Xcore
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Posts posted by Xcore
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Stop spouting misinformation. I've never experienced any of these issues on any of my characters. One of my guild mates has, but only on his Marauder.
Get out.... seriously, you have no place here... there have been about 100 of you that have come into this continuing thread over the past days. There is no way to be nice to you... you are marginally worse than the guy that comes in saying "Guys set it to 0.0 its all good".
Get out... let us try to fix the game for you...
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I have seen no correlation between the two but that is just me.
It just makes it more obvious:
Regular lag-free environment = Responsiveness lags behind by 0.5-1.5 seconds
Laggy environment = Responsiveness lags behind by 0.5-1.5 + 2-3 seconds = 4.5/5+ sec
It is + lag that the general not so sensitive person experience it more but attriubtes it completely to the lag... so no it doesn't "cause" it but makes it more "noticeable".
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Has anyone discerned if lower FPS has any exacerbating effect on the delay? For me, it clearly takes a bit longer time for my character to start performing an instant ability from idle state in the main area of fleet compared to the hangar area.
Yes it absolutely does but its due to simple logic in this case. Not Responsive is bad as it delays abilities and does not allow for proper rotation usage etc. quick inputs etc. Add actual lag and now its the regular delay + lag delay making you want to kill yourself.
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No one cares about your looming threats to quit. Get over yourself. Keep it to facts - when does this occur, what character type, is it just lag or you're stuck channeling an ability?
No one cares about how much you've played WoW.
You're the same guy that said there is no problem just adapt or stop mashing buttons right?
Now that Bioware your loyalty demands you support this fix? How about you get over yourself. The questions you posed are irrelevant if you actually understood what you're talking about and asking about...
What Character Type -- ALL
What Character Ability -- ANY
Is it just lage or you're stuck channeling an ability -- No, 60 FPS @ 30ms
If you actually had "any" grasp of the issue you'd understand that it is an over-arching problem in the way combat mechanics are designed from Animation Prioritization to Client/Server Communication.
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I have to say, I do wish I would have some insight on whats going on behind the scenes. I s this topic a quick watercooler situation or have there been boardroom meetings with the thread pages all for review (as someone suggested etc.)
I think everyone would have a better understanding of where "they" themselves stand in regards to this issue and SW:TOR if Bioware indicated how much they value this subject and of what level of importance it is.
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so what is everyone going to complain about after this gets fixed?
Targeting and Fixed *Auto Follow* Camera... after that, Allowing Addons properly to allow further evolution of said game... after that, nothing really just suggestions of improvement here and there and bug fixes while we stroll to 15million subscribers depending on the quality of Endgame PvE and PvP...
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I don't post on forums much, but I wanted to support this thread and to actually say Thank You to xcore. Takes some time and guts to bring this up and to fight hard for this. Especially with something that is so hard to explain. I, for one, agree with you. I do think there is just something "off" that needs a little fix.
I also think time is something BW needs.
I have been following this thread and, more importantly, the threads before this one very closely. I think that most people "get it." I also think BW gets it. But I am no developer and I have no knowledge of how to "fix" this. I'm sure some of you might be brilliant and have the answer right now. But I bet you don't know exactly how it "works." Now you might, and that's awesome, but while I understand that people might have brought this up in beta, let's see what happens. Give it some time.
Time...."give it some time"...there is a new concept. Time is the one thing most of us don't want to give up, yet we will spend hrs upon hrs in front of a monitor starring at an avatar. Then the min something isn't "perfect" we file on to the forums for another 1/2 session of complaining and writing. This is not a shot at anybody here, but an example of how we all need to take a step back...realize they have responded, which is what you wanted. In the previous thread, all were asking for an answer...just somebody to come in and say "yes, we are paying attention. carry on." In not so many words, they said that. They don't have an answer. I'm sure they would LOVE to have a complete answer, but the facts are I'm sure they have to look at everything and compile all the information they can. Was it the answer you wanted? Of course not. Will it ever be? No. And you all know why. I shouldn't have to go into detail on why it is not a good idea to give out estimated dates.
