I like how the OP keeps comparing Op/Scoundrel to a mythical SorcererAssassin that has 31 points in each talent tree.

Siiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

Yeah, I know. It seems that - mostly thanks to WoW with nonsense like gearscore and other "Bring the gear, not the player" crap - the MMO community has just been taken over by a ton of gear-obsessed crazies that don't even seem to care about playing the actual game. Just amassing pixels for some undetermined purpose.

Because I think there's just a huge gulf between how people like you and I see PvP, competition and challenge in general and the way people like him see it. Guys like him don't seem to care about competition or challenge. They're the sort that will bring a car to a foot race just because they have the car. They're not concered with being a better runner than the other guys, they just want the win and the prize at the end. That's all that matters, being the "winner" and getting their prize/carrot for it. People like us want to show up to the race in as great a condition as we can, because we want to be better than the other racers. The competition is what's important. We'll show up even if there isn't a prize to be gained, and keep going even if we can't win.

So your solution to bringing about positive change to something is to...just keep doing it the same way or quit? I'm not sure how anything would change using your system. In any case, guys like you keep missing the point. Most of us here have the gear. You seem to be under the impression that I'm sitting around in level 48 greens crying my eyes out because I saw someone with a battlemaster weapon. I've got quite a nice mix of Rakata and PvP gear right now that I'm perfectly content with, aside from a couple upgrades and mod swaps. There's really nothing I'm wanting for, I'm actually quite happy with my gear, my class, and most elements of the PvP gameplay right now. I already did #1 on your list and then some. But the system is woefully underdeveloped and has a somewhat significant barrier to entry for new players right now. It's getting a lot better, but there's still more that could be done to shift the PvP aspect of the game from a mindless timesink and gear farm to a real competitive stage.

Actually - speaking for myself - it's more the fact that I don't want a gear grind to be a substitute for a robust PvP system and honest competition. I'd MUCH rather have a level playing field with good ratings systems, a leaderboard of some sorts, elements that provide recognition in some way, titles and other vanity things that are gained through excellent performance, things like that. What I don't want to see is a system that covers up a complete lack of content with a giant skinner box that encourages you to just keep playing and pressing a lever over and over again in the hopes that if you just press the lever ONE more time you'll get an item that makes you better at PvP than the next guy.

Heck, even a lot of hardcore PvE players don't REALLY give a **** about gear. Yeah, at a certain point I had to get my Druid more gear in order to be effective in the next tier, blah blah. But I didn't really care about it. It just came when it came. Same when I was raiding in EQ. Just wasn't a big deal. Most of the best players around me didn't really worry about it either. I'm not sure exactly when the majority of the MMO community turned into gear donkeys, but it's a sad trend if you ask me.

I think you're confused on what "one shot" means.

Sure. In skill. Rakata is already amazingly easy to get. Much easier than Battlemaster gear, in fact. So go for it, farm that stuff up. =D Besides, I've never PvEed for gear. I've always played for the progression and inter-guild competition. Performing better and progressing by improving my skills as a player - both on a personal and a team level - was always my focus there, as it is in PvP. Not just pulling in a bunch of gear and then bragging that I out DPS'ed some fresh level 85. Huh? I already have (almost) all of my gear, and I'm not worried in the least about getting beaten by "gear donkeys" that want PvP to be all about stats. Hell, half the time I'm worried my own class is gonna be the one that eats a nerf, judging by how I'm rolling people most of the time. =D So again, why the extreme focus on gear and artificial advantages? If you want "advancement", why not get it in a competitive format via ratings or leaderboards and whatnot?

A lot of it comes down to proper cooldown usage and the fact that Darkness Assassins have a pretty decent set of self-healing. Most(!) classes have some sort of damage profile which - if you graphed it out - is made up of several peaks and valleys. The peaks would represent usage of cooldown abilities (Long or short) or the result of stacking a buff then consuming it. Or both, in the case of something like 3xHD Force Lightning + Offensive Cooldowns. The point being, proper cooldown usage in countering the abilities of your opponent to produce those peaks while maintaining your own is a big part of some players appearing "invincible". For example, often I'll find myself in a mirror match against another Darkness Assassin. Quite often they'll willy-nilly throw stuns and knockbacks at me early on in the fight, filling my resolve bar. Maybe for lack of knowing a better time they'll just hit Force Shroud at a random time just to do it, or they'll Force Cloak for no apparent reason just to open up on me again. At that point I'm free to pretty much do as I please for most of the match. Meanwhile I'm paying attention to their ability usage and saving my cooldowns specifically to counter what is likely going to be the biggest "peak" in their damage cycle, a 3x HD FL. By doing this - denying them the bulk of their self-heals and most likely the bulk of their damage peaks - I'll often end fights against "bad" Assassins with full, or nearly full HP. Of course, in group combat, it also comes down to the group working well together, having good healers, etc.

