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Make the game harder during class stories


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5 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Game at the beginning taught people how to play, things were harder, heroics actually required 2 or 4 people. Most story bosses were still health sponges (common for the time it came out) but it taught you to use dcds and interrupts and proper rotation.
But then they decided to make everything a snooze fest, remove every single mechanic from sm ops or flashpoints and your companion can do the story for you.

The average level of swtor players now is straight out pathetic, with the average being higher on darth malgus, and a big part of that is not their fault but the game itself for being so dumbed down, they don't even know the basics. Then ludicrous things happen, like you see those same people going into pvp when the game didn't teach them how to play vs other people that played for years and know how to play and they think they are cheating or the old players gets upset at how bad they are, or go into an op/fp and they think that 4 more iRating levels will make them do 3-4x more damage than they are doing now and complain about 340 gear and thinking mechanics in a r4 sm op are "unforgiven" or the experience players get frustrated at how they aggro everything or doing everything wrong.

It's night and day compared to ff14, ff14 even on the easiest difficulty mechanics can kill you, and then you have an option to increase your health/damage if you die. FF14 teaches their players to play their game.

I read something some time ago that games now with microtransactions and real money stores tend to be made easier on purpose to accustom players to get everything NOW with no work into it, and then the devs put roadblocks on purpose on something in game or only on the game store so the moment they find the minor inconvenient or something to work towards they instead are more likely to open their wallet and purchase it off the store.  
 

All this to say you don't like anyone who doesn't come out of story knowing everything about their class... Where does it say, and this is for the op as well, that story mode has to be some hardcore experience that needs to be learn, die, repeat? Or to train you up for pvp? Nothing prepares you for pvp, guides and videos included, than pvp itself. Story mode is scripted, pvp isn't.

 

And as for ff14, yes have to move out the red zone to avoid the aoe attack or take big damage. So informative... It's not doing or saying anything new about mechanics that other mmo's haven't said before.

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48 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

it has notting to do with the hardcore masochists at all.

it has to do with the generation diffrends between players.

the new players like you will never understand how it was back in the old day's when you need to do all the side quest's and bonus serie's to reach the next planet level and do with a group off people to compleet the heroic's on that planet also.

the new players not understand at all how it feels when you need to be level 50 to defeat the last boss from chapter 3 from the class story line that it was a hard work.

there are a lot off things new players never will understand since there never have feel it on there own in the first place.

new players never will understand how hard work it was back in the old day's to defeat the last boss from chapter 3 from you class story line.

there are things new players never are going to understand how it was back then when you need to work hard to compleet something.

and thats something a lot off old players are missing that you need to work hard on the class story line missions to compleet it.

Wasn't it the old generation that got rid of all those things and made it easier for stuff to get done in the first place?

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9 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Wasn't it the old generation that got rid of all those things and made it easier for stuff to get done in the first place?

there are things that have become easyer then it was back then and was also a good thing but not all things need to become easy there is a limit on things you can make easyer since it can also chance in the wrong way for the game what is not good at all.

like most off the items like the event items like the BBA contracts have become easyer since its has now a special invertory slot since now you not have to store it away in the cargo bay's.

same with the craft materials that have there own invertory space and not have to store in the cargo bay's anymore things like that are good for the game since it was more becoming anoying and cost a lot off space also.

things like that are good to make it what easyer since its not going to hurt the game in general.

but what there have done with boosting the exp reward from missions is something bad since new players now not learn how to work with each other as a team to compleet things.

same whit gearing up is something there not learn now since its easy to compleet the story line missions more in basic gear when you need back in the old day's the mods upgrade's to make you what stronger to compleet that part of the story line.

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22 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

What's fun for someone may not be fun at all for someone else.

I personally don't play this game to bang my head against walls over it being super difficult, and when ennemies take to long to kill it becomes physically painful for me, so nope, i'm against raising the difficulty for everyone.

I'm all for people asking to have an OPTION to make it more difficult for themselves without affecting the ones who want the game to be easy though.

I suggested something like this years ago!  IMO it could be done for both individual AND group interaction!  (please note this would only be available in areas that are available through an instance.  I don't think that it would be possible in an open world area).

Unfortunately ... (as most suggestions or input from players) this will not happen!

[/shrugs] ...  

(So what else is new??)

