Fixing 8x8 summary of in match thoughts

[kjarnage]

These are not in any order. Another topic is on prefight balancing.  *Ease of player understanding

*1. Team shot clock similar but longer than individual to prevent stalling tactic to prolong unbalanced matches.

2. Limit the number of non forward passes another stalling tactic.

3. Limit the number of times a character can carry the ball on a team possession.

*4. Huttball auto release when your team is scored against.

*5. cleanse on death.

*6. Barrier release time adjusted based on scores.

7. Hypergate no ramp stealth camping.

*8. Two credits for match loss.

9. 15 second rule standing in other teams endzone.

*10. At the end of game allow the revealing the name of character class.

[Alericus]

yes> 1,2,3,4,5,6,10
no 8(reward for win traders),7,9 (just punishing class might as well say no stealth),

the only reason I reject 7,8,9 usually the only reason this happens is the other team is sually buysy ignoring the objectives (ie ball carrier) and a)dueling b)afk c)win trading
those just punish stealth scoring something I have no problem with. you obviously do .

What I have a problem with is hutball and its varients worst maps and the one where I still see the most cheating, next is Ancient Hypergate Id prefer these maps were just removed totally and replaced.

 

[krackcommando]

5 hours ago, Alericus said:

yes> 1,2,3,4,5,6,10
no 8(reward for win traders),7,9 (just punishing class might as well say no stealth),

the only reason I reject 7,8,9 usually the only reason this happens is the other team is sually buysy ignoring the objectives (ie ball carrier) and a)dueling b)afk c)win trading
those just punish stealth scoring something I have no problem with. you obviously do .

What I have a problem with is hutball and its varients worst maps and the one where I still see the most cheating, next is Ancient Hypergate Id prefer these maps were just removed totally and replaced.

 

9 isn't a terrible idea. not that I bother trying to win in HB these days anyway, but the guy who says "I'll camp EZ" and proceeds to stealth in the EZ ALL GAME is a mental midget. it turns the map into 7v8.

the fact of the matter is that if you can just camp EZ and score, then your team doesn't need you camping the EZ all the time b/c they are already dominating from spawn to EZ. that strat literally only works when your team is far better already or the other team ignores the ball spawn. it's just dumb.

you're an op/sin. you have extremely high mobility. other than sniper/sorc with pw, you're the LAST class that should be camping the EZ.

what you should be doing is participating in ball control on the map and then getting ahead of your carrier when your team gets the ball. these fail arse ops who spend the game camping the EZ are a plague and a symptom of how dumbed down WZs have become. like...they never evolve. they just sit there doing the same dumb thing thinking they're this great contributor b/c someone passes them the ball eventually at some point or every 20s b/c their team doesn't need them in the first place.

[SoyElSenado]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

9 isn't a terrible idea. not that I bother trying to win in HB these days anyway, but the guy who says "I'll camp EZ" and proceeds to stealth in the EZ ALL GAME is a mental midget. it turns the map into 7v8.

the fact of the matter is that if you can just camp EZ and score, then your team doesn't need you camping the EZ all the time b/c they are already dominating from spawn to EZ. that strat literally only works when your team is far better already or the other team ignores the ball spawn. it's just dumb.

you're an op/sin. you have extremely high mobility. other than sniper/sorc with pw, you're the LAST class that should be camping the EZ.

what you should be doing is participating in ball control on the map and then getting ahead of your carrier when your team gets the ball. these fail arse ops who spend the game camping the EZ are a plague and a symptom of how dumbed down WZs have become. like...they never evolve. they just sit there doing the same dumb thing thinking they're this great contributor b/c someone passes them the ball eventually at some point or every 20s b/c their team doesn't need them in the first place.

Lol yeah too many clowns who stand there stealthed in the enemy EZ the whole time while their team is getting sloshed 6-0. 9 could be good for dealing with that.

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

but the guy who says "I'll camp EZ" and proceeds to stealth in the EZ ALL GAME is a mental midget. it turns the map into 7v8.

100% agree on this. Especially if your team can’t secure the ball respawn all match because they’re outnumbered in mid. 

This is actually worse on SV at the moment because they won’t open server transfers (another issue). So PvP is dying. Most 8 man WZ games start with 3-4 players per side. Rarely, if ever are the teams even. So when you have a stealth decide they will camp the end zone all match, it’s a complete farce. Especially when one side will get all ranged & the other all melee. 

The game becomes completely broken when there aren’t enough people in the queue. But the bad matchmaking compounds the issue 500%.

So wether you wait 5 minutes or 2 hours for an unbalanced pop. Getting some smart alec stealth player who decides to  sit in the end zone all match is infuriating. 

