Make the game harder during class stories

[DWho]

6 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

It comes up all the time.  It's brought up, then it's responded to with "yeah I know".

Not a new topic.

But luckily even if you haven't heard, we'er here to fill you in.

You're welcome 

Well I'm glad we could fill you in that it isn't happening

[Toraak]

If it comes up all the time, then I'd have seen it, since I've been playing since early access. I've never once seen it anywhere other then by a select few on these forums. 

 

It may be something worth having as an Option, but definitely not worth changing the difficulty otherwise. I'd rather have the resources put into getting New content for every playstyle. (story, PvP, GSF, FP's, Operations, SH etc).

[GeneralGyro]

5 minutes ago, Toraak said:

If it comes up all the time, then I'd have seen it, since I've been playing since early access. I've never once seen it anywhere other then by a select few on these forums. 

 

It may be something worth having as an Option, but definitely not worth changing the difficulty otherwise. I'd rather have the resources put into getting New content for every playstyle. (story, PvP, GSF, FP's, Operations, SH etc).

what about the hardcore gameplay playstyle? and i dont mean nim ops or master fps or starfortresses

Edited May 23, 2023 by GeneralGyro

[DWho]

12 minutes ago, GeneralGyro said:

what about the hardcore gameplay playstyle? and i dont mean nim ops or master fps or starfortresses

Rarely but they are always asking for hardcore versions of their own not making the whole game harder. They generally don't say anything about the game being too easy.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

I genuinely believe the product is suffering, newcomers leave because of it and it is far too insulting to the player. Challenge in gaming is DESIRED by 90% of the market.

I hate to have to point out the obvious, but it seems obvious to me that 90% of the people in this discussion are disagreeing with your appraisal of the game.

 

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

The entire point of my insistence that it shouldn't be that there is a harder optional mode, is that the product as a whole is suffering.

If your position is that story should be mandatorily made harder for everyone, that the difficulty increase is not optional but rather by default,  and want to give the middle finger to newbies and casuals out of hand, than I am definitely and whole-heartedly against your proposal and state it is totally unreasonable.

This game would bleed casual and new players alike and that would make the product suffer.

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

Perhaps the story mode as it is now can be made in to an optional thing that gives far less rewards or levels you slower than default or something, but the current progression pace should be matched with a more difficult mode and that is my honest opinion. I could be satisfied by a harder mode that gives better rewards, but overall I think the DEFAULT mode should be harder.

I can respect this as it is your honest opinion, which you are definitely entitled to hold, but I cannot agree with it. You are literally suggesting that the things people are currently doing they should be arbitrarily rewarded less for. You want to take something from them.

You know, when I was with my first NiM/HM Progression group I use to be one of those A-O's who thought that the only people that were entitled to BIS gear are people who do NiM and I never even considered myself top player and I still thought that . But when I was with my second raid group I stopped thinking that because we had to break in two new players (new to raiding) and I saw how hard they tried and I had forgotten what it felt like to be the new guy and how it made them feel and that changed my mind.

It's a friggen video game. We don't get to impose our personal standards or expectations on other people who are also paying customers and have every right to play their game however the hell they want to and are comfortable with. We don't get to say what other people should get as rewards for their efforts or even the lack their of, the DEVs do.  Games are about having fun. Stop trying to ruin other peoples fun based on what you want.

 

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

many people I know refuse to even play because of how mind numbingly boring it is, including my wife, who is NOT a hardcore gamer.

Well perhaps you could tell them about Raiding and PVP, ya know, where people actually go for some challenge?

I'm not sure the relevance of stating your wife is not a hardcore gamer on this topic. No "hardcore players" are leaving the game or refuse to play it because the vanilla story is too easy. They don't see story as a standard by which to gauge a players skill.

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

The entire experience is suffering and people are acting like it's fine cuz the game is about story. No. No it is not fine. The class stories are the BACKBONE of the onboarding experience and they need to be fixed.

I had no idea that the entire experience of this game was the vanilla story. I guess that's why we never see people playing level 80 characters because the vanilla story has already finished by than.

I'm a little confused because I finished my class story 9 and a half years ago. Maybe that's why I'm not bored!!

2 hours ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

No. No it is not fine.

Yes. Yes, I'm fine with it.

Edited May 23, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Diamaht]

45 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Yes. Yes, I'm fine with it.

To make sure we understand you.  1 or 2 shotting a main story, planet ending boss is ok?

Just want be clear on what you are defending.

[DWho]

3 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

To make sure we understand you.  1 or 2 shotting a main story, planet ending boss is ok?

Just want be clear on what you are defending.

That happens rarely if ever. I've done that fight dozens of time with overpowereed characters and never had it happen once.

