The Expertise stat has to go...

[Okamakiri]

I haven't read all the messages in this thread so I dunno if someone has already mentioned this: What about the Guild Wars model?

 

In that game everyone in pvp had the same level gear i.e. two rangers had identical stats on their gear, two mesmers had the same etc. In this venue pvp was one based only on knowledge + skill, no gear advantage whatsoever was included. Everyone entered the battle on equal footing.

 

Subsequently, the rewards in that game were purely aesthetic, but were cool enough to make the grind rewarding. I know I spent more time then I should have grinding to get the look I wanted.

 

I apologize if this has already been discussed, otherwise I would like to know why this might or might not work.

 

But then they wouldn't have an advantage over people who don't pvp all day long. It's not about skill, it's about gear!

[BDutch]

I disagree. I mean, yeah sure, a PvP stat is kind of a dumb idea. But what else would we do? PvP needs a reward system, just like PvE...

 

PvE rewards are designed to gate content so that PvE difficulty is not trivial and people don't end up skipping/missing the content that they're playing for.

 

PvP doesn't need to gate content--the WZ you play at 10 are the same you play at 50. Difficulty is based on your opponent(s).

 

Gear treadmills in PvP do not enable you to do anything you haven't already done before. It would be like if at 50 in PvE you started your class quest line over and everything was scaled starting at 50. (IE a complete waste of time)

Edited January 24, 2012 by BDutch

[aleiro]

guys PVP gear rewards YES! why not, let's get some *********** awesome gear as pvp reward

 

but

 

expertise, NO!

 

and while we are at it:

 

cool aesthetic rewards, YES!

Cool vehicle rewards, YES!

Other fun stuff like fireworks flare guns and all kinds of silly stupid things as rewards, yes!

[Fidasaind]

Raid gear vs people who do not want to raid

 

WoW calls it Resilience

Rift calls it Valor

TOR calls it Expertise

 

This. If they make PvP gear as good as raid gear (without needing a PvP stat) then raiders will be angry that you can bring BM armor to raids. If they remove expertise and leave the stats as is, then raid gear will be better and PvPers will be angry that they have to raid to compete.

 

PvP stats are there to let PvP fans play the game the way they want without interfering with raiders... at least in a game with gear driven progression. If a developer wanted to go with more of a Dark Age of Camelot style (you progress by earning abilities as you play the end game rather than by earning new gear), we probably would not need these PvP stats. But it seems like everyone wants to do gear based progression nowadays.

[Okamakiri]

If they make PvP gear as good as raid gear (without needing a PvP stat) then raiders will be angry that you can bring BM armor to raids.

 

Not at all. If anything, more raiders may take part in PVP to supplement their PVE gear with some PVP gear as well, which is a win for PVPers too. People should have the freedom to play all parts of the game without penalty. Freedom is a wonderful thing. Ron Paul 2012

[Eranus]

In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.

The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.

[Okamakiri]

In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.

The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.

 

The problem with this suggestion that keeps getting brought up, is that it still creates segregation of players and a requirement to have separate sets for PVP and PVE. I see so many people saying it's the way it should be (and bringing up other games as if their similarly flawed system is a good example), yet none of them give a good reason as to why it's necessary to be this way. I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.

[kirin_tor]

I've played my share of other mmo's

and I'll admit I have time clocked into WoW more than the others,

so first off I'll apologize for a bit of a history lecture on another game

 

this game is set based around gear as its primary attribute, and as such will always have some of the inherent flaws that can't be worked out the way CoH handled it (though they

are changing/have changed their carrot on a stick model too)

 

in WoW, I'll admit I actually enjoyed having the option of using my Warlord's set

into MC and BWL and being not only competative but often superior

(partially because they hadn't matured what stats for what class and such)

but I did note some of the flaws too,

 

Dual Usage

 

I was fortunate to play on a non-top tier server so I was able to work my way up the ladder fairly easy by comparasson to others, (really when naxx v1 came out, there was only 2 guilds on the server who even entered enough to call it progression)

 

had it been on another where AQ40 was farmed by many, I imagine going up the ladder would be difficult, and an even steeper barrier to entry. This was also during high school when I had a lot more time so I could work up the ladder more.

 

availability

 

in the first expansion, bliz added resilience, and also had resilience items drop in pve

activities as well, this unfortunately was not met with a lot of favour from the pve-only players, who felt cheated when one of their drop slots was used up by a resilience item.