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2 hours ago, Spikanor said:

it has notting to do with the hardcore masochists at all.

it has to do with the generation diffrends between players.

the new players like you will never understand how it was back in the old day's when you need to do all the side quest's and bonus serie's to reach the next planet level and do with a group off people to compleet the heroic's on that planet also.

the new players not understand at all how it feels when you need to be level 50 to defeat the last boss from chapter 3 from the class story line that it was a hard work.

there are a lot off things new players never will understand since there never have feel it on there own in the first place.

new players never will understand how hard work it was back in the old day's to defeat the last boss from chapter 3 from you class story line.

there are things new players never are going to understand how it was back then when you need to work hard to compleet something.

and thats something a lot off old players are missing that you need to work hard on the class story line missions to compleet it.

I played in the old days, and to be blunt. Needing to do all of the side quests was not difficult, it was a waste of time. The way XP is now is fine, but they could just as easily put in a bolster system for mob/boss damage in the class story phases to make things more  difficult if they wanted to put in an option for a difficulty setting.

 

For many of us, I've done all the quests/stories, I like playing alts (but I play mine more at Max level). There is nothing wrong with how BW gets your characters to max level faster at all. If I had to level the way it was in 1.0, I'd only have a handful of characters because of how much of a grind it was back then. It was truly a waste of time making a lot of alts then.

 

Now having an option for a harder class story at least in the story phases I'm all for.

Edited by Toraak
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1 hour ago, Bigfallenstar said:

All this to say you don't like anyone who doesn't come out of story knowing everything about their class... Where does it say, and this is for the op as well, that story mode has to be some hardcore experience that needs to be learn, die, repeat? Or to train you up for pvp? Nothing prepares you for pvp, guides and videos included, than pvp itself. Story mode is scripted, pvp isn't.

I agree with you. I was a NiM/HM progression raider for many years, have done a ton of PVP (Ranked and Regs) and been playen the game for 10 years.

The only thing that prepares anyone for Raiding/PVP is raiding and PVP.

Flashpoints will get your feet wet for group content, but it will never prepare you for raiding or pvp.

I will say that dummy parsing and learning your rotation and making it second nature is a good thing and will help you, bu that's just like a per-requisite sort of thing.

This idea that story should prepare people for group content is inherently flawed IMO. Story isn't group content, its the exact opposite of group content.  When you do story, you're on your own. No team mates, no making battle plans with others, no learning to work with others, no responsibilities to do a job. No one is counting on you.

Story is about entertainment. Story is a 'movie' of our making. - I personally don't think it should be difficult because its about enjoying a story, but I'm fine with the idea of an option to make things more difficult for players that might want more of a challenge.

Story and group content are inherently very different beasts.

To me, and this is just my opinion, using story to prepare people for group content is like trying to learn to be a boxer without ever having a sparring partner.

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2 hours ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

That's a weird way to put things. 

Single player games pretty much always have difficulty settings.  It's normal, it's expected.  Swtor story is more like a single player game then an MMO.

I've been looking at game settings and difficulites and adjusting them to my liking for almost forty years.  Are you claiming most people who play video games never adjust the settings at all?

It's a value comparison to other mmo's not to a single player rpg.

The Star Wars IP is nice and it keeps people coming back but the player numbers will continue to decline.

It doesn't need to be Dark Souls, and its a dishonest arguement when that gets brought up.  You all know what people mean when they bring this up.

You won't be able rationalize this away.

And to the last point, yes I am explicitly saying that players do not appreciate logging into a game, have it be not fun and then be expected to tailor a whole ton of settings.  They just leave. 

If its not enjoyable and reasonably challenging out of the box, they just assume its poorly designed and move on.

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9 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

If its not enjoyable and reasonably challenging out of the box, they just assume its poorly designed and move on.

yup, this is exactly what happened at launch. Players logged in found it way too grindy and quit. Works both ways.

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2 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

All this to say you don't like anyone who doesn't come out of story knowing everything about their class... Where does it say, and this is for the op as well, that story mode has to be some hardcore experience that needs to be learn, die, repeat? Or to train you up for pvp? Nothing prepares you for pvp, guides and videos included, than pvp itself. Story mode is scripted, pvp isn't.

 

And as for ff14, yes have to move out the red zone to avoid the aoe attack or take big damage. So informative... It's not doing or saying anything new about mechanics that other mmo's haven't said before.

Not even close. The story to endgame should also be teaching the player how to play their own game.

There is a big difference between the story being "hardcore learn die repeat" and your companion does everything for you. The difference between watching someone "play" the story and you playing the story is basically you just get to press 1 - 2 - 3 to choose what to say after the combat, because you can go afk and your companion kills everything for you.

Legacy story mode ops where removed of every mechanic, the only boss that i can think of that was not removed was ec minefield, and you can see how more difficult that boss is for the average player.

Even something as small as "moving out of a zone" is a thousand more times more effective than "let your comp kill everything while you go afk"

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2 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Players quit because there was no endgame at launch

wrong, most players quit before they even got to endgame. "They quit because there was no end game" is a fantasy built by some end game players.