[Samcuu]

I don't think that putting a limit on how long a stealther can stand in the WZ would work because they could sit just outside the end zone and wait for the ball carrier to get close then enter the EZ. Guess it would take a bit more effort but you'd still have the stealther camping close to the WZ not helping with anything else. 

[kjarnage]

There was one more thought during the matches.

There was/is a pin cushion reward for being killed 16 times. It would seem to me that people that die in combat numerous times sacrificing themselves against impossible odds should be rewarded more then that that are just group camping at the end.  Two to three campers should get points for camping when there is nothing to do. Give the rest zero points.  People actually fighting are getting points for kills so no camping points.  If you want people to try you have to have a system that rewards trying. 

The down side is a winning team will realize that many are getting no points camping when the losing team retreats to their one objective and may attack that last objective. Assuming they leave 2 to 4 defender behind they will do so at a numerical disadvantage. 

I hope people will read the thread on the pre-match 8x8 thoughts too.

I think there were some great thoughts expressed especially on the end zone camping rule.  The thought of defining a larger areas for the rule to apply is one thought. Maybe the design the design focus should not be on the single stealth player but rather to stop teams from leaving 3 to 6 people in the greater end zone area of the opposing side the entire game.  

   

[Xerekfell]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:28 PM, kjarnage said:

These are not in any order. Another topic is on prefight balancing.  *Ease of player understanding

*1. Team shot clock similar but longer than individual to prevent stalling tactic to prolong unbalanced matches.

2. Limit the number of non forward passes another stalling tactic.

3. Limit the number of times a character can carry the ball on a team possession.

*4. Huttball auto release when your team is scored against.

*5. cleanse on death.

*6. Barrier release time adjusted based on scores.

7. Hypergate no ramp stealth camping.

*8. Two credits for match loss.

9. 15 second rule standing in other teams endzone.

*10. At the end of game allow the revealing the name of character class.

Another good one would be if you're not healing the team as a healer then you should be given a afk timer or a non participation timer. So let's say a certain threshold of 10k hps. If 10k hps is not being done over let's say 20 seconds, a AFK timer will present itself until you reach that timer. I've seen many healers not participate and just sit afk at the node while their team gets rekt. 10k hps is super easy to obtain as a healer single target and especially cleave.  If it's a new player trying to heal and gets kicked for not doing 10k hps then that person needs to learn how to heal. It's pretty simple. Broadsword should grow some balls and tell people that. This is just my opinion and speaking from experience.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Xerekfell

[DeannaVoyager]

10 hours ago, Xerekfell said:

Another good one would be if you're not healing the team as a healer then you should be given a afk timer or a non participation timer. So let's say a certain threshold of 10k hps. If 10k hps is not being done over let's say 20 seconds, a AFK timer will present itself until you reach that timer. I've seen many healers not participate and just sit afk at the node while their team gets rekt. 10k hps is super easy to obtain as a healer single target and especially cleave.  If it's a new player trying to heal and gets kicked for not doing 10k hps then that person needs to learn how to heal. It's pretty simple. Broadsword should grow some balls and tell people that. This is just my opinion and speaking from experience.

This has probably something to do with the achievements (or seasons, idk which one because I don't pvp anymore), where you have to win certain amount of matches in all roles. Which is silly. There are no such requirements in pve achievements either, why add them to pvp. It will only make people roll a healer, but since they are not interested in healing, they won't. 

 

[RACATW]

21 hours ago, Xerekfell said:

Another good one would be if you're not healing the team as a healer then you should be given a afk timer or a non participation timer. So let's say a certain threshold of 10k hps. If 10k hps is not being done over let's say 20 seconds, a AFK timer will present itself until you reach that timer. I've seen many healers not participate and just sit afk at the node while their team gets rekt. 10k hps is super easy to obtain as a healer single target and especially cleave.  If it's a new player trying to heal and gets kicked for not doing 10k hps then that person needs to learn how to heal. It's pretty simple. Broadsword should grow some balls and tell people that. This is just my opinion and speaking from experience.

10k hps? Lol

All they need to check for is some stat constantly being increased, even objective points because it means they're at least guarding or attacking something.

Even damage taken stat being increased is great, because it means they're being a meatshield (which matters in team fights).

 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, RACATW said:

10k hps? Lol

All they need to check for is some stat constantly being increased, even objective points because it means they're at least guarding or attacking something.

Even damage taken stat being increased is great, because it means they're being a meatshield (which matters in team fights).