 

something else they did was change pvp to a currency attaining model,

I thought this was great, and also they had the original vision that

they would be similar in previous tier competition

 

for example,

Level 2 pvp set would perform about as well as Level 1 pve in a raid setting

while

Level 2 pve set would perform about as well as Level 1 pvp in a raid setting

 

the pvp stat allowed for this off set

 

this was great for my purposes as I was playing both at the same time,

and what I didn't get from raid I could fill in from pvp, and other way around

so that I could select my purchases for pvp to suit biggest upgrade in functionality

if I already had something pve, but decently pvp useable in a slot

 

but as someone else mentioned it also creates an issue where the PVE-only

players feel either feel cheated, or they feel like they need/should pvp for the sake

of making runs smoother.

 

my rogue was a great example, because of random drops, and number of drops per raid

getting swords were hard, and by the time they did drop, I was already bounds beyond it

because I just attained pvp swords which are guaranteed since its currency purchased

and functional (often they were superior to what was available in raid too)

 

and honestly, I understand why pve-only players would be upset its, true that pve

has a much higher social requirement

 

in pvp, while premades will generally perform better, there is the option of queueing solo.

 

where as in pve, you cannot run it solo (not current activities atleast)

you cannot be certain you'll fill gearholes/attain an upgrade

and if it does drop, it may go to another player.

 

and thus, you'd have people like my rogue's mage partner who _only_ pvp'd for the purpose of ensuring the option of filling slots, doing the 10 games every monday

(tuesday was when pvp currency was given out for the week)

 

even though this wasn't the ideal situation, I feel it is the best or a bad scenario

 

(unfortunately WoW did not keep this model, and things have gotten worse and there is a more clear divide between those that do pvp only, those that do pve only, there are cross overs, but not as much)

 

without the WoW history lesson

IMO from my experience:

 

keep entry levels low, when new content and gear levels increase, ensure that previous level sets (or equivalent) become super easy to attain (like, an evening or two, not full days or weeks)

 

pvp stat is good if it will be managed properly,

keeps pvp advantage to pvp, at the cost of pve performance,

but not so far as it becomes a massive barrier

(IE in WoW now where going in with pve gear will get you two shotted)

 

what this means is that they have to either keep the power gains low, or

push endurance to keep up with it (but because this would cause issues for tanking, its better to just keep the power growth low)

 

of course, this doesn't make as an appealing carrot on a stick, really its a hard thing to do

but I feel this is the least bad option

 

YMMV

[Norril]

No it stays! I didn't get my butt whipped for a week straight to have my expertise taken away from me! You become num to losing when trying to grind for your battlemaster gear. You just need to suck it up and get your PVP gear. It's the only thing that counters Raid gear which I personally HATE raiding.

 

You complaining about Expertise is like a PvPer complaing about being forced to go through Raids in order to get gear. Sorry!

 

or being forced to grind for crafted gear...

 

Every MMO is designed around the concept of grind. Grind to achieve. Work your way up from the mail room to CEO, etc. Easy, simple, repeatable and brainless. It is what sells. Wow proved it and this confirms it.

[Kyrinic]

That's right, it discourages new people trying pvp the longer it stays in the game.

 

You have to be level 50 to get it...new players won't face it until they hit 50.

[Kyrinic]

In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.

The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.

 

The vast majority of 50s on my server have at least 6% to pvp stats. Everyone is capable of getting expertise gear. Today alone you can get 8 Champ bags just from the quests.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kyrinic

[Darguth]

I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.

 

Then it becomes a requirement that the time and effort to acquire these generally-equivalent pieces of gear is nearly identical. Which is rather hard to accomplish. Otherwise whichever route is easier will generally make players feel "required" to participate in that type of gameplay in order to be competitive in their desired field of play.

 

PVP-gained gear easier to obtain? Raiders feel forced to PVP.

 

PVE-ganed gear easier to obtain? PVPers feel forced to raid.

[Luriol]

A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game.

 

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

 

Even if you did have a 50's only bracket, you'd be creating more problems than you're fixing. Aside from all the obvious queue time issues, the 50's bracket will suffer from the exact same problems we have now; the bracket will divided up into New 50's and Old 50's, ie. people who dont have their 10% Expertise bonus yet, and those that do.

 

But you might say, "Everyone will become an Old 50 eventually." and yes, they might. But then what would be the point in everyone having the same 10% Expertise bonus, when all it's going to do is cancel out everyone elses 10% Expertise bonus. The only outside issue there is that healing will still be 10% stronger, but if you wanted that why wouldn't you just lower the Trauma debuff by 10%?