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5 hours ago, Diamaht said:

Always this talk about the "option" to do this or that.

Gamers don't think or act that way.  When they log in they will play the default settings.  If those are enjoyable they stay.  If they are not they leave.  You will not rationalize some other behavior for them.

If more people are joining then leaving, your defaults are good.  If more people are leaving then joining then you need to change them.

The population growth settings should be the default, the population decline settings should be your "options."  Then everone is covered and the game grows.

Help this game or watch it die, your choice.  Up the challenge and definitely nerf the companions.

 

comments like this are why half a dozen people jumped on the OP for asking for more difficult content because they interpreted it as 'make it more difficult for everyone'. That may be what you want because it suits your philosophy, it's not what I or anyone else asking for increased difficulty has been asking. We want options, not to force all players to suddenly change the game that they were fine with. That kind of rigid, one-size-fits-all thinking fuels their paranoia, and it's unhelpful. 

It's ironic that you're demanding classic servers clearly understanding that not everyone will want to play 1.0 style SWTOR yet you can't get your head around the idea that not everyone wants increased difficulty. Well, I guess it doesn't really matter since it's unlikely you'll be getting either pipe dream. 

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41 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Players quit because there was no endgame at launch

This, I was there, I remember. 

They had fun with the game.  They enjoyed the story line, and liked the fresh approach to an MMO.  The PvE wasn't overly difficult, but it was enough that you had to engage with it on a reasonable level to complete it.  Leveling a character from 1 to 50, while completing most but not all the content on each planet took about 3 or 4 weeks at a slow but steady pace, 2 weeks (or even faster lol) if you were truly dedicated.  Not bad at all.

When they got to end game after grinding it out and realized there was nothing there yet, they left.  It wasn't because the game was too hard.  Stating otherwise is a lie.

Edited by Diamaht
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As one of those who played "back in the day" I remember basically trying to outlevel heroics in order to complete them. The difference was that they were not level synced, so I didn't get as much of a reward from doing so.

I'm fine with the difficulty as is. If I want to play solo stuff with harder content, there is Ruhnik (endgame), or Manaan Invasion zone, or soloing vet flashpoints. Or doing chapters of kotfe or kotet in other than story difficulty.  

For pvp or raiding exp, you have to pvp or raid. The only real solo thing that comes close to "training" you for this is the Eternal Championship fights on Zakuul. And even that won't teach you heal/tank rotation, only how to use some of your basic options (interrupt, etc).

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25 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

comments like this are why half a dozen people jumped on the OP for asking for more difficult content because they interpreted it as 'make it more difficult for everyone'. That may be what you want because it suits your philosophy, it's not what I or anyone else asking for increased difficulty has been asking. We want options, not to force all players to suddenly change the game that they were fine with. That kind of rigid, one-size-fits-all thinking fuels their paranoia, and it's unhelpful. 

It's ironic that you're demanding classic servers clearly understanding that not everyone will want to play 1.0 style SWTOR yet you can't get your head around the idea that not everyone wants increased difficulty. Well, I guess it doesn't really matter since it's unlikely you'll be getting either pipe dream. 

Half a dozen people can jump all they like.  Who cares.

All this talk about the launch is just a dishonest deflection anyway.

The game is too easy, and the story pve content is boring while the story itself is still good.  It didn't used to be.

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How about instead of making it harder, you have different settings, story (for those that like it), moderate (for those that like it a little hard), and extreme (for those that want it extremely hard). This way each person can choose what is best for them instead of making it one way for everyone, as that never pleases everyone.

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18 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

Half a dozen people can jump all they like.  Who cares.

All this talk about the launch is just a dishonest deflection anyway.

The game is too easy, and the story pve content is boring while the story itself is still good.  It didn't used to be.

Yes it didn't used to be, and some people want to change it back and some people are happy to keep it the same and that's okay. There's no need to force one group to go along with an idea when we can just have options. 

But yes good point, your opinion or mine or anyone's doesn't have any impact on whether the thing will be implemented or not. Glad we got that straight. 

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39 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

When they got to end game after grinding it out and realized there was nothing there yet, they left.  It wasn't because the game was too hard.  Stating otherwise is a lie.

This was only a small percentage of the players playing the game. There were no where near enough players leaving the game for this reason to have any real impact. Most players left the game before they even got to endgame. That waves of people left because there was no endgame is a massive exaggeration.

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The optimal option is to make different difficult levels like in KOTFE/ET.

I think a potential possibility is to make planet instances with higher difficulties.

