Xcore
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Terrible understanding of the issue... 2/10 (Generous)
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nothing to say that hasnt already been said, stripped the words out of my brain. Loving the game deeply, but as soon as i go into a "warzone" its heartbreaking. Also originating in Australia my delay to american servers are amplified, not to mention the responsivness on top of that
. "supported" !!
General lag and latency absolutely amplifies the feeling. Sluggish combat mechanics/delay + Lag and you're looking at 7+ seconds to get Trinket (Instant/No Trigger GCD), Cover (Instant, No Trigger GCD), Knockback (Instant).
The above should be under 2 seconds.... it is impossible to do under 4.
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wat do?
Wait until Tiron_Raptor breaks this down into latency, lag, your system and "a bug" for "one animation".
Or reality, realize that its a multitude of issue culminating into an overall problem with responsiveness of your avatar (the feeling), essentially delay.
To get the absolute details on the individual issues and causes... they are laid out all over 4 threads and within videos (some) in the OP.
To truly understand the multiple layers of this problem, you have to research some of the discussion. It would also be wise to read through: (It discusses the Hero Engine)
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That's a new one on me... very odd. Sounds like some kind of lag issue off the top of my head, but that really isn't enough info to make a reliable guess with... if the stuff that wasn't firing was stuff that was supposed to ignore the GCD, there's for-sure a problem with that, that from what I've seen looks like the 'ignore GCD' code function isn't working properly, if at all.
As for when the GCD was off and the ability was lit... that I don't have a clue about. Failing to register for some reason obviously, but why? I don't even know where to start with that one.
And I never said there weren't real issues that are problems that need addressing: I've stated that most of the things brought up as being 'delay' are no such thing, and one of the things people seem to think is a 'delay' doesn't actually delay anything.
Pretty sure with this one trick pony, every single thing is a lag/latency issue... and I mean "everything".
Lets not even mention the Smuggler Video in the OP etc... nope, all just a bit of lag
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If you are experiencing a delay, one of three things is happening: your system is crap, your connection is crap, or you're under the mistaken impression that what you see on your screen has more than a vague connection with what actually happens or when.
What I WANT, is for people to think, to analyze, to experiment. To find the actual, real problems and help get them fixed, rather than mindlessly insisting that it 'just doesn't work right' without any demonstrable proof to back it up.
If it isn't repeatable, it isn't real. Basic science right there.
ROFL, omg... now I actually lol'd at 1:06am in bed... bravo sir.
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Tiron, read my post above yours. Ignore response issues. You can NOT argue the problem of Project vs Shock.....That's unarguable for anyone....
That is actually just bad class balancing, sadly has nothing to do with this thread.
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Tiron, drop it. You aren't winning anybody over towards your cause. After following these latest discussions I've come to the conclusion that you simply want to argue and debate.
There is something definitely wrong with character responsiveness. Many competitive gamers, including myself, can readily tell that the way this game executes abilities is clunky and slow. For some of you, this is acceptable. For those that hope this game will at some point have a high skillcap (it currently does not), we need as a basis a clean and crisp UI that responds predictably.
Hell, I have never lost a match in the "other" game and blamed character responsiveness. It never even entered my mind that a command I issued to my toons wasn't executed exactly the way I intended. However, in SW:ToR it seems like I'm often playing a casino game and I'm more surprised than not when something works properly. Whatever the cause - it needs to be addressed. Hopefully, the vague responses we have received from developers so far acknowledging the issue will result in concrete fixes. We shall see.
He is just a general troll, we have 1-4 per thread... your post is spot on...
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That's not a delay: that's non-GCD abilities not working right. As demonstrated amply by the video with riposte making the guy do the funky chicken until the GCD ends.
There's a difference between 'doesn't work' and 'works, but way late'.
The former is 'broken' the latter is 'delay'.
We have the former, we do NOT have the later, except with the appearance of the animations and a minor problem with the ability queue.
Your continued tirade on Latency, Client/Server Communication is "incredibly" off-point. With each further post parroting the same **** you really showcase your lack of understanding.