 

It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea.

 

 

Removing the stat doesn't mean PvP Gear has to go, the point of PvP Gear/Experience/Credits in the first place is so that people who want an alternative to PvE can still progress. There all kinds of stats in this game that mean you could make all kinds of PvP Gear Sets, whether they are Purple or Mods, so people can look however they want to, or however you want them to look, and they can mix and match all these different pieces of gear to whatever their hearts desire. To give you an idea of the combinations of gear that could be possible:

 

- Primary Stat

- Endurance

• Crit Rating
  
• Surge
  
• Alacrity
  
• Power
  

 

Now reverse the Primary Stat and Endurance, so that Endurance is the bigger of the two and look how much choice you have... something for everyone, even. Now when you're 50 and you arent bolstered anymore, you can decide which stat you want more of, in return for lower stats on other stuff, or you can even decide to have an equal balance.

 

A crazy thing, having a choice, isn't it? Like choosing to have Fun over Frustration. Or choosing to resubscribe... or perhaps not.

 

 

 

I'm not even mad.

 

I cant agree anymore with Expertise needs too get deleted from the PvP gear. by the simple facts.

 

1. it makes the PvP'ing not about skill but about gear, all you need is too be DPS and have full pvp gear. and you can kill anyone due too the bonus you get from your gear.

 

2. all the pvp players that says its unfair too remove it coruse they worked for it, is kinda BS. they dont loss their gear only that 1 stat. they still have gear that is just as good as raiding gear.. and wen they dont wana do raids then why whine over the raid gear?, the pvp gear stats is fine and good if you like pvping only. i personaly like both pvp and raiding.. but i want a game where pvping is about skills and not gear. any good pvper will allways kill the dude in raid gear with or without the expertise rateing.

 

3. and its a waste of time for us who both like too raid and pvp abit then why do we need 2 sets of full armor on us all the time? to be able too defend our self in pvp..

 

therfor i think Expertise needs too get removed

[Daraco]

The problem with this suggestion that keeps getting brought up, is that it still creates segregation of players and a requirement to have separate sets for PVP and PVE. I see so many people saying it's the way it should be (and bringing up other games as if their similarly flawed system is a good example), yet none of them give a good reason as to why it's necessary to be this way. I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.

 

This is not a problem! this segregation MUST exist PVP and PVE are two very distinct play systems. You dont want PvP players getting Raid gear without actually raiding the same reason you don't want a PVE player gearing without ever PvPing.

 

The issue is that for new people( By new i mean players who may already have several geared 50s but are fresh 50 on an alt) who join must work to be on a competing level and this goes against the idea of PvP which is "Balance". The expertise stat breaks the "Balance" by not allowing an under geared player to compete with a geared play regardless of player skill.

 

this said, gear is the primary force behind PvP progression but i bet the majority of PvP players would prefer a scoreboard or ranking system as signs of progression than by what gear they have.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Daraco

[Okamakiri]

Then it becomes a requirement that the time and effort to acquire these generally-equivalent pieces of gear is nearly identical. Which is rather hard to accomplish. Otherwise whichever route is easier will generally make players feel "required" to participate in that type of gameplay in order to be competitive in their desired field of play.

 

PVP-gained gear easier to obtain? Raiders feel forced to PVP.

 

PVE-ganed gear easier to obtain? PVPers feel forced to raid.

 

Agreed, but I think the effort to balance that is worth the benefits, and it would solve so many other problems that it would free up development time to dedicate to balancing gear acquisition in different aspects of the game. Besides, balancing gear progression in all parts of the game should be done regardless. Currently, as a solo player, it seems easier to obtain top PVP gear then PVE, because even a solo player who continuosly fails at WZs can eventually reach his goal. It may be more time consuming, but it's just a grind, it doesn't require skill or other people. Being skilled and having friends will just get you there faster.

[Muckbeast]

I have ~10% from expertise and I still think this stat needs to go.

 

I don't want to have to build at least four sets of gear:

 

• PvP tanking.
  
• PvP damage
  
• PvE tanking
  
• PvE damage
  

 

 

Seriously? That's sucktacular.

 

I don't need a bonus PvP stat on my gear to beat people.

[Kwll]

A pvp stat is not necessary at all. Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer two games with pvp at there core didn't have a pvp stat. That doesn't mean you don't reward people for engaging in pvp but the improved statistics for having the more advanced pvp gear is plenty enough of a reward. This is all the cause of people aping WoW blindly.

