"You don't raid unless you are 400 Biochem."

[Exertim]

So basically what's going to happen is the one artificer left on the server will have the pattern to craft the Magenta Adegan Crystal and start charging several million creds for it, then you'll all complain that it's unfair even though YOU chose to all go for the flavor of the month, 'best' crewskill.

 

Bad example. Unless you have a fetish for hot pink lightsabers and/or blaster fire, the Magenta crystals are all outclassed when compared to your Columi and Rakata color crystals. Also, credits in this game is insanely easy to acquire; I *wish* that I had something to spend my 3.5+ million credits on.

 

Any guild that requires you have a certain profession is not a guild anyone should be in. I am a guild leader, and I think this is a ludicrous expectation and completely unhealthy for the guild. We need a diverse group of skills available to us - yes, we need stims and health packs, etc, but we also need someone to craft the epic drop patterns from Ops too. If all 16 of you in the Ops group are biochem and the pattern to teach a cybertech that mass group thing drops, oh well

 

The problem here is there is not a single schematic that I have seen from normal/HM EV and Karagga is better than what we already use (or even close to it). I highly doubt anyone will be scrambling to drop Biochem for 124/128 rating schematics in an instance where bosses drop 136 and 140 rating items. The fact that these schematics make items that are BoP makes the situation worse; if the items made were BoE, then at least you'd at least make some money off of them via the GTN.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Exertim

[Erliandur]

Rakata isnt that much better than blues or even green stims...

 

The main thing they have going for them is reusability.

 

Is having 225 more armor at 10k armor mark really that big of a deal?

 

Is having 30 more of a stat you want and 8 more power really that big of a deal? Especially when you have upwards of 1300 at the point where you are starting to raid?

 

Yes the d00d will spend a lot of money on adrenals. lets face it thats the only thing getting used often and 1 adrenal = cost of 1 blue stim which lasts 2 hours. If youre a tank who needs to keep using rakata med packs then you prolly need to get a better healer or gear.

 

Umm...but yahh... o.O

 

This 100%...

 

Also, min/maxing has nothing with being a good raider (I usually notice the opposite) and it has nothing to do with being part of a hardcore raid guild taking down bosses. Good raiders outperform every time!

[Exertim]

This 100%...

 

Also, min/maxing has nothing with being a good raider (I usually notice the opposite) and it has nothing to do with being part of a hardcore raid guild taking down bosses. Good raiders outperform every time!

 

Your reasoning is completely ludicrous. Here, I'll make an example that most people in this thread can probably relate to:

 

If two similarly skilled players are DPSing, which one will be doing more DPS under these circumstances?:

 

1. The one with Biochem adding additional stats to his character compared to the player using the blue version. Keep in mind that this player also has a superior +ATKP adrenal to use during burn phases when your Sentinel pops Inspiration.

 

2. The player with the inferior stims/adrenal.

 

There really is no argument to be made here. The min-maxer, assuming equal skill to the non min-maxer, will always win. The argument you *CAN* make, however, is that you don't need to have the Biochem bonuses to down a boss, which I completely agree with. As I said earlier, an MMO is entirely about choice: if you don't like your guild imposing requirements, then join a different one.

 

I'm all about efficiency so I try to play with like-minded individuals. This really shouldn't be a hard thing to understand.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Exertim

[Nabyss]

I find it hilarious how many people are against the idea of min/maxing. If you are in a hardcore guild and don't want to min/max, then get the **** out. No one needs you there. If you are not already of the mindset of min/maxing, then you probably aren't on the same level as the other players (exceptions always exist).

 

It sounds to me like you would like a more casual guild. There are guilds for everyone in this game. Don't expect to be in a hardcore guild and get to do whatever you want (Have your cake and eat it too much?). You can tell your guild leadership to suck it, but unless you can think of a viable reason why your crew skill benefits the progression of the guild more than biochem, keep your whining to yourself and leave your guild like a mature adult.

 

No clue why so many have issues with hardcore raiders. The one thing that comes to mind is that at some point you were ridiculed for being a poor player by a hardcore player. This hurt your feelings and now you forever have issues with people who min/max and get enjoyment out of being the best on the server/US/world.

 

Grow up. If you don't want to play professional football, don't play on that kind of team. Get the damn ball and go outisde and play a game with your friends.

[Natarii]

I don't disagree that endgame crafting needs work. I do, however, disagree with a guild requiring every one of it's members to have a specific one, especially considering the game has only been out a month. All the crewskills should have roughly equal benefit to the level 50 player, albeit for different aspects of the game/raid/group/etc. That being said, rushing to switch to biochem because it's currently the front-runner, is not the answer. I fully expect there to be some work done here in the coming weeks to bring the others in line.

