Xcore
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The things you mention are what I am referring to. When I play PVP I understand that certain things may not go off right away.. But it kinda gets lost in the noise for me.
I may already be stunned, that skill may be on cool down already, I may be out of mana, My unstun may still be on cool down.
There are so many situations that already stop an ability from working right away or at all, that I just live with it.
I want it to be fixed, but until then it really doe snot affect me that much. I know going into a fight it's not, 1, 2, 3, .... 4. It's 1.., 2.., 3.., .......4 and really it can mean lifer and death if I had been able to squeeze in 1-2 more skills into my rotation. But most battles are not that close, even in PVP.
I know this is my personal experience. And I do not apply it to you. But I am posting this for the devs to see. a tiny portion of the community (Just me?) Finds this to be almost a non-issue.
I am not sarcastic when I say that I'm happy you can live with it. However, I would like you to read my overview of the entire issue/thread (link in OP) because to you I'd address: Even if you "can live with it", DON'T! Because the only way to make the Genre as a whole, developers and even players understand this constant issue (across so many MMOs) is to "raise" your demand of quality.
Also, I should mention that the problem itself is exasperated the higher end you get in both PvE and PvP. To a casual player, it may not even be noticeable -- To a Professional Gamer with a .4-5 reaction time average, well its unplayable completely.
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I installed TOR a couple days ago. I have a relatively high end PC, and was able to turn everything on max, and have almost no problems with FPS or this 'delay' you speak of. I was playing on a 'medium/standard' population server as a Smuggler.
But wait, what's this, some friends I find on FB already have a group going on another server, and they are Empire? So, I reroll as an Agent (same class, different name, abilities are same but animations are different).
As the Smuggler, I had no problems with the ability delay, but with the Agent it is very apparent with a lot of the abilities. Granted, I only made it to lvl 9 on each character, but it was a world of difference. My "Snipe" ability would finish the animation and deal the damage a full half second or so after the cast timer finished. Everything was very cumbersome and much more awkward to deal with.
I don't know if this is because I am playing on a more heavily populated server or something? Is it the difference between smuggler/agent? I did not make any changes whatsoever to my graphics settings or anything. I don't know.
Anyone played both smuggler and agent and noticed a difference?
Thanks guys,
I really do like the game and will keep playing
Its the same, issue still persists -- Please view the Smuggler Video in the OP for just one example of the overall issue. Also, as a Gunslinger myself at lvl32, Aimed Shot is one of the main culprits... so is the knockback ability... etc etc.
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Let me make this clear-- Xcore mentioned the looting bug (kneeling for an hour), so I mentioned what I did. I am not making comparisons of SWToR of now versus WoW of 7 years ago. COMPLETELY different thing. Please don't take this out of context.
I know what you're saying -- its just a misunderstanding, don't take it personal
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I think Bioware essentially designed Kotor 3, now with multi-player. However I think this is the first Multi-player game they've ever done so they probably didn't expect a lot of the issues that came up.
However you would have thought they would have -someone- on the team with experience making MMO's to tell them these things.
Yeh, most likely.
And this is where I draw the line of idiocy. First step to making a successful MMO -- Hire someone who "knows" not necessarily how to make or code it but who knows MMOs period.
I don't believe they had any such person, as you point out.
And yes, Blizzard was made up of not "Casual" EQ Players but "HARDCORE EQ Players" -- They knew what an MMO really is, needs to be and how to accomplish it.
I am disappoint but my hope rests with Herr Zoeller.
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I don't think they based it much on MUDs, as far as I'm aware Blizzard mostly designed WoW with a bunch of ex-EQ players that wanted to make a much much better game then EQ and a whole bunch of people that used to work on Diablo which is an action game.
This is very much true, Bioware or any other ambitious Developer needs to hire a few Top Tier players to help lead the finer points of development and raise flags along the way.
If I was to design an MMO and build an entire, ambitious MMO in this market. Besides getting the best coding team possible I would hire 5-10 Top Players who know what they're talking about.
Essentially this is what Blizzard did...
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Quite a few of these developers, notably Bioware and Funcom are staffed by designers that are artists at heart, they want to make beautiful cinematic combat. However that is directly at odds with fast paced, responsive combat. No one will ever tell you that a Street Fighter tournament would make a good movie action scene, however neither does most action scenes make good games.
