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Xcore

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    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    yellow

     

    look at

    if this doesn't make you see just "one" case of the entire issue then there isn't much anyone can say to you. If this video does not show you the flaw in the combat design then I am not sure there is any proof you'll accept...

     

    I should say that you completely strike me as the Creationist arguing against evolution, in essence you are asking to show you the "missing link" when there is no "one missing link" but a line of links clearly on display etc.

     

    As with the above analogy, the problem isn't that its not there, it is that you are completely incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.

     

     

    I rather like the creationism/evolution analogy because it is exactly he same... in every single way.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    As you said, this thread is covering multiple issue. When im defending the game i am not saying that those issue( like the one in your video ) does not exist or are not important. What i am saying is that those issue are specific and have nothing to do with the core combat mechanic.

     

    The dev themselves said that the issue we see in this thread are a bunch of different issue. This thread is basicly covering problem with riposte(possibly every offensive off gcd ability), bug with cover, mount casting bar too short for the time it takes, ability travel time and a lot of other thing. Most of those video have nothing to do with ability delay.

     

    As for the highlighted part,

    a video of an offgcd ability firing properly.

    Note that this ability is a buff and not an offensive ability, so that might be why it work in this case and not in yours.

     

    The thing you don't understand is that

     

    1) All the examples like "Riposte issue", "Mount Issue", "Bolts -> Granade Issue", "Trinket -> Cover -> Knockback Issue" all are the same problem or derived from the same problem. There is a reason WoW has "NONE" of these and SW:TOR has "ALL" of these. The reason being that these are multiple issues coming from the core combat design/coding w/e.

     

    2) Just because "YOU" cannot experience/see/recreate/understand what people are going on about here, that DOES NOT mean in any way, shape or form that the discussed issues are incorrect or non-existant. You need to get this out of your head that you are "right", I am sorry to say it so simply and bluntly.

     

    There may be a number of factors as to why you cannot see/experience/recreate the discussed issues. Possibly you're slower, your reaction time is slower, you're a contrarian, you're blinded by the love or hatred for one company/game/type of player etc. These are all valid possibilities.

     

     

    We've had a Professional Gamer analyze it and identify it, we've had casual gamers analyze it and identify it, we've had people who didn't know it existed see this thread and understand it. I urge you to reconsider your position for the sake of this game. Currently what you and others who are "still" somehow arguing against these facts are doing is confusing those who don't fully understand this subject.

     

    After the staggering amount of support this has garnered over three threads, there is a problem and realizing that this is an over-arching problem that ALL players share (only some perceive better than others) and ALL abilities are affected by (only some showcase and others are fine) is the first step to solving it.

     

     

    Once again, I point out -- you can only list "specific" examples and "videos" to prove there "is" an issue. However, the issue is not persistent to those abilities only -- Its a Core Combat Design issue, every ability (even the ones that work perfectly) share the same problem, its just "masked" naturally due to the animation/effect w/e etc.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Xcore

    The truth is, even members of a development team may notice, but unless they work directly with these features on the animation team, or gameplay combat teams, they are not likely to get anything changed much more than we are. It's a really really huge project, and everything falls apart if people across disciplines can effect change in this kinda way... Basically what I'm saying is, it's not cool to tell others how to do their jobs. So unless someone from the design team, probably lead or higher made a splash about it, it easily could have gone under the radar. Or quite simply got put to bed early in favor of how it is now instead.

     

    What I'm trying to say is they need a proper GhostCrawler, no matter how much you may hate the man, he knows what makes a good MMO.

     

    I agree fully with all you're saying but I would just expect more "knowledge"? Connection? Understanding? by someone that matters who "can" in fact affect these overarching and very important designs.

     

    It feels like the lead designer is not very well versed with competitive or "more hardcore" gaming.

     

     

    Unless all these people are wrong in claiming this was part of the problem in Beta (I don't know, I didn't get in) and this is just a technical hiccup. I firmly believe that this shouldn't/couldn't have gotten released with the current combat and responsiveness flaws if someone higher up knew what they were doing/looking at.

     

    I'm not trying to rant against Bioware but obviously there is a pretty major issue that simply:

     

    1) Was forgotten?

    2) Overlooked?

    3) Or maybe they were never "really" aware (which is the most scary answer)

     

     

    So here again is hopes that this will be fixed and improved and communicated (soon). I should point out that you can read my early review (link in the OP). I actually enjoy the game very much otherwise and like a lot of things but how can you consider "ANYTHING" > Gameplay??

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    You definitely could be right...But at the same time, they might have been and still in the process of fixing it by going back through every single ability and etc which I could see taking a long time...Or they are not...Or they still dont know what the problem is...

