Make the game harder during class stories

[DWho]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Then you must live in a bubble if you believe that.

They quit because there was no end game content after the story missions, they didn't expect people to finish them so quickly. Once most people saw the lack of endgame/otehr mmos had it way better they went back to wow

SWTOR launched with 2 Operations (5 bosses each). WOW launched with zero. Rift launched with no raids. Warhammer Online launched with 1 raid. Age of Conan launched with 1 raid. Everquest launched with 1 world boss. Final Fantasy 11 launched with no end game content. How exactly was SWTOR different in end game content than these contemporary MMOs

[DWho]

1 hour ago, Diamaht said:

8 datatcrons

30 lvl apx

Kira was around 10

Legacy lvl around 40

Does it matter?  Ya know what, I might have two shot the planet boss.  I probably did cast saber throw.  Guess we are good then lol.

Under no circumstance should that happen as you are leveling.  You are out of your mind if you think a video game should work this way, or that anyone other than a very small subset of gamers would gain fulfillment from it. 

What will you do if things stay the way they are and this shuts down?

Edit: For tactfulness

 

The point simply is that there is a massive difference in power between brand new players on their first character and "professional" players on their 20th character after playing 10 years and accumulating all the bonuses associated with playing that long. Your experience is completely different from what someone on their first character experiences (they aren't one or two shotting anything).

So when I leave the mailbox on Tython and my character is as powerful as a new player's character leaving Taris, the game should be balanced around that instead of the much weaker character that the new player is going to have. That is a recipe for a game shutting down.

The game never was difficult, just tedious and it was end game players that complained the most about how long it took to get their second and third alts to "endgame".

[Diamaht]

9 minutes ago, DWho said:

SWTOR launched with 2 Operations (5 bosses each). WOW launched with zero. Rift launched with no raids. Warhammer Online launched with 1 raid. Age of Conan launched with 1 raid. Everquest launched with 1 world boss. Final Fantasy 11 launched with no end game content. How exactly was SWTOR different in end game content than these contemporary MMOs

Not sure what to tell you man.  That was how it went, those were the conversations people were having at that time.  I suppose you could have explained that to them at the time.

But again what does that have to do with the current difficulty, or lack of it, in the game today?

[Diamaht]

2 minutes ago, DWho said:

The point simply is that there is a massive difference in power between brand new players on their first character and "professional" players on their 20th character after playing 10 years and accumulating all the bonuses associated with playing that long. Your experience is completely different from what someone on their first character experiences (they aren't one or two shotting anything).

So when I leave the mailbox on Tython and my character is as powerful as a new player's character leaving Taris, the game should be balanced around that instead of the much weaker character that the new player is going to have. That is a recipe for a game shutting down.

The game never was difficult, just tedious and it was end game players that complained the most about how long it took to get their second and third alts to "endgame".

Well then there you go.  We now know what to nerf, to help set things to normal.  Although I think it will take a lot more than just that.

Its good to track down the exact reasons that this thing is happening and fix the issue.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Diamaht

[DWho]

1 minute ago, Diamaht said:

Not sure what to tell you man.  That was how it went, those were the conversations people were having at that time.  I suppose you could have explained that to them at the time.

But again what does that have to do with the current difficulty, or lack of it, in the game today?

It doesn't really other than being a response to someone who said SWTOR didn't have as much end game content as other MMOs and that was why people left as opposed to the grind the game was in the first 6-12 months.

[Diamaht]

Just now, DWho said:

It doesn't really other than being a response to someone who said SWTOR didn't have as much end game content as other MMOs and that was why people left as opposed to the grind the game was in the first 6-12 months.

With that out of the way.  I'm not on my 20th character.  If you could, since you asked specifics from me, could you please explain what part of my legacy are adding to my totals?

[DWho]

1 minute ago, Diamaht said:

With that out of the way.  I'm not on my 20th character.  If you could, since you asked specifics from me, could you please explain what part of my legacy are adding to my totals?