Please, another wall-of-text regarding latency, client/server communication effects. Solving our entire discussion/debate because in the end "everything is just fine" and its just some cosmetic semantics that we're really going on about. Right ol' chap?
lol, you're hilarious... "One Trick Pony" comes to mind...
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[/color]In short, people are asking bioware to make the game look worse in order to fix a minor cosmetic annoyance while claiming it's 'game breaking', when in fact it doesn't affect the game at all!
lol, you are so ridiculously deluded its epic.
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...I'm not sure exactly what this means, it doesn't really entirely make sense to me.
what I've been saying is that the animation is a cosmetic nicety and nothing more: that it in fact has nothing at all to do with when the ability is used or when the damage is dealt. These things occur on the server, where there are no animations, and what you see is merely your client's representation of what the server is telling it about the state of the game world and all the objects within it.
You're incredibly dense and continuously arguing against established facts. If you are unable to catch the meaning behind my quoted post, I cannot (will not) help you.
Continue with your argument of network (Client/Server Communication) delay, discounting all the other factors that play a role.
Continue believing that in fact, there is no real "delay" at all
etc.
Good day sir.
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As I explained in detail at the bottom of the first page here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1162489#post1162489
This is a network latency issue. Your client is SIMULATING you getting on your mount at the end of its ESTIMATED castbar, in anticipation of the state of things on the server, in order to avoid an obvious network-latency delay that would be quite jarring.
What happens is that somehow, your 'I moved' message generated after you client simulated you on your mount got the server before it thought you were mounted, and it sent back that your mount attempt was cancelled by the movement, which causes the client to abruptly correct its state by 'dismounting' you.
In fact, you were never mounted at all, it just LOOKED like you were on your client.
This is true, this is ONE of many flaws, this is still a BIG flaw.
Castbar completes = Mounted, no "if", "but'", "when", "who" or "how".
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I should note: (I am mildly comforted by this) -- Well played Mr. Amatangelo
http://www.swtor.com/blog/new-year%E2%80%99s-pvp-update
Combat Gameplay: You’ll see several optimizations come online in January, and we are going to continue to tune this as time goes on.
Gabe Amatangelo
Principal Lead PvP, Operations & Flashpoints Designer
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Only if you're so ignorant that you're unwilling to change your mind, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
That is not a reasonable position.
You're the one that's defensive. Insulting and attacking me in ways that I've just barely held off flagging you for.
I watched about half of the videos initially, but not closely, because on a cursory examination of most of them *I DID NOT SEE ANY DELAY PROBLEM IN EVIDENCE.*
That first one I analyzed for example: What I see is the ability successfully firing while the animation for the first is still playing.
You're conflating the playing of the animation with the use of the ability, which is NOT the case. On any game since about 2001 or so.
How do you not comprehend that no-one here is stupid enough to believe that the "Animation" literally shoots out the frostbolt that does the damage?
Green: Once again, every time you make this statement or any like statement, you invalidate your entire standpoint and credibility.
P.S.: The more posts I read of yours the more I am lead to believe that you are a Bioware Developer.
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Dude, just ignore him.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually helped design and develop the game.
I was considering that possibility, I would not at all be surprised...
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Alright, I've analyzed that video. () Here's what I see:
He uses charged blast on the first target, the GCD fires before he's released the button, then switches targets and starts spam-clicking that grenade-thing a tiny, miniscule fraction of a second before the GCD finishes. There is a slight delay after the GCD finishes before the next GCD fires. When it goes, it is just AFTER what appears to be his second keypress(can't be sure without frame-by-frame), in stark contrast to his first ability use, where it was blatantly simultaneous. The animations play normally, if late, and both abilities are used successfully.
That slight delay after the GCD *IS* significant: it appears to be EXACTLY the ability action queue problem I described. He definitely hits the button for the first time just fractionally BEFORE the GCD finishes. If the GCD went off simultaneous with the second keypress I'd assume that he had his queue set to 0.0 and it activated on the second, as it is it looks like he had his queue active and the proximity of the second keypress to the activation is likely just a coincidence.
No, stop glorifying yourself, your entire analysis is false... it has nothing to do with his keypress but the fact that the first animation had to finish before the next ability could be used...
