PTS: GSF added to PvP Season 3 track

[juanmf]

30 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

Thank goodness! Please please please stop trying to force GSF on us. 

Look, another PvPer that can't read. The stereotypes are true.

[Stradlin]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:39 PM, BryantWood said:

Hey everyone, thanks for your feedback regarding the addition of Galactic Starfighter to the PvP Season track! The team has taken a look at the issues you’ve raised surrounding the current state of Galactic Starfighter such as the medals, objectives, skill gap, and bugs. After evaluating this feedback we’ve come to the conclusion that GSF is not in a good position to be added to the PvP Seasons track at this time.

Thank you again for your constructive feedback regarding this change! We will continue to monitor PvP Seasons and your feedback to improve PvP Seasons going forward.

 

Well, would it be a good idea to put it in such a position then?  GSF is the best way to fo pvp in TOR and  yet, it is excluded from PvP Seasonal stuff in TOR..gg.

 

GSF is quite balanced when compared to ground pvp. I can't see what are the issues so massive that it should be excluded. Why not reward people from medals earned, victories won and matches played just like you reward folks from ground pvp? Where is the issue in that? It'd result in one participation trophy, one ding from solid teamwork and one ding from doing ok on personal level. Quite balanced imo.

 

I had hardly no time to play TOR as PvP season 1 was on. Did two or three weeklies just as the season was coming to its end. Then I spend a pretty trivial amount of credits and walked away with couple of literal participation trophies, pvp tokens, legacy titles and whatnot.  I literally bought my way to halfway decent halfway  active pvp'er, as far as measuring sticks of seasons are considered. ie Seasons clearly are not   (and  shouldn't be imo)  some serious draconian measure of persons's absolute pvp worth. What on earth in GSF is so unbalanced it'd make an unsuitable part of something as..whimsical and light hearted as that?

 

GSF is the most balanced setting for pvp in TOR by far. Mess of item ratings, different levels, boosting ninjutsu, different classes...all of these issues that plague ground pvp aren't a thing in GSF, From match two onwards, everybody has all the same ships to play with and build. Everything progresses at nice page. Nobody is stuck with a bad class, bad gear, bad spec.. everybody is few weeklies away from having a good build on any of their ships.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stradlin

[Stradlin]

Seriously, where is the issue in giving GSF 3 weekly objectives, so people could choose which 6 dings to ding  from 3 Arena, 3 WZs and 3 GSF objectives. 

Optimal would be to give GSF its own season...but ig that is too much to ask.

 

So strange you ignore parts of the game that stand repetition so well.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stradlin

[Stradlin]

4 hours ago, Argomemnon said:

I

This would have given players a way to spread out the pvp they play and increase participation in all modes. In turn that would lower queue times, and then people would be happy.  Do or do not there is no trying. This tease of we see you players that have been abandoned only to have people who have had many recent additions and balances seems unfair imho to those who have been asking for this since season 1...

Reason given has  such a bitter taste to it, too. "We checked GSF medals and stuff,nope won't be done" I mean..I'd get this as an argument if gs/pvp season were some delicate  top end esports thing. Something with RL cash rewards, televized finals to see who reaches lvl 20 first this season! Ofc, it is nothing like this. Pvp season, and gs in general offers a fun casual friendly series of hoops for players to jump through. What in GSF would somehow  harm this process? In what way are medals, game modes etc in GSF dysfunctional compared to warzones? 

 

There are  two annoying bugs in GSF, one(sound bug) is extremely rare. The other(deselect bug) is a  bit more  common but fairly trivial to undo before entering the queue. Neither of these is anywhere nearly enough of a constant to hurt GSF in the big picture.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stradlin

[DakhathKilrathi]

Well, it's now been about as long as they even spent considering this since a dev post here, so I can only assume this thread is going to have the same fate as any other thread about GSF. I was hoping we would get some clarification or communication since the reasons offered don't actually make sense, but it would seem that isn't going to be the case. 

I wish I was surprised. 

If you'd like to join the GSF community on Discord, there's a link in my signature. 

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

Well, it's now been about as long as they even spent considering this since a dev post here, so I can only assume this thread is going to have the same fate as any other thread about GSF. I was hoping we would get some clarification or communication since the reasons offered don't actually make sense, but it would seem that isn't going to be the case. 

I wish I was surprised. 

If you'd like to join the GSF community on Discord, there's a link in my signature. 

I'm currently  wrapping my head in this nasty /tinfoil about some arena champions who have like 30 matches of gsf played between them  being the only focus group that got a word in in this. As you said, reasons given really  don't make much sense.

I prolly check these forums much more often than average player...but This whole experiment was over before I even heard of it lol. It all got killed two days after the thread was opened, wth even is this. 

"Thanks for the feedback!"..yeah...

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stradlin

[Nee-Elder]

45 minutes ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

Well, it's now been about as long as they even spent considering this since a dev post here, so I can only assume this thread is going to have the same fate as any other thread about GSF. I was hoping we would get some clarification or communication since the reasons offered don't actually make sense, but it would seem that isn't going to be the case. 

I wish I was surprised.

And the fact that  JackieKo  almost immediately  un-pinned the thread is an unfortunate indication.

I'm typically pretty supportive & very measured in my "criticism" of BioWare , but the recent  LiveStream R4 debacle combined now with this GSF Seasons giveth-then-taketh  ghosting is almost gonna tempt me toward the darkside.

Must resist....must....maintain...some....hope.