I'll have to follow up with you on that. I'm not on my gaming rig right now. After I log in tomorrow, I'll respond to your post. One thing that does impact things a bit are class buffs as well. Having all 4 class buffs is a pretty big boost.

[Diamaht]

21 minutes ago, DWho said:

I'll have to follow up with you on that. I'm not on my gaming rig right now. After I log in tomorrow, I'll respond to your post. One thing that does impact things a bit are class buffs as well. Having all 4 class buffs is a pretty big boost.

They are a matter of small percentages.  5 or 10 percent buffs and such.  Otherwise its presence from having unlocked companions.  Companions being far too strong is a good place to start.  But I'm quite sure more fundamental changes to the mobs were made and I think they should be changed back.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Diamaht

[DWho]

Just now, Diamaht said:

They are a matter of small percentages.  5 or 10 percent buffs and such.  Otherwise it presence from having unlocked companions.  Companions being far too strong is a good place to start.  But I'm quite sure more fundamental changes to the mobs were made and I think should be changed back.

Health in open world mobs was reduced (primarily to reduce the slog) but they didn't fundamentally change their abilities. I don't believe they reduced the health of any "bosses" or champs (maybe not even golds) except for what Level Sync might be doing.

More the universality of companions than their actual strengths. The JK got a healing companion early because they were weak defensively while the trooper got it late because they were strong defensively (the healer companions were generally weaker offensively to compensate). Part of the reason the comps got a boost was so solo players could solo Heroics since they were a big part of Conquest at the time (really the only content you could do once you hit max level).

Fast xp also plays a role and the result is over-levelling. The underlying base mechanic is still there when you over level. If you are 6 -10 levels above the opponent they do little to no damage to you (Level Sync actually doesn't do anything to this).

Level Sync is also a bit of a misnomer in that high level characters synced down are still much more powerful than characters actually at that level. They get to keep all their abilities (and have more of them so you don't use the basic attack - which is pretty weak overall - much), some of which the original content was not designed to deal with. Saber throw is actually a good example. It does a lot of damage.

5% is a pretty solid buff considering most high level utilities are 1% buffs and as I recall, the class buffs are added on after the level sync reductions.

[eabevella]

I thought the game survived 10 years because enough people stay/play for the story to keep it alive and not the... let me count... 12 operations they released in 10 years?

[Spikanor]

8 hours ago, Toraak said:

I played in the old days, and to be blunt. Needing to do all of the side quests was not difficult, it was a waste of time. The way XP is now is fine, but they could just as easily put in a bolster system for mob/boss damage in the class story phases to make things more  difficult if they wanted to put in an option for a difficulty setting.

 

For many of us, I've done all the quests/stories, I like playing alts (but I play mine more at Max level). There is nothing wrong with how BW gets your characters to max level faster at all. If I had to level the way it was in 1.0, I'd only have a handful of characters because of how much of a grind it was back then. It was truly a waste of time making a lot of alts then.

 

Now having an option for a harder class story at least in the story phases I'm all for.

but your idea to make it a option has 1 big problem why its not going to work at all.

to make the class story harder option you need to deal with the planet sync system also.

and since you are also a old player then you most know your sith history also good what is going to happing on the end of chapter 3 from both sith story line's where the final boss fight is going to take.

 

and my idea more that there remove the booste exp reward from missions is not going to hurt the planet sync system at all.

 

edit: and your idea has also 1 other problem and that is there not learn how to become strong to defeat something in the game to make your char stronger.

and this is something i have see a lot in the last 2 gelactic seasons a lot when there was heroic mission challance you need to compleet that some players still run in there basic gear there got from the story line missions and not know about the adaptive gear and the mods that are much stronger then the basic crap there get from the story line missions or side missions.

 

thats something you learn only the hard way we have done in the past that if the enemy was to strong for you then it was always you gear what was weak and need a good upgrade with the best there was thats something you learn in any other MMORPG game also the hard way.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Spikanor

[Stradlin]

13 hours ago, ReveredDead said:

I like the way this game is set up. They're story quests, they're meant to be easy. You want hard. Go play Master mode flashpoints or veteran/NiM raids. Not everyone who plays this are hardcore masochists. 

