duridface Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 So the big boy was perfect at launch? I was there, it was a horrible mess compared to this. It all got fixed in time, why do people think this will not? I think you are missing the point. SWTOR isn't competing with WoW 7 years ago, it's competing against WoW NOW. It has to be at least as good, if not better, than a game that HAS been continuously worked on for the last 7 years. BioWare can do it, if anyone can, but not by pretending that any problem is OK to ignore just because their game is new. No video game exists in a vacuum, and they don't have the luxury of entering into a market with no seriously competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I think you are missing the point. SWTOR isn't competing with WoW 7 years ago, it's competing against WoW NOW. It has to be at least as good, if not better, than a game that HAS been continuously worked on for the last 7 years. BioWare can do it, if anyone can, but not by pretending that any problem is OK to ignore just because their game is new. No video game exists in a vacuum, and they don't have the luxury of entering into a market with no seriously competition. If any mmo releaed today has to be as good, if not better, than WoW right now, then NO MMO BESIDES WOW WILL SUCCEED. What you need to understand is mmos are a different beast from other games. The content in mmorpgs is usually much more massive on a much grander scale. And any game that big in content is not going to be released without a few bugs here and there. Devs are not just coding for the game, they're coding for the internet aspects of it as well. This isn't an excuse, this is FACT. WoW released with bugs (way more than swtor did, that's for sure). Rift released with a lot of bugs. FFXIV released with, well, a game that sucks, as well as a lot of bugs. AOC released with a lot of bugs. EQ had bugs when it released. No MMO releases 100% perfect. It has never happened. It WILL never happen. No matter how good, how polished, how awesome freakin sauce an mmo is, it will release with some bugs. THAT'S WHAT MAINTENANCE IS FOR It would seem that a lot of late-generation mmo gamers need to learn the positive aspects of a very endearing trait. Patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sosolidshoe Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 The problem with your post is that it denotes a sticking the head in the sand and pretending that the releases of a number of high profile games in the last 6 or 7 years simply never happened. That the events surrounding the very quick downfall of those games were some fantasy. SWTOR has very little dissimilar from most of those games, and touting out the fact that WoW didn't have a lot of the things that SWTOR doesn't have as some kind of saving grace for the game is folly. What did WoW do? It released with pretty much all the most desired gameplay related features that the popular mmos of the day had. Very very little about WoW was new or revolutionary, but it had the features that mmo gamers liked. They simply gave mmo gamers the features and style of game play that had already proven popular in other games. They didn't stick to any "we believe xxxxx so won't be putting that feature in our game" statements. What did most of the high profile games that have been released since have in common? They decided that having too many features and gameplay elements that were popular in WoW was somhow a bad thing, and held on to some deluded belief that they had to differentiate themselves from WoW by not offering players a lot of the features they were asking for. So what happened? The largest bulk of people that bought the games at release were those that hadn't been following the games very closely at all up to release. They came to play at release. They came to play, and immediately noticed that the products weren't up to snuff with what they were used to, and when they asked that the products start getting brought up to snuff with what they were used to, they were attacked by pre-releasee forum hangers on, and met with resounding noes from the companies. Sound familiar? You want to play with the big boy on the block? You step up and deliver a lot of what the big boy can deliver. Or at least make it clear that you plan to offer what the big boy can deliver very soon. You want to be just another scrawny kid that gets kicked to the curb? The kid barely hanging on? You just stick to your little beliefs about what YOUR COMPANY thinks a mmo should be and what features match that, and don't deliver much of what mmo gamers want and (whether you like it or not) expect in the product they choose to spend their hard earned money on. ITT - people who think "MMO gamers" are a homogenous amorphous entity who all hold the same opinions as them, despite presenting evidence contrary to that conclusion in their own post. I have complaints about the game, but not one of them merits the doom and gloomery that the OP is talking about, and not one of them is a complaint about how unlike WoW this is. WoW fans all labour under the same fallacious(and for any mods watching, no, that is not an "offensive term", read a sodding dictionary before you hand out infractions) lines of reasoning, chief amongst them the Argumentum ad Populum - it is popular, therefore it is good/correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikaru Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 If you see a glaring issue, post about it in a reasonable manor, free of hyperbole, with no comparisons to other games What MMO has ever launched in state that it was flawless and completely polished? All games have issues at launch, most far more than this one has. I have been playing MMO's since UO, and they all needed a lot of work at the beginning. The current king of MMO's, WOW was nothing at all like it is now when it launched, in fact it's launch was infinitely worse than this one, it took years to make it into what it is now "Do as I say, not as I do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 If you see a glaring issue, post about it in a reasonable manor, free of hyperbole, with no comparisons to other games, and without predictions of impending doom, list the issues and if you feel you must, what you think can be done about them, and leave it at that. Unacceptable? This game is dead. Will be free to play by December 22nd, 2011, and Bioware released it way too early, didn't fix anything in the beta, made it single player, didn't add barbershops and really will lose ALL of their subs come January 20th. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calus Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I like this thread. Think I'll stay for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I think you are missing the point. SWTOR isn't competing with WoW 7 years ago, it's competing against WoW NOW We all get that point. And here's the fun aspect of that which everyone glosses over: 1- WoW is losing subs right NOW. 2- WoW has pandas on the way, which will alienate more players. 