Have You seen the combat changes in the patch notes? The sorcerer part....

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Faltun said:

3 of you supported this comment @EmperorRus @-Bob- @Samcuu randomly saying stuff without any details or video or anything

tbf, I think -Bob-'s sub ran out a while ago. so he can't talk. not certain though, as I don't actually know him. 😄

[Faltun]

20 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Lol you are unhinged my dood 😂😂 nobody called u any of those names. And nobody said you shouldn't make posts showing the discrepancy between the op classes and the classes that are underperforming. It's important. We are just simply saying that your wildly reactionary posts are  cringe. Stating you are face tanking 5 ppl in a wz ect ect, it's hyperbole at best not fact. Get control of yourself and communicate like a grown up as opposed to a stereotypical frothing at the mouth try hard pvper👍👍

Well, im not gonna say you are all wrong here. Because I have extreme opinion on quite many things and lets say im too passionate and even harsh about few things, SWTOR is one of those. Also i cant really stand unfairness. Which leads to strong posts which can make some ppl with other mentality smile or even shocked. PPL who know me know how to get what i say. Even tho this dosent help much on an online forum. Besides that, i have valid points in my arguments, in my posts.. and i dont just write random stuff in 2 lines, like i can rip apart any class with sorcerer so it must be OP.....  

 

20 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Stating you are face tanking 5 ppl in a wz ect ect, it's hyperbole at best not fact.

Yes clearly you cant face tank 5 dps for too long even as madness, BUT as madness you can facetank much longer than other specs and making even huge mistakes dosent really punish madness, which really goes against the playstyle of a cloth user that meant to start kiting instantly as a melee is getting close, which isnt neccesary at all for current madness, since you can spend quite much time in the middle of nowhere taking dmg by multiple enemies with high DR%  and tough self heals integrated into dmg abilities and off gcd healing ability.
 

20 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Besides I dont think nerfing classes into oblivion is the right path forward. I'd rather see other classes get buffed and allow the cream to rise to the top

No one said it should be nerfed into oblivion.... When ppl think about needed madness changes... or lets say what i think about how the madness problem should be solved is more like 1 or 2 minor changes like these and not nerfing it to the ground:

- 30 sec cd instead of 20 sec cd on overload..... 
- keep the 15sec cd on force speed or at least reduce the force speed cd reduction on dots
- Give a gcd on Unnatural preservation, which is currently off gcd
- Slightly reduce self heals on force leech like 10% or other self healing abilities integrated into dmg abilities
- Remove the passive heal on absorb bubble when its up or make it a talent tree choice
- Increase the cd on phase walk
- Remove the reapplying slow effect on death brand

- increase the cd on electrocute
- increase the force cost on healing abilities


Just wrote some of the small changes that could help, but even i have more ideas i didnt write but could work and im sure there are other ideas from other ppl smarter than me with more data in their pockets. Not all of them needed, just like 1 or 2 of these changes... None of them would nerf the class into oblivion and implementing any of these would be easy, fast, not resources heavy at all.... Instead of that, we have OP specs for years and not making small adjustments that reduce the gap between the top performer spec and everyone else. The problem is not that we have a FOTM spec for years in every content, but that they dont even try to reducce the gap... Nobody minds if madness stay on top if they at least try to reduce the gap with micro changes, but they even buff them more, when like you said everyone in the pvp community know madness is S tier(forum is full of it, there are lot of feedback, like you said im the 32167342th guy who say the obvious), while specs at the bottom of the foodchain dont get anything.

And this is why my posts are extreme, because i cant understand, i really cant.... why we cant have small changes like i described above more frequently like every 3 months, small balance changes which takes almost no resources to implement and dont nerf or buff specs too much, wouldnt even touch the meta, just fine tuning to reduce the gap between specs instead of making the strong even stronger....
 

20 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Again I don't see madness as a massive problem. They got another good dcd, do u disagree that the change to dmg type resulted in a dmg nerf? If so I'd like to hear your opinion of why it's not. In my experience I haven't seen a lot of ppl running the spec because for one it's boring, and two it's not that overpowered damage wise.

