Xcore
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If x isn't implemented, then this game will be dead within a year.
Pretty tired of hearing that, might want to come up with something new.
These forums sure do feel a lot like what the World of Warcraft forums did when that game launched. Or well, every other MMo's forum through the ages.
I sure as hell don't need addons nor macros to play my game for me.
I can do just fine without, so I sincerely hope they never allow them in this game.
Seems to me like you guys are looking for a mod to play the game for you, I sure don't.
Why have you not even bothered to read the OP?... ?
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Ahh, see now there we go.
You've at least partially got my point now, it seems.
Yes, the animations are delayed, which also delays the appearance of when the ability goes off. That's the key point though: the appearance of when it goes off.
What I've been trying to say all this time is that the appearance of when it goes off, and when it actually goes off, are NOT synchronized. I mean quite clearly they're not, you'd have to be blind not to see that.
My point, however, is that because the server controls everything, and that what happens on the server is the ONLY thing that matters... the display on your client being a bit out of sync doesn't actually affect the use of the abilities, or your ability to fight to your full potential. The server already knows you hit him with the grenade for xx damage before your client even starts the animation: practically speaking, he'd in reality already taken the damage before your client caught up and showed it.
This is true because the quickslots and your resource bar *are* synced. I think the buffs/debuffs on your own character are too, but I haven't personally verified it so I can't say for sure. Anyway, the point is, enough of the UI is properly synced to allow you to fight properly, despite the animations and damage indications being delayed.
As for the grenade's damage going off 'prematurely', my speculation is that it was the client trying to keep from getting too out of sync: it recognized that the animation was especially late and displayed the actual effects early in order to keep from being too far off. I've wondered in fact if it didn't actually display the damage at the same time it would've had the animation NOT been delayed by the first ability, which is why I mentioned timing the grenade launcher anim and comparing it to how long it takes after the resource pull before the damage appears.
In short, my point is that the display being off is not in and of itself the gamebreaking issue that some people are claiming. Irritating? Clunky? Suboptimal? Absolutely, I'm in agreement with you there. But gamebreaking? Not at all.
I'm starting to wonder if it might in fact actually be related to the ease with which you can dismount yourself, and the delay at the end of a healing cast. There's more than a few hints that the client-server sync is screwed up above and beyond just simple network latency somehow, and if my other speculation that the client is waiting for the response from the server before it starts animating is correct, the same root problem would be adding the excess delay to the animations as well.
I got your point all this time... I just don't like singling out "one little aspect" of the overall issue of "Clunky Feeling"... which is labelled Character/Avatar Responsiveness.
My entire point to you is in GREEN: EVERYONE HERE UNDERSTANDS THIS. That is why we're p***ed at you. Stop talking about it, its a small, fraction of the overall issue.
What I want you to understand now is that there is a factual coding issue in both the Engine Code as well as Feature Code. This leads to the ability delay problems as well as the Client/Server Sync/Latency.
ON TOP OF THAT:
You have the combat design decision that Bioware took (Code) to prioritize Animation > Gamerplay Response. Thus the Smuggler Video.
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Addons – Combat Logs – Macros (Why SW:TOR needs it)
Hello,
Before we get started, I would like you to consider these pieces I have written/contributed:
My Early Review of SW:TOR – http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222
Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness – http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=133110
*Please, rate the thread to support the honest discussion of this very important topic*
Why am I writing this? Am I just another troll? Am I just another WoW Fanboi?:
I write this following analysis once more, as the above two pieces for no other reason than truly wanting SW:TOR to succeed, meet and exceed all expectations and potential. Please understand that whether you agree with my sentiment or not, I don’t mean to offend or troll. I truly believe that SW:TOR has the potential to be the next “Market Leader” and Standard in the MMO Genre.
A little Background on myself: *I realize you may think this arrogant, though I simply want you to know me a little better before getting into the subject at hand. Feel free to skip if you are offended by this part*
I would like to say that my MMO Gaming background started with SWG. This was my first MMORPG and I will likely never forget the feeling of “awe” when I took my first steps outside of Coronet, not understanding the technicalities of the genre. I would simply set up camp (I was a Scout) outside (not too far away from the City!) in the wilderness and enjoy being in the world itself. I had no care to kill anything to progress; I had no idea what “Gearing” even meant. It was amazing watching the sunset from my small camp. Sometimes, a traveller would sit down and join me waiting for the next sunrise.
I have gone on to become more competitive, understand the system and essentially molded into a “Hardcore” Player. Having endured the “CU” (Combat Upgrade), I succumbed to the “NGE” (New Game Enhancements) and was forced to quit.
My other notable MMO experience would come from the current “Market Leader” itself, World of Warcaft. In “Vanilla” WoW, I got up to Marshal PvP Rank (Before Rank Nerfs). During “TBC” (The Burning Crusade) I was fortunate enough to Raid Top100 World with the guilds <Templar Knights> and <Damage Networks> through T5 and T6 respectively. With WotLK I was able to get back into Top100 Raiding (though only U.S.) with <Tasty Beverage> through T8. Having grown increasingly frustrated with Blizzard and their direction with WoW, I decided to step down during Cataclysm and altogether quit once SW:TOR released.