Edit: Just to be clear I have tested claims of one shotting bosses, mobs, etc dozens of time when they are brought up on the forums and never ever has it happened as indicated much less on a regular basis.

Edited May 23, 2023 by DWho

[Leland_SmokeZz]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

While I do agree with you that story is stupid easy, you are making some pretty big objective claims here.

"What I am saying is that it is so easy it is not even a game. "

I do think that there are probably quite a few people (myself included) that would disagree with this statement. Easy as hell, yeah, but I definitely think it's a game.

"You literally could theoretically auto attack every enemy in the story to death."

This one is objectively false. There are quite a few boss fights in the Eternal Whateverthehell storyline whom you're not going to sleep-walk through. And I would say Eternal Championship, at least some of the later fights do pose something of a challenge and there are definitely mechanics in some of those fights.

But, in Vanilla storyline, that's fairly true in most cases.

"It is detracting from the experience, even for those who want it to be easy, for it to be THAT easy."

This claim is proven false by several people who are currently engaging in this conversation.

Story does what it is intended to do exceedingly well in this game. Say what you will about Bioware, but they know how to tell a good story.  My only objection with regard to story in this game is that it is often not in keeping with Lucas's Vision of Star Wars and contradicts some stuff, but, seeing past that, I still think by and large they do an excellent job at telling story.

Now this is just my opinion, but, I don't have any complaints about story in this game other than one story fits all post vanilla, and even that's done pretty well, generally speaking.

The game already has a system in place to choose different levels of difficultly in story (at least part of it) with the Eternal whateverthehell storyline. All they would need to do is extend it to other areas of story.

For me, I get challenge where I think it's appropriate to, and where most players go for it,  Raiding and PVP. I don't think most players look at story in the context of difficulty.

Thing is though, I wouldn't hold out much hope on this. This would take resources for them to do. We can't just assume all they have to do is switch some switch and its all done for all the various storylines in the game crossing 8 different classes.

While I am fine with making this an optional thing, I think if they spend resources and time on this they would get a lot of backlash from players with other interests in the game and other areas of the game that really could use some needed attention. (End game group content, GSF, fixing bugs, crafting, class balance, the in-game economy, disconnects, etc.)

I don't see this as a high priority issue for most players, or even an issue at all to a great majority. I do feel there are other areas of the game that constitute a higher priority than this.

 

I meant the class story.

[Diamaht]

Just now, DWho said:

That happens rarely if ever. I've done that fight dozens of time with overpowereed characters and never had it happen once.

Is see.  But if it were to happen, hypothetically speaking of course, that would be bad?

[DWho]

2 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

Is see.  But if it were to happen, hypothetically speaking of course, that would be bad?

No, because very rare occurrences do happen and are not indicative of a problem.

Edit: Not that long ago I got a Czerka crate as a mob drop. A very rare occurrence. Does that mean there is something wrong with the loot tables.

Edited May 23, 2023 by DWho

[Diamaht]

Just now, DWho said:

No, because very rare occurrences do happen and are not indicative of a problem.

Ok, so if say instances of that were found, still hypothetically speaking of course, Bioware should fix that?  Since it is in fact bad?

[Leland_SmokeZz]

2 hours ago, DWho said:

I was wondering how long it would take for the true reasons for wanting it harder to come out. This has been standard fare for the game is too easy crowd for a while. If I play the game in easy mode (which is no challenge to me) I should get the same rewards as someone who doesn't find it so easy but when I play content that is equivalent challenge, I should get more rewards. Personally, they should reduce rewards for any character that is above the planet level and wearing gear higher than the planet level. Playing a level 10 planet with a level 70 character, you get 1/7 the reward because it is too easy at that level. Wearing 320 gear on Coruscant get 1/20 the reward.

Idc if they do that, thats fine. What you seem to think are my "true reasons" are not accurate. I just like a challenge.

[DWho]

Just now, Diamaht said:

Ok, so if say instances of that were found, still hypothetically speaking of course, Bioware should fix that?  Since it is in fact bad?

As I said, It's not bad when something happens rarely. It is mathematically possible with the right combinations of abilities and lucky criticals, that doesn't make it broken any more than winning the lottery means the lottery system is broken. Your hypothetical are nonsensical.

[Leland_SmokeZz]

I see enough support for the idea that the games leveling process should be at least a little harder so you have to at least use abilities. I know many many people agree with this take. Yeah I am being a little demanding, because I think it is insanity that you can auto attack class story content till its dead with no threat of ever dying because of companion heals. It ruins every gear upgrade, it ruins every bit of power increase, it ruins class fantasy and it ruins the vibe the game USED to have before a level 10 could pull 20 mobs and survive. Its bad game design period. I meant it when I said there is nothing you can say that will change my mind. I see it as lazy and foolish to leave the game in this state.