I'm a bit at a loss at why Trion, Turbine and Mythic would make that kind of choice though.
Truthfully and perhaps a little off-topic, Trion did the best job... Turbine was held back by the whole LotRO Universe, they really had to stick to the rules and perhaps overlooked it for focus on other aspects. Mythic was simply a scam, they used an old horrible engine and the problems there lie in the incompetence of the entire Team as well as coding (more specifically).
Bioware, you may be right... all emphasis on Story/VO/"Cinematic Combat" absolutely "no" clue of the reality of MMO Gaming. Inexperience perhaps...
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Well yeh, the responsiveness is really cheap. These two things are basically 99% of what makes WoW more responsive.
1) Effects take place EXACTLY at the end of their cast duration. Instant means instant, 2.5 sec means 2.5 sec etc
2) If you cancel the cast after the cast duration but before the animation/cast bar is done(This is inevitable due to latency), the effect is still applied since the cast was done serverside.
Really, it would bother me a lot less if all the 'instant, but not really lulz' abilities had listed cast times.
I agree completely but may I ask Bioware, Trion, Turbine, Funcom, Mythic why this has been completely missed?
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Well, at Blizzard they're really different teams. The famous 'Ghostcrawler' isn't actually the lead developer or anything at WoW, rather he's the "Gameplay" designer. He and his team are basically dedicated to nothing else but making the Class mechanics/UI/Trade Skills etc as good as possible.
Meanwhile the Art and Content departments do their thing completely separately.
I do however suspect that Blizzard has a QA budget that would make most other developers green with envy and all their devs have a ton of experience with reactive/dynamic gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, Blizzard has a "Stupid" amount of Cash and Resources at their disposal "at this point in time" for QA or anything else. However, 7 years ago they most certainly did not have all this cash (they had a lot, but nothing like today) but yet they still managed to make the Responsiveness perfect...
Yes WoW had a horrible launch and was near unplayable, of course! Yes there were loot bugs (lol, staying kneeling for 1 hour). Sure, I fell through the world a few times to meet my untimely demise. Of course, a rogue with a grey dagger could one shot me.. (balance?)
BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERED
Because the "Responsiveness" was so acutely, accurately, immersively amazing. Everything else got fixed, over 6 months, 1 year... 2 years... who cares? No-one now remembers these things (nearly no-one), we all simply remember WoW for having "That certain, undefinable something" that makes it feel "not clunky".
And this is the point -- This "Certain undefinable something, not clunky feeling" is the entire reason that WoW can simply not be caught by any amount of money EA pumps into other features (VO, Animations etc.)
Its infuriating that companies with "millions upon millions" of dollars and such great ambitions that you can practically "see" the cash symbols in their eyes are so ignorant to what makes a great game great.
Unbelievable.
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I saw the response in the 2nd thread from George. It was obvious they don't even know what's causing this.
It infuriates me because this was brought up in BETA, yet it seems like they completely ignored the problem because NOW is when they finally give an answer and it's basically "We don't know what's wrong at all but we're looking into it".
You had PLENTY of time to figure out what's wrong with this horrible combat and now is when you respond, and you don't know what's wrong..
Their priorities in BETA were different, in fact their line of priorities (misguided) is the reason we're having this issue I believe.
Priorities as they appear to have been:
Introduction of Quality Story into MMO Genre > Full VO > "Heroic" Animation based Combat > Companions > Environment and Settings > Gameplay Responsiveness/Feeling > Bug Squashing
What I believe they should be (Blizzard appears to agree):
Gameplay/Overall Responsive Feeling > Gameplay > Gameplay > UI Feedback Accuracy > Gameplay and Responsiveness Bugs > UI Bugs > Smoothing out Responsiveness and UI Response to Input..... "repeat of above" .... > "EVERYTHING ELSE IN ANY ORDER AT ALL"
My point is 99% of the dedication should be spent on what every player will do 99% of the time... this is simple logic to player retention.
Who cares what the story is, who cares what the voice over quality is, who cares what sound effects and music are there... who cares how cool my guy looks flipping around and about.