I don't know why some people persist in calling Rank 60 an accomplishment. Win or lose in Warzones, fight or AFK in Ilum, no matter what you do you're always bringing in lots of valor. It's just a matter of sitting there and waiting for it to add up.

The better question is, why aren't you pushing for forms of advancement that better fit the spirit of the content? Rankings, leaderboards, vanity items, titles, mounts, forms of recognition, etc. Why does advancement have to mean that because you farmed Ilum longer you get an advantage over other people?

Yep. It's just like how level 50's ranted against the 50-only bracket because they wanted to keep farming level 12's all day. It's sad how many people get into PvP but have absolutely no sense of competition or fair play. They just want to smash people that are at a disadvantage, are outnumbered, or otherwise can't actually fight back. Hell, many people in these threads are just flat out saying it plainly: they don't want skill in PvP. They want ProgressQuest, where the person with the highest logged-in time wins.

In a 1v1 scenario like that - especially in a mirror match - the extreme defense method works really well. He doesn't really have to burst you down or worry about objectives, he just has to outlast ya for a while. It's in Group vs. Group situations where I prefer to do more damage.

That's kinda backwards, really. Most of us from the "old school PvP" crowd from Pre-WoW days don't care much for gear-based PvP. It really wasn't until WoW when the focus shifted heavily toward gear, gear, gear. Of course, WoW is old enough now that many gamers think of WoW as "the old school". =(

In other news, some of these new dudes you've been tagging are draggin' yer name down, Powerr! Been rolling them left and right, time to clean house!

He does have a point though. You specifically talked about dropping a lot of endurance just to get more power, but then turn around and say that the significant power gain from a Focus is meaningless and use - in part - the endurance gain from the shield as the reasoning. In any case, I'm trying the shield gen out in WZ's lately. I haven't really noticed any significant difference in survivability so far, so I dunno. I'll keep at it. My problem so far with it is that even without a shield gen I don't tend to die to small, sustained amounts of damage (of which most white damage is) I die to large amounts of force/tech based burst - typically from more than one target. There are some cases where that's not entirely true, such as Rail Shot, but it's the case more often than not.

How does that compare to gear in any way? I can practice and get better, faster, make better decisions, multi-task better, have stronger teamwork and communication skills in PvP. Just like how a fighter could train to get better at the things that help him achieve victory. Somehow you want there to be some external element that helps one person defeat the other, something that has nothing to do with the actual skills of the fighters or what training they've focused on. If anything, the reality is the exact opposite of your analogy. You want it to not matter if someone works to practice at improving their actual skills, decision making, strategy, teamwork, speed, etc. You want items to matter, external things that have nothing to do with what Fighter A or Fighter B worked on. In the real world? That doesn't even make sense. Most of us DO have that gear. We just see it as a stupid system. Wait, those of us that want PvP based on skill....are the ones that suck? How does THAT jive?

It makes me feel old to see people saying WoW is "old". In many ways, WoW still feels like one of the new kids on the block to me. =(

Um, no. What we want is to be Fighter A and get better at hand-to-hand combat so that we can beat Fighter B. What YOU want is to be Fighter A and go get a knife so you can beat Fighter B. See the difference in approaches here?

I sat at my chess board for 5 hours longer than you did, why didn't I get an extra queen to start with?!?! This game is stupid. Can't wait for Chess Wars 2.

The goal in PvP is to be better than the other guy and thus achieve victory over them. That's always my goal. I don't want to win because of gear. It is rewarded...by being a better player. It seriously feels like some of you want an new stat added called, "Time Spent". It has no DR and gives better returns than Expertise, Power or your Primary stat. Then you'd be happy with PvP, because just staying logged on all day would mean that you win.

I don't even know how to approach this anymore. It sounds like some people want to PvP but have no interest at all in competition, they just want to load up ProgressQuest and compare run-times to see who wins.

Dexterity isn't the only skill in the world. Then why even PvP? Why not just sit on the space station and inspect people, look at their stats and say, "I'm better than that guy. And that guy. Oo, crap, this guy is better than me."

So essentially you're telling us that you don't want PvP to be about skill. I didn't think someone would come out and just say it so plainly.