[Diamaht]

23 minutes ago, DWho said:

As I said, It's not bad when something happens rarely. It is mathematically possible with the right combinations of abilities and lucky criticals, that doesn't make it broken any more than winning the lottery means the lottery system is broken. Your hypothetical are nonsensical.

So we are just making it all up?   Well either way, hopefully this type of feedback gets heard. 

With what appears to be legit competition on the horizon over the next couple years things really need to get cleaned up.  To Bioware's credit it feels like they are taking real steps at this point so I'm thankful and perhaps hopeful.

[Toraak]

22 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

So we are just making it all up?   Well either way, hopefully this type of feedback gets heard. 

With what appears to be legit competition on the horizon over the next couple years things really need to get cleaned up.  To Bioware's credit it feels like they are taking real steps at this point so I'm thankful and perhaps hopeful.

why? Swtor has had countless games as competition. I've lost count on how many games people claimed would "Kill Swtor". Including some that were hyped about how challenging they were going to be. These game not only didn't kill Swtor at all, but some of the ones that were all about challenging content have actually been shuttered.

 

Edit: For some reason Wildstar rings a bell for the one that claimed it was for players that wanted a challenge. I may have the game wrong, but I know there was one that claimed it was for a challenge.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Toraak

[LD_Little_Dragon]

45 minutes ago, Leland_SmokeZz said:

. Yeah I am being a little demanding, because I think it is insanity that you can auto attack class story content till its dead with no threat of ever dying because of companion heals.

Then do something about that.  Put your companion on dps, on tank, or even on passive.

If you want more challenge while doing the class storyline then use the tools already in the game.

Bored?  Take your companion off heals and do a heroic while on-level.  Do the story flashpoints without the combat droid or a heal companion.  Solo a veteran flashpoint. 

Do NOT take things away from other players (their easy mode game) just because you are too lazy to use the tools available to make things more challenging.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, Diamaht said:

To make sure we understand you.  1 or 2 shotting a main story, planet ending boss is ok?

Just want be clear on what you are defending.

Please show me a leveling character 1 or 2 shotting a main story, planet ending boss.

All I am defending here is newbies and casuals not being forced to do more difficult story if they don't want to. I'm fine with it being optional.

Edited May 23, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Shayddow]

Quote

The JK got a healing companion early because they were weak defensively while the trooper got it late because they were strong defensively (the healer companions were generally weaker offensively to compensate).

This is false. The first healing companion you got as a Knight was Doc, on Balmorra. (Chapter 2). T-7 was a tank, Kira was DPS.

The first healing companion for the trooper was Elara, which you got on Taris. Chapter 1.

[Spikanor]

6 hours ago, Toraak said:

As for a 2nd progression, I get plenty of progression from working on achievements or goals I can set for myself in game, but that doesn't mean BW can't do something else. Isn't Galactic Season's, and PvP season's a form of progression if your doing it on level 80's?

the gelactic seasons are only for 9 month's and what about the other 3 month's since we all know its getting boring always.

the PVP seasons are for the one's that like it and are good in it.

for me i really suck in it.

and second thing is you need to have the max armor raiting to join the ranked seasons.

and this is something i have told all on my own thread all.

a lot off MMORPG game's have now a day's a second progression system that give a reason to play the max level chars a lot then not play with then since there earn notting anymore.

the rewnon system was a good second progression system the only crap from it was the rewards you got from it so the only way to make it better was to chance the rewards more like remove the armor rewards and chance then to the 3 jawa scrap materials and tech fragments since thats what you get always from destroying the crap gear rewards.

6 hours ago, Toraak said:

Then you should welcome the CHOICE to have XP be reduced. You want something similar to the white acute module that gets rid of Double XP during those events but you want it function during normal everyday gaming, not just the event.

but do you think BW has the time for that to make something like that as a option for us.

first of all we all know there are really understaff the contant flow is the worst and not has reach the min of each 6 month's a new expension same with fixing bugs that can take up for years before something has a good fix finaly.

and second of all do you think there like to give us a option to do it or not since if a lot off people hate the new armor system for level 80 then why that was not become a option also so that the one's that hate it can use mods or something like that also.

[Ardrossan]

2 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

but do you think BW has the time for that to make something like that as a option for us.

first of all we all know there are really understaff the contant flow is the worst and not has reach the min of each 6 month's a new expension same with fixing bugs that can take up for years before something has a good fix finaly.

and second of all do you think there like to give us a option to do it or not since if a lot off people hate the new armor system for level 80 then why that was not become a option also so that the one's that hate it can use mods or something like that also.