When I feel disconnected from the Avatar that IS ME within the universe due to "poor" responsiveness, EVERYTHING ELSE IS USELESS.
lets not even talk about the detailed effects this has on PvE and PvP and competitive play. I stress, "nothing" is more important to an ACTION MMO than the WAY the ACTION FEELS. Because that is "all" that you'll be doing.
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Good1. Even if this is off-topic, I can agree that the game is currently VERY unbalanced, but the balance system will always be improved. WoW still balances their classes, so it's an never ending process.
I believe he may be talking about the effect this has on balance of classes due to differing animations.
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Whether it'll make or break the game is up for debate, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a major issue and can cost thousands of subscribers if not addressed properly.
What is not up for the debate is the fact that it will seriously hinder and impeded it meeting its fullest potentials and possibly exceeding it.
Also, re-created threads should keep their full Star Votings... its sad that we had almost 200 People Voting and 5 Starring it and now some people with a lack of understanding can downvote it, potentially scaring away newcomers to this thread discussion.
/Upvoted....
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As others have said, this in no way will make or break SWTOR.
I have no problem not being able to smack something with my lightsaber when it's still in midair, regardless of what the GCD says.
I don't even know if that is still the issue, as you couldn't pay me to read through that second thread. I'm sorry I wasted my time in the first.
I can't believe some of you people, I thought this thread, these posts are clear and defining. I thought that its demonstrable evidence and that just about everyone under the sun could finally see and even recreate these issues for themselves.
At this point it has got to be, you being blinded by your "Love for SW:TOR or Bioware" or "Hatred for WoW and Blizzard" that has you missing the entire subject.
OR
You simply are not able to perceive the issue due to your slower and more methodical playstyle. Your reaction time may be too slow...
Perhaps its some mixture of the two, but please understand: Just because you are unable to see, perceive or recognize this issue... IT STILL IS THERE.. Staring you blankly in the face every time you're in the game. Whether you want or can see it or not is a different topic.
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Grandmas are paying customers too. The time and player base will tell if this issue is worth fixing. But tbh I have a feeling that this problem is not so easy to solve. If the game code is designed in a certain way it cant be changed over night with a simple patch.
Definitely not easy to fix. However, definitely the reason for WoW's success and failure of every other MMO with the exception of EvE Online as that is a whole different story.
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i meant non-interruptible as in, an enemy couldn't interrupt it.
Couldn't interrupt the animation style or cannot interrupt the cast? I think I know what you're getting at just want to confirm!
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The project is a good example where you lose character control for a second. But that doesn't personally bother me.
What I am mostly concerned is the skills where the effect resolves a second or so after the cast bar.
That I think is misleading in a way to a player, because you can move and cancel the effect after the cast bar has resolved.
This is a particularly nasty challenge for healers... not being able to reliably (by UI reflection) know which exact millisecond your heal will land on your target is asinine.
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yessir, that was my initial thinking also. Wrap the animation inside the cast time and make it a non-interruptible channeled spell. Wrap it so tight that they both end at the same time. VOILA, problem solved. I understand software development is more than a magic wand but this in theory seems like it would work.
I think the ability to interrupt your own cast is very important for fake casting or changing decisions based on surroundings. Not sure if you meant "not being able to interrupt but be forced to complete the animation".
In any case, some form of animation clipping is absolutely required for any kind of fix here "unless" they add a completely new combat animations style such as Guild Wars 2 is doing so that you can seemlessly "bleed" from one animation into another etc...
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Well, i'm happy that someone made this thread since i work full time now & don't have enough free time to do it.
First, i want to say that i am an "old" MMO player, started in '99 & tried almost every big & not so big MMOs.
So, blizzard's recipe for success is this simple equation : GAMEPLAY > EVERYTHING.
gameplay > story
gameplay > background
gameplay > aesthetic
Simple exemple is consular's ability "Project". It takes at least 2 second for this "instant cast" to land because of the animation...
I'll get straight to the point, i'm playing this as a KOTOR, not a MMO, if this issue is not fixed before i'll hit 50, i'll probably quit this game.