First thing, on DM before the patch, i didnt really see sorcerers running plaguemaster, especially not PvPers or decent well known names. Second it was just a fix to deal the right type of dmg which was not working as intended before. Third, did anyone checked how much dmg they lost? i mean if i understand correctly it was dealing only internal dmg before.... Now they deal the actual type of dmg, creeping terror and affliction are internal dmg so no changes there and demolish is kinetic dmg. the only dot that changed was demolish from internal to kinetic, to its correct dmg type... its clearly losing dmg, but seems not that much for me, but i dont have any metrics for that.... I really didnt see ppl running plaguemaster before, i never ever had problem with that, but maybe its just me. i accept that if ppl say everyone was running this, my wzs even the public ones show otherwise, so my experience with and against plagumaster before the patch shows that this change dosent affect players that much, even if they do, the dmg they lose dont seem that bad, but as i said i have no metrics. I would love to see ppl going for plaguemaster tho, because that means they dont get 10 sec cd on force speed, which is one of the most annyoing thing since the last patch.

 

20 hours ago, Samcuu said:

So you get fotms who play it but don't end up having a massive impact on a match because they spend their time kiting, hiding, and healing themselves

So well lets say its not that op dmg wise, but i think so many specs would be happy to have the single target dmg of madness in pvp not to mention aoe spread dmg... Even tho i ve seen screenshots of single target build (death brand) sorcerer going 20k+ which is quite decent for single target  but generally seeing madness sorc as top dmg in any wz is one of the most common thing in SWTOR 7.0 era, even i had some sick dmg games with purple augs and basically as a half good madness sorcerer playing very few games. Every class suffers from dmg output loss under pressure and if its forced to play defensively, some class affected more, some less. I think madness even if its not the absolute best for dps farming it has a very good spot for pure numbers and also doing very well under pressure because of all the active tools and passives it has.

I think the biggest impact on a wz when team fight is going is kills, you kill somone from the enemy team and you get number adventage for X time, depends on the type of wz because of respawn. A player that survives and out of the combat for like 10 seconds is better than respawning, also if a person is kiting long enough while the enemy team is chasing has a huge effect on the wz, simply because the enemy team is busy with chasing and teammates can free cast on chasing players. Chasing someone with half of your team and dont get a kill is a waste with minor benefits. In this madness is the best by far, therefore i think it has quite much impact on a game even if its dmg is reduced under pressure like every other specs in the game, at least they can heal themselves not just stand behind a wall like a ...... While numbers can be important and both sorc specs doing very good in that aspect of the game, i think kills have more impact and madness is the hardest to kill spec by far while its mobility and control make it one of the toughest to run away from. This combinantion is deadly and no other class has anything like this, this is why ppl are kinda mad about madness... and this is why this change with the last patch was horrible, becuase it just boosted this deadly combo madness already had even more.(more survivability, more mobility, more control while its dmg is not absolute best, but still very strong) simply it has no weak spot at all. And like i said above, the problem is not that in this content madness is the FOTM, there is always a strongest spec, but that they make the strong even stronger with balance changes, instead of reducing the gap between the apex preadator and the other lower performing specs. 
  

On 9/13/2023 at 7:58 PM, AocaVII said:

I can rip apart madness sorcerer on Eng sniper in 10 seconds. Don't believe the hype. I destroyed a "very good" sorc in 4s very easy. They get hit for 16Ok because they are light armored. Almost half the health bar with one hit.

And im gonna finish here with this last part and let this post go, since it seems like it dosent lead anywhere... still dont see any proof about how any of your engi sniper rip apart my madness sorcerer like the comment said. All i see you all are avoiding and ignoring that part of my comments, 2nd time now and try to take the argument to somewhere else, so here is the 3rd opportunity. 2 random lines supported by 3 of you. Yet i still dont see any of you lining up to demonstrate how that happens and show the result whatever it is to prove that you re right and that comment is true! Im just curious, i want to learn from you how you do that, i really want to be able to do that! Please teach me!!!

Feel free to send me your dc im PM.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Faltun

[krackcommando]

You seem heated. I actually agree that madness is op and definitely should not have received a mobility buff. So please take this as constructive criticism when I say I rolled my eyes and lol’d (just a breath or two) when you resorted to “duel me bro.” That’s universal language in pvp for “you have successfully, 100%, gotten under my skin, and anything I say next is going to ‘sound’ like a petulant child. You have broken me.”