On top of the "normal" instances (Tatooine 1/3) and "pvp" instance (Tatooine 2 or the pvp instance), we can have HM/NiM instances. Everyone will be default to the normal instances (Tatooine 1/3), but whoever wants to experience things with higher difficulties can manually toggle to HM/NiM instances (Tatooine HM/NiM) and everything, including Solo Story Mode stuffs happening on open worlds like Rhunuk will be in HM/NiM difficulty.

This way it's possible to upgrade even the vanilla planets.

But that requires BW to spare people to create and "balance" the difficulties so...

Edited by eabevella
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I'll give you one of the many examples you encounter during the leveling process:  I leveled up a knight, after getting to the final story boss on Coruscant, I complete the dialog and after a full planet of buildup the battle starts.  I Force Leap and the boss dies.  What justification is there for that?

That's a genuine question.

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3 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

I'll give you one of the many examples you encounter during the leveling process:  I leveled up a knight, after getting to the final story boss on Coruscant, I complete the dialog and after a full planet of buildup the battle starts.  I Force Leap and the boss dies.  What justification is there for that?

That's a genuine question.

A return question. How many datacrons do you have collected in your legacy? What are your total legacy based bonuses to your stats (particularly your Mastery and Power)? What level were you? Sounds like a lot like a lucky crit or a massively overlevelled character. I've played that fight dozens of times (even with a nearly complete legacy) and don't recall ever one-shotting the Sith (and with a Knight character Force Leap is just about a universal opener - until you get one of the saber throw abilities). Boosts to your stats from datacrons are exempt from level sync (except for crit which seems to have a hard cap). There is a big difference between playing a new character in a legacy where you have legendary status and someone hitting that fight on their first character.

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1 hour ago, casirabit said:

How about instead of making it harder, you have different settings, story (for those that like it), moderate (for those that like it a little hard), and extreme (for those that want it extremely hard). This way each person can choose what is best for them instead of making it one way for everyone, as that never pleases everyone.

Pretty much what I've been saying for a LOOOOONG time now!

We kind of saw something of a precursor to that in KotFE/ET... It would also be nice to repeat some of the "chapters" and maybe have the option to increase that level of difficulty from time to time.  That seemed to work for a number of folks!

EDIT:  One of the things I've noticed in WoW this time around .. while there are dungeons and Raids available .. there are also a lot of open world heavy bosses (like two levels above max .. Elite) .. the only way those go down is with well geared larger groups!  There is no need to use a group finder..  Just swoop in at the time when these heavy hitters appear!  

IMO there are a LOT of options to making higher end gear available IF the right parties in the team wanted to make it so!  This would help immensely in being able to take on more difficult areas!

Soooo many possibilities...  

Hmmmm ..  anyone up for a Krayt dragon?

Edited by OlBuzzard
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1 hour ago, DWho said:

A return question. How many datacrons do you have collected in your legacy? What are your total legacy based bonuses to your stats (particularly your Mastery and Power)? What level were you? Sounds like a lot like a lucky crit or a massively overlevelled character. I've played that fight dozens of times (even with a nearly complete legacy) and don't recall ever one-shotting the Sith (and with a Knight character Force Leap is just about a universal opener - until you get one of the saber throw abilities). Boosts to your stats from datacrons are exempt from level sync (except for crit which seems to have a hard cap). There is a big difference between playing a new character in a legacy where you have legendary status and someone hitting that fight on their first character.

8 datatcrons

30 lvl apx

Kira was around 10

Legacy lvl around 40

Does it matter?  Ya know what, I might have two shot the planet boss.  I probably did cast saber throw.  Guess we are good then lol.

Under no circumstance should that happen as you are leveling.  You are out of your mind if you think a video game should work this way, or that anyone other than a very small subset of gamers would gain fulfillment from it. 

What will you do if things stay the way they are and this shuts down?

Edit: For tactfulness

 

Edited by Diamaht
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4 hours ago, DWho said:

wrong, most players quit before they even got to endgame. "They quit because there was no end game" is a fantasy built by some end game players.

Then you must live in a bubble if you believe that.

They quit because there was no end game content after the story missions, they didn't expect people to finish them so quickly. Once most people saw the lack of endgame/otehr mmos had it way better they went back to wow

Edited by xxSHOONYxx
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2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Hmmmm ..  anyone up for a Krayt dragon?

Hell yeah!! I still use my raiding title 'Dragonslayer' (SnV NiM Speed run).

Krayt Dragons, just soo classic Star Wars.

When Obi-Wan does that roar to scare off Sand People, that's the sound of a Krayt Dragon he was mimicking knowing how afraid Sand People are of Krayt Dragons.

:csw_tattooine:

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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