 

I do that in off healing on my DPS Sorc or Merc

[VegaMist]

The only good suggestion on this list is 5 - cleanse on death - which is more of a bug (same goes for staying in combat while dead). The rest, basically means you hate stealth and haven’t learned how to play effectively against them. You want to control how people score in Huttball (in addition to what we already have like exploding ball, or limitation on leaps in Quesh map) which goes against the spirit of Huttball itself (“get the ball over opposing team’s line anyway you can and your team gets a point”). If you’re wasting time on chasing stealth in the EZ, you’re playing it wrong - that was true 10 years ago, and is still true to this day. Huttball is won or lost by a) controlling the spawn point, and b) supporting the ball carrier to the EZ (guarding, healing, lining up for a pass, keeping the enemies off of them, etc.)

When you queue solo, sometimes you’ll get an awesome team (which can be 8 randoms) which knows the rules, plays well together, provides support as needed, etc., and sometimes a crappy one when players just randomly smash around, ignore the objectives (or barely understand them), and blame everyone in chat - Huttball just makes it more obvious. That’s matchmaker for you, which would be nice if it was more balanced, but has nothing to do with rules of the maps themselves.

I still remember how I used to hate Huttball (and it was a single map back then), and then I learned how to play it.

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

The only good suggestion on this list is 5 - cleanse on death - which is more of a bug (same goes for staying in combat while dead). The rest, basically means you hate stealth and haven’t learned how to play effectively against them. You want to control how people score in Huttball (in addition to what we already have like exploding ball, or limitation on leaps in Quesh map) which goes against the spirit of Huttball itself (“get the ball over opposing team’s line anyway you can and your team gets a point”). If you’re wasting time on chasing stealth in the EZ, you’re playing it wrong - that was true 10 years ago, and is still true to this day. Huttball is won or lost by a) controlling the spawn point, and b) supporting the ball carrier to the EZ (guarding, healing, lining up for a pass, keeping the enemies off of them, etc.)

When you queue solo, sometimes you’ll get an awesome team (which can be 8 randoms) which knows the rules, plays well together, provides support as needed, etc., and sometimes a crappy one when players just randomly smash around, ignore the objectives (or barely understand them), and blame everyone in chat - Huttball just makes it more obvious. That’s matchmaker for you, which would be nice if it was more balanced, but has nothing to do with rules of the maps themselves.

I still remember how I used to hate Huttball (and it was a single map back then), and then I learned how to play it.

I generally agree with most of what you’ve said here 👆

And while I understand the OP & others are more worried about the stealths standing in the end zone, that’s not why I like number 9. “15 second rule standing in other teams endzone”.

I think it would make it more dynamic if no one could be in the enemy end zone for an extended period time. Doesn’t matter if they are stealth or not. But I do think 15 secs is too short. Maybe 20 secs or 30 secs would be better.

That would mean you’d have to rotate back out of the end zone after each score. And it wouldn’t ruin the feel of HB, while at the same time making players think about positioning & tactics.

I agree, all the other points except cleanse would ruin HB. But I do wish they’d reinstate leap for Juggs in Quesh Ball. It really is the most unfair mechanic because Sorcs can still pull, Ops can still roll, Inquisitors can still speed run, Maras can still use predation. But poor old Juggs lose their mobility 🤦‍♀️.

Which by the way was an admitted bug by Eric years ago on Snaves interview. So they either couldn’t fix it or couldn’t be bothered & so made it an official mechanic because we kept asking them to fix it.
I honestly don’t believe they ever sat down & decided in advance that it would be a good mechanic to take away Warrior leap till the initial bug happened and we kept asking them to fix it.

Edited December 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[krackcommando]

3 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

agree, all the other points except cleanse would ruin HB. But I do wish they’d reinstate leap for Juggs in Quesh Ball. It really is the most unfair mechanic because Sorcs can still pull, Ops can still roll, Inquisitors can still speed run, Maras can still use predation. But poor old Juggs lose their mobility 🤦‍♀️.

they can still pw and rescue too. i mean wth?

[VegaMist]

6 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But I do wish they’d reinstate leap for Juggs in Quesh Ball.

Agreed. Preventing a mechanic for one specific class, while every other class gets to keep theirs, is bizarre to say the least. So is taking a bug and making it into a "feature".

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Agreed. Preventing a mechanic for one specific class, while every other class gets to keep theirs, is bizarre to say the least. So is taking a bug and making it into a "feature".

the map is so poorly designed that they apparently have to deny the most core ability of any warrior class in order to make the map "viable" (used loosely as possible). kudos for trying something new, but the map is straight trash. you cannot even get a decent DM match going b/c of the ledges and pipes for snipers and ranged in general to perch on and pew pew pew. just horrible. top down bad design. i play a ranged class, and even I wont sit on the ledge like half the players do all match. what's the point. just go back to your SH and parse the combat dummy.