[Faltun]

If someone say something like that in 2 lines all i can say please show me and prove it. And teach me, as a sniper main i need that piwer. Thats  it nothing more. Or if cant do that why the hell post anything like that

Edited September 17, 2023 by Faltun

[EmperorRus]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:08 PM, Faltun said:

You realise that it was told in this post like 4 times madness has the highest passive DR from any dps spec

tbh I really don't

Madness: 15(5*3)% for 10s after dealing critical damage with DoTs, ~3.5% against Kinetic/Energy while Resurgence is active =18.5%
Lightning: 15(5*3)% for 10s after dealing damage with Lightning Bolt, 5% for 18s from after dealing damage with TB =20%
Deception: 15% for 15s after leaving stealth or activating Maul, 9(3*3)% for 15s after dealing critical damage =24%

 

 

[Beyrahl]

Here are the actual DR numbers for madness & balance. lightning & telekinetics. deception & infiltration.
 

All very close together but madness is not the best. The longest durations belong to deception, easiest talent selection belongs to madness. The easiest / quickest to fall off is Lightning, by nearly double. 
Madness just happens to be much easier to maintain without giving up anything too useful, cloud mind being moved does help with this dilemma but it's a no-brainer the power of the passive DR option due to its uptime. A lot of specs don't reach the same DR and it is a range class that has to channel a lot. Cloud Mind not being a combo option anymore does help it, the force speed talent being available does make it a monster in many different aspects it was already good at. 
I would probably complain about the force speed up time and make it work off of only taking damage instead of working off of your own periodic damage. This would immediately make it less useful to take while still making it good in other situations where it already finds its best use - when you're actually dealing with pressure. 

Also for perspective on how strong these DR talents for inquisitor are, Annihilation gets 5% DR that doesn't even show up on the sheet, meaning it would be at 25% DR - obviously difference is that Marauder actually has a DR defensive. Which would only put them slightly above the inquisitors with much less uptime. Marauders DR for example also nearly immediately falls off outside of the cloak of pain uptime. Carnage gets a 6%, Fury gets a defense chance, and mini absorb if they take it. In general, these passive DR talents available to inquisitors are far superior to other classes either built-in DR or optional even if they're light armor. The only exception I would really give is Juggernaut getting leap DR, a great addition for rage but CC immunity on tank makes little to no sense. If specs had similar uptime or DR available through different means that don't require the sacrifice of something vital, the better. Hatred is a great example of slight passive DR being a great benefit to it. 
 

[Bigfallenstar]

5 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Here are the actual DR numbers for madness & balance. lightning & telekinetics. deception & infiltration.
 

All very close together but madness is not the best. The longest durations belong to deception, easiest talent selection belongs to madness. The easiest / quickest to fall off is Lightning, by nearly double. 
Madness just happens to be much easier to maintain without giving up anything too useful, cloud mind being moved does help with this dilemma but it's a no-brainer the power of the passive DR option due to its uptime. A lot of specs don't reach the same DR and it is a range class that has to channel a lot. Cloud Mind not being a combo option anymore does help it, the force speed talent being available does make it a monster in many different aspects it was already good at. 
I would probably complain about the force speed up time and make it work off of only taking damage instead of working off of your own periodic damage. This would immediately make it less useful to take while still making it good in other situations where it already finds its best use - when you're actually dealing with pressure. 

Also for perspective on how strong these DR talents for inquisitor are, Annihilation gets 5% DR that doesn't even show up on the sheet, meaning it would be at 25% DR - obviously difference is that Marauder actually has a DR defensive. Which would only put them slightly above the inquisitors with much less uptime. Marauders DR for example also nearly immediately falls off outside of the cloak of pain uptime. Carnage gets a 6%, Fury gets a defense chance, and mini absorb if they take it. In general, these passive DR talents available to inquisitors are far superior to other classes either built-in DR or optional even if they're light armor. The only exception I would really give is Juggernaut getting leap DR, a great addition for rage but CC immunity on tank makes little to no sense. If specs had similar uptime or DR available through different means that don't require the sacrifice of something vital, the better. Hatred is a great example of slight passive DR being a great benefit to it. 
 

So a class being blown out of proportion due to taking it at face value and blind hysteria. Nothing new here for the forums.