 

And my example of the magenta crystal is just that, an example. Creating a shortage in commodities by shifting to all 1 profession drives prices up and up. The crystal came to mind because it's currently a fairly sought after item for some people. There may soon be another equally rare item that people will want and it will fetch a handy price, even more so if there's only a few crafters even elligible to make it.

[Poxu]

Whoa there, cowboy.

 

I pay the exact same you do to play this game. I could argue that I actually pay more per hour than you do because I don't get to play all that often, making my money more important, but we'll set that on the back burner to percolate.

What a trolling argument... First I lolled, then i sighed, as someone might take you seriously.

It's not our fault you dont get to play as much. Does that mean everything has to be dumbed down or made 5-minute fun? As you can't invest more?

You have the gall to say that there is content in this game that I should not have access to? Items I'll let you slide on, because I agree that more work should be put in for those 'l33t gearz'; but there shouldn't be a shred of content I don't get to see because I don't have 400 Biochem, or because I don't have the... and this my favorite... gear from the instance I'm wanting to do so I can get the gear from the instance I'm trying to do. That's an endless cycle of stupidity, or a catch-22 if you will.

 

Rewards for achieving certain accomplishments, such as completing a successful raid, should happen and only to those who earned them. But...

 

Content (not items) should be accessible by EVERYONE.

 

And normal mode Operations are doable with a pug, without any crew skills at all. What makes me see red, is when the likes of you start to moan about hardmodes being too hard. With your exact same logic, other people want everything to be nerfed to the ground, as they are not skilled enough to complete it, but are PAYING CUSTOMERZ; which supposedly gives the right to demand how a game should be made. Which in turn makes the game boring to play for those, who are able. The current normal modes are the turistmodes you wanted. You get to see everything without even knowing what happened.

 

The logic of "I payed for this, I have the right to see everything" just doesnt apply to video games. I presume you have a pile of ongoing lawsuits to Nintendo aswell for not seeing the endgame of Super Mario as it was too hard?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Poxu

[nix_crash]

Hardcore raiding guilds don't care what your professions are. Period. Look at actual hard core raiding guilds across multiple games and you'll see a myriad of professions, along with odd specs and stat weights which you may not chose yourself and which an average player would not get by with.

 

Hardcore guilds care how well you play and how well you understand your class (do you play and understand it well enough to keep up through substantial class nerfs, can you tinker with specs, etc. and still play it extremely well), how fast your reaction times are, how observant you are, whether you move when you need to and stand still when it's required, whether you drag draggable effects through the raid or find a better path, how quick you are to "fill holes," "make pick ups," "move," notice and jump on things that need to be taken care of which others may not be able to do but have the sense to not do that when it'd cause a mess, and ffs wipe rather than dragging a fight out, whether you're capable of creative thinking to use not only your classes abilities but utility, and what you as an intelligent and thinking person -- rather than a key punching drone -- offer to a raid. Having those things is more significant than a guy who brings an extra 30+ endurance to a raid.

 

and when a guild got 20 people with all those skills requesting to enter a raid, how do they chose the 16 guys that actually plays?

yep, they start requesting some other discriminant, it will be equip, it will be special crafting skills and so on.

what people dont get isnt that "the xxx crafting skills wont make you a good player", the problem is that there are a lot of good player so how do you chose between them?

and the required player skill level bar in this game isnt even that high, too, so you have to be even pickier as everybody will be "good enough".

[Lady_Alyria]

It's gonna get nerfed like an hour after you hit 400. It's a waste of time leveling it. BW seems to nerf based on stats. When everyone, everywhere runs to something they know something is wrong and fix it to be on par with everything else. I'm sure they are discussing right now how they can nerf biochem.

[JayStonesen]

If your guild took a moment to look at the guide for crafting, you are in for a big surprise: THE REASON WHY THE OTHER CRAFTINGS ARE UNDERPOWEREDE IS BECAUSE YOU GET ITEMS BY DECRAFTING!! ... Learn it..

[BourbonDingo]

What a trolling argument... First I lolled, then i sighed, as someone might take you seriously.

It's not our fault you dont get to play as much. Does that mean everything has to be dumbed down or made 5-minute fun? As you can't invest more?

