Xcore
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Posts posted by Xcore
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Also wen they changed combat was already too late.I will never forgive Turbine for making the best fantasy story (for me) a cheap WOW clone.
I wish if ever Cristofer Tolkien wants to give the rights of SIlmarilion then a good company can make Silmarilion online (epic game).
ps1:i hope it will not take so long to fix this in swtor cause we all know what happend to Lotro (free to play).Also lets hope this will not be Warhammer 2.
ps2:sorry for my English
English is fine, I agree... disappointed with LotRO as well when that came out...
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getting similar **** happening to me constantly, for example escape aka pvp trinket rarely ever works the moment i press it, taking cover and interrupting seems to take forever is well.
it really does ruin the game for me, but the fact that it affects all combat aspects off the game should hopefully prove for it to get fixed or at least properly addressed soon.
also trying to fake cast ppls interupts feels pointless is well, if you cancel before they interrupt you still seem get interrupted. :/
Fake casting is a "no-go" roun' here...
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I advice you to simply play until the free month is up, if they haven't fixed this by that time, just unsub, like I will ( no this is not a threat nor am I hating on the game, I actually love this game really bad and I wish hard that they would fix this, but I can't see myself raiding or PvPing with such a horrid combat.) and problem solved really. I'm almost sure Bioware doesn't come to these forums themselves and they just receive feedback from in game or something else.
Well, we did get response from Georg on Page 123... lets see...
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I would really just like to post this, as I am slightly "p*ssed off" atm. So I have not been playing much over the past couple of days due to my focus on this thread and trying to work on this awareness and resolve this entire issue etc.
But, I just entered a Warezone and "my god" this is so glaringly obvious its amazing... I mean I don't even have to try to notice this, its incredible... within 2 minutes:
Aldaraan Civil War: lvl32 Gunslinger
- I head to middle, because I'm a god **** sheep
- Since everyone Empire plays a Sith Inquisitor, there are a few around the middle
- I do a decent job on rooting one while I run into position (no problems, smooth!)
- I get a good vantage point quickly, set up into cover (cover takes .5 to .8/9 too long)
- Battle going on, few peeps in middle, I kill first target (Sith Inquisitor -- Sorcerer)
- Sith Inquisitor comes out of stealth on me and stuns me (Stupidly I didn't pre-emptively "Hunker Down" or w/e)
-- So far, fairly smooth and you'd have to be "above average" perception to notice any issues --
- Bounty Hunter meanwhile also opened up on me, I just got stunned by the Assassin
- My reaction time (I'm not Professional) is about .6-7 (avg with reg. distraction) after -- (Here is where it goes to ****)
*My immediate reaction/plan, trinket the stun (I am no longer in cover), get into cover, knockback/hunker down, either one first). This should all happen within about 1.5-2 seconds* Trinket = Instant, no GCD, Cover = Instant + 1.5 GCD, Knockback = Instant. So with my speed about 1.8 seconds to 2 seconds "max"*
- So, I hit my PvP Trinket (w/e) within about .6-8 following stun. This is not supposed to trigger GCD
- I spam cover -- nothing happens noticeably for about .4-6 seconds (possibly more)
- Meanwhile Assassin/BH beating on me -- While I'm waiting for my dude to kneel? I'm not sure...
- I am already spamming Knockback ability (sorry pretty intense, I can't watch him kneel and then hit it nice and slow).
- The Cover Ability had a 1.5 GCD trigger which felt like 2.3-2.6 seconds....
- Knockback triggers on my bars! hurrah! -- however, no-one appears to be knocked back NOR did the animation happen! BUT MY CD IS ON IT AS IF IT DID!!?
- About .6-1 second later knockback happens! and the animation is delayed by what feels about .5
I am dead, but the Assassin did get rooted by my knockback, it was worth it... ?
So, basically something that was so simple, should've taken me no more than 1.8-2 seconds to execute (keybound and everything) took me 3.7 (generous) to 4.3 (realistic).
This is UNACCEPTABLY FRUSTRATING...
Alright, I didn't want to rant but I wanted to share what I've just experienced about 5 minutes ago. I am by "far" no PvP Pro but I do have everything (including mounting up etc.) keybound and I am acutely aware of my abilities, timings etc. (or so I believe)...