[SentinalMasterWW]

7 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

All very close together but madness is not the best. The longest durations belong to deception, easiest talent selection belongs to madness. The easiest / quickest to fall off is Lightning, by nearly double. 
Madness just happens to be much easier to maintain without giving up anything too useful, cloud mind being moved does help with this dilemma but it's a no-brainer the power of the passive DR option due to its uptime. A lot of specs don't reach the same DR and it is a range class that has to channel a lot. Cloud Mind not being a combo option anymore does help it, the force speed talent being available does make it a monster in many different aspects it was already good at. 
I would probably complain about the force speed up time and make it work off of only taking damage instead of working off of your own periodic damage. This would immediately make it less useful to take while still making it good in other situations where it already finds its best use - when you're actually dealing with pressure. 

Still their Passive 15% DR Reduction IMO is too much for a cloth ranged class, if it was 2 or 3% up to 3 times I think that would be more fair. 

The other issue if we ignore Madness's DMG, is their mobility. Force speed on Madness sorc is like 10 Secs because of all their DOTs ticking, Add onto Overload which roots targets for 5 secs I believe, and you have a massive Pain of a class that can kite you all day and run circles around you. 

Even if you get a sorc down health, they have 2 combat resets to get it all back via bubble and phasewalk. 

If Madness were to get nerfed without touching DMG here is some possible nerfs

-Remove the Torturous Tactics Passive, there is no reason for this to Exist, it only makes the class more broken in PVP, it serves no use in PVE and was made purely for PVP. Replace it with a Passive that gives DR Reduction to friendly Targets Sorcs pull, it doesn't break the meta more and gives sorc more utility. 

-Remove the CC on Static Barrier, this should be across all sorc specs, but this Passive is way to obnoxious and should go. 

-Increase Force speed from a base of 15 Secs to 30 Secs. 

-Make the roots on Overload a passive you must spec into. 

-Remove the Reapply Chance from Deathbrand.  

 

[AocaVII]

Just leave it alone. Sorcerers are paper tigers. They die very easily. It's a learn to play issue since in every war zone, I barely see anyone getting more than 6-7 k DPS. U can't kill if you never learned to DPS. If it's not sorcerer, you will be complaining about another class 

Play eng sniper the sorc will die very quickly or burst sin. A sorcerer is very easy to kill that's why they get so many defenses. You have a barrier and phase walk? After that you're dead.

A much worse problem is tanks that can DPS that you really can't kill.

[Beyrahl]

21 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Increase Force speed from a base of 15 Secs to 30 Secs. 

This would legit dead it on the spot. 
It's not that crazy, simply make it so you have to take damage to reduce CD on force speed.
 

[TheVoyant]

2 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

This would legit dead it on the spot. 
It's not that crazy, simply make it so you have to take damage to reduce CD on force speed.
 

Literally just remove the DoT lowering its cooldown, too much of Sorc relies on force speed CD on the other specs too. And it would break or overpower other builds having extra CDs on it.

But I mean its all mute bc the devs are lost beyond reason. Their answer to improving the damage of Lightning (Burst) was to empower the DoT of Stormwatch, not buff the class. Buff the DoT tactical of a non-DoT spec. Meanwhile Plague Master can burst higher if taken then the Burst Spec (which is a choice, not a tactical, lol)

It makes less sense the longer you look at it. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by TheVoyant

[AocaVII]

What do you ppl want no classes that can't kite so they just stand there. This isn't pve players on RANGED classes need movement to not die. Merc can no longer kite is basically melee. Sniper is TOO hard to play for most ppl. So take away all kiting abilities from 2 of the 3 that can kite. So you only want snipers to be able to kite. One class?

This is ridiculous all 3 rdps should be able to kite. This sounds like you just want rdps to face tank. That's not their role. If you are taking a lot dmg and you are ranged, u are playing it wrong.

Melee are suited to take more DMG.

Ranged are designed to kite. You can't take away kiting. I don't even play Merc anymore every single person jumps to u and u can't get away and u die bc u are supposed to be a RANGED CLASS . Not in a stupid melee fight. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by AocaVII

[krackcommando]

26 minutes ago, AocaVII said:

What do you ppl want no classes that can't kite so they just stand there.

hi. welcome to literally every other class since 7.0.

