Xcore
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Haven't you seen the videos as well as read up on the complaints?
Why would you NOT want to advocate a thread that is aimed to making this game better?
Honestly some people I swear...
Hes nitpicking a little on truth-claims and such. No problem there he has a point, how do "I Know that this will break the game"? I suppose I could write a thesis and analysis of the failure of all the past games related to this issue at hand. This would have "some" convincing attributes but in the end, that is what this thread is anyways.
In any case, he is arguing strictly formatting and presentation, not the actual subject... which is fine. I am not the greatest at presenting my claims and arguments. I am far too passionate with the subject at hand to really "watch what I say" in this regard.
Many faults can be picked out from my presentation, I don't believe many faults can be found with the issue discussed though (Which is all that matters).
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You're getting off point. You're countering my reply by talking about subjective unproven 'facts' such as how "This will kill the game" and "many more will quit thank this thread leads to believe" etc. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the very basic notion of using the popularity of this thread as an affirmative argument through some measure of rough % of players extrapolated from % posting here.
You are going in little circles using unsubstantiated opinion to back up your statement which you pass off as fact, and you did it condescendingly I might add.
I'll break down what I'm saying:
1. You say that you believe that this issue will lead to the death of the game if unfixed <-- Unsubstantiated opinion (can't see the future)
2. You support your point or counter detractors of your point by saying that in fact this thread IS representative of the overall mood of the game population when I am saying that the nature of complaints means that a disproportionate % will be represented by those who are unhappy rather than happy. <-- Challenged as untrue by my point and others
3. You counter 2. by saying that it doesn't really matter because 1. is true and will kill the game no matter how you choose to perceive the thread's representation of the overall population <-- Circular logic that is again opinion and impossible to substantiate
You cannot say in any definitive way that this will kill the game. Its YOURS and others' opinions that this is a game killing fact, if unfixed. For sure those who post here who say its terminal for them will likely quit, but that does not prove anything as nobody can see the future, nobody knows for sure.
Ultimately I'm only contesting your argument that this thread is an affirmative representation of the community's feelings when its just not possible to gather any empirical data from it. You can only be sure what those who are unhappy who post feel. You cannot prove any measure of overall wider % of unhappiness over it. Logic suggests that in fact you should underestimate conservatively the overall feeling based on this thread AT THIS MOMENT.
Its too early to measure accurately the feeling on this, you can't really gather any factual statistics until you get to a point when you can count active subs and cancellations AFTER the free 30 days as many who will quit will keep their cards active just to run out their already purchased time.
I don't disagree with anything you said really, lets see what happens...
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No, its not a mystery, its an opinion, would you care to provide any substantion for it or are we just supposed to take your opinion as fact?
.................................................................................. YOU STILL NEED PROOF????
Dear god sir,
Have you not read the OP? AT ALL? Have you not read 3 Threads worth of this discussed? Pick your proof... how is this "opinion" anymore?!
This is no more opinion that the Theory of Evolution is. I say to you MrTijger (lol), there is NO MISSING LINK, there is a line of links clearly visible... more coming all the time. There cannot be a "Crocoduck" that is not how it works, you are not understanding the subject enough to make these claims.
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I just read through the OP, and whoever that "pro" gamer was is talking out of his rear end. The issue really isn't as pronounced as he makes out, and all of the "omgtheyrippedoffwow" comments he makes just goes to show how little he knows about what he's talking about.
I'd challenge him to talk to some of our guys about the game with any degree of weight behind his words. He seems intent on slating it to no end, including gross exaggerations of the problems at hand.
Poor form, sir.
Yes it is, that pronounced... you simply aren't on his level of perceiving the environment and game world to be qualified to judge it to that degree. How can you be so dense? Your reaction time is Double (at least) of his, your APM is less than half of his... who are you to even make such a "horrendously" obnoxious claim.
Show some respect and come back to earth... your APM is too low, your Reaction Time is too High. Accept it, improve if you care... enjoy other aspects (Story etc.) if you don't. But don't be so ignorant to discount the views of someone far advanced in this matter...
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This is a "vocal minority" because a vast majority of the percentage of people perceiving (and bothered by) this issue "CANNOT" express it and simply leaves...
This is no mystery.