How on earth can you be so dense and fervently defensive, attempting yourself to be a hero of revelation. You haven't even taken the issue seriously enough to read through the evidence or watch the videos listed in the OP you're responding to...
I am done with you... this is ridiculous,
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I am asking for specific evidence of a non-cosmetic, MECHANICAL delay effect that is causing abilities to actually fail to go off at all, not just "appear" to go off later than you think they should.
The former is a game-breaking problem. The latter is a problem if it personally bothers you for aesthetic reasons, but is not 'game breaking'.
You're intellectually offensive if you have not seen mechanical evidenced that is all over the OP videos as well as threadline.
You have absolutely NO credibility due to the above quoted statement.
To creationists like you I can only say: There is no "missing link", you're not understanding the principle.
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I glanced at it but didn't watch it closely enough to do a detailed analysis of it, which is what I'm going to do later.
And I AM on the opposite side. From the standpoint of someone who knows how the systems and the networks work, I am telling you flat out that the animations are appearance only and have no effect on and are only a limited representation of the true game state as held by the server, and that only the game state as held by the server matters as far as what actually happens.
Are you ******* kidding me? I am actually offended that you believe "ANYONE" here is simple enough to not realize this already. You have "no" clue about the discussions that have already taken place and to even regurgitate that paragraph in a post is offensive to all who are "seriously" interested in this subject and have followed it.
In fact, the GCD and cooldowns are the *most accurate* representation of what actually happens that we currently have, because they are designed first and foremost to be functional, and to 'look good' second: the animations HAVE no function, ALL they do is 'look good'.
Right, again reading comprehension is failing hard. That is what it SHOULD BE, GCD/UI/CDs etc. SHOULD be the "most accurate" representation of whats actually happening. OBVIOUSLY that isn't the case if you would've AT ALL done your research on this threadline OR EVEN videos in the OP. Once again, this paragraph is "highly" offensive
And yes, with a Combat log it would be really easy to see that there's not a mechanical problem, as it stands it takes a lot closer watching of what's going on to see it.
Correct.
The trick is, as I said, to chain off abilities based on the GCD and cooldowns only, and see if all the abilities are used successfully and do damage. I have yet to see a case where an ability failed to fire because of an animation issue, in personal play or in a video.
And as I said AS WELL AS THIS TREAD FOR THE PAST 4 INCARNATIONS, you cannot reliably use the GCD/CD Timing or any other element of the UI. Tight rotations as well as "timing" are an "impossibility" in this game.
The animation being delayed isn't itself a problem: it's only a problem if it effects the mechanics, the state of the game on the server. All we've got to go on are our client's representations of what the server says that state is, some of which are deliberately modified, even on world of warcraft, in order to look better.
Yes it is a problem, no its not a mechanical problem. Yes ideally if I had to "choose" if I want the GCD/UI to be perfectly aligned to the actual server events etc or animations. I would of course prefer the GCD/UI. However! Animations being in proper sync as well as Sound with the GCD/UI is absolutely necessary for responsiveness/feedback and general polish.
Again, its not a mechanical problem to have animations "off-sync" but it is an overall problem.
Look past the cosmetic and see the mechanics.
I beg of you, stop posting in this thread, it is getting offensively silly. You're deluded by your own "Networking Specialty".
Green
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No offense, but what someone says they are on the internet is...fairly meaningless. I could tell you that I have an IQ of 131 and am a trained and experienced computer tech, and you've got no way of verifying that or any reason to believe me.
What I'm doing, basically, is science. I'm experimenting with it trying to find the mechanical, game-breaking delay that people are complaining about. I found one, tiny, miniscule little malfunction in the ability action queue.
What I'm seeing being complained about appears to be no more than a cosmetic issue. I have yet to see any evidence of a general issue impairing the use of abilities in a mechanical fashion. There might be a few specific abilities broken this way, but all I'm seeing right now is a delay before the client plays the animation and reports the damage, neither of which has any mechanical effect or value.
Speaking as someone scientifically versed, you're NOT doing science. You're doing something more along the lines of creationism.
If you'd like to be a Scientist -- Review the source material first...