3- TOR is building subs. So, you know, let them compete. The game has launched. They're working on it right now, they'll fix things. At the end of the day, WoW has to face this game right now, knowing a lot of gamers prefer lightsabers to kung fu pandas. That's far more compelling than FPS lag and lack of an LFD tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_now Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 It quite simply wasn't ready for release and was rushed for christmas. You do know the devs don't make the decision to release right? The suits make that decision. The suits say, "Release before Christmas. We'll make more money." The devs say, "It's really not ready. We need to make some fixes and add some more features." The suits say, "We don't give a ****. Release now - we want pre-Christmas sales." That's the ways it works. And it baffles me how few people seem to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdoll Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 You do know the devs don't make the decision to release right? The suits make that decision. The suits say, "Release before Christmas. We'll make more money." The devs say, "It's really not ready. We need to make some fixes and add some more features." The suits say, "We don't give a ****. Release now - we want pre-Christmas sales." That's the ways it works. And it baffles me how few people seem to understand it. +1, someone else actually understands how game development is. Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) The game was ready for release. Far too many of these Dec. 2011 join date types weren't ready for the game. The rest of us have known -- and been quite content with -- what we were getting for months. If you didn't do any research, and didn't even bother to play during the open beta weekend, then your 'shock' or 'surprise' at what you got with TOR is inexcusable. Again, I don't normally cheer the departure of any gamer -- even a disgruntled one (a fool still represents dollar signs) -- but this 'swarm' thing is just an MMO phenomenon these days. You locusts fly in without doing any research, play the game to death to rush for the cap, blow up the forums, then fly off after the first month to seek your next feast. No farmer is sad to see the swarm go. I eagerly await the 20th when you 'people' no longer have a voicebox. Edited January 1, 2012 by AJediKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelzan Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 with no comparisons to other games, This right here is wrong. Terribly, terribly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masakari_ Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 instant gratification generation This is the entire problem right here. Frankly, I know the people posting here are a minority. I hope BW don't listen to them. The game is great, and the problems will be fine tuned in the next few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelongroad Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 dis game is da worst game i hav ever playd it is nuffin like the combat in jedi academy and da pvp is terrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bringindapain Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As a fat old guy, yes truth in advertising in a forum name, I really do not understand the instant gratification generation. What MMO has ever launched in state that it was flawless and completely polished? All games have issues at launch, most far more than this one has. I have been playing MMO's since UO, and they all needed a lot of work at the beginning. The current king of MMO's, WOW was nothing at all like it is now when it launched, in fact it's launch was infinitely worse than this one, it took years to make it into what it is now, which leads me to another issue. Sometimes enough people complaining make developers do things that in the long run effect the game in unintended ways, SWG is a perfect example of this as is to a lesser extent WOW. SWG was basically destroyed by these complaints, and resulting changes, and WOW is in decline I believe for similar reasons. So be careful what you ask for, complaints can be constructive, but they can also be counterproductive, If you see a glaring issue, post about it in a reasonable manor, free of hyperbole, with no comparisons to other games, and without predictions of impending doom, list the issues and if you feel you must, what you think can be done about them, and leave it at that. In short, nothing is perfect, you will never get everything you want, and complaining about things is not always going to get the result you desire, the sooner you realize these things, the happier your life will be. Old guy rant over. I agree with the OP and think this is by far how people should post! The truth is people will give it the free 30 days and if it isn't fixed...well the majority will bail. Oh well, it comes from the fact that Wow has had so many years unrivaled and had a chance to improve and polish up with no real challenge. Now people want the same type of polish and content from a newly released game and it just can't be done yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emartell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Just because a game is new, it is not an excuse. They have quite a faulty product. Being 2011/12 release as well the standards should be a lot higher. IMO. It all comes down to money. swtor was about $150 mil to make? And WoW was about $100 mill to make 7 years ago, which with inflation equates to about $120 mill So. Not only was BW able to produce a fully VO game that runs great. They did it for about 20% more than blizz did. And well all know that even with inflation, rates and costs have skyrocketed over the past 5 years If you take into account that blizz makes about as much a month in subs as this game costs, I'm asking where the hell is that money going. Because certainly server maintenance and forum mods don't cost 120$ mill a month. As far as I can calculate, theyve made over 10$ billion in subs plus released three expansions that everyone paid for, yet I cant in anyway say its that exponentially better than swtor. Ok fine. No LFD, no custom UI (which is ridiculous to me), no duel specs etc but still, it seems like they did a damn good job with the funds they were given. As for OP, I agree. The death of any game is much it appeases it's forum goers. SWG is a perfect example. Watching it go down was heartbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianoia Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I agree 100%, OP. I've played a lot of MMOs. This has had probably the smoothest launch, next to