The Expertise stat has to go...

[Husanak]

I don't want to have to spend 16 hours a day farming just to lose by someone who only plays for forty-five minutes every other day! Keep the stats, how else will I know I'm better than others?

 

LOL Made me smile good there.

 

Very good point... arguing for PvP stats is pretty funny in itself. "I don't want that dirty PvE player to beat me!.... "

 

It is almost laughable right. Those of us that PvP a ton understand the game mechanics, we are not going to get beat by players that PvP for a couple matches here and there. Of course if our gear allows us to wreak them in seconds while taking no real dmg... it completely cheapens the win for me at least... and those PvE players don't que and we all get to play Hutt ball Over and Over and Over again.

 

I don't expect Expertise will change either... I'll have my full set like every other monkey. Doesn't mean I have to like wearing the PvP uniform... and Knowing I will only be PvPing with my other hardcore PvP friends... cause my PvE friends won't come close to PvP...

 

The thing with PvP stats is they get exaggerated by the community in general. 6 Months from now PvE people will tell new players "Don't bother with the PvP in this game... unless you have 4 months to grind gear by dying hard in every match you enter too grind the gear because it gives everyone super powers." lol

It might not be 100% true but the effect will be the same... the PvP community locks in too a post launch pop 4 or 5 months from now... and slowly looses people over 2 or 3 years... until Bio hardly bothers updating PvP content anymore.

 

I don't say I hate the idea of Expertise because I suck at PvP... or I want to be able to que once a day ect ect... its because I want NEW players to que... I want to face them in semi even odds... (My thousands of hours of general PvP experience... faster reflexes... better knowledge of this game... and wise gear and build Decisions... Will mean I will still Wreck them hard. They simply won't wine about my gear afterwards.

 

To sum it up I want my Tears feed too me in a pure form. lol

Edited January 6, 2012 by Husanak

[Tighe-Chimaera]

Instead of adding a pvp stat in mmos developers should instead make pvp and pve provide same rewards, thus making people able to do both aspects of end game the way they want to.

 

I agree with this. The endgame gear should be the same no matter how it's earned/used.

[Jpope]

If Bio had any vision... they would have done away with the idea of a PvP stat... and designed a PvE Stat. A way to make 30 30 30 stats on both gear... with PvE raid gear that adds 10% bonuses too PvE content. That would have been the fix.... PvP stats are the completely wrong way to go about it... No NPC is going to wine that that fully geared raid group is smacking em 10% harder.

 

I would love to see that implemented. That seems like an interesting idea.

[MandoArc]

This makes no sense.. raiders get their gear from raiding (if all they want to do is raid), if they want to pvp as well then they are in the same boat as the rest of us. I am not sure how the pvp gear is for raiding but there is an outside chance that if raiders wanted to be top tier in both raiding and pvp then they will have to grind out 2 sets of gear.

 

I kind of agree with the OP, there is no need for a pvp only stat. They only thing that is needed is for top end pvp gear to = raid gear. The reason wow added resilience is because people decked out in top end raid gear were blowing people up in pvp, if wow had just made the top end pvp gear = top end raid gear then both side would have been happy (you get your gear your way and I will get mine my way ).

 

 

AMEN to the brother thes what i'am talking about we dont need a pvp only stats what we need is a CHOISE IF I DONT WANT TO RAID EVERYDAY CUZ I MY BE BORE LET ME PVP AND GET GEAR SAME LEVEL US RAID GEAR SO I CAN RAID IF I WANT TO OR PVP IF I WANT TO

 

 

Sorry to say this

 

Put i wish to god we had STAR WARS GALAXIES GEAR SYSTEM where every gear is good for everything not only good for pve put not for pvp or good for pvp and not for pve

 

and Crafters made the best gear or close to the best so raider gear and pvp gear can still do good

 

 

LOVE STAR WARS GALAXIES

[CapuchinSeven]

Totally agree, 100%. I couldn't agree more. HATE the PVP crutch that is a PVP stat.

 

I'd FAR rather see Expertise as a PVE damage/heal/damage reduction boost stat for flashpoint/operation's only. So raid gear has a +10/20/30 boost to for raid content only. Then PVP gear and everything else can still give you raid like stats but without that extra boost that you'd get in PVE.

 

I have zero idea how hard that is for MMO developers to work out.

[Almghty_gir]

Let expertise go? Do you guys not even understand that stat?

 

If they're were not expertise, people doing operations would be facerolling you even more. At least with the expertise gear, the pvp community has a chance.

 

i've disproved this over and over and over. you're wrong.