Thread 1, Page 1.
Move on...
Get through Thread 4, now with all gathered arguments as well as evidence. Go ahead and make an OBSERVATION... "potentially" construct a Theory to be scrutinized by your peers and deconstructed. If such deconstruction is not fruitful, your Theory will stand and you shall be proclaimed the Charles Darwin of this Threadline.
As someone who has followed it over the past 4 threads I can tell "exactly" at what level of understanding you are in regards to this issue... because "you" already made this argument in Thread 2 and 3...
Oh "you" didn't? Sure you did... under a different name! Because believe it or not, you're not actually a Special Snowflake (at least your Client/Server Communication/Latency argument isn't).
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Because you're talking about an ANIMATION delay issue, not an ABILITY delay issue. I don't even watch the animations when I'm playing generally, as I'm too focused on my cooldowns to bother. I suspect this is why I've never encountered this 'issue'.
Instead of firing one ability, try this. Hit the ability once. Watch the flash, watch the GCD finish. Immediately after it finishes, fire another ability. If you're correct with your times, you should be hitting the second ability about half a second before the animation fires. Fire a third ability when the GCD ends.
See if all three abilities go off and do damage. If they do, there's no real 'delay', just a cosmetic effect.
The animations are cosmetic, just to look pretty. They don't effect mechanics OR gameplay, and what people are complaining about is a MECHANICAL ability delay. What I've seen in here so far wouldn't cause you to have any problems using abilities or reduce your effectiveness in any way.
its as if you're on the opposite end... most nay sayers claim to watch the animation. You should be on our side here buddy. Its the fact that the UI (GCD) has NOTHING to do with whats actually happening.
When you get home, watch the video I linked (which you should've already watched if you're posting at the tail-end here because its in the OP).
1) Hit Ability "Blaster Bolts"
2) Cast bar 2 Seconds
3) Cast bar completes fully
3) Animation of Blaster Bolts begins
4) GCD Finishes
5) HIT GRENADE ABILITY ON ANOTHER TARGET (Instant Ability)
6) NOTHING HAPPENS -- NOTHING HAPPENS --
7) Animation of "Blaster Bolts" finishes
8) Ability "Grenade" happens
9) Animation of Grenade begins
10) Creature takes full damage before Grenade arrives (Unlike WoW)
11) Animation Finishes
12) Grenade arrives
13) SCT Damage displays on creature
14) You Quit SW:TOR --
15) Unsubscribe
16) Throw keyboard through Aquarium
17) New fish flopping everywhere, dying... you just spent another $500 to fix the Aquarium and buy new fish, now they're all dead... again...
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I'll analyze that when I get back from class.
And I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. I've done tests of my own to verify the issue or lack thereof.
I've also been dealing with network latency explanations for years: I caused a change to be made to the JTL UI late in the beta by explaining that a commonly reported bug was really a network latency issue. I once got complimented by a blue on the WoW forums for explaining the network latency problems and their inability to solved.
There is a lot of misinterpretation and lumping together of multiple problems going on here. I'm just trying to help people understand what's actually happening.
It isn't network latency... client/server communication IS ONLY ONE SMALL (BIG?) PART OF THE BROAD ISSUE...
Which encompasses such little details as:
1) Animation Design
2) Animation - UI Sync
3) GCD Design and Sync
4) Client/Server Interaction
5) Visual "Simulated Responsiveness Delay ala WoW" <-- not in SW:TOR (What you see is what you get)
6) Animation/Damage Registration Sync
WE HAVE NO ******* COMBAT LOG TO WORK WITH -- Or we could be more constructive.
Once again, PLEASE stop thinking that you have the wisdom to come in at the tail-end of a 4000+ thread and clarify things. Over the course of this threadline there have been professional coders and network specialists as well as professional gamers and even an aspiring game developer. I.e.: Much smarter individuals than myself...
Stop... I am willing to hear your say on network latency but again, I urge you to reconsider the weight of your revelation.
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I'll analyze that when I get back from class.
And I DO have some idea what I'm talking about. I've done tests of my own to verify the issue or lack thereof.