Edited December 18, 2023 by krackcommando

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

the map is so poorly designed that they apparently have to deny the most core ability of any warrior class in order to make the map "viable" (used loosely as possible). kudos for trying something new, but the map is straight trash. you cannot even get a decent DM match going b/c of the ledges and pipes for snipers and ranged in general to perch on and pew pew pew. just horrible. top down bad design. i play a ranged class, and even I wont sit on the ledge like half the players do all match. what's the point. just go back to your SH and parse the combat dummy.

Agreed. It is the worst Huttball map by far. Possibly the worst map overall (though, I'd say, Odessen one is in competition for that title).

Edited December 18, 2023 by VegaMist

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

the map is so poorly designed that they apparently have to deny the most core ability of any warrior class in order to make the map "viable" (used loosely as possible). kudos for trying something new, but the map is straight trash. you cannot even get a decent DM match going b/c of the ledges and pipes for snipers and ranged in general to perch on and pew pew pew. just horrible. top down bad design. i play a ranged class, and even I wont sit on the ledge like half the players do all match. what's the point. just go back to your SH and parse the combat dummy.

It wasn’t so bad back when first released. But then they started making changes cause the acid pits & fire pits weren’t slowing enough or doing enough damage to kill people.

You could literally speed run through some of them and survive with a med pack. And as soon as they started to fiddle with that code to prevent people doing that, the map started having big issues.

First the desync got really bad. We already had Operatives desyncing when rolling off platforms on original HB, but the changes made in QB had them desyncing while rolling up ramps. To the point where many just looked like they are teleporting & totally untargetable.

So they tried to fix that I think & that’s around the time they broke warrior & added the leap bug. They have still never fixed the operative roll. But instead of fixing warrior leap, they left it broken & then made it a feature. Probably because they couldn’t work out what they actually did back then that broke it. When the simplest solution all along would have be to disable operatives rolling with the ball. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[kjarnage]

I think you have to be careful about kicking healers. Been more than once as a healer was left to defend an objective despite calling for a replacement. Kick me and there is no one there! Kicking players is not the solution.  Well when they stand at the edge of the hutt ball pit jumping up and down so they can be jumped to for an easy score yea maybe they should be kicked. Balancing teams should be more than just kicking players that are bad off the team.  it should be putting bad players evenly to the teams. 

 

 

[krackcommando]

On 12/18/2023 at 4:22 PM, TrixxieTriss said:

It wasn’t so bad back when first released.

in a vertical map, what happens when you look "forward" (up) to move the ball?

when it was first released you only had to run the ball to the side of the bottom level and toss it up to the third level, thus literally skipping 90% of the map.

it was never a good map design. I'll give them credit for trying something conceptually new. but it was never good.

imo, obviously.

[kjarnage]

Give them idea not just say it sucks

The stick of delay does not work and the carrot of rewards will soon lose its luster. Do the hard stuff change the parameters to balance teams before and during the game.

Hyper gate should consider quick release for team losing by 200 points, 

in huttball auto release for 4 in the dead pool.

[kjarnage]

Another change that should be considered relates to adding people when the teams are not full.  When the teams are equal size  do not add  player to the side that is substantially ahead unless there is another player to be added to balance the teams.  In some cases only add players to even the sides since it is unclear who is winning. 

You can not have games with 10 to 1 , 20 to 1 or 190 to 0 kill ratios and expect people to want to come back. It starts with better team balance  small grouping, and other small in game balances.

 

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, kjarnage said:

Another change that should be considered relates to adding people when the teams are not full.  When the teams are equal size  do not add  player to the side that is substantially ahead unless there is another player to be added to balance the teams.  In some cases only add players to even the sides since it is unclear who is winning. 

You can not have games with 10 to 1 , 20 to 1 or 190 to 0 kill ratios and expect people to want to come back. It starts with better team balance  small grouping, and other small in game balances.

 

If the teams are even number, then it shouldn’t add anymore. Just let those people wait for the next pop. 

[kjarnage]

If the teams are even in size the option of not adding more is a viable one. If however someone drops out they should be replaced to even the sides.

Here again there should be a limit. I have seen the game declare a victory when an 8x8 degraded to 8x5. I believe that was due to imbalance and not due to people total drop outs. The imbalance also appears as a means of declaring victory in GSF. 

Using a drop out total might also be useful in helping end premade farming. If that many people are dropping out and taking the queuing penalty regardless of restaffing end it even if that can penalizes remaining players if they have failed to make objective totals. 

The Two threads on Fixing 8x8 war zones have provided a host of ideas. Basically if the changes are not made drop outs will be the only option for players to pursue. Clearly the galactic and conquest carrots and the queue penalty stick approach are not enough to save 8x8 in the long run. Fix it, you have a wide range of suggested tools in these two threads.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RACATW]

So what would fix 8v8 is giving people an achievement called "Carebear Ops-grouper", where when you queue into 8v8 enough times in a carebear ops group or full 4 man you eventually unlock this achievement.