Xcore
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Xcore,
I have but one question for you regarding my post above yours and the one it is replying to. Do you think that the situation described in the post i was replying to is an accurate description of the problem? If not, then ok, that illustrates the mixed comments here.
If so, how do you account for my findings versus his/her findings? Especially considering your stance that it is a game wide problem that affects everyone.
As a side note, in my example (since I can indeed interrupt charged burst after the timer expires) it boils down to making a decision as to whether I want the damage from a full CB animation or whether I want to sacrifice a portion of it to another ability that may be more effective at the time.
thanks.
Veevito, I agree with your position and believe the person you quoted was not expressing themselves correctly perhaps.
I am not in game currently but the Charged Burst example (issue) is displayed in one of the videos on the OP. However I should mention that this entire unresponsive feeling and Avatar disconnect is multi-layered, it is affected by the GCD being incorrect, it is affected by the favoring of animation vs. input (letting animation finish etc.), it is affected by stuttery animation and delayed response when "spamming" an ability to catch it the millisecond it comes off of the GCD for example... etc.
So again, your position in regards to charge burst is correct I believe but the overall problem persists and in the case of Charge Burst the video in the OP displays it well.
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Original Poster: Thoughts and Reflections
This one is for me:
After hundreds and hundreds of pages, 2,500+ responses and 100,000+ views, I feel the need to gather my thoughts into one post. I believe this issue to be integral, crucial not just for SW:TOR but for the MMO Genre as a whole, I believe we may be sitting on the most well defined, naturally evolved understanding of this subject in one place. This is something special… and I thank all of you very much.
This has gotten bigger than SW:TOR for me now, I am passionately trying to raise this issue and awareness with Bioware because I believe in SW:TOR and I want to believe in Bioware. However, I hope that this goes beyond SW:TOR and Bioware and future developments take this subject into deep consideration so that we may finally, finally get away from WoW.
Believe it or not, I have undertaken the task of saving “every” single post from my OP all the way until the bitter end of this discussion to my computer in the hopes to save this collective, evolved and analysed “understanding and comprehension” of this enigmatic phenomenon that keeps WoW in its own league and Blizzard laughing at all these other companies, trying to emulate but never really understanding. I think the importance is not only on the answer or solution to the problem but rather, how we’ve come to understand the problem in the first place. I maintain, anyone can learn a lot from re-reading the entire thread. The words of the many posts analysing this certain, undefinable characteristic, that none can quite put their finger on is absolutely crucial to making better MMOs.
This post is on page “whatever” (I don’t even know yet until its posted!) and it may get lost to the newcomers posting at the end of the line but nonetheless, it is important first and foremost to me as a gamer (more specifically MMOer), customer of a certain product and generally passionate realist who simply wants to raise awareness for a better, more “responsive” future
Thank You all for the stimulating discussions, the support and the awareness you have brought to this topic.
This one is for YOU:
The one who has been with this topic fervently since first stumbling upon it, perhaps on Page 2 or Page 102. You, the one who feels as though “finally” the finger has been put on what until now was only a vague feeling of discomfort. You, the one who loves this genre, for your own reasons of competition and measuring yourself amongst hundreds and thousands of others around the world. You, the one who enjoys nothing more than the co-operative challenge of solving the dynamic puzzles in PvE content through teamwork, co-ordination, communication and dedication.
You the one who understands this uncomfortable feeling of not having complete control of all actions of your Avatar at all times. You, the one who does not accept mediocrity in Combat Mechanics and Character Responsiveness. The feeling of disconnected “sluggishness” that you perceive in every other MMO with the exception of the one you are trying to get away from!
All I can say to you is, don’t sit back, don’t give up… this form of entertainment (The MMO) is amazing and the evolution of it is important as well as “worth it”. Start here, and take this further, how far? However far you can or want. In-Game tickets, detailed explanations… keep analysing, understanding and research is the most important part and then share it with the developer of whichever game you’re going after or the community itself as we have done here.
A great example: by Tinkersw <--- <3
http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2011/12/ability-delay-character-responsiveness.html
Do this until finally “every” MMO developer starts with the foundation of “Responsive Combat” and moves on from there. Whatever you do, keep on fighting this cause…. because “you are right” and this is not an opinion or subjectivity… it is an objective, intelligent fact.
