me with their AoE in less than 1 GCD.

 

My defensive cool downs are better, but only slightly. This doesnt make up for the lack in DPS and threat generation. On top of that, a few talents that the other tanks have easily accessible are 20+ point talents in the DPS tree for me (strait mitigation, endurance buff, intercede buff, unstoppable!!!! nothing like force charge group and then choked, stun, sleep and watch mobs scatter and kill group). I would also like to mention the plethora of near useless talents in the Immortal tree. Lower rage cost of chilling scream, lower CD of unleash by 12.5% for a whopping waste since every PvE encounter takes into account the full CD needed. Stunning target with Force Charge... which only work on weaks. Sweeping Fury is needed for the rage buff... so basically I am told that in order to balance my utility with other classes I need to talent it... fair enough.

[Banivisa]

1. EVERYONE knows immortal is our best tree. Everyone knows that Immortal is the closest thing to viable the class has. Everyone knows Immortal can solo things. Everyone knows all of this.

 

2. Maybe you haven't been around good players long enough, but once you become familiar with game mechanics and knowledgeable about video games, in general, you don't need to see a hard number to be able to say "Yes, this sucks." The perceptions of the best players are often correct. We may not be able at this point to put a number on "This is how much less DPS juggernaughts do than the rest of classes," but we absolutely can say that we are worse.

 

Again for the slow an apparently dimwitted it's just perception. You have nothing to back it up.

 

As far as being around "good" players I've cleared all the top content in every game I've played, pve and pvp. I am one of the "good" players, if you want to hang on my coat tails like you apparently are fond of I'll let you. Since that's your litmus test for determining if something is balanced or not.

 

See us good players we use this skill in RL called math. It determines if something is balanced and how the game mechanic works. Funny thing is it's the exact stuff they used to create the game. WOW go figure they didn't just hang out with some good players and then create the game.

 

Class is over junior.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Banivisa

[FerrusPA]

Who even cares about Juggernaut viability in PvP. Before anything they should see to it that Juggernaut tanking becomes less of a pain.

 

Besides, if all you wanna do in Huttball (Admit it, it's the only thing you've played those last few days!) is farm tokens the Juggernaut is perfectly fine.

[Banivisa]

You can data mine base numbers from the game itself.

 

oh and.....

 

Its not a matter of if the class is viable, its a matter of the fact that the class is just not efficient as the other 2 tanking classes.

Juggs have to work a hell of a lot harder for threat then SAs or PTs do. They have little to no AoE capability, and there single target threat in most cases requires the heavy hitting DPS to chill for a few seconds and waste valuable DPS time while the SW gets a threat lead. SWs need 1 big change. When in soresu form, Smash should deal a high amount of threat, not just deal damage and reduce the enemies accuracy. This would have 0 affect on PvP balance, and would give the SW something to use to spam higher AoE and Single target threat.

 

Maraders, from what I am told, right now, you poor poor souls have less damage reduction from armor then...well....any other class......yea.....yall be in a world of hurt. There numbers are outstanding, however, dead dps is still 0

 

You can't determine how base numbers scale via gear and level just by looking at tool tips, you can't determine what damage is being rejects by looking at tool tips and as I said even the game numbers in the flying text is off. We need a combat log so we can see the numbers. Now if your actually going into the game and breaking open files to look at the code I'll take all this back I'd love to see their formulas.

 

As for the 2nd part of your post, all you did was agree with me so thanks.

[dorkvid]

You can't determine how base numbers scale via gear and level just by looking at tool tips,

 

I'm agreeing with your rebuttal, but you can in fact determine all the base numbers, stat weight, and damage scaling.

[United]

you're level 28.....?