My point is... what the hell?...
EDIT: Dear god, I just realized how foolish I was... Cover does not have a GCD Trigger... so where did all that time go!? Instant (No GCD) + Instant (No GCD) + Instant (GCD) = 3.8-4.5 seconds?!
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aw...
I was hoping for a lawl. better luck next time, I suppose.
Oh my fiancee and I lol'd, the awesome part is that I couldn't stop watching it for like 2 minutes straight... its hypnotic.
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I think I found a good example of how I feel while PvPing with the current situation of character responsiveness.
Yes, this is a very accurate description -- much "animation", little "control"....
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Understood about the chaining issue. Especially considering that, unless any of us have played all classes and all skils, we will all have the different perceptions based on what we've played.
I think you just outlined why this thread is in bizarro land to some degree. I don't envy the BW devs who are trying to figure out exactly what the heck everyone here is talking about when, as you say, there seem to be many issues at hand. All of them trying to be shoehorned into one "issue".
My main issue with this thread however is that, while alot of good info has been given, there are plenty of posts that seem to be flat out wrong. Such as people implying that charged burst is uninterruptable simply because thermal grenade wont do it. Or a healing spell not landing if you move right as the cast bar completes and it says "interrupted".
In other words, if someone posts a video showing a heal being cast that doesn't land when they move as the bar completes with "interrupted", but I don't experience that ever (and my heals always land even after i move and get the interrupted message), how can that be considered a universal problem for everyone? Or cast bars disappearing when they never do for me?
It would be worthwhile to note that those who chime in with "yes, my skills don't work, BIG problem here" are as useless to this discussion as those who chime in with "nothing to see here, it works great". Without detailed examples, they both are useless yet you tell one type of poster to get out, while letting others who /sign your topic go on spreading half truths at times.
I'm not particularly shy about posting my opinion either. I certainly hope this gets worked out while preserving the design intent of the game.
The video that shows the heal/movement is perfect -- it shows exactly what is meant with responsiveness. Look at how long it takes after the cast is completed for the heal to land... its quite "ridiculous".
I have no idea why you are arguing these facts, you come off as very contrarian to me. There is nothing difficult to understand here, also, yes it is many issues culminating into "one" definable as unresponsive combat system... there is also nothing difficult about this (to understand), to fix, sure is...
Very, very, very important to understand -- if "you" don't experience something that is being discussed here in this thread or seen in a video that "does not" mean that it is not a correct issue. Over the course of this thread we have collectively proven the unresponsive nature of the combat system. And we have give discernible details, which Bioware/Georg should have no problem understanding or deciphering (I would be more than willing to help if desired).
There are not that many posts at all that are flat out wrong, if there are -- please point them out instead of making this blanket statement as I can't help in that case.
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I understand your frustrations xcore, but calling people names doesn't help you.
You've received alot of support and some that have questioned it did so respectfully. I myself have questioned it and come to realize that is does exist, yet at the same time also realize that it isn't universal across all abilities. I've posted as such with my own findings.
By all means whatever issue is at hand here should be addressed. And also, out of objectivity, you should acknowledge that it really isn't universal in all abilties. You have not done that, that i've seen. Instead insisting that everyone who says so just isn't good enough to notice.
I haven't seen you tell those that insist animations can't be interrupted, that they can indeed be interrupted by some abilities. Which adds to the disparate issues here and the overall confusion.
But, if someone, like myself, posts findings that contradict anothers it doesn't mean I am some sort of biodrone or fanboy.
I've criticized alot about this game and will continue to do so. However, this issue is a bit more complex than you and others seem to allude to.
I've had certain abilities interrupt animations every time, others don't. By design or by bug that could use some clarification. I've healed on my sage where even though I move right after the cast bar completes and it says "interrupted", the heal still lands. Contrary to what some have posted.
These experiences aren't a figment of my imagination nor are they of yours. We're both right. It actually proves that some "biodrones" are not that at all. They actually are having very different experiences than you and others or are at least trying to get more specific with regards to abilities. (eg. this ability doesn't interrrupt animation, but this one does rather than the "fix it I can't do anything!!!1" posts)
That is as important to this issue as anything if a solution is to be found.