     

    It's definitely wishful thinking, but hopefully when they give a public statement on it, its a "We have now fixed/singled out/close to figuring out the problem" and not a we are going to investigate it further...It might not be ultra soon, but I think BW is smart enough to fix this and not let their game become a failure and not as successful as it should be

     

    I would accept any statement that isn't incredibly vague, any honest statement including: "L2P noobs, this not WoW"... I would accept that too.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    My faith in them fixing this any time soon is low right now.

     

    There's absolutely no way that they didn't know about this. There's no way they don't have competitive gamers that work for them that didn't notice this, let alone all the posts in beta.

     

    The highlighted green is my issue, I really don't think they do... I think they consider "Competitive" something like -- "Yea, I raid!! WEEEE!"

     

    There is no snowball's chance in hell that a "Competitive" or "Very Experience" MMO Gamer would've let this go through like that.

     

     

    It makes me feel as though Bioware is made up of Writers, Artists and more technically versed people such as Coding/Animations etc. But to say they have on their team someone who really is "Hardcore" in the sense of Top100 Raiding in WoW type of Hardcore or "Gladiator" PvPer... or perhaps eSport of any other kind such as WC3, CS:S, SC2 the list goes on, I doubt that very much.

     

    And if they did, we wouldn't be talking about why it takes 3 seconds for instants to get off. This is caused by Mythic Devs/Team influence, that is my best guess.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I dont know homie...I think this thread getting to the size that it has and seeing how important it is to the people being effect (whither teeny, slightly, or severely) and etc, I really cant see them not taking this issue seriously...I think they realize that a decent amount of people are having a big problem here and thats the last thing they want for a game they worked so hard on and has so much damn potential.

     

    Yea that makes sense of course and I would wager that its true but we have had no official word on their "thoughts" really.

     

    A Ghostcrawler would actually share opinion/views etc. without much of a problem. We just got a very vague acknowledgment, mind you its still an acknowledgment and thats great but I for one am not quite sure where "they " stand on this issue so based on that how should I know where "I" stand on this.

     

    I'm one foot out the door basically, its real easy to have me come fully inside... just say something.

     

    I really see Bioware Developers and "Higher Ups" as a "Corporate Firm" kind of thing. I don't feel much of a human connection. With Blizzard there is much more of a Developer to Player connection I find, you have Blizzcon, "Many" different Blogs (addressing REAL issues and "understanding" the real issue at the Top level as well as casual level) by Developers, Blizzard Devs post on hard topic threads on the forums on a regular basis (especially GC) with in depth views and opinions (even negative things) etc.

     

    I don't mean to divert from the Responsiveness subject at hand but it ties into why I feel insecure about it currently.

     

     

    In the end I see Blizzard as Hardcore "Gamers" making high quality games not giving a f*** about how long it takes and what it costs. I know thats not exact reality but that is the perception.

     

    I see Bioware as EA's little project for big cash, I don't feel the passion. If there was passion and care, there would be posts here on this forum... not on reddit for heaven's sake.

     

    - Perhaps this is because Blizzard Devs come from a Hardcore Playing background in EQ and well I think Bioware Devs come from... something incredibly casual seemingly?.

     

     

     

    Again, these are "my perceptions" formed by the actions I see Bioware taking. Of course these could be 100% wrong, or right...

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    There is truth in this I've tested and recorded this

     

    this shows the animation issues can be corrected but there is still a ton more that needs fixing outside animations.

     

    I have no doubt it can work, I've plenty of times done combos and chains of abilities as well as held a decent rotation...

     

    Its still not as fluid and responsive but very close to WoW, but then... you have these times where 2x Instant Abilities that don't trigger GCD + another instant following those two takes upwards of 4 seconds instead of 2 ish "max".

     

     

    Georg is gonna have to dig deep with the Team on this one, hope they don't:

     

    A) Give up

    B) Pretend its fine

    C) CU or NGE <--- huehuehue

    One of "Those" threads.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I agree with most, slight hyperbole and I believe that Bioware deserves a little more time, end of January I believe is fair to re-evaluate... you will get flamed but there is no inherent problem with this OP...

     

     

    Good luck, I don't blame you but I would think that perhaps re-considering until say, end of January might be wise.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    if you want to test it, go make a sith maruader/jedi knight and spam vicious slash (and jedi equi). even though vicious slash is insta, if you SPAM it (i.e spam the button). the character will be hung on animations, and will take good 2-3 secs to actually attack

     

    You will likely face the response of "Don't Spam Noob" or "Combat is Different, No Spamming". We covered this in the middle of Thread2...