Lastly, thank you for participating and supporting the furthering of this difficult topic.
This one is for YOU:
The one who is not quite sure what the fuss is all about, the one who is baffled by the piping up of this obvious but seemingly vocal minority. You, the one who is enamoured with SW:TOR since you got to log on for the first time after all this wait! Now, perhaps in your lvl20s-30s, you happily cruise through the worlds, the missions and flashpoints, loving every minute you spend in this universe.
I feel for you, you go about your business of enjoying and having fun and you will never truly know what “could be” if this topic were addressed. I truly mean it when I say, “I hope SW:TOR is and will continue to bring you joy for years”.
However, I must add that I can only ask of you to be objective and truly divorce yourself from your love of SW:TOR and Bioware as well as your hatred for WoW and Blizzard and re-analyze this topic with the utmost critical thinking that you can muster.
There is something wrong here and everyone claiming it, these people piping up their concerns and attempting to raise this awareness are doing it for you and your benefit because the truth is that you will only benefit. It is absolutely ok to disagree with this statement. I just hope truly that one day, perhaps years from now at some other game somewhere you will realize what is being discussed here today and see all of this from a different perspective. At that point (if it comes), all of this will have been worth it, you too will be demanding more, demanding better connection between yourself and your Avatar.
Lastly, I would like you to at the very least, take serious the gravity of the topic. It is something that has eluded projects and companies that have invested hundreds of millions of dollars. It is the reason for failures of magnitudes hard to imagine. This is not easy to define, comprehend or discuss and it is ok for you to not be completely in tune with those yelling around you. I’d just like you to give it a try objectively, and don’t get discouraged if it doesn’t click right away.
This one is for YOU:
The one who is fervently and passionately opposed to the notion that there is any disconnect or unresponsive feeling at all! You, the one who comes into the discussion claiming to fix it by setting the “Queue Timer to 0.0”. You, the one who believes that this unresponsive gameplay design is actually a FEATURE of the game itself! Believing it to be a stance by Bioware to prevent “Button-Mashing” or “Bunny-Hopping” and exploiting! You, the one who believes that the unresponsive behavior of animations overriding UI feedback is a positive and a good thing! You, the one who claims to “adapt” to obvious gameplay deficiencies for fear of betraying your loyalty instead of showing your true passion by making said game better (objectively) and more successful for all involved.
To you dear sir/madam, I have nothing nice to say. With your actions, blinded by your support for a Game and Company and/or hatred for another, you are accomplishing nothing but the downfall of what you “believe” you love so dearly. Furthermore, you are impeding the betterment of the Genre as a whole, you are impeding the evolution of understanding, learning what makes a “better” game.
Lastly, you are the reason (if continuing), the real reason that WoW and Blizzard will reign supreme for as long as they please. You likely waited for years for SW:TOR yourself, only to be unable to see the forest for the trees.
The only hope I have is for you to snap out of it for lack of a better term, to lower your defenses as no-one is truly attacking you at all. If this is possible, then we would all only benefit and gain from having you and together we could overcome the stagnation currently in this Genre.
This one is for YOU: Bioware – Electronic Arts – LucasArts
This thread and more specifically this post is for me to large degree, freeing my thoughts and progression of thoughts over the past 2500+ replies. However, I “know” that this has not escaped you. I know that your eyes are scanning these very lines, right this moment.
Nothing but passion for SW:TOR has evoked my OP as well as this post. I still believe in you and that your hearts are in the right place, even without any acknowledgement I still want to believe. I know this is not an easy predicament for you, I can imagine how much is riding on this entire project for you.
What you need to know, is that every single person who has posted so very passionately in this very long and elaborate thread is behind you and still does believe in you. No-one wants to go back to WoW. However, your continued silence betrays this belief, trust and hope with each passing hour. I do recognize your Q&A response earlier. However, it would be very sensible to simply drop a line in this thread, a simiple -- "Hey, we're here... carry on". No matter what meetings you’ve had in regards to this thread and topic, do not miscalculate on this subject – I only hope that you have the wisdom to realize the gravity.