Rift. For me, it's about having fun. SWTOR is the most fun MMO I've played in a very long while. Probably the most fun since vailla/TBC WoW. "Polish" and "features" are only game-breaking if they make the game, as a whole, NOT fun. And I haven't had a single missing feature or bug make the game not fun for me. There are always doomsayers and people who will complain, either because something kicked-started them emotionally or because they set their own expectations way too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatoldguy Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 "Do as I say, not as I do." I was replying directly to a point someone else brought up, using wording that they used, thanks for playing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappaCube Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 OP is wise indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgarr Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) As a fat old guy, yes truth in advertising in a forum name, I really do not understand the instant gratification generation. What MMO has ever launched in state that it was flawless and completely polished? All games have issues at launch, most far more than this one has. I have been playing MMO's since UO, and they all needed a lot of work at the beginning. The current king of MMO's, WOW was nothing at all like it is now when it launched, in fact it's launch was infinitely worse than this one, it took years to make it into what it is now, which leads me to another issue. Sometimes enough people complaining make developers do things that in the long run effect the game in unintended ways, SWG is a perfect example of this as is to a lesser extent WOW. SWG was basically destroyed by these complaints, and resulting changes, and WOW is in decline I believe for similar reasons. So be careful what you ask for, complaints can be constructive, but they can also be counterproductive, If you see a glaring issue, post about it in a reasonable manor, free of hyperbole, with no comparisons to other games, and without predictions of impending doom, list the issues and if you feel you must, what you think can be done about them, and leave it at that. In short, nothing is perfect, you will never get everything you want, and complaining about things is not always going to get the result you desire, the sooner you realize these things, the happier your life will be. Old guy rant over. Sorry to burst your bubble, it's now 2012! Wow was released 7 yrs ago, EQ/UO even longer back. if Sony released the new front line state of the art media player tomorrow, but it was a VHS player, we would all laugh. Let's not forget,technology advances, understanding of where others have failed and learning by their mistakes do also. Let's plz stop comparing this to games released years ago, a time before people had a chance to really learn from others. We as players expect far more considering how long mmo's have been around for and how much we pay for mmo's in 2012. Look at the engine swtor uses, in 2012 it's prehistoric. If you are happy to spend $100000 on a brand new sports car and end up with a 1982 ford capri, then enjoy. Just don't expect others to be quite so gullible! Edited January 1, 2012 by Elgarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) LOL they removed a few replies here that involved "history" gotta love forum mods. No we don't. Despise? Yes! Love? No. Edited January 1, 2012 by Saitada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larlar Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 So the big boy was perfect at launch? I was there, it was a horrible mess compared to this. It all got fixed in time, why do people think this will not? I agree entirely with Umbral. WOW wasn't perfect at launch but its fundamentals were very close to being perfect. It played beautifully right from the outset, and that is something that cannot be said for every one of the 'challengers' of the last six years including SWTOR. I firmly believe that if the fundamentals of this game were right and it was a pleasure to play and fight in PVP and PVE there would be far less complaints as people would just be playing it rather than moaning on the forums. Because the fundamentals are not perfect people are noticing and complaining about all the other stuff because playing the game isn't perfectly smooth at present. Its just not quite right, and the content of the ability delay/responsiveness thread (on number 3 now as 2 got so big they had to be locked) is essential to the survival of this game. So, for me, I agree that the whining over features is silly but its part of a wider problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatoldguy Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) I agree 100%, OP. I've played a lot of MMOs. This has had probably the smoothest launch, next to Rift. For me, it's about having fun. SWTOR is the most fun MMO I've played in a very long while. Probably the most fun since vailla/TBC WoW. "Polish" and "features" are only game-breaking if they make the game, as a whole, NOT fun. And I haven't had a single missing feature or bug make the game not fun for me. There are always doomsayers and people who will complain, either because something kicked-started them emotionally or because they set their own expectations way too high. Rift had a great launch, and they have shown that a company can respond positively to problems pointed out with their game, I think the reason they are not still growing stems from a lack of compelling story more than any real glaring deficiencies. Though their game is not hugely popular, I give them kudo's for how they have tried to deal with a increasingly fickle online gaming community. The only major mistake I have seen them make is in how very Sony like they handled the latest security breach. Edited January 1, 2012 by fatoldguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatoldguy Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 WOW wasn't perfect at launch but its fundamentals were very close to being perfect. It played beautifully right from the outset, and that is something that cannot be said for every one of the 'challengers' of the last six years including SWTOR. Where can I find some of those rose colored glasses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamHDMI Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 A very wise post indeed. Much respect to you Sir. Only if the rest of the player-base were like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 You know what the first signs of an MMO dying is? When people start making excuses for being under par There have been legions of people who have stated they are not resubbing. Not to mention the people who are quitting without saying anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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