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You still don't address the contention that those who feel its a problem will seek to express their dissatisfaction far more than those who do not. Its not like people are making threads and supporting them saying 'I don't think this is a problem' or 'I am not unhappy'. Therefore the online representation of this issue is a distorted statistic since a higher percentage of those posting would be those who have the issue.
And lets say that 250k people are on these forums. How many are posting here? How many who come onto the forums are those who are actually unhappy? Generally those who are happy don't feel the need to post as often as those who are. This suggests to me, in a logical way, that using pure % of posters in this thread as a guideline for extrapolating the overall level of unhappiness is not in any way empirical.
If 1 in 1000 people are unhappy about something and yet the vast majority of those 1 of 1000 go out of their way to congregate in one area you can't say 'look, more than 300 in 1000 are complaining about this, therefore roughly 1/3 of all people are unhappy'. That is the reason people say its a vocal minority that gives a greater sense of scale to the issue than really exists as a pure % of the overall population.
I'm not here to discuss the merits of the issue, but I do disagree with your condescending inference of logic. The only way to really suss out an accurate sample of how all players feel would be if Bioware had a one time questionnaire pop up on every account as they log in asking for a yes, no, unsure answer to the question of whether this issue bothers you.
Statistics can be spun in many ways so just saying 'look at the numbers here' means nothing. Mark Twain once popularized this Benjamen Disreali quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
The difference is that this issue is hard to define, many more people will quit over this than this thread leads to believe. That is the whole crux of the entire argument. It doesn't matter if I alone post in this thread, 1000 people post in this thread or 100,000 post in this thread.
The issue expressed is still going to cause the failure of this game in the same way it did with Rift/LotRO etc etc. (any game after WoW).
I merely tried to point it out in a more elaborate way, but it is simply essential to realize that it does not matter how many people respond/approve or care about this thread. The results will be the same, regardless.
Most will never have seen this thread, will never have replied here... they'll just quit because "something vaguely doesn't feel right, I can't tell what... but Ima go back to WoW because it feels right"... "this is too clunky" etc.
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A little offtopic, but hope it's okay. Regarding the lack of any real response from BW.
/wow-fanboy-in
Just browsing the wow-forum, and saw this thread.
Topic: "Your 5.0 Class preview Likes,Dislikes,Errors & wishlist"
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3010643951
Post #9. This is how it should be.
/wow-fanboy-out
Nakatoir
Community
Hey there, I am Nakatoir, and I heavily approve of this thread *Thumbs up*. This is incredibly constructive feedback and I like where this is going, keep up the great feedback guys ^^
#9
25/11/2011
This is the reason Blizzard was so far ahead, continues to be ahead and will stay ahead for a very long time. I'm looking forward to Titan as I believe there is more stability in Blizzard than EA/Bioware for the simple reason above....
Developer's/Community Manager's/Official's posting on forums has a positive Psychological effect, not like that matters much around here.
/endobservationalrant
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It definitely is a programming issue.
Fortunately, it does not appear to be a limitation of the game engine, based on the HeroEngine wiki.
Unfortunately, the game itself does appear to be programmed entirely incorrectly, and it is going to be a royal ***** to fix.
Is there a reason why we have to analyse and evolve our understanding of this entire ordeal ourselves through this kind of research and Georg or a Team Member doesn't just f****** communicate it?
Is there fear of what? replies/misconceptions? give me a break, the people involved in this thread are fairly intelligent and as such an intelligent two-way communication "could" be attempted.
Thanks for the details on the Engine though.
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The last count I saw showed sales had reached the 2.5 million mark. I have no idea if thisa is true, so lets use BW's number and say there over 1 million players. If this is true, then yes those on this thread would represent a very very very small percentage of the player base.
The views of forum posters statistically are a percentage of overall population (Increasing incrementally). Having said that, I don't expect you to understand as you've proven your intellect in your first post, nonetheless I will attempt to elaborate.
If 2.5million players play the game, 5-10% of those post on the forums, that is 250,000 people posting.
Assuming these (generous) figures, and realizing how "INCREDIBLY" well supported this thread is (One of the biggest since forums were brought up in 2008), it is "very" safe to assume that the views expressed here are far greater than 10-20 p***ed off people.