[Warhunt]

To guys that qq about Expertise , dont play mmo for pvp ever again because with out Expertise so you can't last longer in pvp you would get 1 shoted and puting more stm on gear wont fix anything much.

 

If you dont want to grind pvp best way fix it is make the pvp gear LESS OF a grind make it eassy to get so all the new comers can get there pvp gears eassy.

 

they do this in wow u know only takes a day get 2 best pvp gear

 

i say haveing Expertise is good thing.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Warhunt

[Almghty_gir]

To guys that qq about Expertise , dont play mmo for pvp ever again because with out Expertise so you can't last longer in pvp you would get 1 shoted and puting more stm on gear wont fix anything much.

 

If you dont want to grind pvp best way fix it is make the pvp gear LESS OF a grind make it eassy to get so all the new comers can get there pvp gears eassy.

 

they do this in wow u know only takes a day get 2 best pvp gear

 

i say haveing Expertise is good thing.

 

this isn't wow, expertise isn't resiliance, you're wrong, go away.

[BDutch]

Gear inflation to PvE may be required with expansions, but gear inflation in PvP gives PvP a lifespan that slowly ticks away. New players are the life-blood to PvP. The higher you raise the cap, the less people you will have that play to reach it (in PvP).

 

That's besides the concept that if you really enjoy competition you don't need/want a builtin handicap against your opponent. I don't expect people to change in wanting to pretend they're awesome, but everyone should dislike longer queue times and less competition to play against.

[Exothermix]

admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

 

 

I'm here pretty much to only PvP.

 

PvE geared people getting owned by PvP geared people in PvP makes sense to me.

 

Grind PvE for PvE gear.

 

Grind PvP for PvP gear.

 

Don't see what the issue is?

 

Everyone has the same grind for PvE and PvP?!

 

If you want both then you have to grind both, your advantage in this case is that you can be competitive in both.

[-Arcane-]

A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game.

 

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

 

Even if you did have a 50's only bracket, you'd be creating more problems than you're fixing. Aside from all the obvious queue time issues, the 50's bracket will suffer from the exact same problems we have now; the bracket will divided up into New 50's and Old 50's, ie. people who dont have their 10% Expertise bonus yet, and those that do.

 

But you might say, "Everyone will become an Old 50 eventually." and yes, they might. But then what would be the point in everyone having the same 10% Expertise bonus, when all it's going to do is cancel out everyone elses 10% Expertise bonus. The only outside issue there is that healing will still be 10% stronger, but if you wanted that why wouldn't you just lower the Trauma debuff by 10%?

 

It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea.

 

 

Removing the stat doesn't mean PvP Gear has to go, the point of PvP Gear/Experience/Credits in the first place is so that people who want an alternative to PvE can still progress. There all kinds of stats in this game that mean you could make all kinds of PvP Gear Sets, whether they are Purple or Mods, so people can look however they want to, or however you want them to look, and they can mix and match all these different pieces of gear to whatever their hearts desire. To give you an idea of the combinations of gear that could be possible:

 

- Primary Stat

- Endurance

• Crit Rating
  
• Surge
  
• Alacrity
  
• Power
  

 

Now reverse the Primary Stat and Endurance, so that Endurance is the bigger of the two and look how much choice you have... something for everyone, even. Now when you're 50 and you arent bolstered anymore, you can decide which stat you want more of, in return for lower stats on other stuff, or you can even decide to have an equal balance.

 

A crazy thing, having a choice, isn't it? Like choosing to have Fun over Frustration. Or choosing to resubscribe... or perhaps not.

 

 

 

I'm not even mad.

 

 

Lol, realy?

 

PvP gear is so easy to earn in this game to get to 10%+ expertise bonus takes a week or so.

 

 

Realy dont see the issue here.

 

 

or did you want a fresh 50 to be comparable to a valour 100 battlemaster geared player?

 

 

The advantage is slight, 15% max oh no! good players will still win regardless of expertise.

[Vinushka]

You make a good point in the sense that if everyone has it, it's not really a benefit. At the same time though, not everyone is going to have it. You didn't acknowledge the fact that it could very well take between 1-3 months or more to get a full set of expertise gear based 100% on luck. Some will get it in 1-2 weeks. Others, not so quick. Also the more pieces you get, the lower your chances of getting the final pieces you need, because you can still get pieces for the item slots you already have filled. Pro system, amirite? I think so........not really.

[Almghty_gir]

Lol, realy?

 

The advantage is slight, 15% max oh no! good players will still win regardless of expertise.

 

it's not just 15% though, is it.

 

it's more like 40%.

 

a fresh 50 will be hitting 15% less hard, being hit 15% harder, and the person they're hitting will have a healer who's healing 15% better.