 

 

And normal mode Operations are doable with a pug, without any crew skills at all. What makes me see red, is when the likes of you start to moan about hardmodes being too hard. With your exact same logic, other people want everything to be nerfed to the ground, as they are not skilled enough to complete it, but are PAYING CUSTOMERZ; which supposedly gives the right to demand how a game should be made. Which in turn makes the game boring to play for those, who are able. The current normal modes are the turistmodes you wanted. You get to see everything without even knowing what happened.

 

The logic of "I payed for this, I have the right to see everything" just doesnt apply to video games. I presume you have a pile of ongoing lawsuits to Nintendo aswell for not seeing the endgame of Super Mario as it was too hard?

 

Yeah, all that looks bad when you don't put the original comment I replied to with it. The comment with the general gist of "I should have access to more content than you because I work harder than you".

 

Which, if we're just talking about end-game hardmode rewards and items... Sure. But, content. The story, the fun... That shouldn't be limited to raid-only; where, in essence, I have to put in the time of another job just to enjoy some content.

 

So, as the state of the game stands, we're sowing the seeds of a useless argument. But, I don't want to find myself like I did in WoW, where just to see some content in a dungeon; I had to prove my gearscore was high enough, that I'd not make any mistakes, that I understood that we weren't taking our time, that I'd name my firstborn George... You get the picture.

[JayStonesen]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this announcement was made in my guild.

 

As it stands, the only crafting profession that brings a noticeable edge to end game progression is Biochem, so having a Rakata medpack/stim and adrenal appropriate to your class is now mandatory for Ops in my guild.

 

I'm going to give it a week or two before dropping Artifice as I figure it'll take about that long to get everything going. Hopefully, by then, Bioware will address this.

 

And note, I certainly don't condone this policy, but this is hardcore raiding for you. I would stand up to my guildmaster/find a new guild if I saw any reason to keep Artifice. As it stands, there's no benefit to having this skill after you hit 50. While that's more of an Artifice issue, maybe, I think Biochem does 'suffer' from being a little too useful... and now, potentially, I might suffer for it too.

 

 

Hey mate! try to read the crafting guide in here and let the rest of your guild do the same: you will learn how to get high level items. Decrafting here is MUCh different that wow, You do not only get materials, but an upgraded version of the original item (there is a change to get a better schematic).

[Vamelia]

Okay so all professions have an equal benefit, that is what ideally you want from a game. Say that it is true right now, your raiding character then should be expected to have 3 crew skills with benefit and 0 gathering. So right now arguing about needing biochem would then be a I need X, Y and Z to raid.

 

Someone brought up earlier the wow professions, okay so say you come to a raid with mining the truth for most guilds who expect competative progress you would be told to ditch that unless maybe you are a tank and that is a stretch.

 

So yeah I get why a guild would want you to take biochem right now but who said you had to drop another maxed non gathering skill? If anything you should be able to get an alt high enough to get a ship and have them lvl your farming skills especially things like investigation you just funnel credits in from a main. It is called character support and failing that there is a thing called a market where you can buy mats. Not ideal but there is a price to raid other then repair money.

 

Should you have to roll biochem to raid? no but if you want a competative guild you need to follow the rules of said guild. You want to do as you please you find a guild that matches your ideals it is as simple as that sadly.

[Hunbun]

I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I would quit a guild like that in a heartbeat. What a bunch of morons, do they want everyone in the game to have biochem?

[Dietyz]

All the people postin in this thread are prob people that arent even in a guild, just because people want their guild mates to min max doesnt make them dumb, it means they dont wanna carry someone who isnt going to work as hard as the rest of the guild

[Exertim]

You can really tell who is new to the MMO genre by some of the replies in this thread.

[Amiracle]

I would say that in your guild the only players are the leader and his friends.

 

The rest are basicly viewed as companions.

[Natarii]

Okay so all professions have an equal benefit, that is what ideally you want from a game. Say that it is true right now, your raiding character then should be expected to have 3 crew skills with benefit and 0 gathering. So right now arguing about needing biochem would then be a I need X, Y and Z to raid.

 

 

Cropped just this for brevity and the point of my counter. The current system ONLY allows each character to have ONE crafting skill (which is what is causing all this debate). With a potential change that could theoretically make all crewskills roughly equal in terms of personal benefit at end game, it would be impossible to expect any one character to have more than 1 crafting skill at a time. This is needed for diversification and a healthy player interaction and economy. I would hope that they will leave gathering/mission skills as is, and NOT include some perk or benefit to one over the others - alternatively, give ALL skills, crafting, gathering, and missions some benefit. Again, balance should be the name of the game. There should be no clear front runner. Each player should be able to pick their skills based on their own personal preference and playstyle, without feeling gimped by doing so.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Natarii

[lordniah]

Not always. Developers commonly put in bosses that are basically just straight up DPS checks (often referred to as gear checks). Minimal strategy, maximum dps fights.