When it comes to non GSF bits of the game, I'm as casual as it gets. I don't want schedules around my gaming.  and I don't like commiting to playing the game non stop for 4 hours to progress in an op. I barely do pve group content. I'm pretty sure this makes me a very typical   tor player..  Despite being such a filthy casual, I absolutely long for challenges and opportunities to fail.  Game isn't giving any. I consider it very flawed how literally nothing in class stories ever makes you go "phew,I made ir!" You never need to learn anything, you win every fight no matter what. It is almost  impossible to walk out of a boss fight feeling like you've done well. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Stradlin

[Spikanor]

41 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

When it comes to non GSF bits of the game, I'm as casual as it gets. I don't want schedules around my gaming.  and I don't like commiting to playing the game non stop for 4 hours to progress in an op. I barely do pve group content. I'm pretty sure this makes me a very typical   tor player..  Despite being such a filthy casual, I absolutely long for challenges and opportunities to fail.  Game isn't giving any. I consider it very flawed how literally nothing in class stories ever makes you go "phew,I made ir!" You never need to learn anything, you win every fight no matter what. It is almost  impossible to walk out of a boss fight feeling like you've done well. 

what you tell is compleet true.

if you start a new alt char you can compleet the class story line's super easy with only the basic crap armor it give's you without using mod's or adaptive weapons/armor sets so the point to upgrade your armor and become stronger has no use at all.

and thats something new players only learn in the hard way by getting defeat by the boss a lot off time's to learn then that there need to upgrade there armor and weapons also to beat it.

i have done that 2 time's only to unlock the buff's from the 2 class i was missing and only have use the basic armor gear you get and it was still easy.

in other game's i play like the new zelda game as a good exemple for this more: you need to upgrade your armor/weapon/shield and bow's to beat the boss's there since with the basic stuff you get there you not going to make it alive.

[Toraak]

6 hours ago, DWho said:

SWTOR launched with 2 Operations (5 bosses each). WOW launched with zero. Rift launched with no raids. Warhammer Online launched with 1 raid. Age of Conan launched with 1 raid. Everquest launched with 1 world boss. Final Fantasy 11 launched with no end game content. How exactly was SWTOR different in end game content than these contemporary MMOs

Actually Swtor launched with 1 Operation EV. The 2nd operation (KP) came out shortly after launch, but wasn't here at Launch.

[xxSHOONYxx]

6 hours ago, DWho said:

SWTOR launched with 2 Operations (5 bosses each). WOW launched with zero. Rift launched with no raids. Warhammer Online launched with 1 raid. Age of Conan launched with 1 raid. Everquest launched with 1 world boss. Final Fantasy 11 launched with no end game content. How exactly was SWTOR different in end game content than these contemporary MMOs

Who cares about those small mmos when swtor was hyped to dethrone the behemoth that was WoW at their peak while being the most expensive game to date. 
It didn't hold a candle to wow endgame and swtor "endgame" had the opposite of what you said, "grind"'. The content was monotonous fast and boring. The difference between ev normal mode hard mode and the such were pretty much a small increase on hp instead of adding mechanics. Battlemaster was the title for pvp and it was attained fast, ilum was boring and its pvp a lag fest, no reputations or worth achievements to grind and more. 
You can go to 10+ year archive reddit post and see why people quit the game and why now swtor has the reputation to have no endgame or even people saying it out right (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F24ZXO9-MA&t=546s&ab_channel=BellularGaming)
 

6 hours ago, DWho said:

The point simply is that there is a massive difference in power between brand new players on their first character and "professional" players on their 20th character after playing 10 years and accumulating all the bonuses associated with playing that long. Your experience is completely different from what someone on their first character experiences (they aren't one or two shotting anything).

So when I leave the mailbox on Tython and my character is as powerful as a new player's character leaving Taris, the game should be balanced around that instead of the much weaker character that the new player is going to have. That is a recipe for a game shutting down.