The above is just a way to understand that the argument of "minority posting on forums" is nonsensical because that minority is a statistical representation of the views of the "non-posters".
Moving on to part 2 of your failure to comprehend basic logic:
The issue raised here is spanning SW:TOR, AoC, LotRO, AoC, EQ2, Rift and "just about ANY OTHER MMO" that exists/has existed (barring few exceptions). This means, that the issue raised is "very important". Many cannot even express it and simply say "clunky feeling", the point I am establishing is that there may only be "say 5,000" of us (though I wager its more by the viewcount) expressing this issue here. However, there are "hundreds of thousands" who cannot express this issue but feel it all the same.
In conclusion good sir/madam,
Your inability to see/experience/re-create/realize/understand and comprehend the discussed topic, makes it no less "real". I think an analogy of "Understanding Quantum Physics" is appropriate to your case:
You cannot understand/comprehend/see/experience/re-create or realize Quantum Physics, yet to discount it would be intellectual suicide as you cannot discount it, because you lack the qualifications to do so. Much as you lack the qualifications to discount the Ability Lag... (if you know what I mean).
I urge you in all honesty to reconsider, read the thread(s) and attempt to be more open to this topic.
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@Xcore
Please make sure to include this video in the OP clearly demonstrating ability jamming.
Out of all the issues you have stated in regards to ability delay, this is by far the MOST frustrating. MUST SEE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFgyeRFbdo&context=C3d50270ADOEgsToPDskJYu1y-3uG_uWyCstMK7nMz
- Credits to Belliflop
Thank You for adding and contributing this. Incidentally when I was watching this video, I was holding my nephew's new puppy! (Christmas Present). I raged so hard that I snapped it's neck and threw it across the room...
Suffice it to say, I am no longer welcoming in my cousin's home... the child is traumatized it appears.
Either way, thank you for the video -- added to OP
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i honestly do not see the problem. clipping doesn't occur in real life, nor star wars. being able to clip an animation seems hokey, cheap, and unrealistic to me. that being said i have not had any problems with delay, certain animations i have been able to cancel through and carry out another ability. if everyone has to watch the animation, then what is the problem? it's not giving anyone any unfair advantages. i really wish the QQing would end, this isn't WoW.
you can also click on your next attack before it lights up and it's activated as soon as the last animation is finished.
You're unable to see a problem because your APM is snail-like. This isn't "QQ" (I realize that makes you sound cooler and invalidates this thread but... no), this is actually a very real, very well supported concern voiced to Bioware to elevate this game from Mediocre/Good to Excellence.
Its not giving anyone any unfair advantages? Yes it is actually, its giving everyone with slow APM unfair advantages to keep up "unfairly" with much better players, due to this unresponsiveness.
"Its not WoW" is not a valid counter argument, neither is "Go play WoW if you like it" -- No-one here wants to go back to play WoW and thus this thread. However, WoW has done some things very well and this is one of those, in fact it is more than that -- you would realize this if you actually read the OP as well as subsequent 3000+ replies instead of just vomiting your thoughts out like this.
Edit: I already know what kind of player you are so I know you have no idea what APM stands for... "APM = Actions per Minute". If you now scratch your head and ask "what does that have to do with anything", you have proven my point and need to reconsider your own level of play/skill.
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I hope future developers of MMOs have finally realised that combat is the most important aspect of why a customer subscribes aslong as he/she does. Once all the content is gone, the combat is all we have left.
Judgeing by Biowares reply in this thread it's obvious that these issues are majorly linked into the hero engine itself. Like someone else said, if it was easy to fix the combat flaws it would have been done. The truth is they cheaped out by using the heroengine so they could spend all the money on quests and planet design, the latter being lackluster at best.
It's time to move on, even if they fixed the combat 'lag' the game would still feel clunky, slow and boring.
You may be right but I am still willing to give them a fair chance for resolution here, simply due to the "potential" I see in SW:TOR to finally get us away from WoW.
However, the complete lack of communication and honesty is very discouraging and I do believe you're more than likely correct with the highlighted statement.