[Delove]

And also to prevent competitive pvpers from being forced to raid.

 

Seriously, no one seems to remember the old days when the raiders would dominate PvP based on gear advantages and everyone would whine about that.

 

The game is built around gear progression. Having two different paths for PvE and PvP is a good thing because it allows people to focus on what they like to do without feeling like they have to do everything if they don't want to. If you want a completely level playing field from the get go, there are many other different types of PvP games out there.

 

Yeah i remeber pwning people in wow battlegrounds in full raid gear now it's a joke to go in with raid gear lol

[Dwarfy]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

I disagree. In wow at during the lvl 80 expansion, i leveled 1-80 in 2 weeks and got full basic PvP gear 2 weeks later. It was a joke. I barely even played to be honest...

 

It does not take long to get the gear. People are just lazy and want everything instead of putting in any effort.

[Illutian]

The reason for it isn't to help or hinder pvp'ers, it's to prevent raiders from being forced to pvp to remain competitive

 

Um, that doesn't make sense at all. Why would Expertise (a PVP stat) reduce the need for PVE-ers to PVP to remain competitive in PVP.

 

What you should have said was:

 

It's to prevent Raiders from being OP because they have access to BiS gear through the raids they complete

 

The sole reason for any PVP stat is to make a distinction between PVE gear and PVP gear. WoW made the mistake of nothing having it in the beginning. So the BiS was to get top-end tear gear through the 40man raids.

 

Didn't have a guild, or a guild that could progress like that? Well, have fun being a free HK.

 

At least with PVP gear you can get it on your own, or with a few friends (Arena Gear).

 

But, seriously, how would all of you like to have to go Raid on ALL of your alts you want to pvp with? Hmm? ya, didn't think so.

[Arutassin]

The OP is right. PvP rewards should be vanity based such as titles or visually different gear that has the same stats as other PvP gear. PvP in game where PvP gear has a PvP stat is never based on skill but instead on what gear people have. This gear is earned by investing time and again not skill. Anyone can spend hours and hours in BG's and get the points they need to get gear. This doesn't have to involve skill all that is required is time.

 

PvPers sometime say if there is no reward what's the point in playing. The point of playing is to enjoy playing and enjoy bating other players. Any in game reward you get server no purpose outside the game and causes in game imbalance inside the game. PvP should be played for the enjoyment of playing not for rewards that make it easier for you to kill payers who have played the game less. If you want to get rewards and feel "Progression" play PvE. The whole mechanic of PvE is based on getting better gear to take on harder encounters. This is not needed in PvP as in PvP each encounter is different as it is played by a real person whose actions are to an extent unpredictable. True PvPers want to be better than their opponent. They want to overcome odds and to win when they are the underdog. There is no pride in being over geared and slaughtering people who don't stand a chance. True competitors should not want to to get gear that makes their victory hollow as they statistically were always going to win based on their gear. They should want to against al odds come out on top despite the gear they are wearing.

[Arutassin]

Um, that doesn't make sense at all. Why would Expertise (a PVP stat) reduce the need for PVE-ers to PVP to remain competitive in PVP.

 

What you should have said was:

 

 

 

The sole reason for any PVP stat is to make a distinction between PVE gear and PVP gear. WoW made the mistake of nothing having it in the beginning. So the BiS was to get top-end tear gear through the 40man raids.

 

Didn't have a guild, or a guild that could progress like that? Well, have fun being a free HK.

 

At least with PVP gear you can get it on your own, or with a few friends (Arena Gear).

 

But, seriously, how would all of you like to have to go Raid on ALL of your alts you want to pvp with? Hmm? ya, didn't think so.

 

The way around this is so simple and does not require a PvP stat in any way shape or form. PvP and PvE gear sets should have thee same stats on but have different titles. for example and using made up names PvP set 1 should have the same stats as PvE set 1. One would be attainable via PvE and the other Via PvP. If you play PvP or PvE you can see how a friendly player got his gear (PvP or PvE by the gear set name).

 

Now PvPers and PvErs all have a route to get gear. The gear however does not cause a massive imbalance issue as new PvPers and missing a stat that long time PvPers already have stacked.

 

An even more fair way is to give instanced PvP players a PvP set that is normalised. That way all PvPers are on the same playing field and skill comes through, not gear. GW2 has a really good system in line that will use this. They are planning completely balanced and normalised instanced PvP with world PvP using gear stats and not being intensively balance.

 

Seems like an amazing approach.

[Illutian]

The OP is right. PvP rewards should be vanity based such as titles or visually different gear that has the same stats as other PvP gear. PvP in game where PvP gear has a PvP stat is never based on skill but instead on what gear people have. This gear is earned by investing time and again not skill. Anyone can spend hours and hours in BG's and get the points they need to get gear. This doesn't have to involve skill all that is required is time.