I've also been dealing with network latency explanations for years: I caused a change to be made to the JTL UI late in the beta by explaining that a commonly reported bug was really a network latency issue. I once got complimented by a blue on the WoW forums for explaining the network latency problems and their inability to solved.
There is a lot of misinterpretation and lumping together of multiple problems going on here. I'm just trying to help people understand what's actually happening.
Since I already know you'll mention the damage landing before the grenade etc... thats not the crux of the problem. Those are details (like your previous rebuttal to another poster)
The issue is the grenade, ability is simply not being fired until the bolts animation is finished. The Cast-Bar completes (good) --> next ability does not happen (even though GCD is done too)... Why? because i'm still busy shooting (animating) the ability that was completed .5 seconds ago.
Its a very simple to understand issue, so simple its a feeling to most people perceiving it. Don't claim its just "that ability" (Bug), everything else is fine. However, it is a whole slew of mechanical problems and design decisions that have lead to this problem. It is more than just the video I linked, that is merely one issue.... but easier to understand.
Once again, your understanding of this very broad and big subject is not complete. Please re-examine and re-evaluate your position. It should not be offensive to acknowledge that ones understanding of a subject is not complete.
If it helps, consider Ability Delay as "Quantum Physics"... no-one is ashamed to admit they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to this field. Please don't post that 0.0 fixes it or that everything is fine etc etc.
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I urge you to do some personal testing, and stop making mistaken evaluations based on the misevaluated claims of others.
That last video you added to the OP shows only a delay in animations, not a delay in abilities. The animations are cosmetic and have no mechanical effect.
If he was attempting to fire abilities and failing because the anim was playing it'd be one thing, but if you watch he doesn't even try to hit the buttons until after the anim has finished. (the keypress registers even if it fails for any reason, including GCD).
He's simply watching the wrong thing: you watch the cooldowns, not the animations.
You know, I've only been talking to you for the past 4000+ posts and 4 (capped) threads... Stop coming into the tread at the tail-end claiming to know what you're talking about and that you have the wisdom of suddenly falsifying the past four threads.
You are not that guy, one to two of you per thread is annoying as hell.
Here:
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Thanks. Unfortunately I can't provide you with any proof as the season I played very seriously was 5 years ago (started in 2007), then I quit. Got back to WoW couple days ago after I was tired of the delay in ToR. I used to be on arenajunkies.com, but can't find it anymore.
The only proof is pretty much my gear that is left in my bank, as even the achievements for highest rating only count your rating (or somewhere around) since they implemented the system/this achievement.
Just gonna add I also play Quake Live (if you're familiar with it, almost the same as quake 3, just bit worse netcode) in the top tier. Made couple of movies, played mostly Polish tournaments due to ping (month ago used to play in one of 3 best Polish clans, where Polish scene is 2nd best in the world). Kripp is my profle if you want to check it out.
The delay/lag on Quake Live (like any fps) is incredibly crucial, above 50 and you will not be able to fully spread your wings.
Anyway, hope this gets fixed soon.
That would work, link please if possible.
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I set my threshold to zero and it seems to have fixed many of my issues.
It may be possible that it "masks" the initial ability delay but it does not at all solve the discussed issue. This claim has been extinguished since Thread 1 (within the first 20-50 pages).
Please remember that this is a broad scope problem with the combat design and mechanics. Animation/Ability execution is just as much part of it (or more) than initial ability firing (through queue etc.).
Again, I do believe it may be possible that 0.0 or 1.0 or any other tweaks mask the overall issue slightly (for the individual) but remember that this does not at all resolve anything.
- Please check out the video examples in the OP and skim through some of the thread(s).
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Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
That isn't a Smuggler... man, what is wrong with you? Also, ok "assuming" I was referring to this IA Video. No, its not just an "interesting bug" but its a result of the overall shoddy coding. Also, there is still about .2-.5 delay before the castbar/animation bugs out, this video showcases: Responsiveness Delay (.2-.5) and Bugs AS WELL as, the terrible UI itself...
It showcases GCD issues, Animation Issues, Responsiveness Issues and lack of UI Response. All in one nice video...
Anyways, no, not talking about the IA Video... I said Smuggler. :|