The game never was difficult, just tedious and it was end game players that complained the most about how long it took to get their second and third alts to "endgame".

Simply not true, i could go ahead and say how i had to same boring experience and things were just dying when i created toons on new servers with no bonuses.

But better to do this, Another person that reviewed the game and was new to it and had this thoughts 
https://youtu.be/h97_3WLW-pw?t=818
https://youtu.be/h97_3WLW-pw?t=1192

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[Toraak]

4 hours ago, Spikanor said:

but your idea to make it a option has 1 big problem why its not going to work at all.

to make the class story harder option you need to deal with the planet sync system also.

and since you are also a old player then you most know your sith history also good what is going to happing on the end of chapter 3 from both sith story line's where the final boss fight is going to take.

 

and my idea more that there remove the booste exp reward from missions is not going to hurt the planet sync system at all.

 

edit: and your idea has also 1 other problem and that is there not learn how to become strong to defeat something in the game to make your char stronger.

and this is something i have see a lot in the last 2 gelactic seasons a lot when there was heroic mission challance you need to compleet that some players still run in there basic gear there got from the story line missions and not know about the adaptive gear and the mods that are much stronger then the basic crap there get from the story line missions or side missions.

 

thats something you learn only the hard way we have done in the past that if the enemy was to strong for you then it was always you gear what was weak and need a good upgrade with the best there was thats something you learn in any other MMORPG game also the hard way.

My response to this is, Why does the Class story phases need to be bolstered at all to the planet? Have the bolster for the class stories fully based on what the character level is that is doing the phase. Yes this is clearly harder to code I'm sure, but would make the fights possible to be harder.

 

And your idea of reducing the XP is simply not going to go over well for the playerbase. Nobody wants to grind like h*** just to get to max level again. Back when swtor launched it took close to a year to get 1 of each class story done playing a ton. Nobody wants to go back to having to do all class stories, + all Planetary side quests and possibly have to do other activities to stay at the planets level.

[DWho]

31 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Actually Swtor launched with 1 Operation EV. The 2nd operation (KP) came out shortly after launch, but wasn't here at Launch.

One operation plus the first boss of the second. The full second one was out within a month of launch. Two months after launch got the third and the fourth was within 9 months.

[DWho]

46 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

It didn't hold a candle to wow endgame

Which part about "WOW launched with no end game content" did you not understand

[DWho]

7 hours ago, Diamaht said:

With that out of the way.  I'm not on my 20th character.  If you could, since you asked specifics from me, could you please explain what part of my legacy are adding to my totals?

Following up. It's mostly class buffs (5% crit bonus, 5% Health Bonus, 5% Mastery Bonus, 10% Damage Resistance, and 5% increase to all damage and healing - all of which are applied after Level Sync adjustments so they have a bigger impact than straight gear boosts)) and the datacrons (which can add up to a lot of points for a low level character - on a level 5 character I have, mastery is almost 200 and Endurance is almost 100 wearing no gear at all on my main Legacy. On Tulak Hord where I have 2 characters neither of which has reached chapter 2 (and just Tython datacrons and 1 Coruscant datacron collected) yet a level 6 character has 50 Mastery and 50 endurance. Gear at that level adds another 100 Mastery and 50 Endurance (and that's not even a full set yet like you would have at the end of the planet.

[Spikanor]

57 minutes ago, Toraak said:

My response to this is, Why does the Class story phases need to be bolstered at all to the planet? Have the bolster for the class stories fully based on what the character level is that is doing the phase. Yes this is clearly harder to code I'm sure, but would make the fights possible to be harder.

this is now what make's the class story line missions so super easy to compleet and that new players learn almost notting inportent at all and think that if there do other things like heroic missions think there can do it with there basic crap gear since its a low level planet.

since you fight in the sith story line more against level 10 or lvl 12 boss when it most be something hard to compleet like level 30 or level 50 boss fight where you need to have some good gear and not the basic crap stuff there give you.

thats why back then some people hate the planet sync system since it make's the story line missions to easy and not hard like it has to be normal.