Tiny Personal Note* I am happy to say that all of my gaming time is shared with my amazing fiancée. Sharing a hobby such as gaming with someone you love is the most amazing joy. Whether it be Arena PvP, Dou-Questing, Instancing etc. So a big THANK YOU! to her! For putting up with my elitism all this time!
Note: Of course I have tried every AAA MMO on the market as well…
Addons – Combat Logs – Macros (Why SW:TOR needs it)
Addons:
It is evident that the community is “incredibly” divided over these issues, perhaps most of all “Addons”. From one perspective, Addons are held to be a necessity to a prosperous gaming environment. From the other perspective, Addons are the very evil that has infested the Genre, molding it into an Elitist crackpot and removing all the fun essentially.
I would like to firstly make my statement, give you (The Reader) my reason for the necessity of Addons in SW:TOR. One can argue that Addons such as “Gearscore” or “Recount (Damage Meters)” are abominations of World of Warcraft, giving rise to nothing but blatant elitism and ruined the entire community. I would like to first have you consider the incredible weight of positive values of Addons as a whole.
MMOs are in constant evolution, every single patch the MMO can evolve into exciting, new and different ways. This is what keeps it fresh, this is the reason you play WoW (or another MMO) for 5-6 Years and not 2-5 Months. Of course the content patches are one reason but the real reason WoW never seems to get “stale” is that it is always evolving. Without the community (Addon Creators) WoW (and even the entire MMO Genre) would not be where it is at this point, you may argue the exact origin of these features, nonetheless it is Addons and the Modding Community that have elevated them:
UI Customization – Before WoW and UI Addons, the MMO Genre was pretty well stuck with whatever UI the Developer gave you. We have come to a point now where we as Gamers “expect” better. This is because we’re used to this incredible flexibility. We can customize our MMO experience! This is a good thing, in all forms of life and business the ability to customize to your own liking/needs is invaluable. Imaging only being able to get Coffee, black, 1 sugar. Why confine us, let us break free, if I’d like my bars to glow purple instead of blue… why forbid me? Perhaps I click only 3 abilities and I love it, why not allow me to hide all my bars and just show 3 abilities in the center!? Etc.
Threat Meters – The simple inclusion of Threat Meters have changed the entire Dynamics of PvE Raiding/Boss Encounters within the MMO Genre! Because we no longer have to be ultra-careful and sensitive to “guessworking” our threats we can now “maximize” our collective damage output throughout the encounter. This leads to “MUCH” tighter tuned Boss Encounters and much more fun challenges.
As Gamers we now expect amazing, challenging, fun and tightly tuned Boss Encounters in our Raid Environments. However, we must appreciate the REASON we expect this and the fact that it would not be possible unless one eliminates the more boring guesswork of “Threat Management”. Having something as simple as Threat Meters has a great and positive effect on the design potential on PvE Encounters. Please realize that Blizzard has incorporated Threat Meters into the Game’s actual UI! Much like Target of Target and Focus Target (Those used to be Addons!).
Note: I am not arguing that Threat should be made irrelevant – Threat Meters are merely a tool to maximize personal and collective efficiency. Thus opening opportunities for the designers to challenge you more and more!
DBM (Deadly Boss Mods) and other Raid Announcers/Warnings – This is what I am personally most torn about. On the one hand, one has to realize that “Encounter Announcement Mods” have the same effect as the above with Threat Meters. However, at the same time a solid argument can be made against it, that it reduces the average awareness and skill of players. Of course no-one would be so obnoxious as to argue that “The Addon plays for you”, but it does help out quite a lot.
I must point out, that this one aspect I am very much open for discussion. Having raided at the top end of the PvE Progression Spectrum, I appreciate the value of raiding without such Addons. However, this is an “evil” that I believe is worth taking for the greater (much greater) benefit of having Addons period.
I feel the need to point out WoW’s debacle during Icecrown Citadel Progression in WotLK with the “AVR” Addon. This one allowed the Raid Leader to basically draw and mark outlines/arrows etc. and anyone within the Raid who also had the Addon would see this on their screen. To be honest, ingenious little tool. However, completely negating the entire process of playing your character to the environment and surroundings. Blizzard put a stop to this Addon rather swiftly, it is no longer usable in any way.
Perhaps if Bioware can monitor the Addons related to PvE Encounter Announcements as vigilantly as Blizzard, we can move forward. I feel the need to point out that Bioware should not be “Draconian” about the monitoring, this would negate the entire Modding Community and undermine the efforts of evolving/customizing the game itself.
Recount (Damage Meters) – Once more, a very “touchy” subject for most opposing the notion of Addons. While at the same time a very supported tool for those in favor. Lets attempt to unravel this mystery. What Recount does is simply provide detailed statistics for the course of combat, it shows the personal and group/raid data in respects to Damage/Healing/Damage Taken/Death’s/DoT Uptime etc. It is actually quite intricate and accurate.