Again, xcore, thanks for taking the time to put all this in thought. You did a great job. And don't answer the people that don't understand what's going on. You know, and about 100,000 views says some other people are with you as well.
For the folks who don't have this issue or don't see this issue...I understand this may be difficult but it is there. It's not easy to understand something like that. But understand this, the game will not change for the worse when this does, in fact, get changed. If you don't know what's going on, then you won't even know when the change takes place. So I would beg you to leave your comments out of this thread. If you have questions, by all means I am sure people here will talk. But please refrain from blasting other people because you feel there isn't a problem.
And to the other's who attack the people who can't see it....relax. xcore did all the hard work for you...people in this thread did all the hard work for you. If they can't see it after the explanations and examples given then skip over their comment. Think of it as a troll. Just let it pass.
Thanks again for everybody’s hard work on here. You all honestly lifted my spirits knowing other people were having the same issue.
Sorry for the wall. Take care
Great post and thank you for your kind words. I agree, Bioware needs time and this isn't easy and that is fine. However, Bioware also needs to continue acknowledging and reaffirming their stance on this issue.
They have acknowledged it yes, and its a bad time in the season for this to happen and so shortly after release BUT in 2-3 years we will all be thankful for these weeks and months (maybe?). So, I agree... lets see what happens, the ball is still very clearly in Bioware's court (even though they responded).
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Been thinking about engine design and response for awhile (been a part of this thread since the original), especially in regards to Bioware's game designs. Because to compare them to WoW and Blizzard, while important in a competition discussion, is less relevant to deciding if Bioware themselves can see the problem and have a way to fix it.
I may get flamed about this, but hear me out, please:
Dragon Age 2 was far superior to Dragon Age:Origins in TERMS OF ABILITY DELAY AND CHARACTER RESPONSIVENESS.
Same with Mass Effect 2 over 1.
Now, you can debate whether or not they're as good as games as their precursor (fairly universally, DA2 is panned and ME2 is praised), but the combat system in DA2 is MUCH faster, more responsive, and flat out MORE FUN than DA:O.
Well said, I cut of your entire post as it was long (well worth the read though!). I agree on all points and nice contrast to previous Bioware Projects. I agree of course DA:O to be superior to DA2 while still realizing that the Combat and Response was much tighter (by leaps and bounds) to DA:O.
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in other words? thank you, bioware, for your response in the previous thread. we know it's a huge issue, we know it's going to be a hard one for you to first digest, then resolve how to answer. we're still here, and we'll keep on being here for a while, so don't forget us. and when you start getting inklings of what's going on ... well, yeah, a little comment here and there will go a long way.
I agree with everything you say and would like to place emphasis on this quote. There needs to be some "basic" communication on this subject for continued trust, I can't emphasize enough that "once the subscriptions start bleeding away" it snowballs into an exodus... once the exodus has happened, it doesn't really matter what you do thereafter, the game will forever be "tainted" in the minds of MMOers and it will never be able to reach the potential it once had (even if it becomes marginally successful).
My recommendation would be to drop by a post letting everyone know you're taking this serious once every few days until slowly a gameplan is developed. At which point you could share this gameplan and gauge the reaction to this gameplan.
Now, one thing I would "really" like to put forth as a recommendation:
Bring in some people 3-10 who are Hardcore MMO Gamers, serious people to evaluate the situation of fixes etc. I realize we're just the peasants paying to play the game and all but believe it or not, there are real people, adults here who "can" actually help constructively.
Remember, World of Warcraft Developers were Hardcore EQ Raiders -- This is not a coincidence. Get outside help from people who understand the problem, I am not trying to shamelessly plug myself but this is a serious belief I hold and suggestion I put forth.
Otherwise, I fear another "CU or NGE" response... dear god.
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@Xcore
Firstly, great job on identifying a key and crucial issue which NEEDS to be addressed.