 

 

Yes, but this is a Bioware game. Every Bioware game since BG1 has always required strategy. If you have the right strategy, then things become easy.

Edited January 11, 2012 by lordniah

[Exertim]

Yes, but this is a Bioware game. Every Bioware game since BG1 have always required strategy. If you have the right strategy, then things become easy.

 

This is fine and all but literally every hard mode and nightmare mode boss in EV (as well as Rancor) is simply just a gear/dps check. There are no new mechanics introduced in the higher difficulties, just a tighter enrage timer and higher boss damage/HP.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Exertim

[Elyree]

This is fine and all but literally every hard mode and nightmare mode boss in EV (as well as Rancor) is simply just a gear/dps check. There are no new mechanics introduced in the higher difficulties, just a tighter enrage timer and higher boss damage/HP.

 

You do know that phase 3 of the first boss in Eternity Vault is a pure, straight up DPS check, right? No strategy, just a check on whether you can burn him down before he kills your raid or not.

[lordniah]

This is fine and all but literally every hard mode and nightmare mode boss in EV (as well as Rancor) is simply just a gear/dps check. There are no new mechanics introduced in the higher difficulties, just a tighter enrage timer and higher boss damage/HP.

 

Oh really? I just beat battle of ilum last night with a party of 3 new 50s and 1 48/49 tank wearing lvl 42 gear. I'm sure the operations require better geared players, but they probably don't require optimal builds.

 

[edit]

 

I'm not saying that optimizing builds are a waste, only that you probably don't and shouldn't need to do it to beat content so long as you use sound strategy and people play their roles.

 

This is after all not a Blizzard game, despite many similarities.

Edited January 11, 2012 by lordniah

[Statements]

Im 400 biochem, i just make sure I supply the entire raid with several 2hr stims and several adrenals and med packs.

 

Costs me about 100k a raid to do this but it helps.

[Kellour]

Ultimately, while every Crew Skill should have a perk that makes it unique, Bioware also needs to ensure that the perk that Crew Skill provides, has some utilitarian applications in the Endgame environment.

 

If the only perk to say, Armor crafting is the ability to have Custom Looks, this clearly provides no quantifiable benefit in an end-game scenario, and therefore won't appeal to the folks doing the Endgame content.

 

That's the problem Bioware needs to fix. It's great that there are unique elements to the various crafting skills (BoP items, Crew-Skill Only items etc.) but again, if they have no game-mechanic oriented benefit at Endgame, they'll just get passed up for the 1 that does, which is clearly already happening.

[Lostkitty]

Tell your guild to shove it where the sun doesn't shine... there's plenty of other guilds out there... the day a guild tells you how to play the game and you actually listen is the day your not playing a game anymore, your working in a Job

[Velisael]

If that's the requirement of the guild, then I think that's an issue with the guild. Skill will always outweigh the consumables people need in end game raids. That being said though, all these people who are all "elitists are mean, blah blah blah" clearly don't understand that certain groups of people like to accomplish tasks with efficiency.

 

If you want to wipe on a boss 30 times because you have some people who aren't willing to keep themselves alive or learn the fight, that's up to you, but if you are in a guild who wants to one shot bosses and to get the best gear in the game as fast as they can, you either put up and shut up and do what you're supposed to, or you join a casual guild and gear up in 6 months instead of 1.

 

+1

 

This intial forum post is not a problem exclusively caused by unbalanced crew skills. Yes, I will agree for the most part the crew skills need some tweaking (not a revamp as most people want). However, a guild saying "No Biochem, No Raid" is more related to the two different types of cultures that are knocking heads in this community.

 

Guys remember, this game was marketed across as a game for everybody (a very good marketing ploy!). There would be something for everybody. Thus we have HC and casual players alike. Even if Biochem was not as "overly useful" as people say it is, HC guilds will examine the current game mechanics and make the best crew skill mandatory to raid anyways. Even if the benefit was marginal.

 

So yes, you can implore BioWare to look at this post and execute a plan to "buff" all other crew skills. But if I were BioWare, I would simply retort, this is a case of different mindsets and goals, and you really cannot satisfy everybody. You can try, but you will never fully do it.

 

Again, crew skills need to be buffed, but this is not a reason to do so. This post only encourages one thing; figure if the poster is HC or casual or somewhere in between. His guild sounds HC and elite... Just maybe not a good fit.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Velisael