I like you
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hi there, this is digitalpossum's girlfriend (post on 159 on his acct by mistake). i wanted to make a couple of clear points, so that hopefully people will come back, with understanding, to the original plea xcore began with.
point the first: regardless of the comparisons to blizz's wow, this is NOT a cry for swtor to emulate wow, EXCEPT IN COMBAT FLOW. the reason for this, as relates to pvp, has been amply described and documented; let me add another point, and that's the point of view of an rper. for me to truly enjoy my gameplay, i MUST truly enjoy my character. this starts at the character creation tab (i've been known to roll the same toon a dozen times to get her "just right"), and extends into her story, her interaction with others ingame, AND her combat/healing. if ANY part of this is "icky," then the overall totality of the experience is flawed for me. i won't go back to wow simply because i'm too disgusted with what they did to a game i loved -- but hey, that's not the only option out there. when i consider my healing priest, and then my healing consular -- well, for casting in combat, the priest wins, hands down. forget everything else -- my ability to "feel" my character lives as much in her ability to keep people alive as it does in her ability to interact with others. key point here folks -- THIS IS AS IMPORTANT AS EVERY OTHER GREAT THING YOU DID IN THE GAME, AND IF IT'S NOT FIXED, IT WILL COST YOU MANY MANY SUBSCRIBERS. so forget and drop the vitriol that we just want a wow clone -- that ain't it. what we want is to be able to immerse ourselves in the brilliant potential that does exist with this game.
point the second: there IS a problem with ability casts and delay timers/animation. as digitalpossum indicated on page 150 of this thread, he and i checked this out with four different class combos (smuggler, warrior, consular/balance and consular/seer). we tested this across three computers, one of which has its specs spelled out on page 150. it's not only a huge motherbeast of a machine, it's a bloody hawt gaming computer. we were able to successfully recreate the ability delay issue on each class, on each computer; we were not able to make the delay NOT occur on his brand new shiny toy.
point the third: i've said this before because i feel it SO strongly. customer service is a big deal. responsiveness to your customer's requests is a big deal. sadly, xcore is correct -- this second thread, created from the first one which capped 1k responses, is well on its way to also being 1k responses, and it wasn't until (fuzzy logic applies here, due to the page 123/140 discrepency) page 123 of THIS second posting that the devs made any statement at all. when you consider that this is a problem that has existed throughout beta testing, and was steadfastly NOT addressed, you begin to see some of the customer service angst, on the part of the player community. i know, devs, you guys are so happy with what you built. i get that, i understand that -- yes, the potential ABSOLUTELY exists.
however.
that potential will never be realized if #1 you don't address your customers' issues in a more timely manner (nope, not saying fix it naow, saying acknowledge and address it) and if #2 you don't listen to the very people you asked to test your product.
i am sorry, bioware and ea -- your customers may very well be blown away with the story features, or even just the newness and fun-factor in being in STAR WARS. but we're still gamers. we still play the game with certain expectations. and those expectations ABSOLUTELY include seamless cast/ability flow, both for pvp, and for pure immersion reasons.
i honestly hope you do find a way to address and resolve this issue. i truly fear something new and possibly wonderful may be lost if you don't.
Edit: Corrected punctuation mistakes -- capitalizaton? What's that?
Thanks for this input, great post and I agree with every word.
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I have not chimed into this at all but my quick thoughts are: Not allowing Addons and the Modding Community into your game is complete stifling of creative progress and effectually a very "Arrogant" suicide in the long term.
If not suicide at the very least it'll impede from ever achieving or exceeding full potential.
It takes arrogance believing that one can control the evolution just as well solo and "In-House" as with the help of "millions" of minds/ideas etc.
However, before releasing API the game itself needs serious fixing (before people can fiddle with it at all)... its too "unstable" for this to happen.
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Of course but i mean is that when you hit an ability it has to sync up targets last movements with the new information. AKA deflecting bolts from the front then going to deflect from the rear.
Takes a bit of time but i think once bugs get hashed out we should see that time dwindle. But as i said the delay is probably caused because of this since certain abilities that dont interact with other players or NPCs dont have this delay.
This has not been brought up at all in over 300+ pages as a possible issue, I don't think anyone seriously considered it and I don't believe this is it but at the same time crazier things have happened...
Thanks for the food for thought!