However, I ask of you to please edit your OP to put emphasis on the abilities jamming up as shown in
You have posted it under "Ability Delay", but it is in actuality not delay, but rather incessant jamming and resetting that occurs when multiple buttons are pressed in a rapid frequency. THIS NEEDS TO BE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AND ADDRESSED.I can deal with animations being delayed and whatnot, but I CANNOT deal with animations jamming like such.
It is part of the overall issue of "Responsiveness" to input. Believe me this is also widely understood and I am sure Georg is very aware.
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Button mashing should not be necessary, although in many games it is. When you're raiding and in a 2 or 3+ minute battle (not to mention the 10+ minute ones), you need to stay in cooldown at all times, make 100% of the time efficient. So, either a skill queuing system, or buttonmashing is needed. Skill queuing is sloppy in this game, but would be much better if the delays were fixed. Queuing + delays is very cumbersome.
Skill Queuing is not good, it impedes responsiveness unless it can be stopped by the mashing of a new ability.
You need to be able to react instantly to changes in environment within .5 seconds, no question about it.
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lol it's all good -- but look at it thisaways:
my jedi consular sage healer has worked HARD to train, to learn, to better herself and be a better asset to the republic. she has a gift for healing, and so that's where she devotes a great deal of time. however, at times, she finds her mind insisting she cast THIS spell, while her fingers are still stuck casting the LAST spell. this causes the poor jedi to doubt herself, and as we know, doubt can lead to the dark side!!!
Perhaps if you wrote the OP in the same fashion Daniel Erickson would've been spearheading this one all the way to the finish line!
Well put, thank you again... I agree completely.
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uh. alright man, except it works totally fine for me and goes off when gcd is done. always. unless of course I just decide to mash a button long before gcd is even finished.
I think you mash because you want to get the earliest timing possible or to avoid dropped inputs.
not because it doesn't go off. you don't notice it not going off when you just tap the button once and then start mashing. you just mash from the start. which, from every experience i had, contributes to the issue. in conclusion, stop mashing and you'll find it improves things. doesn't fix things, but certainly improves things.
Edit: I play pvp too guys. nice try though. the issue is a combination of factors. one is mashing. if you want to improve the situation for yourself in the short term, stop mashing
NO
Because, this is "adapting" to a FLAW -- STOP ADAPTING TO FLAWS. I know you meant it well but this is flat out bad advice...
Highlighted in Green: This is a valid thing to do and required in High End Competitive situations of PvE and PvP.
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This is likely a silly question, but as the OP requested rating the thread...how do you do that?
I can not find any controls while logged in that will allow me to rate, or vote up a thread?
When you reply, in that same window before hitting submit, scroll down there is a "Rate Thread" drop-down menu.
Tyvm
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<ahem> reminds xcore of her post on the second portion of this thread, from an rper's perspective ... which is reposted above, this page.
*hugs*
Thank you for re-posting this and I agree wholeheartedly with it all. I am not saying RPers are bad in any way or anything at all... I am merely suggesting that an RPer "could" potentially be someone who does not really require responsiveness.
However, having said this... looking back at your post of the importance of Responsiveness in RP as well.. I completely retract my statement and feel more educated...
Responsiveness = Immersion = Forefront of good RP (I presume, I am not an RPer at heart, apologies).
I will edit out that part but I wish you keep this post intact to showcase my education on this!
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Then explain.
BW says they are investigating. You made your points very clear.
What else is there to discuss? You made your point (clearly, as I said), and you got a BW response. 99% of people with issues don't even get that.
They wouldn't waste man hours investigating the problem if they didn't believe there was a probelm.
Just relax. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to make it better if they determine that the issue needs to be made better. For all intents, I agree with you on the responsiveness, but whipping a horse to make it go faster just hurts the horse and slows it down in the long run.