I am by no means calling all and everyone a Biodrone or labelling them part of the BDF but some I do, as it is painfully obvious.
You, I don't believe I have labelled anything like that and this post of yours does raise some discussion worthy elements. However, I disagree with your main statement. It isn't that "some" interrupts actually interrupt and others don't, in fact "all" interrupts do the job just fine. The issue arises through the chaining of animations, some animations have less of an issue with it than others and thus its less noticeable than others.
So, again... I am by no means at all over-simplifying this very complex issue (in fact a few pages back I list some of the core issues that I believe contribute to the overall problem) and I think that I have a firm grasp on the faultlines. I am not really sure of a solution as it does require some brainstorming with Coding and Net-Coding Professionals and probably Animation Designers.
What I would like you to really understand, this is "not an isolated problem", EVERYONE has it equally. You mention that "some" abilities have it and some do not -- this is my point of contention. All abilities have it as it is part of the Combat Mechanics within the Coding and Game itself. However, on some abilities and ability chains (this is important the chaining) it is less noticeable (or not at all).
Once again, the first step to the solution is to recognize that this is not isolated, its not that poor ol' Xcore and a few hundred people have this issue and millions do not.
Secondly, its important to recognize that it is not that Sith Inquisitor's have it and Bounty Hunters do not. Everyone does, the only note that needs to be made is that "some" abilities and ability chains mask the issue better than others.
I hope this is some food for thought and not too offensive. Also I will reiterate, I will never be shy to call a spade a spade or a Biodrone a Biodrone. At the same time I will never "deliberately" unfairly speak against someone who opposes my opinions or points of view.
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This thread delivers, I haven't had this many lols in a while... and I want a hamburger now... with full features...
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In your opinion only. Remember that, padawan. ONLY in your opinion.
In NO way I authorize you to write/speak in my name.
Drop your arrogance now that a Bioware official answered. Seriously, this is getting old.
No, simply put "no"... get out, you have nothing to say here. My arrogance, ego, ignorance, intelligence or any other personality quality or fault is neither diminished nor increased by a Developer Posting.
What I will say is that you're wrong, 3,970 replies and 174,191 views disagree with you. I am absolutely, smugly, arrogantly and egotistically proclaiming that "Gameplay" IS the MOST important aspect of any action based MMO.
You have no place in this discussion.
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ummm so i was scrolling thro the notes and dude on page123 a bioware dude replyed also do you have a youtube or website because you seem smart and kewl and i would like to sub
He smuggled his post after I said all that... perhaps for that very reason, his post did not appear on Page 123 until the thread was at Page 140 already.
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I don't know if anybody has mentioned it already, but one important aspect of responsiveness is SOUND.
And it is also easy to implement I would imagine and will help a lot until the underlying issues are resolved. What I am talking about is:
-a sound when an action is blocked because the GCD is running
-a sound when a spell-cast is canceled.
-a sound when an non-instant action is blocked because the char was moving
WoW has as GCD block sound the 'clonk' and as a spell-fail/cancel sound the 'whamm'. So you intuitively, subconsciously know exactly what happened and what didn't happen and you can act accordingly.
SWTOR has none of these sounds.
I don't want to bring sound issue and details into this although I agree with your general sentiment.
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Just did some more testing regarding responsiveness.
Made a clip showing my Priest in wow, and a clip of my Sith doing the same move.
It feels like swtor is like me, a little bit slower than the rest of the world (of warcraft).
PS. Addons might not be such a bad idea? Quartz with latencytimer. Love that addon.
Adding this video to OP, very valuable...
To everyone able to showcase these issues in videos, please do so... it is very valuable.
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Update to Original Post
Updated: 12-29-11'
-- Added Georg Zoeller's response from Page 123
-- Added New Quote from Poster Reedful from Page 109 (Professional Gaming Experience, very harsh but stunningly accurate post of the problem at hand in PvP)
-- Added Update Date at top of Post
-- Added other friendly notes on Thread # and Page #s etc.
If you have any ideas how to make the OP more streamlined let me know, I'm trying!