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Give this man a medal for conducting himself unprofessionally and with poor grammar? Yeh okay.
Also I believe fixing this 'making' this game is redundant. This unjustified an awful laggy delay responsiveess SHOULDNT be there in the first place. It feels like lag if anything. Definately unsubbing if this isnt fix'd now.
I don't understand a single thing you're trying to say with the exception that you are unsubbing unless this is fixed...
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No idea if someone stated this. But the delay comes from the fact that combat is choreographed and needs time to calculate movements. Thus a small delay.
No, its not "real" choreographed combat. Its all pre-determined set amount of movements etc. I would be very surprised if that were the case, though animations in general play a large role.
Please do correct me if I am mistaken
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To Bioware: This issue should be your number 1 priority unless the gamecode makes certain hardware melt down. Also money or manpower should not be made an issue to fix this.
The waiting time to login, chat bugs, graphics bugs, loot bugs, quest line bugs, title bugs or maintanence times or any of the other complaints that i have seen on the forums will be forgotten and forgiven once you fixed them down the road (it took blizzard like 2 years to fix the loot bug? Nobody seems to remember... Just to name something).
But if this responsiveness issue is not fixed or atleast reduced, there will not be a "down the road" where u can fix these bugs simply because people refuse to play this game. To a point where the game becomes a excellent RPG with a very nice co-op mode. But that will not be enough to keep people subscribed for longer then 2 or three months at most. Simply because real competative play (Guild PVE progress, player vs player) is not possible. But competative play is for many one of the biggest if not the biggest reason to play any game online.
Fix this and: players will stick around, new players keep commin. The company can keep patching and adding stuff or improving it while making tons of money. And in 5 years people start to leave for a new MMO just to end up comparing it to SWTOR and tellin that other developer how much better SWTOR was and never had a single bug or problem.
I call that a win win situation for developer publisher and gamer. Go Bioware! Keep giving me the good stuff like you did in the past.
Quoted for absolute emphasis... give this man a medal, beer... whatever he desires.
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I'm SO glad you made this thread, OP. I absolutely love ToR but I also love Rift and a month or so ago I made a thread on the Rift forums trying to explain THIS EXACT ISSUE within the context of Rift as it is plagued by it as well. My post over there is speaking primarily of PvP (where it is most noticeable) but the issue surely exists across the board:
I linked people in that post over here to take a read of your incredible post as well hoping it increases visibility and general interest as I am in complete agreement: responsiveness, fluidity and general "synchronization" is of the utmost importance is make-or-break for a fun gaming experience.
Thanks again for a great thread and please accept this tiny bump!
Thank You
I really enjoyed reading your post on Rift regarding this very "hard-to-define" uncomfortable feeling that we all experience in all these MMOs. Of course it is most prevalent in PvP (but also High End PvE) as this is most "reaction time" demanding and thus is limited mostly by responsiveness.
I really love the fact that there are more voices raising this issue and awareness in different games. The most amazing thing would be GW2 getting it "exactly right", because then we could finally see what would really happen when someone strikes it just like WoW in this field.... I dare say, I trust no-one more than ArenaNet to accomplish this (that is a different subject)
To your post again, I hope others are inspired by it and carry forth this "message" and understanding of "Gameplay, Complete Control and Character Responsiveness >> ALL OTHER ANYTHING". Then perhaps after Titan launches we'll have that generation of MMOs to really look forward to.
I'd like to do your post justice by commenting on specifics that I enjoyed:
In short, the PvP in this game seems unsynchronized, laggy and very random. Part of this is due to the large quantity of possible, viable builds available for each of the callings which leads to far less of an ability to "prepare" for what abilities you might be facing in a particular PvP encounter.This I found interesting because it touches upon the unique aspect and challenge that Rift faces in this regard. I'm not too familiar with Rift but the amount of possible builds and thus spells and combinations seen in PvP would be staggering. This may also as you point out have to do with the disjointed feeling in PvP.
Regardless of what can be said of the Arena system and class balance, it is undeniable that WoW's PvP is among the most fluid and crisp PvP available from a functional standpoint if nothing else.Here you kind of really "identify" the "Golden Key" to WoWs success, why we all go back to it and never break free to another game. Although you focus on PvP, its relevant just as much to every other aspect of simply moving your character, casting a spell at a lvl2 boar or an intense 2800+ Arena 3s RMP Mirror.