It already exists, the WAM works fine outside of 2xp, that dude was misinformed. 

I suspect quite a few of the "game is too easy" folks in this thread would change their thinking if they kept the WAM on all the time, left planets before level sync activates, set their comp to dps, avoided increasing their influence beyond conversational gains, and used the green fleet mods to gear for the 1-65 experience. 

Can bioware offer options to improve the game difficulty? Sure, others have mentioned an option to shift story instances to the player's level, or at least away from the starter planet level range that makes finale bosses a faceroll. They could also add a debuff that weakens companion HP or even their character HP. But those of us who have wanted increased difficulty in this game for a long time have found tools and strategies independent of bioware, because complaining to bioware will rarely be successful.

[bhoowy]

6 hours ago, Ardrossan said:

It already exists, the WAM works fine outside of 2xp, that dude was misinformed. 

I suspect quite a few of the "game is too easy" folks in this thread would change their thinking if they kept the WAM on all the time, left planets before level sync activates, set their comp to dps, avoided increasing their influence beyond conversational gains, and used the green fleet mods to gear for the 1-65 experience.

WAM vendor is only available during Double XP Event. I also believe you suspicions are in error.

I fully agree with the OP and I also find the game tad dull. I posted a suggestion to make WAM vendor permanently available here: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/929608-white-acute-module-availability-outside-of-2xp - I think this is the only realistic hope we have.

[Ramalina]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:16 PM, Leland_SmokeZz said:

 It is SO easy rn that even the most casual of players could not possibly struggle at any point, ever. You can auto attack everything to death.

Given how frequently I see people in chat asking for help on Class Story bosses because they can't manage them, this is fairly easy to verify as a false statement.

 

I wouldn't mind a KTOFE style story-veteran-master option for instanced world and class missions, though I don't think BW would be likely to do a good job of it.   Typically for "scaling" they just do a multiplier on the NPC damage and a multiplier on the NPC health pool.   Which, honestly, mostly just makes autoattacking through stuff take longer.

 

To teach gameplay, what you want is something more like specific attacks that are cooldown limited that impose a big but recoverable hit, (say 25%, 33%, or 50% of expected player health), that can be avoided by LoS or cooldowns, or interrupts, etc.   Also some burst DPS windows "Mr. Bad Dude is feeling queasy, hit him now," type stuff.   Some "don't stand in the stupid," as well.  In short, PvE mechanics.   The problem is that this takes time and attention to each encounter rather than a tiny code fragment with a multiplier that applies to all NPCs in a zone, so it won't happen.   The underlying problem isn't so much that they allowed inflation of player and companion stats, as that when level scaling came in they actually did the work to go through a lot of encounters and pull the PvE mechanics out, turning almost everything into the most basic form of tank and spank.   With out the variety of fight mechanics cranking numbers up doesn't so much bring back challenge as it does increase tedium.

 

So really, I'd like the KOTFE style difficulty option menu, but for the implementation, I'd like the difficulty to be in line with what  Oricon daily bosses were when they released, where it's more a matter of getting mechanics right than it is a matter of hacking through an endless conveyor of skytroopers or wading through the massive health pool of a monolith.   Sure make the hits a bit harder on vet and master difficulty, but mostly run it as story: 0-1 fight mechanics, vet: 2-3 fight mechanics, master: 3+ mechanics and tighter timing on hitting the mechanics.

 

The whole ability pruning scheme they came up with for 7.0 hasn't helped with this.  The way ability grants are spread out now, it's starting to constrain what they can put back in as mechanics at at lower levels, because some classes may not have the abilities that are meant to solve certain PvE mechanics at the appropriate level anymore.   This could be solved of course, but you have to ask yourself if Bioware is likely to solve it or just make it worse.

[DWho]

11 hours ago, Diamaht said:

So we are just making it all up?   Well either way, hopefully this type of feedback gets heard. 

With what appears to be legit competition on the horizon over the next couple years things really need to get cleaned up.  To Bioware's credit it feels like they are taking real steps at this point so I'm thankful and perhaps hopeful.

You could actually provide feedback. That might help instead of just saying over and over the game is too easy. Give examples of what you consider a challenge. Should a planet mini boss kill you 3 out of every 4 times you fight it. Should you win the fight with less than 10% health left. Should the battle take 5-10 minutes. These are obviously exaggerations but what exactly is your definition of a challenge from the game in something more concrete than a vague "I'll know it when I see it response". Then maybe there could be a discussion about how to accomplish it in a way other than upending the entire game.

[Tentou]

An Ironman version of the class stories, complete with an achievement and title, seems like an easy win. Would bring new and past players into the game alike for little to no development cost