All the story you have laboured so hard over, all the animations that look so amazing, the musical score and SFX of top quality, the game systems and mechanics that make SW:TOR unique will all be undone by the Gameplay Responsiveness, that 0.5 seconds will undo 10,000+ hours of everything else. Most people will simply leave never being able to put their finger on why “it just felt clunky”…
I neither blame you nor spite you, in fact I truly hope that “if anything” at all, you can see and feel the passionate sincerity with which I and everyone supporting this thread/topic is attempting to help you deliver the BEST MMO of ALL Time.
Very lastly, I will mention to you and everyone that I have gone the next step of trying to “help” by contacting Bioware Austin via phone (long distance from Toronto Canada) only to find an automated response and an answering machine. However, I have left my concern, I have pointed you towards this thread and I have left my contact information in case you would extend the offer for more detailed dialogue and clarification/brainstorming and analysis.
This is all from me,
Thank YOU for reading and apologies for the lack of tl;dr…
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Wanted you to see this Xcore if you havent already.Tried to PM this to you but that feature does not seem to working atm.
http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2011/12/ability-delay-character-responsiveness.html
Driving home now! I'll check it out soon... Bioware reddit response is mildly encouraging, I would prefer something within the thread, doesn't have to be concrete plan, just a "hey, we're here, carry on"
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Thank you to you and others that have filled in for Xcore!
I sure hope we havent lost him to all these trolls!!
Nope, I'm still here and I have read every post I'm this thread as well. I would encourage people to get back to discussing the actual issues as in yhe first thread and stop attacks. Also, I would encourage ignoring the more obvious trolls.
I am leaving work in about 30min, in about 1 hour I will post my thoughts spanning the entire subject and a special message to Bioware.
Thanks Tinker
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Well, I just played a full day at lvl 50 BH Merc, another day of not one time experiencing this supposed problem. Another day of queuing an attack on the ending animation of the previous one, another day on no space between attacks or animations whatsoever.
Thought it was just other classes that apparently had this supposed "problem" since my Merc has never had it, till I hear others claim their BH Merc's have all these supposed problems, Unload not firing off, etc.
Stop. Mashing. the Effing. Buttons.
And don't try and say that's not the problem. Cause it is. At least in those cases, it is.
And don't try the old "well you just take too long!" Phht. My attacks are coming off as fast as any player in this games. Cause they can't get any faster. I'm queuing attacks up on the hind-end of the one before it, before it's even quite finished.
Hell, sometimes I can get 2 instant attacks to fire nearly simultaneously.
Maybe other classes are having problems, but I've not had it on the Merc. I have noticed the cooldown and animations aren't always ending the exact same time for certain moves, and that should be tweaked and fixed... though it makes no difference to me, as I go 90% by animation anyhow.
I have no problem getting two abilities off at the same time, this means nothing AT ALL. Please accept that for different potential reasons, you are not sensitive enough, in tune enough to recognize this glaring problem. This does not mean it doesn't exist...
Simply because you don't have knowledge of or an answer to a question or a problem, that does not mean It Is not there...
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No he is not wrong...You have had a good amount of people post saying they are not experiencing the problem...How is he wrong???
I wont lie, I rarely will have a situation in pvp that I will hit the button and nothing will happen...but its not often...And that same situation has happen to me in WOW as well
Accept this or do not but the #1 I've learned from this thread is that the issue is in the core design of the game, mechanically and thus it is universal. There is a median, a good amount of people who for many different possible reasons simply are not sensitive enough to truly notice and appreciate this problem.
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Can't stress enough that this is an issue that does not affect everyone. This isn't about some people getting used to, it just that some people don't have this issue.
I think it would be more constructive if we'd collect information about settings, connection and so on.
I'd also strongly encourage those affected to ticket this issue with as much details as possible. As I don't know what details about system spec and game settings is submitted along the ticket it might be useful to include that information, too.
My wife and I are running the game with the "Use Quickslot On Key Press" option off and "Ability Action Queue Window" at 0.5.
Also I remember that when WoW introduced their use action on key press option, some players reported this was causing delays for them.
I am sorry but you are 100% wrong, it is game wide. Please read some of the 2400 posts in the previous thread... Every few pages someone like you pipes in. It is tiresome to have to explain over 2000 posts worth of logic and discussion to make you see this.