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Didn't read the entire thread so apologize if asked and answered.
I understand the issue the OP is bringing up .. but what I have issue with the things that happen "just prior" to my animations. Example; using Force Charge the MOB takes damage before I even get there... and they die before I actually connect at the end of the fight.
It is probably a symptom on the issue being discussed, I just wanted to add or clarify it.
Thanks!
I "think" this might be unique to gap closing abilities... perhaps to prevent the WoW Warrior Charge issue etc. (please correct if wrong)
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OK, I can't quote my last post because I can't bloody well find it! We really need a working search feature or "View my posts".
Anyway, I had stated yesterday that I had been playing on a 4+ year old computer with an AMD dual core processor, 4 GB of RAM and an 8800GT OC with 512 MB of video RAM. Yesterday I received my new computer. Core i7 2600K, 8 GB of RAM and dual 6850s in Crossfire mode with a total of 2 GB of video RAM.
On my old computer, I had been seeing this issue, but since so many others had been having the same issue, I didn't attribute it to my hardware, primarily. Then lenonk pointed out that he had recently switched from an older laptop with an 8800GT to a newer laptop with, (I think he said) a 6950. He stated that the switch to the newer computer cleared the issue up for him and he speculated if the issue may not be solely game design, but also some hardware induced latency.
So, my girlfriend and I conducted a little experiment. Last night, as I was playing, the game did seem more responsive to me. So I thought perhaps lenonk had been right. However, this evening, my girlfriend logged on my machine and was able to duplicate the issue she's been experiencing on her laptop (which is newer than my old desktop) from the start.
So, our joint conclusion is this... The issue seems to stem from the game design, for certain abilities on certain classes. But, it is also likely that the lack of character responsiveness is exacerbated by hardware induced latency on older machines. New hardware helps in SOME cases, but definitely NOT all.
Just the observation of two experienced MMO players, on three different computers, trying four different classes/roles (a mix of melee tank & DPS, and caster heals & DPS).
Edited out my response, apologies... I thought you were the same poster and kept claiming its fine on a new computer.
Forgive me!
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Travel time is a whole separate issue. Ability delay is a fundamental flaw that is probably not going to be fixed. The reason this is so awful is it's probably an engine issue which is not going to be repairable partially because BioWare doesn't even own the Hero Engine. Blizzard is sitting on D3 and the SC2 expansion with DotA in it and both of those options seem better than not being able to control the character I'm supposed to spend ~335 Warzones gearing up.
I'm afraid that I agree and am very sceptical still but the thing that gives me some hope is the space combat, I believe it to be top-notch responsive. If it is using the same engine, perhaps there is hope.
I personally believe it isn't the engine but the developing code... but that changes nothing, this will not be a simple fix as it in the first place is "very" multi-layered.
Lets see what Georg has to say...
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Finally a real answer!!!! Ty
Please dont think gameplay is not important to me for one second, I just find the way combat looks to be nice and refreshing and for once I am actually entertained by the visuals of the fight...I do agree it is not more important...I just hope they can keep it incorporated but yet make the responsiveness work the way it should so everyone is happy
As long as you don't get me wrong and believe that I don't like and appreciate the animations! In fact, I agree... SW:TOR as a whole is incredibly refreshing and the animations play a large part. However, I am very cautious about favoring them above the gameplay and Bioware has undoubtedly done just that, which is what we are trying to correct.
Because, if this can and is corrected... well then, as I've said before... THIS (This game etc.) is "it". But the gap from "meh" to "it" is 0.5 seconds (HUGE)
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Let me ask you guys this...Can there be any compromise with you all? If BW was able to fix the buggyness of the UI but still had damage corresponding with the animation and it worked perfectly with no problems with the execution i.e firing off as soon as you hit the button...Would that make you happy???
I personally like the animations in there...I realize that makes some instant casts not so instant...But I like the fact that you have to wait for the grenade to land on the mob before it explodes...The saber actually has to make contact before it inflicts damage instead of damage numbers poppin out before any type of lame animation follows...
I am not saying its definitely gonna be fixed/changed/stay the same nor am i offering a solution to fixing it...Non of that...Im simply asking if the animations stayed the same and their influence on how damage was distributed BUT there was no delay from when you hit the button and when the attack/ability started, would you be able to live with that and enjoy it???