     

    Either way, yes you're right... and I'd like to add that when you get to a higher level of PvE and PvP you can't help but "spam" to minimize dead time between abilities.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I agree that it's not game-breaking for me; I'm still having plenty of fun. I just want this game to be EXCELLENT and succeed on a ridiculous level. I think having fast and responsive combat will really push it to that level.

     

    I don't believe its hyperbole when you consider the effect this has in 3 months, 6 months, 8 months 3 years from now.

     

    This very topic can be the difference between SW:TOR being Rift or WoW.

     

     

    Is it unplayable and un-enjoyable right now? That depends on who you are, personally its very close. The Pro-Gamer and hardcore crowd is likely the first to notice these deficiencies and for them its a resounding "YES". The very casual who in fact is driven by the story and the other elements outside of combat, it would be a resounding "NO".

     

    However, "fixing" (hate the term but..) this issue would elevate SW:TOR to potential excellence on the levels of WoW. I would say its not hyperbole because its a crucial decision that has to be made "now" because as history has shown us, in regards to this responsiveness issue in combat, if you fix it "down-the-line" it's too late, no-one will care anymore.

     

    With GW2 on the horizon (and it appears they have nailed this) it is a very dangerous predicament for SW:TOR to be in. It is highly possible that this issue will not be resolved to satisfaction (WoW Standards of Gameplay Response) and SW:TOR will be left with a Rift like subscriber base that is there for the Star Wars, Story etc. elements.

     

    I would consider that scenario a failure not only because of the sheer metrics but because of the "blown" potential... I state again, I fervently believe that Bioware and SW:TOR "has" the potential to be the next big thing but this is the key to it... not including LFG or Add Ons or Fixing a little bug here or there... This is it.

     

     

    Now, if they see it that way or not... who knows? We sure don't as it has not been communicate that way.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I hate it when I die in a warzone because as a smuggler I couldn't crouch for TEN SECONDS.

     

    Seriously, when 2 of your 8 classes DEPEND on an ability activating for them to do ANYTHING, then the game has to actually activate that ability with some sort of timeliness.

    And if one of you says "well you're not completely useless without cover" then I dare you to play a sharpshooter or gunslinger and not use cover in a major battle.

     

    Also, I wonder if they're going to do anything about abilities randomly canceling themselves? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use aimed shot and the game just decides that it won't work for five minutes.

     

    I play Gunslinger and yes Aimed Shot is canceling itself, IA's have the same issue with Snipe. Also I fully agree with the assessment of cover delay, its terrible... oh and thats another example of "instant"... do this for testing purposes:

     

    Smuggler:

     

    1) Get Stunned

    2) Trinket it

    3) Go into portable cover

    4) Knockback

     

    This is: Stunned -> Instant (No GCD Trigger) -> Instant (No GCD Trigger) -> Instant (GCD Triggered)

     

    So, 2 instants with no GCD triggers into another instant... this takes no less than 3-4+ seconds... how is that possible when its supposed to be under 2 seconds even if your reaction time/APM is god awful.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    As I stated above this game does not support a concept of instant in a similar manner as WoW. Although I see the point here. And I do not know of broken game mechanics as far as they are concerned.

     

    I think you're mistaken, the combat system is just flawed currently. I honestly don't think Bioware expected this kind of analysis as of their combat system and it shows inexperience or naivety. There is "nothing wrong with making a little mistake" as long as its communicated and worked out...

     

    I need to stress that I would not be so actively pursuing this subject unless I thought there was reason to believe that SW:TOR can be the next "WoW" in terms of mass success. I have not felt this way about Warhammer, Rift, Aion, LotRO etc.

     

     

    Please don't accept this as "A new and different combat style" it is simply broken:

     

    1) Interrupting Instant Casts is broken

    2) Instant Casts not being instant (more than .3 is un-accptable)

    3) Animations not in sync with UI Feedback (perfectly to the "t" is not acceptable)

    4) Sound not in sync with Animation+Effect (perfectly to the "t" is not acceptable)

    5) Animation taking priority to player input (movement, cancellation etc. is not acceptable)

    6) Ability delayed from key press to effect is not acceptable

    7) Spamming while on GCD affecting animation stutter/delay or any other bug is un-acceptable

     

     

    This list can go on... this is "not" how combat is supposed to be... unless this is Bioware's response and they tell me that "Yep, combat is just a bit different here, we like our animations etc." I cannot accept that statement.

     

    I apologize.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Well hold on there, I never said this wasn't an issue for some people.