I completely understand the counter arguments, does this breed elitism? People use it to “point fingers” at those not performing to a certain standard? Does this divide/degrade the community? All of these arguments are valid and worth discussing honestly. However, I must point out the overwhelming positives.
It is very hard to initially, on the surface, see the benefits. So what if you can see my damage and healing? What does that actually do besides give excuses for Elitism?
Please, attempt to understand the incredible importance that “Data Analysis” has within “tightly tuned” PvE Environments. The ability to absolutely deconstruct events and analyze every single tick of damage, every single heal and all the details of the combat events that took place is absolutely “invaluable”. This allows for a higher level of awareness, understanding and overall performance from the Raid/Group. This raising in performance means that the PvE Designers can now tune tighter, more challenging content, faster enrage timers, more complex mechanics etc.
I can go into elaborate detail for more complex potential mechanics that one cannot design without the assumption that the Raid has the ability to see events in detail through a Combat Log/Addon. Without the assumption that the people doing the content have the ability to analyze properly, one cannot create seriously complex PvE Puzzles (Puzzles -> Progression of Mechanics).
Trial and Error is not possible for some of these things. It is possible to create mechanics so complex that trial and error would take “incredible” long amounts of time. At which point it eliminates the fun of cracking the puzzle. If you disagree, I do believe you will agree after your 600th wipe on X Boss.
Data Analysis of Combat Events is crucial for the evolution of PvE Content, we don’t want to see Onyxia Style Raiding again. More Mu’ru/Kil’jaedan/Lich King/Ragnaros complexity!
I urge you to see these videos: (This Design Complexity is not achievable without the assumption that "some" of these mods are being used)...
Kil'Jaedan World First - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3LC1rCp9hE
Lich King World First (Part 1) -
Lich King World First (Part 2) -
Lich King World First (Part 3) -
Ragnaros World First -
In Conclusion on PvE and Addons:
These are not simply to make things easier or play the game for you. These tools, this entire toolset of Threatmeters/Combat-Data Analysis/Boss Encounter Announcers are THE reason WoW has the tightly tuned, amazing PvE Endgame that it does. It has evolved this way, we came from Onyxia (No Addons “nearly”) to Lich King/Deathwing (Addons). What a positive evolution! I argue, without Addons we’d be stuck with static, Tank/Spank fights and simple movements.
If I can do anything at all with this thread and OP, I wish that everyone realize the “behind-the-scenes” effects that Addons have. It is not as Black/White as “Plays game for you”, “Breeds Elitism”. They create a better game, not better because you get removed from a group due to some Elitist but because the Encounters have a higher potential for tight tuning and thus greater challenge, more “FUN”.
Note: I am talking about the echelon of PvE – Operations, not regular FPs (though also applies to a lesser degree).
PvP Addons – I will just make it one argument and not break down individual Addons for PvP as there appears to be less debate here, less conflicting interests. Things such as “Target of Target”, “Focus Target” were originally Addons and due to their incredible popularity and “Quality of Life” enhancements, “Game Experience” enhancements, they were incorporated into the standard UIs.
It is not taking away the “skill” from the PvP, it in fact fine-tunes this aspect. A player who can utilize Focus Target swapping has mastered a whole other level of potential than one who is unable. It is the same relation as “Clicking” vs. “Keybinding” for PvP. Sure there are some silly PvP Addons as well but nonetheless, the potential for higher skillcaps and evolving this aspect of the game surely is an overwhelming positive.
Last word on the topic of Addons:
Without Addon Support we will miss out on so many possibly amazing revelations, sure there will be roadblocks and “Bad Addons” such as AVR etc. However, the positives, the potential of evolution is so much greater and so much more valuable that for SW:TOR not to have Addon Support, I believe would be a grave disservice.
I would urge you to not get hung-up on “Gearscore” or an elitist misusing a tool such as “Recount”. Instead attempt to use these tools yourself! (You don’t have to!) They are merely tools, if you don’t necessarily understand them or feel overwhelmed, its ok to learn (Its actually made “very” userfriendly). Its also just as ok to simply not use them. For the longest time I used no addons in WoW during Cataclysm. I simply didn’t feel the need for it, no-one has ever pointed this out as a negative as my play style generally was good. Very lastly I want to say, please, do not stop yourself from understanding the greater aspects and effects Addons have for the evolution of an MMO. They are vitally important for sustained growth.
Allowing addons is akin to expanding your creative development team by a few hundred thousands or more… it is worth it, the gems hidden in the mud are invaluable.
Combat Log:
The topic of Combat Logs does tie into Addons but not entirely. Even if you are opposed to Addons as a whole, I believe that just about anyone should support the inclusion of a Combat Log. It is incredibly valuable data, it is also a valuable tool to find discrepancies, balancing problems, bugs etc.