 

PvPers sometime say if there is no reward what's the point in playing. The point of playing is to enjoy playing and enjoy bating other players. Any in game reward you get server no purpose outside the game and causes in game imbalance inside the game. PvP should be played for the enjoyment of playing not for rewards that make it easier for you to kill payers who have played the game less. If you want to get rewards and feel "Progression" play PvE. The whole mechanic of PvE is based on getting better gear to take on harder encounters. This is not needed in PvP as in PvP each encounter is different as it is played by a real person whose actions are to an extent unpredictable. True PvPers want to be better than their opponent. They want to overcome odds and to win when they are the underdog. There is no pride in being over geared and slaughtering people who don't stand a chance. True competitors should not want to to get gear that makes their victory hollow as they statistically were always going to win based on their gear. They should want to against al odds come out on top despite the gear they are wearing.

 

So, when Raiders come in and say...

 

-dish out 100k crits 30% of the time (heal or damage)

-tank you entire team through parries/deflects/dodges

 

we, players that either:

 

a) don't want to raid

b) can't get top-end gear (say like a small guild)

 

Dead serious, what are they suppose to do? Just have fun being farmed at the spawn point?

 

And don't act dumb people, everyone knows for a fact that people will take advantage of any system.

[Daegil]

What many PvP stat defenders fail to realize that a PvP stat causes a huge gap between PvP and PvE. The developers put hard work (some may argue otherwise) to make the game and its content. Why should you be locked out of the PvE because you spend more time in PvP and vice versa? If both paths had the same rewards then you could easily go raid on one week and then pvp the next without being penalized. Mix and match, see what the game has to offer, not just half of it!

[Orangerascal]

i've disproved this over and over and over. you're wrong.

 

i disapprove you're disapproving of it without a valid argument.

[Orangerascal]

What many PvP stat defenders fail to realize that a PvP stat causes a huge gap between PvP and PvE. !

 

 

umm no is doesn't have you even looked at the gear that comes from heroics and operations. They make battlemaster gear look like lvl 50 greens.

 

Most pvp/pve high valour lvl 50's are mixing and matching for the set bonuses.

 

compare the heroic rakata chest: http://www.torhead.com/item/9KmbAiu/rakata-survivors-robe

 

to:

 

battle master chest: http://www.torhead.com/item/9mlzpng/battlemaster-survivors-robe

 

Now think of the operation level gear..

 

 

The alternative solution to expertise is a pve version of expertise to prevent pve gear from scaling radically. Same solution with a different feel.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Makayla]

Keep expertise as it is and add some of it (below the value of the endgame gear) on the lower items. PVP needs some sort of advancement and the gear really is damn easy to get so there really is no need for all this complaining once the level 50 brackets will be in.

 

Want better PVP gear then PVP! You PVEers would cry if you would only get the same gear from the hardest ops as you get from flashpoints. PVP without any kind of advancement/rewards is simply meh. Raid gear (which has better base stats!) still is a viable choice for PVP.

[Illutian]

The way around this is so simple and does not require a PvP stat in any way shape or form. PvP and PvE gear sets should have thee same stats on but have different titles. for example and using made up names PvP set 1 should have the same stats as PvE set 1. One would be attainable via PvE and the other Via PvP. If you play PvP or PvE you can see how a friendly player got his gear (PvP or PvE by the gear set name).

 

Now PvPers and PvErs all have a route to get gear. The gear however does not cause a massive imbalance issue as new PvPers and missing a stat that long time PvPers already have stacked.

 

An even more fair way is to give instanced PvP players a PvP set that is normalised. That way all PvPers are on the same playing field and skill comes through, not gear. GW2 has a really good system in line that will use this. They are planning completely balanced and normalised instanced PvP with world PvP using gear stats and not being intensively balance.

 

Seems like an amazing approach.

 

That means I get to team up with a group of friends and afk in a WZ.

 

That's why PVP gear can NEVER be equal to PVE gear (except for item level). I mean like right now I could just afk in a WZ and end up with full Raid-Gear-with-different-name-and-look. Does that sound fair to those who spend hours reading up on a Raid then devising how to break up the raid group and then more hours to actually finish the instance?

[MarcoMontana]

It's a stupid stat, and bad for the game.

 

 

 

I agree with this! I want the best in slot gear I can get for my class / play style, I don't want to have to change gear because while waiting for a WZ que Im PvEing...

 

It's just dumb, best in slot gear is best in slot gear! Then the rest is based on SKILL, not whom have the most stupid stat on their gear.