1 hour ago, Toraak said:

And your idea of reducing the XP is simply not going to go over well for the playerbase. Nobody wants to grind like h*** just to get to max level again. Back when swtor launched it took close to a year to get 1 of each class story done playing a ton. Nobody wants to go back to having to do all class stories, + all Planetary side quests and possibly have to do other activities to stay at the planets level.

what is the point to become level 80 so fast then since becoming lvl 80 give's you compleet notting good at all.

there is no second progression system anymore since there have remove it in the 7.0 expension update.

when the max level was 75 back then i can understand it good that you wane go to the second progression system fast and level that up.

but that is now gone and notting has come back in return for it.

you know also good that the 7.0 expension story line give you 2 mill exp reward that you jump up 5 levels to level 80 for 1 story mission.

so what is the point then to become max level fast if its only more boring you get from it in the end since you waste a lot off exp rewards after that.

[DWho]

2 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

you know also good that the 7.0 expension story line give you 2 mill exp reward that you jump up 5 levels to level 80 for 1 story mission.

This was probably the biggiest joke about 7.0. That was ridiculous but they had to make sure that players could quickly get to their broken "end game" flashpoint. After weakening characters by making their existing gear useless, they needed them to get to level 80 quickly so they could start the gear grind all over again before they just decided to dump the game.

[Spikanor]

3 minutes ago, DWho said:

This was probably the biggiest joke about 7.0. That was ridiculous but they had to make sure that players could quickly get to their broken "end game" flashpoint. After weakening characters by making their existing gear useless, they needed them to get to level 80 quickly so they could start the gear grind all over again before they just decided to dump the game.

the biggiest joke about 7.0 is the super boost exp reward and the 1 hour story line it got and it has make the mark as the worst expension update there have ever release.

and removing from the best thing this game need it hard the second progression system

[Toraak]

1 hour ago, Spikanor said:

this is now what make's the class story line missions so super easy to compleet and that new players learn almost notting inportent at all and think that if there do other things like heroic missions think there can do it with there basic crap gear since its a low level planet.

since you fight in the sith story line more against level 10 or lvl 12 boss when it most be something hard to compleet like level 30 or level 50 boss fight where you need to have some good gear and not the basic crap stuff there give you.

thats why back then some people hate the planet sync system since it make's the story line missions to easy and not hard like it has to be normal.

what is the point to become level 80 so fast then since becoming lvl 80 give's you compleet notting good at all.

there is no second progression system anymore since there have remove it in the 7.0 expension update.

when the max level was 75 back then i can understand it good that you wane go to the second progression system fast and level that up.

but that is now gone and notting has come back in return for it.

you know also good that the 7.0 expension story line give you 2 mill exp reward that you jump up 5 levels to level 80 for 1 story mission.

so what is the point then to become max level fast if its only more boring you get from it in the end since you waste a lot off exp rewards after that.

1st of all the XP amount isn't the reason why the story quests are so easy. That is YOUR opinion of why. The simple fact is it is the bolster system that makes them easy, combined with how much power your companions have now compared to at launch (and the fact every comp can now be healer/tank or dps), not to mention all of the abilities we have that were not considered for the fights because they came out after the level increases beyond 50. 

 

What your basically asking for and not really saying is you want your character to be downbolstered on every planet, but not just with stats, but also have your abilities locked to the level of the planet. This won't be the same as launch either however, since BW just changed what levels abilities are giving to us at. Which won't fix the last boss of each storyline, since some of them are on starter planets like the warrior, and inquisitor. BW would once again need to bolster the class story phases to our characters level to fix this (and only do so as an option so we could choose not to use).

 

Regardless your opinion of progression is different from mine. Leveling for me and I suspect others is a means to an end to get characters ready for endgame. I don't want to GRIND while leveling a character, just to GRIND for endgame gear on that character. Progression at level 80 isn't through the nonsense that was the renown system in 6.0 (That was not progression), but in the gearing of your character whether it is with legacy gear or each character getting it's own gear.

 

I left WoW because of a couple of reasons. 