Not having a working Combat Log effectively blinds the playerbase to the “behind-the-scenes” events! This I don’t believe is right at all. It is fine to argue and discuss Addons but to be against the inclusion of a working Combat Log is beyond me.
As I stated previously, it effectively blinds the playerbase to combat events, this should ring an alarm immediately in your mind. It is fine if someone does not “use” the combat log, I have no problem with that but to actually forbid it entirely is a very strange decision.
Lastly, on this simple subject. I realize Bioware wishes to disconnect the Player from the “Mechanics” of the game, those “behind-the-scenes” things. However, I believe this to be very naïve and ultimately damaging to the growth potential of SW:TOR. Fact is, gamers are hungry to improve, to analyze, to compete… to be better, to maximize. Denying the tools is not a good business model, in my humble opinion.
Macros:
Macros are a very misunderstood subject, I must firstly state that I personally do not use Macros heavily. I have had “some” but nothing to write home about. I also realize that certain people who are well versed in the arts of “Macro” (not SC2 Macro!) are capable of creating a potential advantage over non-Macro users.
I can really not comment heavily (apologies) as I don’t have the background knowledge and experience to do so comfortably. However, I would like to share my naïve opinion:
I think a great “Pro” for the inclusion of Macros is, creativity. My fiancée once created a Macro that let her “Summon Mount” button summon any of her Ground Mounts (Or Flying with “Shift” Key) completely at random! Which made her so happy for some reason. Such a simple, harmless little thing elevated her entire gaming experience! I think that is very important to consider. These little things, are what separate Good from Excellent in this genre. Lets not discount it.
Of course I can also imagine the “Cons” as I stated earlier. It is possible a Macro can be created to essentially do your entire combat rotation via 1 button press! This to me, is un-acceptable.
In conclusion to Macros, my stance is: Only if its controlled enough to not affect real world performance.
I realize that this entire OP is very lengthy, I apologizes for the lack of a tl;dr. I believe that discussion (proper) is very important on this topic as I passionately want SW:TOR to succeed and at the same time
believe that Addon Support and the Modding Community are a Key to this, the Combat Log is a no-brainer to me, Macros are an iffy and not completely Black/White subject either. I hope that you enjoyed reading my perspective on this topic and at the very least (Agree or Disagree) have been stimulated to discussion.
I would like to state that I will continue to Update the OP in similar fashion as I have the Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness Thread so as to evolve our understanding of this very important subject as well.
Thank you for reading!
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I have said, repeatedly, that it is a complex, multifaceted issue. I have reiterated that the Bioware post pretty much flat out said that lumping these various issues together made it harder to find and fix them.
All I've been trying to say the entire time, is that most of the issues lumped in here have nothing to do with 'delay' or 'responsiveness', which is what the topic is ostensibly about.
I'm also trying to point out that several of the vids YOU linked exhibit no non-cosmetic responsiveness issues at ALL.
Because no matter what you say about "nobody is disputing the fact that the server registers certain events for which the animations delay?", the way you frame your responses and try to demonstrate your points indicate that you're relying on the client relaying the effects of things happening to determine when things 'worked', which indicates that you do not in fact understand at all.
Seriously. Try it. Try to find a way to deliberately screw up the way the client displays what you're trying to do. Interrupt it. Disconnect before it relays a response and have someone else monitor what happens. Find a no-cooldown instant with an animation longer than the GCD and just spam the crap out of it. Find some way to separate what actually happens from what appears to happen.
It'd eliminate a huge variable and make it quite clear what I'm trying to say: the client, for the sake of appearances, deliberately holds back from displaying information it already has, and that has in fact already been applied, until it would 'look right' for what happens.
There's already a number of videos demonstrating that if you push it off far enough that it can't do that and keep up, it stops doing it. Your smuggler video for example, where the grenade damage and debuff are applied almost immediately at the start of the animation, presumably because of the long animation in front of it. (I'd be very interested to time how long the grenades takes to travel to the target when the anim does start, and compare it to how long it takes between the resource pull and the damage appearing.) The kolto-injection IA video also demonstrates this: the animations get badly desynched and go to crap, but the ability keeps working (for a bit anyway).
If you do this, deliberately prevent the display from being able to keep up with the abilities, one of two things will happen:
If I'm right, the damage and effects will all end up being applied anyway, in the correct order, at something approximating the correct time (depending on how much the client can compensate and continue cosmetic-ing it. This is why pushing it really hard is important).
If You're right, once the display gets seriously jacked up, the abilities will start seriously malfunctioning as well. Things going in the wrong order, cooldowns not working properly, things getting skipped to no effect... all sorts of crazy effects that seriously mess up combat.
Either way, it'd be obvious.
What you need to understand is that this entire thread's purpose is about defining the core issue of Avatar Disconnect Feeling. The reason we all go back to WoW... please re-read the OP.
The technical aspects are complex but just as much as the issue is attributed to Client/Server Latency, it is also the design decision that Animation Display > UI/Player Input.
The Smuggler Bolts --> Grenade video showcases this perfectly, the cast bar completes. Immediately following this the grenade should be thrown but it isn't because the system requires blaster bolt animation to finish.