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Tempted to reinstall wow after a year or so and do some battlegrounds
ffs tell me this isnt happening.Its worth it, try it... at least for the experience. Not saying WoW is great etc, you'll probably hate it because of whatever BUT go ahead and evaluate the "Responsiveness" in contrast to SW:TOR.
Playing 1 for an hour and then the other for an hour and switching again, do that a few times and "Dear god, how could they release this" will be all over your face.
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Bioware should fix this really .. Its so annoying and frustrating and for a pvper like me IT IS gamebreaking. If it cant be fixed they should just tell us so can stop wasting our time here. If they do fix it , it will be the best MMO ive ever played ( yep, better than 'the other game' ) . Ill give them until february otherwise ill unsub
Sadly Bioware/EA really does differentiate itself from Blizzard in that Money >> ALL (Including Playerbase/Gameplay/Everything). What they fail to realize (perhaps) is that more money can be made through honesty and communication as "Trust" in the Team behind the game is invaluable.
Having said that, them being silent about this issue can very much be confused/substituted (depending on your mood) with inability to fix and milk your subscription.
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Xcore...What do you think about making a poll with multiple types of problems that people have been describing so we can start breaking it down a little for the devs...
i.e: Some people have problems with animations not allowing them to cast next ability where some people dont...Some people can fire off abilities once GCD is done yet still get a delay...I dont know...just throwing some stupid examples out...
It's obvious that some people have more problems with certain things then others...If we can organize who's having exactly what problems, I believe it will make the process of elimination a lot easier for the devs
I dunno...Just an idea
I see the sentiment and I want to agree. However, no... there is no need for a list of abilities that causes the problem, there is no need for a Poll to further elaborate (though I think it would actually confuse even more). The Devs and Georg have "all" the information needed and I say this with all honesty: If Georg and the Dev Team do not understand the broad scope of this as well as the finer points by now, they're too talentless and don't deserve the success this game would bestow upon them if this were fixed.
I am not trying to be offensive but its just honesty, I actually believe that they are quite talented and I furthermore believe (very strongly) that they DO understand the issue. My very strong problem at this point is:
A) How much do the value this issue? Do they "really" understand the absolute importance? (This needs to be communicated to be on the same page and calm everyone)
B) Are they able to fix this -- If not, it does not necessarily mean lack of talent but possibly engine limitations etc.
Edit: I should add that its not "some people have some issues others have others". Everyone has the same issues with the same abilities and ability combinations (rotations). Its just a matter of being able to perceive them as well as properly communicate the issue.
P.S.: Every time I say "Talent" in the above, you may as well read "Intelligent/Intelligence".
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I've made about 30 to 40 posts in this thread since round 1...I know whats going on and I have certain problems myself and I completely support the OP...
What I'm tellin you is there is multiple factors here...How can me and another get off interrupts with no problems but no one else can???
So let me say this again...I know the ability delay IS A REAL PROBLEM BUT, there has to be more then just that effecting some of you since some peoples problems seem to be way worse then others....geez
Fallen is one of the best contributers to understanding this issue... just need to point that out, whether agreeing with him or not, he is genuine and brings up serious points
I would like to add that "interrupt" for one person means something else for amother. I mean when a Pro Gamer says "interrupt" he means "instant", without the Interrupted spell getting one tick off etc. When a more casual person says interrupt they mean, "yea, I can get it" ... even if It gets halfway...
From my perspective, I can interrupt... but nowhere nearly as "twitch" and "clutch" or reliable as in WoW.
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I am currently in the theater for Sherlock2 but catching up with the thread I just want to really make clear that Boobafett has absolutely no grasp of the problem, I believe this to be his inability to see the difference between instant and .1-3 delay. I hope Georg disregards his analysis of this problem as it is "completely" uninformed.
Fallenvirtues is halfway there, the only problem is that he still believe that he does not have a delay problem in certain cases that others do. However he does see a general problem and that is an important distinction.
I mist point out again and make sure everyone understands that "everyone" has the exact same delay and animation problems regardless of your ability to realize or notice this.
This is very hard to accept but important to understand to get this resolved... Sorry no replies from me for a bit. Happy new year all!
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You mean like how the missile blast animation take time to start? If yes then this is in no way related to this thread.
If you mean you cant fire an ability every gcd because you have to wait for the animation to finish, then yes there is a problem.