     

    I was categorizing the issue better. There is still a complete lack of description for who, when, how, this occurs. Some people say its only one character type. Others say its every one. I see it on none. It can't be all of these things.

     

    Good luck getting it fixed but go about it right.

     

    The ability for the community to not explode after holding its breath and its face turning red with puffy cheeks within the first 2 weeks is whats going to make or break the game.

     

    The OP has several videos showcasing the issue, the 3000+ posts and 400 or so Pages have several examples.

     

     

    The is no contradiction when I say it is that combat and responsiveness as a "whole" is delayed. Every ability and every ability chain/rotation. However, some it is strongly noticeable, some it is faintly noticeable and others it isn't noticeable unless you perhaps are a Professional Gamer.

     

    I am not sure if you've read the OP at all or any of the threads or posts but there are "very many" examples:

     

    Thread 2 -- Page 109 -- Poster: Reedful (Professional Gaming Experience)

     

    His Proven Credentials: http://www.arenajunkies.com/user/174129-threatslol/

     

    WC3 Tournament Player

    WoW Tournament Player

    CS:S Tournament Player

     

    Attended regionals and most MLG events from 2008-2010

     

    Xcore: On a personal note, I value input like this a lot as this is someone with a very high understand of the intricacies of "Competitive Combat Design". I realize that the view may be a little "Hardcore" but nonetheless it is invaluable and coming from an individual that is perceiving the "Gameworld" at a higher level.

     

    "Speaking from a professional gamer's standpoint, the game is simply unplayable. It is barely possible to outplay your opponents with a 2 second median reaction time. Olympic is .4, I'd settle for .8. It is hilarious how they were bragging about taking subscriptions away from World of Warcraft when anything in this game after the single player parts might as well have been made in 2003... by Blizzard, and then discarded so their game would actually be successful.

     

    I can interrupt my own instant casts. There's at least a 1 second delay on every single one of my abilities(even instants not on the global) with a professional gaming computer and 3 MS. I live right down the road. You should hire me, throw away the Hero Engine and maybe we can fix your issues.

     

    --

     

    Say I'm CC'd by the door in Voidstar and I want to trinket to interrupt the cap - here we have a perfect example of how you've ripped off World of Warcraft almost to the letter with everything from the battleground style in this, "Warzone," to "Tenacity" AND it's cooldown, et al, holy moly.

     

    So anyway, here I am playing a WoW clone, stunned by the door. I trinket(I am not going to call it Tenacity because it is a blatant rip off of World of Warcraft and it hasn't established a real name for itself.) Nothing happens. Nothing happens for almost an entire global. I am spamming Concussion Charge. At this point I have only casted Tenacity, which does not use my global and I have waited for 1.5 seconds. Finally, the game registers that I have casted my PvP trinket, takes the cooldown 2 seconds late, frees me from my CC and allows my Concussion Charge spam to activate the ability except I get knocked back, the UI tells me my instant cast ability was interrupted and my Resolve bar has already decayed to 75%.

     

    There is no saying, "hehehe don't spam your abilities." There is no saying, "well I still like the game anyway!" There is no saying, "well if everyone has the same lag, it's balanced!""

     

    The above is only a very small example of evidence, very small. As I said if you are looking for evidence and details please take your time and read through the other threads, don't just join the discussion unless you are more informed.

     

     

     

    Secondly, the fact that you cannot experience it yourself does not mean the problem in responsiveness is not there. As well stated here:

     

    Thread 3 -- Page 13 -- Poster: Asabalana (Casual Gamer)

     

    "I am an average player who will never be on the list of greats and I see the issue very clearly. Yesterday I ran Esseles on a Trooper alt. It was painful. Spells misfired, spells cast after the gcd was over and ability bar was lit had delays before they activated. At points trying to cast while straffing was an adventure. As bad as the problem is in solo play, you can work around it, but in group play it is really bad. You feel that you are letting the group down because you can't function and play your part.

     

    Yes I have played WOW and the only thing that I liked about the game was the combat system. But I am a noob at heart. This is an issue that affects everyone. The only difference between the top tier well experienced players and noobs newbies and newcomers is that the top guys/gals can understand and verbalize why game play does not feel good. The rest just know that it does not feel good although they can't put their finger on why.

     

    I can't speak to whether this will make or break swtor, but believe that it will cost the game a great many subs and result in a great deal of lost revenue for EA/BW. It will cost the loss of most of the top tier players who although small in number contribute a lot to the game and community.