It is completely irrelevant that ONCE THE GRENADE ABILITY IS INITIATED the damage registers prematurely. The whole point is that the Grenade ability itself is delayed.
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Some of the issues presented here are in fact major bugs with serious performance impacts: particuarly a few of the ones that prevent certain abilities from being used (the non-GCD issue in particular, because a large portion of defensive abilities are of this type).
If these aren't fixed, it will, in fact, pretty well be a gamebreaker.
Some of the other stuff, like the animations and damage displays being slow, or even to a considerable extent the issues with the ability queue are much more minor, as they have minute effects on the actual gameplay at best.
I agree with the exception that animation and damage display delay is also attributed to the disconnect feeling of Avatar Responsiveness as well as ability delay.
Again, this thread is about the overall feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar. Character Responsiveness. I hope that you by now realize there is a delay in animation as well as ability execution, regardless of the technicality of when the Server receives information.
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Reading more (after posting again) and being less tired I think I see what you're referring to a bit more now and you're right. However I disagree with it ruining the game for most people. I think the game lends itself to caring more about the story than anything else. Now if it becomes a serious issue and PVE bosses can't be killed because of it, then yeah, it'll ruin it for those people too. Fortunately there are no dps meters so if it happens to one person but the boss dies, there's no ridicule
.IMO, I don't think this is a game for people who want a rich pvp experience. I dislike RPG pvp wholeheartedly for a few reasons, some of which are personal, others just the nature of the beast.
1) it's too complex to actually balance
2) it general lends to who plays more, is better (aside from the practice aspect of it) because of gear
3) no collision mesh makes it a retarded spin around in circles circle jerk.
4) 2 people die on my team while all 5 of yours are alive. 9 times out of 10, the game is already over. You simply cannot 1v5 because you have the focus and will power to win like you can in Counter Strike. That sort of drama is lost in RPG pvp, which turns me off from it.
I think since there are no "arenas" and stat tracking, that Bioware isn't really concerned about creating competative pvp at the moment. If they were to make competative pvp a part of the game, I think their best bet is Hutt Ball for many reasons that simply are not on topic.
Really, I think it doesn't ruin it for people who Bioware is catering to. Somehow, I don't think they're trying to cater to EVERYONE straight off the bat like WoW does. Their strength right now is story telling and though I agree, this is an issue that should be fixed, I don't believe it's a game killer quite like you are implying.
Sure I can accept that. However, in an unresponsive environment like this one cannot create tightly tuned encounters. Ultimately, once the story gets old, you're screwed.
Edit: Posted on phone with errors
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I think you can have complex PVE encounters without action FPS style controls, pvp not so much
I disagree, not in a multiplayer. This is based on what I perceive to be fun though so completely subjective. I agree with your general point though and why not PvP turn based? Scorched Earth was awesome...
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@Xcore
Didn't mean to bail on our discussion, I had to go to bed as well. I was simply trying to look on the bright side of things because every post I was reading was overly negative. WoW had plenty of latency issues years after release, need I mention Ulduar, existing in the SECOND expansion. And by latency I mean the servers not properly handling game mechanics such as what you're talking about. I can't even begin to count the number of raid nights cancelled because the server died and the fights were unplayable.
During my experience playing WoW through the years I encountered many such issues that could be similar to problems here. In my view, Blizzard just handled them more gracefully. To me it looks just like the same thing as using an ability in WoW and nothing registering for a couple seconds which most people will attribute to internet lag. But because in SWTOR it locks you into the animation it seems different. My guess is it's just not handled as gracefully and is a similar problem since from what I've read most people encounter this problem when they're in "heavily" populated areas.
@Amplicon
I never said you were. I just said people. If you wrote 3000+ posts on all these accounts then touche to you. I will apologize for the "make an MMO yourself" comment, that was uncalled for when directing it towards you. I meant to direct it towards the negative nancy type that does nothing but ***** and moan. Please, if you read this, forgive me. I didn't mean it that way.
It's ok, I agree on the incredible negativity but everyone has to understand that it is fostered and increased by lack of communication and only natural considering the issue at hand as well as length of thread.
I wholeheartedly disagree, WoW at no point had these issues. It had latency issues and lag, server side. Perhaps you'd be stuck casting frostbolt for about 8 seconds and then everything fast forwards lol. Sure, I remember Ulduar, I played in the top 100 U.S. at the time and I know the server lag you're referring to. However, it has nothing to do with this problem.
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So content that only the top 5-6% of WoW raiders (itself a minority group among broader WoW players) may or may not be possible in this engine.
I still go back to the fact that if we have to have WoW's two-animations-per-class-used-for-every-attack system to get "tight" gameplay like WoW at the very top level, I'll pass. If I see my Goblin do his spinny jump attack one more time, regardless of what ability I just used, I might scream.