But i am not having it. Big difference with not seeing it.
I saw it instantly in this video :http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/846/iua.mp4/
and i can assure you i am not having this problem at all.
Your assurance is acknowledged, please stop posting as you are confusing the real topic at hand as well as potential newcomers who may not have read through the past 3 threads.
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Youd have to take my word for it, cause i played a smuggler and everything felt really fluid. Unfortunately it was in beta and i dont have my char anymore. But i do have a level 9 bounty hunter and i could recreate what the poster in the previous page said , would that be alright?
No, make a lvl2 smuggler and recreate the video discussed between you and I and shown in the Original Post or leave this thread.
Furthermore, I feel the need to point out that the particular video (Smuggler Grenade etc.) is just ONE, JUST ONE cause of the over-arching problem of the entire Combat Design/Mechanics Flaw in this game.
Recreate it, as YOU suggested you would... or please, for the love of the force, leave this thread. The BDF surely can use your skills in another topic on the forums. Perhaps you can argue that Garrus' Face is fine in ME2 (or was it 1?), perhaps you can go defend the many varying dungeon designs in DA2? There is much work to do for BDF Drone nowadays.
My analogy of the Creationism vs. Evolution stands 100% firm and you sir take the position of Ray Comfort in this case... I say to thee, the Banana is not in fact proof of God. Take it or leave it.
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Listen, it does not show me the flaw in the combat design because i am not experiencing it ! How hard is it to understand. You can tell yourself im not good enough to notice it when i play, doesnt change the fact that it does not happen when i play.
You want me to to make a freakin scoundrel and do those exact same move to show you it does not happen when i play?
Since when i show you an instance of ability having priority over animation now its just '' that particular ability that is not bugged''. Do i really have to make a scoundrel and do those ability to prove you that it does not happen with me?
Your crazy analogy aside, you are actually the one trying to convince me of what im seeing in my game.
Yes I want you to recreate the video showing the grenade being thrown as soon as you press your key not when the bolts stop flying...
Do it.
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Whoever said the mount bug didn't prove anything:
Casted spells work the exact same way, as do instant ranged attacks. Say you replaced the mounting spell with a healing one. Say you casted a 1.5 second heal and ran as soon as the bar was complete. You'd get the same result, or something equally buggy, or the instant cast you tried to cast afterwards might not even work.
This is basic stuff. The fact that so many people are trying to defend this issue just goes to show how awful most MMO players are.
It would be like if you wanted to make a website, a really really cool website, and you wanted it to be the best website ever. Except a lot of the buttons just didn't work. Would that be a cool feature just because you liked the lay out of the website? No.
It's the same thing. They just didn't code it, because the people who made this game also suck at video games.
This entire post is incredibly accurate... "every, single, part"... I don't care if it sounds harsh, truth hurts and truth is the only thing that matters.
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Edit... you quoted another
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This is the 3rd version of the thread... its not going anywhere... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=105955
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I have run into this issue and it is incredibly frustrating.
If you sit still and just keep casting Dark Infusion, you'll easily see there is a 0.5-0.8 second delay after the casting has finished, for the heal to even hit the target. Every single ability suffers from this, but it may not be as noticeable with instant casts if you aren't looking for it. Healing under duress is infuriating and requires player compensation to make up for an inherent game design flaw.
Healers suffer most noticeably from this, my fiancee plays a Consular Sage and is incredibly annoyed by this to the point that shes already out the door back to the Paladin and Priest in WoW.
I feel the need to point out because you make a very good point -- If healers are affected by this very negatively, as such you cannot create "tightly" tuned hard content in endgame PvE where every .3-.5 seconds of a 10 minute fight can spell doom because 1 heal is delayed.
This would be sad, this is a snowballing issue, it is the core, the foundation, the beginning but what follows is ez-mode, un-imaginative, *****y and frustrating endgame... PvP and PvE.
ffs tell me this isnt happening.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
The term "Theory" has two different definitions, which "Theory" are you arguing about? If you want to "disprove" the "Theory of Evolution" its actually quite simple... however, it has not been done.
It involves finding fossils in strata's that should not be found there etc. A bunny in the Cretaceous will disprove it very fast...
Please leave the thread, enjoy your game.