1) That game was far to grindy on all of it's aspects especially the leveling process

2) Because the community was so utterly toxic.

 

BW has actually done an amazing job at getting rid of the leveling grind, and in my personal opinion after all these years I don't want that removed.

 

Edit; Evidently you forget what happened at launch when you overleveled a planet if you were doing FP's or PvP as well as questing. Everything died even faster then they do now. The only difference is you got basically no XP from the mobs or quests if you were overleveled.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Toraak

[SteveTheCynic]

1 hour ago, DWho said:

Following up. It's mostly class buffs (5% crit bonus, 5% Health Bonus, 5% Mastery Bonus, 10% Damage Resistance, and 5% increase to all damage and healing - all of which are applied after Level Sync adjustments so they have a bigger impact than straight gear boosts)) and the datacrons (which can add up to a lot of points for a low level character - on a level 5 character I have, mastery is almost 200 and Endurance is almost 100 wearing no gear at all on my main Legacy. On Tulak Hord where I have 2 characters neither of which has reached chapter 2 (and just Tython datacrons and 1 Coruscant datacron collected) yet a level 6 character has 50 Mastery and 50 endurance. Gear at that level adds another 100 Mastery and 50 Endurance (and that's not even a full set yet like you would have at the end of the planet.

Don't forget the Presence bonuses from at least:

• Datacrons
• Levelling a human to 50 (+100 == equivalent of two Influence ranks)
• Companion conversations (I think)

Stepping out of the wrecked walker on Ord Mantell, I have (before 7.0, anyway) more than 900 Presence with no companion.

[OlBuzzard]

I'm guessing that by "end game" content this is referring to either dungeons (or similar group participation)  or major raid exercises! 

Even though I'm playing WoW now ...  I don't mess with their new "mythic dungeons" or raids.  I've still managed a few 424 pieces of equipment each of them still have room to be modified even higher (it's a grindy thing taking out open area rare mobs that crop up periodically).  I can grind rep with different groups in game ...  and IF necessary from time to time use what has to be one of the easiest to use group finders there is (IMO) ... and still take out larger bosses in tougher areas!

Why not raids for end content??  Usually they are super tedious ...  excessively drawn out and IMO that spells boring as the day is long in order to complete!  I HATE this nonsense of :  step here .. DON'T move there.. run grandpa run.  Exercises in tedium has NOTHING to do with levels of difficulty.  To me, personally that is noting more than some geek getting off on pissing off players who simply screwed up for one brief second causing the team to wipe!  (Yes I have tried a few of them .. and this was my personal experiences over and over!

ON THE other hand ... Give me a straight forward fight!  That means I need to know my class / skills / and BUILD necessities well enough to kick the ...  stuffings out of the mobs I'm attacking.  Healing?  I usually leave that to someone else who's a LOT better at it than I am!  It can also be done with trinkets / other items that work with a build.

BTW.. for those of you who have messed with WoW lately ... my best smackdown for my warrior has been over 180K (130+ is now common!  I-rating is 407.  I just started playing again after a 7+ year absence from the game!  I can adapt reasonably quickly enough!  I'm not afraid of working at getting the gear I need to build a toon IF it's accessible without the long, drawn-out (and to me) boring raids!

I said that to say this:  There are different ways to make stuff available.  
** Locating tougher content areas on the map (global location stuff)
** Open area RARE ELITE mobs ...  random locations (again may or MAY NOT require group finders to engage).
** Please note that none of this affects basic story line progression!  The story line can easily LEAD INTO these areas with optional quests / tasks and other relates items to allow the player to build upon for a more engaging experience in game particularly when related to tougher content!

Level grinding ...  not so much!  Better gear?  Just make sure it's not gated behind long, drawn-out raids or whatever!  Give me something I can sink my teeth into!

RAIDS ???  Sure!  Why not!!  And provide rewards that reflect the content!  It should be that way!  WHY?  Because just as there are a lot of players that don't really care for them .. there are a LOT of others who (like my son and granddaughter) that really LIKE them!  (In other words the door swings BOTH ways)