I can see how players at the very tip top of PvE and PvP couldn't care less about the animations and want full fighting game style animation interruption and 1:1 input to action mechanics...but a huge percentage of us couldn't care less about that kind of stuff. Make the content interesting and the game fun to play, and most of us will be willing to deal with animation syncing (City of Heroes did just fine as a PvE game with hard animation syncing, where attacks were locked to animations).
I don't mind them looking at character responsiveness (it has it's issues), but if the "fix" is to make animation sequences WoW-style homogeneous, no thanks.
You miss the whole grand scheme of things. In this current system you simply cannot have rewarding, challenging, complex PvE encounters or complex PvP interaction.... why Is it difficult to understand that these are fundamentals. Gameplay/Avatar Response > All in an Action Combat Game.
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I know what this thread really needs... it needsredone only someone else stuns the guy at about the point where I took the screenshot for http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6273/debunkify.jpg . After both abilities have been activated and had their resources pulled, but before the second anim starts.
In theory what should happen is that the animations get interrupted and replaced with the one for whatever CC he got hit with, preventing him from even getting to the grenade throw anim at all.
What would happen then? You already used both abilities: that's already been accepted by the server as evidenced by the cooldowns not resetting themselves and the resources being pulled. So that second Rakghoul? Still going to take the damage and get crowd controlled just the same. Probably won't go flying through the air, may just suddenly 'warp' backwards to where it would've landed.
It'd take some practice to pull off with the right timing, but it would be EXTREMELY informative if managed.
The funny part is, based on my playing so far, and the client-server sync problems being what they are, the smuggler might in fact go into the 'cc'd' anim for a second, then throw the grenade anyway, then go back to cc'd. I don't know how many times I've seen that exact thing happen with enemies I cryoban'd.
It would, however, illustrate one of my main points: the fact that you haven't started the animation doesn't mean the ability hasn't been used or the damage applied. Ofc, since it WOULD illustrate my main point, I'll bet nobody actually dares try to do it.
I'd do it myself, except I don't have the software or the hard drive space. God I need a new hard drive...
Will please stop posting about Client/Server interaction? It is certainly a part of the picture but you miss 80% of the rest constably. I don't understand why you do this. It's rage inducing reading your replies because theyre long, well structured and almost completely besides the point.
It's as if you're writing awesome creationist "science books". Your posts confuse newcomers because you ignore so much, constantly droning on about client/server latency.
Do you realize that nobody is disputing the fact that the server registers certain events for which the animations delay? Why do you keep insisting on this small part of this great topic as if it were a revelation? There are many issues, here is one that has "nothing" to do with latency:
1) Trinkets CC (instant no GCD trigger)
2) Cover (instant no GCD trigger)
3) Knockback (instant GCD trigger)
The above should take no more than 1.5 sec max with keybinds. Yet its impossible to accomplish under 3-4 seconds. Listen, I like you, youre intelligent. I just want you to finally realize that this is a very complex set of issues that a part Client/Server Communication, part UI sync, part engine code, part feature code, part conscious combat design decisions and perhaps other minor parts.
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Xcore,
From your research do you think the character response and ability delay is something that can be fixed within the game or do you believe it could be a permanent problem?
For what its worth, i belive this issue to remain indefinitely. Very likely it will be addressed and tweaked, masked but it will never play as smooth as WoW. I don't belive this game will ever have a rich and complex PvE Scene. I dont see how tight tuning is possible under these conditions, no Kil'jaedan, Yogg Saron, Lich King, Ragnaros level hardmodes are possible.
To a large degree because I believe this to be part engine coding, part feature coding, part casual nature of devs and part inexperience of Bioware and naivity of EA.
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WOW your once, twice, third times a charm videos, unbelievable
I am unable to heal due to this ability delay ...I feel like a noob when trying. Have had no desire what so ever to play the game /sad.
I have been working in customer sales for the past 15 years. I have many clients. I have always done my best to communicate with them. I believe this is why I am succesful in my trade.
The customer service here is terrible. As many have asked ....just give this thread some answers. TALK TO US! wHaTeVer!
I have Unsubed and gone back to my other hobby digital artwork.
I am looking forward to GW2.
Thanks Xcore for all you have done to help this ability delay, game breaking issue.
I will continue following this thread but done with the game.
Take care guys .....hope to see you all in GW2:)
Thanks for following and supporting since thread 1. I have the greatest of faith in ArenaNet, very solid people...
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Perhaps if enough people voice that this should be stickied it will... I think the fact that this is the 5th version of It In just over a week deserves that much...
/please sticky
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On my trooper yesterday I knocked someone towards me with Concussion Round, so there's that.
lol, every time I enter a Warzone I experience this: (Gunslinger)
1) Get stunned by a melee
2) Trinkets the stun (Instant - No GCD Trigger)
3) Cover to be able to use my next ability (Instant - No GCD Trigger)
4) Knockback Ability (Instant - GCD Trigger)
That sequence of abilities has become the single worst gameplay experience I have had since Warhammer. It is the epitome of "clunky", "unresponsive", "frustrating".