26 minutes ago, AocaVII said:

Ranged are designed to kite. You can't take away kiting. I don't even play Merc anymore every single person jumps to u and u can't get away and u die bc u are supposed to be a RANGED CLASS . Not in a stupid melee fight. 

so what? only madness should be able to range everything?

in truth, the way you describe range sounds like a symptom of SM solo everything SWTOR. range should play behind their melee. they should play with guard swaps and healers. this game works so much better when it is played with proper roles. if, as a merc, I get dropped in a scenario where I have both a guard and a healer, then that's on me. but expecting to be able to be a hero who can passivly heal, escape, do dmg at the same time. bro. that should never exist. that is a terrible result of focusing on solo mode pvp.

Edited September 20, 2023 by krackcommando

[AocaVII]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

hi. welcome to literally every other class since 7.0.

so what? only madness should be able to range everything?

in truth, the way you describe range sounds like a symptom of SM solo everything SWTOR. range should play behind their melee. they should play with guard swaps and healers. this game works so much better when it is played with proper roles. if, as a merc, I get dropped in a scenario where I have both a guard and a healer, then that's on me. but expecting to be able to be a hero who can passivly heal, escape, do dmg at the same time. bro. that should never exist. that is a terrible result of focusing on solo mode pvp.

All RANGED CLASSES SHOULD BE ABLE TO KITE, HENCE RANGED.

It's not very complicated. Players are not good enough to kill ranged so they want a nerf. Everyday I see ppl doing 5k DPS, you need to do 10 k DPS to actually kill stuff with some burst. 

I see about 10% able to do this learn your class and how to DMG and kill ppl don't ask for nerfs when literally no on knows how to DPS.

It's a mess you have ppl click stuff for 15m not doing any DMG. Idk I can kill sorcs easy so I have no idea about these complaints. Litterly no sorc that can't be killed. Go in an arena and have 4 melee jump on u see how fast you die. Before you can even blink.

We already had non moble sorcs. It was an absolute disaster. No egress and you die in 1 second.

[SoyElSenado]

Am I the only one who thinks the changes actually made them a bit worse (particularly the lvl 27 talent shift) and that overall they really are not that above other A/S tier specs??  

[AocaVII]

11 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

Am I the only one who thinks the changes actually made them a bit worse (particularly the lvl 27 talent shift) and that overall they really are not that above other A/S tier specs??  

This whole thing is ridiculous. A DPS sorcerer is not hard to kill. If it's hard to kill for you, duel and learn how to do it.

If you take the dot force speed, you lose all your burst. You just basically a 6.0 dot spreader. You can barely kill anything. You get high DPS because your DPS is healable damage.

In short, it is weaker because there's no burst if you pick that talent but slightly harder to catch to kill so you are correct. It's a burst nerf and survivability buff if you take it.

So you can't kill anything but nothing can kill you if they are bad.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by AocaVII

[SoyElSenado]

 

20 minutes ago, AocaVII said:

This whole thing is ridiculous. A DPS sorcerer is not hard to kill. If it's hard to kill for you, duel and learn how to do it.

If you take the dot force speed, you lose all your burst. You just basically a 6.0 dot spreader. You can barely kill anything. You get high DPS because your DPS is healable damage.

In short, it is weaker because there's no burst if you pick that talent but slightly harder to catch to kill so you are correct. It's a burst nerf and survivability buff if you take it.

So you can't kill anything but nothing can kill you if they are bad.

 

 

Yeah I agree with all of this. The problem I see right now with pvp is that there are too many C/D tier specs. The solution to that isn’t to nerf the good specs. 

[AocaVII]

6 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

 

Yeah I agree with all of this. The problem I see right now with pvp is that there are too many C/D tier specs. The solution to that isn’t to nerf the good specs. 

The real problem is far worse. People are in war zones for rewards not to actually PvP. They run away from the fights, literally do nothing. I would address that elephant in the room before any is done to any class. How can you balance anything when the fights are 3v6 ????????

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, AocaVII said:

The real problem is far worse. People are in war zones for rewards not to actually PvP. They run away from the fights, literally do nothing. I would address that elephant in the room before any is done to any class. How can you balance anything when the fights are 3v6 ????????

you do know what "elephant in the room" means, right? because what you're talking about is discussed in every other thread on this sub forum.

Edited September 20, 2023 by krackcommando