This discussion needs to continue, this emphasis to the problem and issue needs to continue. The analysis of the understanding of this "Unresponsive/Uncomfortable Feeling" needs to continue. It is the core of why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft and why nothing can or will touch it (except Titan -- Blizzard Product).
When a Bioware Developer says: "Working on it, thanks" that does NOT mean: "Ok guys, we're done here! lets move on... they're on it"...
If we thought like that in the first place, this would never have been raised, this would never have been fixed and SW:TOR will never have become the first game in the Western Market to reach 20 million subscribers in the year 2014/15...
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I will go read your post in a few minutes actually, but before I do i will supply this response.
I just wanted to make it clear I do want this fixed. I want it fixed quickly. I am not overly worried about it cause I think despite these threads and big complaints.. even on Reddit, this is being worked on as quickly as possible.
Maybe extra push from us will get it done faster, but I don't think so.
I, like many people, have worked in Customer service for years (OMG 15 years... wow.. never counted it before.) Anyways. And that once we know an issue is a priority we get on top of it. And really more complaining doe snot actually speed the issue up.. infact it can slow the fix down cause we need to waste time dealing with the customer, or supplying a quick fix while we work on the real fix.
This discussion needs to continue, this emphasis to the problem and issue needs to continue. The analysis of the understanding of this "Unresponsive/Uncomfortable Feeling" needs to continue. It is the core of why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft and why nothing can or will touch it (except Titan -- Blizzard Product).
I don't disagree with your post entirely but I need to drive home the fact that this is MORE than just "fix it now", it goes beyond that. To add, it is not a simple problem even to determine, let alone fix...
So the discussion, the pressure the evolution needs to continue..
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Stopped reading after that statement. EQ1 did not fail...
Ok, if you stopped reading there, picking on details such as that... well sir, your loss... please remain blissful in your ignorance.
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So I guess I'll just keep posting here until something happens.
Yes, and if you can be bothered, uprate
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I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.
1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.
2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.
3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.
Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.
As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.
I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.
I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.
Yes, essentially this is the major part of it all. You have a good grasp of it. I would like to add the factor of "illusion" that WoW adds through Client/Server Sync that makes it feel more fluid. A very good poster near the beginning of Thread 2 to touched upon this.
Its a bit hard to explain but the point is that everything in WoW is a bit delayed by perhaps .2-.4 seconds or so. However, this goes for everyone "and" UI response as well as Sound and Animation/Ability Effects as well as Damage are calculated to be precisely in sync with this delay.
I think a good example given is, when the WoW Server "hics up" and lags for whatever reason, your instant casts don't fire off at all but you remain visually casting it etc.
This is the one thing that still gives me some trouble understanding but I think it is crucially important to the "Feeling" of responsiveness.
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BW says they are investigating and working on it.
Not much to discuss.
You couldn't be more mistaken...
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Zironic and Sdream, thank you for being part of the discussion. Your insights are very valuable and on the money as well as very well expressed. Georg/Bioware, please pay special attention.
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In addition to this, has anyone else noticed their target changing randomly? Often, I'll target my companion on my Sorcerer and cast my shield, or even a heal on him, and the spell will hit me instead.
Also, several times the other day I was in the middle of DPSing one mob while having an elite crowd controlled, and suddenly I'd be casting on the Elite.
Targeting is a very serious issue as well and it needs to be fixed but I did not speak of it nor the camera auto-follow permanency issue because it is no-where nearly as important as the issue raised in this thread.
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You would think after warhammer and so many other failed MMO's with sluggish controls, that we would not need to make bioware aware of this issue.
Bioware had serious gamers beta test the game, tell them about this issue, and they ignored them. How could any developer of a new MMORPG at this point not realize unresponsive slug controls will make your game a disaaster?
Likely ignored because people in the office didn't understand the issue and were busy backpatting each other on creating a great game.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
This is a new one, thank you for the laugh. I thought I read before that someone said you had to right click on your target before doing an ability to fix this issue...
In any case, thank you for lack of understanding and the laugh provided...