Two instant abilities without GCD Triggers followed by another Instant. If Bioware can solve this overall issue of responsiveness and feeling we'll have a great, successful, long lasting game on our hand.
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To be fair, and not to discriminate, if this is your first MMORPG, or you were never a competitive PvEr or PvPer in an MMORPG, this might not be an issue.
A large number of people probably actually believe that you should wait until an animation finishes and that waiting until the GCD ends client side rather than server side.
However, a large number of people also have played WoW at the highest levels, or even other games. Some of us are not just "nerds". Gaming is a hobby and many do want to be the best at their hobby, just like buying aftermarket parts for your car rather than stock. In my clan alone, we have former S1 gladiators and US Top 100 PvE guild members from WoW. Some are tournament level SC2 and SF3:3I players. Many of us come from TFC, TF2, CS, BF3, some of us at league level. We game because we love it, and because we want to be F-ing good at it.
Most of us notice that once in awhile, we get totally screwed by the combat mechanics in TOR. Like many who have posted on here, this issue is readily prevalant in Warzones because that's when it most matters. Jilted combat against mobs is more of a non-issue, as you can just mortar volley everything and they're dead. However in PvP combat, responsiveness issues crop up at the worst times, and are most memorable because it costs you kills, the cap point, or the game.
Trying to replicate this in a scientific manner is harder than said. Trying to reproduce the hyper-awareness of being in the middle of five Sith, popping Rebuke and Saber Ward, dropping the Sith Sorceror down to 25%, and seeing him pop force speed and you follow with Force Leap and you start SLAMMING the Dispatch Key, and all you get is "Out of Range" or "Not Facing Target". All this while the enemy's character models is frozen on your screen in Force Speed directly in front of you, and then three seconds later he is 10 feet behind you. This is extremely frustrating to say the least.
Isolating the issue solely as a network server-client latency issue is ignorance at best. The issue cleary exists and is in the code itself.
For the years I played WoW, and thanks to Thraga for reminding me it was Quartz - It's been awhile since I helmed a WoW character, the combat system worked. It worked in Vanilla, it worked in TBC. There were other launch issues, actually a lot of them, but they got the combat system right. It was smooth and responsive at almost all times. For now, in TOR, it is a toss-up on if my moves fire on time or if I meet the conditions necessary to perform my moves.
As much as people hate WoW, I quit during SWP so I generally have good memories of WoW, they did get some things right. They "appropriated" ideas and concepts from Eve, EQ, and a whole slew of other games, and streamlined them to be more inuitive and fluid. Spit down on it all you want, but simply put, their combat system worked 99% of the time. The same can not be said about TOR.
Overall, personally, I enjoy the game, outside of Warzones, all the innane bugs, Rakata Energy Cubes, and the stupid RNG Champion bags(I am the highest valor in my guild, and guildies 10 ranks lower are in complete Champion, while I only have 2 pieces of Champ, and 3 Centurion)...but that does not absolve Bioware of not pursuing this problem and other bugs as quickly as possible, especially now that a 50's bracket and a "possibly" rated Ops WZ will be implemented. As my guild is heavily PvP focused, we are salivating at ranked Warzones, so we definately want this fixed before then.
Great post, thank you. Your post echoes my thoughts, I'm glad you posted it as I have no patience to create these anymore.
I will add your thoughts to the OP later today...
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Crazy. This is the fifth iteration of this thread. They've had to re-open new ones because the previous 4 all hit their post limits (1,000 posts). That means we're well over 4,000 posts and counting.
I think an outpouring of customer reaction like that indicates that this issue quite possibly needs to be priority #1 for the dev team. This issue has been seriously hamstringing my enjoyment lately. I didn't notice it in the earlier levels of the game, because my ability selection was limited and, quite frankly, I didn't understand my class yet. But now that I've got a full arsenal of abilities and an understanding of my class that has allowed me to start stringing together abilities and utilizing the synergy of those abilities, this issue has reared its head and become absolutely back-breaking.
It's like a gigantic roadblock in the middle of your ability sequence. For a class like the Sith Marauder, it's absolutely crucial that we be able to string together our abilities with pin-point accuracy. I can't count the numbers of times I've hit an available ability, or an ability that's off the GCD, only for the ability not to trigger. Sometimes I'll hit 6 abilities in sequence, and half of them won't work. So I'll end up 5 or so seconds into the fight without any bleeds or defensive abilities active. That puts me way behind the eight-ball in a tough encounter, and leaves me scrambling to compensate.
If you look at the threads, the first has about 1,700+ posts... etc. We're well over 5,000+, 500+ pages, 200,000+ views etc. I think Bioware needs to adress the issue more directly. Everything has been incredibly vague. The lack of insider communications also leads to a lot of confusion, guess work etc.
We dont even have a timestamping combat log to help us...
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The last thing I'd like to talk about is directed at the Community Manager or the PR Department for Bioware/EA. I will be clear and quick. WE ARE NOT ALL CHILDREN AND VERY FEW OF US ARE LAWYERS. BE CLEAR AND LUCID AND YOU WILL GAIN MORE RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING FROM THE COMMUNITY THAN YOU CAN KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH.