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It needs to be acknowledged the problem isnt with the animations..This is the way SWTOR is doing their combat...The problem is in the execution when hitting the button...
All of you are right when you say the ability should start as soon as you hit the button....But thats the real problem...Not the damage corresponding with the animation
I don't disagree but I think there may be more to it behind the scenes.
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This issue is unbelievable.
This is evident everywhere, from mounting to capturing nodes in Ald or VS. There is a .5 second window after you finish the cast timer on either arming or disarming, or capping a point wherein which you can still be interrupted.
This. is. game. breaking.
As a healer, doing level 50 HM's it is absolutely necessary at times for me to chain cast to keep my team alive. Derp, back to back cast timers actually can do a number of things:
* Cancel out your ability totally, while still playing the animation but no effect
* Cancel out the animation but still apply the effect (in this case a heal)
* Get caught in a jerky animation bug where every time I try to cast an ability I will do a quick animation start then it will be canceled, when I try again (about a split second later) I will get the jerk start/stop bug again, this will repeat over and over for a time. This has caused deaths and wipes and repair bills.
This is absolutely debilitating to high level play, in the worst way. We're gearing up to start raids very very soon and can you imagine trying to take bosses with this buggy combat system?
Uggh.
I don't do this often but: quoted for emphasis
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It needs to be acknowledged the problem isnt with the animations..This is the way SWTOR is doing their combat...The problem is in the execution when hitting the button...
All of you are right when you say the ability should start as soon as you hit the button....But thats the real problem...Not the damage corresponding with the animation
Sadly, its far more complex than that, the original thread goes into this deeply before page 100. Just to mention a part of it is the way animations link or should link/clip in succession within a tight rotation for example.
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Well it doesnt help when its the last post on the page and it gets skipped...This is a relevant post and people need to read it..period...you doing shameless bumps is no different so get off your high horse
This thread doesn't require shameless bumps, please dont post your previously doubled response again, it has been added to the thread... anyone serious about this issue would and should have read through the last thread and this one.
p.s.: my horse is still in the shed
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Post got lost quickly. Im gonna keep posting this until it is fully understood by everyone!!!
WE HAVE 2 SEPERATE ISSUES BLENDING INTO 1
1. Damage corresponding with the animations
2. Bugged execution where abilities are not instantly starting after hitting the button or not activating at all.
Now to elaborate a little bit:
1. This is a slightly different mechanic then WoW which calls for more visual appeal and will take some getting used to for sure. I personally like it and I do not want it removed..But thats just my personal preference.
2. Which is the real issue and I am sure it can be fixed with some effort from devs and I dont believe it to be a core problem. I completely agree that the attack/animation should start immediately and since its not, its causing the animations to last longer then the GCD and making some skills to not happen at all upon pressing the button...Its a bug situation and I am most positive it can be fixed!!! I dont experience this delay or no response much at all, but I would be lying if I said it never happens...
To me number 2 is effecting number 1 but they are still 2 different situations which are being combined in to 1 problem. Even if number 2 is resolved, its still going to take a little adjustment on your part to get used to but I think EVERYONE will enjoy it that much more if the abilities start imeediately and work flawlessly...I AM VERY CONFIDENT TO SAY THIS CAN/WILL BE FIX but its probably not extremely easy and there for takes some time...
I AGREE THAT A DEV WITH EXPERIENCE IN THIS DEPARTMENT NEEDS TO SPEAK TO THE COMMUNITY ON THIS
Please don't double lost like that... This isn't 4chan no offense, if your post is relevant it will carry weight without spamming. If everyone did this we would have complete chaos.
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Hello,
This thread was restarted now as it exceeded limitation. I am the OP and deeply passionate about this subject as I believe it is not only the reason why the general MMO Gamer is so frustrated coming Into any new MMO from WoW but by proxy it is also the reason we have WoW remain so strong and hold such a stranglehold on the genre.
It is beyond unbelievable that no developer to date has been successful in achieving and emulating. Perhaps even more bizarre is that no developer seemingly has even realized this obvious truth... whichever does will be cashing in "big time" as everyone is tired of WoW.
Lastly, i am at work until 6 EST but I am going to prepare a very long and detailed as well as thorough post of my thoughts in regards to the past 2000+ posts. I should mention that i have read every single post in the last thread as well as this one.