[Kwll]

No. They became welfare epics when the system that was originally very hard and time consuming, 2 and a half to 3 months, was nerfed down to a set amount of honor you had to earn. The old system was fine because even if you afk'd for 3 months or longer to get the best gear (that wasn replaced around the time AQ40 came out) most people that got it honestly via PvE already had on par gear.

 

The problem with gear with no PvP stat is how do you balance it without affecting PvE? Alot of people would say just load it up with endurance. But then why would a PvE'er not just use PvP gear with extraordinary amounts of health on the gear?

 

Personally I really like the Experise stat but I wouldnt mind something a little different. I'm not really sure what else I would suggest so until that's found this is fine.

 

Why does it effecting pve matter at all? Its up to the developers to make sure the gear gained through pvp and pve are comparable and one isn't too much easier to get then the other. The only objective way to figure out how hard it is to get something is to look at how long it would take in game hours played to get it. The developers can run the numbers and get fairly close. Its totally ludicrous to say pvp or pve is "harder". People can't see through there own biases its a joke. A pvp stat is a lazy fix. If developers actually could make there games interesting and stop trying to make the basis for these games grinding things people wouldn't spend two seconds crying about somebody getting the same gear as them for doing the things they like to do.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kwll

[Armethious]

A pvp stat is not necessary at all. Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer two games with pvp at there core didn't have a pvp stat. That doesn't mean you don't reward people for engaging in pvp but the improved statistics for having the more advanced pvp gear is plenty enough of a reward. This is all the cause of people aping WoW blindly.

 

There is only a subset of players that will continue to PvP if there is not some sort of tangible reward that goes beyond aesthetics. If you want a rich, vibrant PvP scene with a myriad of people involved, you have to include the PvE players who will only PvP casually or as a secondary focus to their PvE endeavours. That type of player will only do so en mass if there is some sort of tangible reward like gear upgrades.

 

If you want a small tight knit group where you only go against the same people over and over again, then sure, drop the expertise stat and allow no meaningful upgrades or gear progression from PvP.

 

If there were no real upgrades from PvP, no gear progression, I would never PvP. I enjoy improving my character with better stats, not just some flavorful title I can tack onto my name. Bioware has already established that gear progression will be part of their PvP model. You just need to accept that. Now, if there is going to be gear progression, it HAS to be separate from raid progression. They are two distinct play styles and have different needs. They should NOT result in the exact same gear.

 

Now, all that said, people complaining about expertise as it is currently implemented are complaining about nothing. As it stands right now PvE gear is BETTER then PvP gear of comparable levels for most slots in most circumstances for PvP. Losing the endurance and your primary stat is just not worth the small boost you get from expertise.

[Izariel]

Having an exclusive pvp stat that gives such a large reward is much of the problem we are having with pvp now.

 

Expertise is not necessary. It creates so many problems right now. Things would be so much better with no expertise at all.

[Killadrix]

I have ~10% from expertise and I still think this stat needs to go.

 

I don't want to have to build at least four sets of gear:

• PvP tanking.
  
• PvP damage
  
• PvE tanking
  
• PvE damage
  

 

Seriously? That's sucktacular.

 

I don't need a bonus PvP stat on my gear to beat people.

 

I guess it's a good thing thats not what the PVP stat is there for.

[Killadrix]

Having an exclusive pvp stat that gives such a large reward is much of the problem we are having with pvp now.

 

Expertise is not necessary. It creates so many problems right now. Things would be so much better with no expertise at all.

 

Having no expertise will cause far more problems than having it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Killadrix

[Izariel]

Having no expertise will cause far more problems than having it.

 

How did you come to that conclusion? Right now I can see far more benefit in NOT having it, than in having it. Please explain.

[Dogfatherxx]

Expertise is a crutch that only bad players need. Any skilled PVPer does not need it.

 

Anyone who argues against it and says that they need a "reward" for PVPing just don't understand what it means to be truly competative.

[Armethious]

How did you come to that conclusion? Right now I can see far more benefit in NOT having it, than in having it. Please explain.

 

Then you have not read much on the subject. It has been stated many many many times. I don't really feel like typing out the entire explanation again, but in short, if both PvP and PvE followed the EXACT same gear progression PvE players would feel forced to PvP in order to optimize their PvE performance and PvP players would feel forced to PvE in order to optimize their PvP performance. Forcing someone into a mode of play just to get better at their preferred mode of play just is not right.