I always respect a straight shooter. My real life job is a walking bullcrap detector, and you might as well rename the Dev Tracker to Bullcrap Tracker because other than a few informational posts on patches and server issues, that is all it is. I'll give an example:
The ability delay issue response can be summed up as: "This is a complicated issue that we are talking about so we aren't going to say anything about it yet." Instead of this CRAP, let us IN on our product! Be frank, say that you've experienced it in game, admit that it was a concern, talk about what the lead combat designer believes the fix might take, tell us what the heads are thinking, talk about the engine a little bit and give us some insight on how the engine prioritizes skill triggers, animations, and cooldowns. BE OPEN. You don't have to set dates, and you are only GAINING respect from an INTELLIGENT community. By not being lucid you are pissing people like me off. I like to know what is going on when I care about something and I really want this game to succeed. Even if there is no news on a fix for these issues I'd resub if there was even just a change in communication between Bioware/EA and its customers.
Quoting this for absolute emphasis... the entire post was accurate but this part needs highlighting.
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To Devs, this also effects the way classes play.
As a person that has played a high level operative and high level scoundrel I can tell you the operative has a huge advantage in terms of how they play.
Dirty Kick for example is just clunky as hell compared to the Operative's ability. Try using Dirty kick on the move and tell me it isn't clunky and not instant compared to the Operatives.
Well, its much harder to kick while moving... realism...
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So Xcore, this is the link we were talking about yesterday:
Great thanks, ill check it out later today when i get home and add your previous post to the OP.
Thread 5, rating as well... At this point we have well over 200 votes with an avg. of 5 Stars. Don't forgetting upvote this one to help keep momentum on this subject.
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Good luck with this guy, I'm going to bed
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Comparing the game to WoW is completely relevant considering ALL THREE of your quotes are comparing it to WoW. Calling it Irrelevant is only going to make a developer/mod/admin/whoever reading your posts think you're an idiot and overly critical ******e who doesn't understand the code that goes into a massive project like this.
I don't disagree with you in the fact that what you're talking about is definitely an issue. I think you're quite correct. But to be unforgiving and not give credit where it's due is only going to hurt your push. Yes, push, but you have no right to say "you can't compare it to WoW when talking about what they did RIGHT" but then cite three people who do nothing BUT compare it to WoW. There's a massive flaw in that logic, which WILL cause the people who MATTER to not listen and disregard your efforts. Again, I don't disagree that it needs to be fixed.
Of course compare to WoW... but all those comparisons are irrelevant...
Who cares if WoW crashed when it launched? is this thread about Launces? or about Responsiveness? WoW's responsiveness on Launch was the same as it is now (to a large degree).
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Explain what's false. ( I can get behind you if you respond in a smart, intelligent way that doesn't include personal attacks.) Otherwise, as another person says, it undermines your arguments.
Sorry friend, about 500+ Pages, 4,000+ Replies (200,000+ Views), worth of material and intelligent discussion with accurate information and established facts are far enough for me to continue to regurgitate the same stuff over and over to new people.
At this point, I'll just point you to Thread 1, Page 1 -- Start here and work your way through the other 4 Threads on this subject.
We've had Professional Gamers, Aspiring Developers, Network Specialists, Professional Coders chime in. Its worth a look.
Apologies again, I am simply too bored by these same false arguments that have arisen 4-5 times over the past 4 threads on this subject and subsequently shot down. If you're serious about this issue, go research a bit and chime in.
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Yea sorry, I was just chiming in to rate. I actually appreciate the thread quite a lot, its false in almost every way BUT it does give a place to direct the trolls from the actual thread on this subject.
What is discussed in this thread is one, only one part of the actual issue. Latency/Lag/Client-Server Communication is only one piece of the puzzle.
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Let's not forget the game isn't even a month old.
Anyone who played WoW when it first came out and is actually honest with themselves can tell you how that game was in virtual shambles. Warlocks were hardly playable and Blizzard was constantly refunding days of game time due to downtime just to list a couple of things. Before anyone becomes overly critical, first try to comprehend the complexity of what is going on underneath it all, then try to realize that nothing is perfect.
They've done many many many more things right than WoW and other MMOs did on release, and you haven't given them sufficient time to fix what is needed if you're already hating on the game.
NO, EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS POST IS WRONG
1) It doesn't matter if this game is out for 1 week or 1 year... we're talking core mechanics
2) WoW had a TERRIBLE Launch -- Irrelevant, it had NONE of these issues... I was there.
3) I love the game in itself, "many, many, many more things right than WoW" <--- Irrelevant
4) Haven't given them enough time to fix? Good, keeping pressure on them is a good thing.
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Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
How am I contradicting myself in any way? You have been trying to de-rail a very long thread to become basically nothing but Client/Server Latency issues... seemingly. Completely ignoring that it is just one of the problems tying into the entire point of the thread, which is to define this issue of Disconnect between Player and Avatar.