I only urge you to please:
a) Read the original thread, the key to "everything" is there and you can see the evolving understanding.
b) do not deviate the discussion. Stop the WoW bashing, comparisons etc. Stay focused on the subject at hand.
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@Xcore: I made the riposte video in support of this thread, I'll gladly keep my recording software going while I play these next few days and see if I can get a nice compilation of bugs. Anything to make this game perfect!
yea that'd be great, that helps a lot. Visual evidence is the best thing we can get to define and explain to those who don't necessarily see it.
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You can add my video showing the problem with responsiveness of Force Sweep If you want to. Here it is (Lots of ppl already seen it I guess) :
Yea I've seen that one and I like it but I'm not sure if its a bit too confusing, I think its best when you see it in a scenario such as the one I added where you were fighting the elite and Riposte just did not happen...
This one is kind of confusion a bit, unless I'm just being a simpleton... I'd rather have this one bouncing around the thread instead of OP...
However, if you would like to (or anyone) make a concrete video that takes a few minutes, with several good examples and commentary and best possibly compare to WoW standard within the same video, I would absolutely glorify the hell out of that video in the OP. I think that would be great and help everyone understand this more.
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I made a video showing a brief example of animation cancelling, just one of the issues bogging down character responsiveness. At about 0:13 my Riposte (number 5 skill) lights up and becomes available. I spam the button, and watch as my character proceeds to reset his animation every time I hit it. This is a reoccuring problem, and others have experienced it as well.
Before it's asked, no I didn't have lag, my latency remains stable and at 4 bars (in the bottom right).
Very nice video example of melee specifically, tyvm Devolution... adding to OP.
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Xcore, I think you need to let up a bit on the vitriolic responses. Let me be clear, I agree with the fact that the delay is annoying. I have seen it when trying to cast Dark Infusion and seeing the delay on it.
However, I can understand that people are generally not gonna be able to read more than 10 pages of a thread. Most posts within the ten pages tend to be simply people saying they agree with what you said. Would you want to read a book that had thirty pages in a row where there were only two new sentences per page you read and everything else looked like lines you write when you get punishment in school?
This is what leads a lot of people to not read that many pages.This being said, I don't see this as a thing that will cause the demise of the game. While it is rather annoying, it is also NOT the reason why WoW is so popular. WoW is so popular due to its minimalistic computer requirements, ridiculously easy leveling concept, and a huge crowd of fanatical Warcraft fans(from previous Warcraft games). The latter is the reason why I this will not be something that can cause TOR to fail. Star Wars has a huge following itself, from movies to games that will keep it going for a while.
I apologize if you covered this and perhaps already said that it will last a certain period of time before even the fan tires of what you are referring to.
You're right about the green txt, I believe you're very wrong about the red.
I'm not sure how much better I can put it really, WoW is absolutely where it is for many reasons, some of which you listed and many more BUT it is vitally important for gamers and developers to subjectively understand the fact that the #1 reason is the "feeling" of "smooth gameplay" which this entire thread is about. Responsiveness is absolutely the #1 defining characteristic about WoW.
You know the funny thing is, this "feeling" of responsiveness is so very hard to define in the concept of an MMO (because its so new!) that there simply is not more understanding on this topic. Everyone leaves WoW, everyone hates WoW because of so many things that suck about it... but everyone "plays" WoW, why!? When you ask, generally you get the response of "it just feels better than X game, its less clunky, I dunno".
The #1 Quality of "any" game I would argue has got to be Responsiveness, if you are not your avatar, everything is over. All the walls crumble and expose the ugly interior, some games have stronger Walls (Rift, LotRO?) some weaker (Warhammer) but in the end, even though it is many failings that brought them down (PvP sucked, PvE sucked, Buggy w/e) the #1 thing will always be the disconnect between the Keyboard and the guy you created before you ever entered the world.
I believe it is vital to try to understand this, There is no amount story, there is no animation cool enough to override "absolute and complete" control of your Avatar... because your Avatar IS YOU, as soon as this illusion is broken, it is all over.
Its all a feeling, so hard to define... 200 hours of story go down the drain to .5 seconds of delay between me and Xcore.