Take a WoW Rogue for example. When I land Cheap Shot on a target, they immediately freeze in their tracks. The animation of Cheap Shot is perfectly in sync with the "click" sound effect it makes and, even still, is perfectly in sync with the stun, swirl effect animating above the affected target's head. After two seconds, the Rogue lands a Kidney Shot that also lands cleanly but the target trinkets this stun and immediately starts moving away from you. Everything seems instantaneous, synchronized and fluid. It allows for PvP battles to be almost a "chess match" wherein you are reacting in real time with your opponent, attempting to think two to three steps ahead to gain an advantage.After reading this, I realized that somehow you have the nerve of calling my OP remarkable or great but in reality... this above paragraph is the most amazing, accurate description of this issue that I could never put into words so eloquently myself. Bioware, Georg, read the above highlighted green paragraph please... this is it, don't read it... feel it.
I'm being serious here, when I read the above paragraph I don't just think of what you mean, I "see" it. That is it... when you say "but the target trinkets this stun and immediately..." you f****** mean "IMMEDIATELY" with Effect/Sound/Animation all "perfectly" in sync. This perfection is what amazes me about Blizzard... this standard of quality. I am sorry if this sounds Blizz praising but I am simply amazed by this accomplishment and I think anyone who understands this issue, MMO Gaming, Game Development would agree.
I land Paralyzing Strike on a target and they still scoot forward perhaps a half meter or so. The sound effect the ability makes does not seem in line with the effect itself and it makes it very difficult to time anything properly. The target gets out of Paralyzing Strike so I attempt to put Malicious Strike up but it takes two to three key presses before the ability is able to be used despite, on my screen, me being practically on top of my opponent. Once Malicious Strike finally lands, it only lasts a second or two given the nature of Rift's diminishing returns system. I chase after the target trying to pump damage into them but I'm unable to hit them consistently and it throws off the timing of every ability I'd typically use at opportune times.I have "no" idea what any of the abilities mean or do but the above quoted green text is infuriating. I feel your frustration as if it just happened to me (perhaps because it did in Aldaraan Warzone). Again, Georg, the above speaks of the problem so clearly it hurts.
The above is the best I can do to explain the problem and this unsynchronized, random nature of Rift PvP is what keeps me out of Warfronts indefinitely and keeps me going back to WoW just to get my PvP fix. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a choice. WoW's PvE is good but I prefer Rift's. However, would WoW's PvE be good enough to draw me away in light of the PvP being vastly more fun? While I can't say now, I wanted to explain this to you as I love this game and want it to succeed indefinitely.I quoted this because I would just like to point out that you have a far better way with words, so much so that I wish you would've written the OP for us here in SW:TOR. Perhaps it would've had greater effect... I applaud you on this OP on the Rift forums and I would like to link it and add it to my OP here.
Ty for sharing and contributing!
P.S.: I noticed that you listed your computer specs as well, I guess in Rift the blind still carry the same arguments.
. The time and player base will tell if this issue is worth fixing. But tbh I have a feeling that this problem is not so easy to solve. If the game code is designed in a certain way it cant be changed over night with a simple patch.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Xcore
Asabalana,
I've enjoyed your posts in the previous thread (Thread 2, I don't believe you were in 1) and I'd like to really thank you and point out that anyone not experiencing this problem or has doubts about it, needs to read this post.
You may consider yourself just an average player but your awareness and understanding is above average I believe. This is aided greatly by your "objectivity" to the subject, the game and the company itself. I don't think there are praises high enough to recognize how important your post that I quoted is...
Everyone should read it, because no matter what opinion you're of and champion, this is simple, objective, refreshing truth.
I would like to add your above post to the OP, it helps greatly.
Thank you for the kind words at the end as well, it is appreciated. A lot of people have contributed to this and to the awareness raising but thank you very much, it always feels good to hear something like that
I should say my opinion regarding your post really is separate from your kind words to me
P.S.: I recommend reading the OP on the Rift Forums posted by another person near the end of Thread 2.
Edits: Exasperated -> separate