Fallen,
Yes it would make me happy... I don't really care that much for how fancy the animations are. I like them a lot currently and thats nice. However, "NOTHING" is more important that Gameplay and Responsiveness/Feeling is the most important part of Gameplay. Having said this, what you propose:
"Would it make me happy if things fired off instantly when I press the button but the damage still corresponds to the animation?"
I have to answer, it depends... I don't much care for the detail of if the lightsaber hits you it does damage or when I hit the button. It should be less than .01 difference anyways there. However, if you ask about the Grenade which has some travel time before it "Hits" the person... does it do damage when I push the button or when the grenade hits the person?
Well of course when it hits the person my dear friend, not because I "love the animation" so much but because there is absolutely no problem with that! Take WoW for example, which we all agree has the Responsiveness we strive for, a Frostbolt does damage when it hits the target, not when it leaves the player. However, I do believe the determined damage and the details (Math) behind it (does it resist, do 123dmg or 400 crit) is calculated when it leaves the player.
But you'd see the damage (register) only when it hits the target.
So, to your question... "it depends". I'm ok with the Grenade registering the damage when it hits the target not leaves my Avatar. However, what I am NOT AT ALL ok with is not being able to throw the fkin thing because my character is busy stuck in an animation (like in the OP Video).
Hope this is a decent answer my friend, I do enjoy reading your posts even when you get a hard time sometimes.
Edit: Crucial Edit here as I read your post above! --
Instant attack but ranged registering instant damage or when it connects? Such as "Fire Blast"!?
Well this is another topic! -- My answer remains the same as the above Grenade example. If any WoW and PvP Purists disagree, I do believe WoW does it this way still (That instant ranged ability still registers damage only when it hits the target not leaves the player) as in Lava Burst (Instant) Procs etc. etc.
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The original poster is correct, though.
All animations should finish animating slightly before the time the global cooldown has finished, with the exception of channeled powers.
If there is an animation lockout, then there is a problem with how the game "feels" when it plays.
It's bad enough during periods of high latency, where you can mash buttons rapidly and not get a response back from the server; to have it built into the client is not acceptable.
Targeting issues are another thing that contributes to the feel of character responsiveness being poor, but I've yet to figure out an approach to fix it.
You're absolutely right, Targeting is a very important issue as well... it is very "unresponsive". However, it does not have anything (I don't believe) to do with the Character/Avatar Responsiveness and I believe this is far more important currently.
Things like Targeting and Camera come second imo.
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Georges post was not on page 123 about 2 hours ago maybe 3. I had been reading from 125 on and back tracked 5 pages to be sure I was in touch with what was going on. In fact 122 and 123 had loading errors on my phone but no other pages did.
This was definitely a back fill in post.
Also thank yoda a response , I don't care how it came about nice job they know !
Thanks for confirming, it would be Impossible for Tinkersw or me to miss a post...
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No, absolutely no-one saw it. It was either smuggled in purposely or somehow bugged out. I believe it was smuggled In for several possible reasons but it doesn't really matter right now.
Less controversially, maybe we all missed It... like I said, apologies in that case. I have read every single response over the course of the last two threads..
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Just wanted to give my +1 here. Good job done, mates, and I *really* hope that BioWare will improve the responsivenes. Especially since there's no auto-hit and time-gaps between skills massively drop DPS. Well, on the other hand it can be seen as skill when the user is able to perfectly time all skills manually so almost no gaps between skills happen.
I'm perfectly fine with no auto attack, its interesting and a fine differentiation from WoW.
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You and Xcore... Dont torture yourselfs, dont apologize. The devs answer is immediately after my first post in this thread and I would say, it wasnt there when I followed the answers to my post.
However, it's very nice of George to come around with an answer! Vielen Dank George, wie Xcore schon sagte...
[We are here from the naturaly German speaking community, cause the english forums are much better!
]Ya, eigendlich bin Ich auch deutsch aber lebe in Toronto fur die letzten zen yahre. Ich glaube Georg its auch deutsch?
]
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
The BDF, does not kid...