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No worries, once I get the time to gather an understanding, I'll hold you to it.
Thanks for understanding, I'm gonna go ahead and leave my horse in the shed lol... your assessment was right.
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Well excuse me for trying to gather a quick understanding. I do plan to skim through for highlights, nothing high horses at all. Especially compared to your elitist belittling and horrendous attitude displayed to multiple users (I smell a theme here). Talking to you is an egregious waste of time. I'm finished. ***** at someone else.
Its just that after this much discussion of the subject and countless new people coming in needing explanations (even though the info is within the thread) at some point it becomes too much.
So when someone who is new to the topic comes into the thread and says:
"Yall havn' a mighty fine tread in hee, jus' poppin' awn in to see whats its all bout', can yall fill me in right quick?"
The response will be something along the lines of "Go Read P50-80" etc.
I apologies for being overly offensive, its late... I am tired and slightly annoyed with the subject at hand itself...
I do apologize Solevillain and I hope you do skim through a bit and then ask away, I promise to be less of an *** and there are many far more intelligent and nice people part of this thread who will likely answer much better.
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A nice 3 seconds on ravage in melee range while you twirl and whirl your sabers and can't move and eat everyone's cc and burst. With level 50s premades all over the place in pvp now on my server it's a death every time .... Guaranteed.
At least you're twirling, my guy just looks real serious pointing his guns for about 3 seconds.
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My god, get off your self righteous high horse. Your arrogance is astounding. I'd love to discuss this with more level headed individuals, as you are clearly not. Far from it.
To discuss it you need an understanding, this can be gotten by reading through what previous discussions have taught us. The horse you're on, appears to be far too tall to come down from to read through this, thus... you're right, no discussion with me I suppose.
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I on the other hand found myself unable to use defensive cooldown at boss when it mattered because character was too busy performing parrying animation there's gazillion examples.
And conflict between core/animation causes general clunkyness of combat. It seems abilities and talents were tuned without taking animations in account.
Also it's a balance issue since classes and their mirrors have different animation timers on ability counterparts resulting in one of them becoming stronger (for no good reason)
I've tanked competitively in WoW, I've tanked to 23 on Jedi Knight here, no way... this is "to me anyways" the single most hilarious example of this combat system's "failure?". A tank dying because he can't go defensive CD, because he is busy parrying... I mean comon, you can't make that up...
Fyi, there is a reason I don't play my Jedi Knight anymore, I am now much happier putting up with my Gunslinger's unresponsive cover->x ability or generally unresponsive rotation chaining, as well as the infamous Aimed Shot canceling itself halfway through animation cast for no reason, did I mention its a long f'kin cast?
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Explain the rest of the small (or large) problems briefly. Your topic post isn't enough.
The understanding of the entire problem has been worked through and evolved within this thread, you need to "read"... and attempt to understand it with an open mind to the subject. This is a very hard to define and pinpoint issue, don't make it out to be so simplistic...
If you cannot be bothered to actually read through the very, very intelligent discussion and analysis that has been taking place over a large part of the past 200 pages then continue down your path of ignorance but please keep your arrogance from the back end of a 200+ page long thread.
You are not contributing, you are not comprehending and I am not about to "surmise" a 200 Page evolving discussion for "My special little snowflake" here...
Apologies.
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Your sayin it isnt acceptable in a game like WoW where the combat is the way it is. Combat here is different thats why it is what it is. .5 seconds will not make break something.
In fact your posts states that "Imagine this in a game like WoW" well sorry but where not in WOW this SW:TOR, and they always said they wanted to make the animations tight.
IMO wrong game for you move along.
Perhaps you're right, if you are right and this is Bioware's official stance on this entire subject then fine... I'm out, and I believe this will be Rift 2.0 (maybe I'm wrong, who cares I'll enjoy WoW again I suppose).
However, how about you pull that Bunny out of your Magic Hat and have it actually respond so we can put this to rest? Or so we can start a bit of open dialogue with said Bunny.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
Sorry, I actually don't think of myself that highly... I guess I just come off that way. Its mostly everyone else who did the hard work to discuss the issue from Page 20 - 100 in the original thread.
As I said, that post was just a way for me to release the utter ****storm in my head from reading every single post in the past two threads on this subject.