     

    The game still has a lot of bugs. LOL, yesterday a level 17 player asked for help with a boss in general. I responded with my 26 JC Shadow. We fought the boss and he was killed quickly but I got the boss to 0 health and the thing still kept fighting. That went on for ten minutes and the boss just kept on with 0 health and would not drop. I told the person that I was trying to help that the instance was bugged and that he should just move on. No big deal (one bugged quest out of thousands that will be fixed eventually). But the combat system problems are a prime big deal. They need to be given top priority with communication to the community and be fixed post haste. Otherwise people will start leaving the game. It will be a real shame because most of the people who end up leaving really like the game and want to play, but find it not playable because of the combat issue.

     

    To the OP, I think that BW owes you big time. You have identified and described a problem and forced their attention to it. BW is much better off facing this right now than rather seeing subs drop and somewhere down the line when it is way to late identifying why."

     

     

     

    After reading these items I urge you to look through the videos listed in the OP.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    You are convinced about what you are seeing - and so you see it everywhere. Do not tell me what I see on my screen. I do not have these issues. There is more than one way to interpret a video recording. My interpretations are more than valid and hold their own merit.

     

    I can detect the difference of the refresh rate on my monitor between 59hz and 60hz, I know the difference between instant and 0.5 second delay. Sorry to say - I know that I have none of the issues you are talking about. I never said no one did, but I do not - and you cannot unequivocally say EVERYONE does.

     

    Gee dude, keep some composure while formulating your statements. You're just ranting now.

     

    I am defeated, I cannot respond to you in any manner that prevents me getting an infraction and deletion of posts (such as the quoted).

     

    May I ask you to stop posting in this thread now that we have made clear that you do not in fact have any delay or other issue play SW:TOR?

     

     

    Your previous posts have proven that this issue, is really no issue at all. Georg, please... do not waste any more effort on this subject. Everything is fine and ok -- the combat is not only "as" responsive as World of Warcraft it is (I dare say) "more" responsive... everyone is a winner here and soon the 10 million subscribers will applaud the BDF.

    This forum is starting to scare me.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Because the people supporting this game are playing it. Only the trolls are left on the forums so that would give the game a bad rep if you read the forums first before playing the game.

     

    Actually the people who care about the maximizing of SW:TOR's long term success and "are supporting this game" are attempting to raise awareness with the developer that there are some serious issues that need considering...

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I managed to record 2 of the problems in a single-mob fight.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTX3VYtZGhE

    (Please excuse video quality. Just push 480p button on video. You can see what happens pretty easily :D)

     

     

    1. I roll into Natural Cover(Shift + F)

    2. Begin casting Ambush

    3. Something makes Ambush stop firing and causes it to be 'Cancelled'(castbar stops)

    4. Cast Ambush again

    5. GCD finishes

    6. Castbar for Ambush finishes

    7. Begin to cast Snipe

    8. Snipe castbar is cancelled very quickly from Ambush animation

     

    Xcorp, feel free to use in your OP should you choose.

     

    edit: spelling ;)

     

    Yes it displays another flaw the random cancellation as well as delay in everything...

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Is that a joke? You can see that you AREN'T even pushing a button to activate the ability until a full second after the last one landed. The icon would flash if you were spamming it....

     

    You're beyond hope, I will not dignify you with another response... absolutely incredible how dense you are. You should just be greatful for all the people trying to make the game a greater success for you and your enjoyment.

     

    Before you reply "hurr durr, I'm enjoying it already" -- You'll be enjoying it a lot more when it has 10+ million subs because its not broken.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    @Xcore.

     

    Here is another video clearly demonstrating ability delay as well as ability jamming and bugging out/failure to cast on a ~20 ms connection

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fc79BNC-zI

     

     

    Thank you for that video, I'm not sure what is happening towards the end even when everything is done: GCD, Cast Time, Animation etc.

     

    This appears to be an evolution of the problem, at first it was delayed, then it was misfiring and at the end it just laughed at you saying "I'm not healing nothing... lol".

     

     

    Infuriating to see this gameplay... added to OP.

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Oh, this forum is only for "hardcore" gamers who need a venting outlet?

     

    Fact is you have no idea why this affects some people and doesn't affect others - because there have been NO comments on the topic. Other than BW acknowledging that there is "ability delay" - you have no information to conclude this affects more than a handful of people. The number of posts on this topic of people saying they have this issue is so miniscule compared to the total population of the game.

     

    To claim you know FOR SURE why this happens or that it affects everyone is a flat out lie.

     

    Go read Thread 1 and 2, there are "many" examples, go watch videos in OP... stop being so ignorant... stop being such a contrarian BioDrone, how much is the BDF paying you to act as though you have lost all critical thinking faculty?

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