[akashriel]

I am really disappointed that GSF isn’t being added to the PVP track, and even more disappointed that many of us were not given much chance to give any kind of suggestions or feedback, personally I have only just noticed this discussion.
As someone who only started playing GSF a few months ago, but now does it every day, it would be nice for the time I spend in game to actually count towards something. It didn’t need to be much, just an optional way of getting the PVP seasons done, as I, like many others really don’t like ground PvP, mostly because of its toxicity, especially towards anyone new to it. Even so called seasoned veteran PVP players are guilty of throwing matches by /stuck suicide, afking and being vile to everyone.

You get some of the same in GSF, but it is being used as one of the excuses for not going forward with putting it on the track. What’s the difference? As for skill gap, I’ve not been flying long, but even I managed to get the hang of it with practice, and often place the top of the scoreboard. GSF is currently used in the regular seasons, I’m sure it could be used in a similar way for the PvP seasons too. 
I haven’t even bothered with the PvP track this season because of its toxicity, I much prefer the more helpful and friendly GSF community, that’s where I want to spend my time. I’m just going to buy as much of the track as possible. It’s just such a shame really we didn’t even get to try and test it.
Personally I would love some proper clarity on the issue. Maybe even hope for a GSF only season!!

 

[felleto]

Man I was excited for pvp for a second there. 

[Stradlin]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:39 PM, BryantWood said:

 taken a look at the issues you’ve raised surrounding the current state of Galactic Starfighter such as the medals, objectives, skill gap, and bugs. After evaluating this feedback we’ve come to the conclusion that GSF is not in a good position to be added to the PvP Seasons track at this time.

Anyone who knows/likes GSF prolly struggles to see reason behind the reasons given.

Firstly, GSF has been IN A VERY GOOD PLACE FOR MANY YEARS NOW. Only major issue being that BW keeps ignoring it and not providing any new content for it. Ships have been very well balanced for years. In its current stage,  GSF provides balance and versatility in measures  ground pvp can't even dream of. 

 

When it comes to very strange reasons listed..

 

* Medals

GSF medals are a very similar deal with their counterparts in  Warzones,, no? Just as with Warzones, it'd be possible to determine a number that does pretty good job separating people who merely participated from people who actually did pretty well. Idea of GSF medals as some basic objective framework in no meaningful way differs from what PvP Seasons already does with WZ medals?

 *Objectives

Not sure what this means. Destroy turrets, capture satelites, defend satelites, earn kills, earn assists, collect powerups. That just about covers it all. What's the problem here?   Is there a single  problem with any of them that Warzones don't have?  And sure, there are more different  Warzone maps  than there are GSF maps.  Yet, PvP seasons in no way recognizes this: Earn medals, play matches, win matches. When it comes to seasons, that's all you do in warzones  currently. All of this can be done with GSF just as well.

*skill gap,

?? There is a skill gap involved in multiplayer video games. What on earth does this prevent here? PvP season is purely casual fun hoops for people to jump through, there's no  meaningful reward/punishment for doing exceptionally well or poorly. Everybody who wants to get through season prolly gets there just as well. There isn't some hard rating 20000 stonewall that some people simply couldn't  cross. If people had 3 GSF objectives, 3 WZ objectives, 3 arena objectives to pursue and max. of 6 objectives  to ding, you'd make it easier for casuals, not harder.

*bugs

?? There are two (2)  bugs in GSF worth mentioning. One that deselects components on log-in and other that mutes all  sound sometimes.  Latter is extremely rare,not sure I've seen it with 64  bit client actually..Former is bit more common but extremely simple for players to undo. Neither does anything to the big picture, certainly not in context of pvp seasons. All other minor bugs are utterly trivial.

 

@BryantWood This thread was made and then the entire thing got seemingly abandoned by the devs in just two days.. What the heck happened? If you didn't want any feedback, why make this thread? If abandoned because of the feedback, what on earth did you hear in just two days that was so drastic you abandoned the whole idea? I think curosy inspection of the posts in this thread makes it pretty clear entire community, including folks that aren't even super familiar with GSF, would like to see this happening.  What on earth in GSF appears so flimsy that it doesn't qualify a reward  track so casual friendly that even lowbie warzones get taken along?

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Stradlin

[AlkarMBar]

I love GSF and I was very happy that it would be included as an alternative to the traditional PvP.

This development is disappointing.

Since GSF is not in an state to be included in the season, maybe you should remove regular PvP too, since the scorecard isn't working since you tried to fix the bullying to the players by making impossible to know how you have performed in the match 😜

Seriously, half of the game has bugs, just put the *** GSF in the seasons. 😂😂

[Stradlin]

12 minutes ago, AlkarMBar said:

I love GSF and I was very happy that it would be included as an alternative to the traditional PvP.

This development is disappointing.

Since GSF is not in an state to be included in the season, maybe you should remove regular PvP too, since the scorecard isn't working since you tried to fix the bullying to the players by making impossible to know how you have performed in the match 😜

Seriously, half of the game has bugs, just put the *** GSF in the seasons. 😂😂

 

Whole notion that GSF, in terms of game mechanics and overall functionality,  were in somehow flimsier state than ground pvp is utterly obscene.

 

GSF was designed exclusively with pvp in mind from the very beginning. Endless losing battle for compromizes between pve and pvp that ground stuff is always stuck with has never been a thing with GSF, and it shows. Ever since that KOTET era major patch GSF got, it has been incredibly well balanced. 

 

Only aspect of SWTOR made purely for pvp is not part of the pvp seasons.  gg, as they say.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Stradlin

[sithBracer]

First off I just want to point out that I actually like GSF.

18 hours ago, Stradlin said:

Anyone who knows/likes GSF prolly struggles to see reason behind the reasons given.

Firstly, GSF has been IN A VERY GOOD PLACE FOR MANY YEARS NOW. Only major issue being that BW keeps ignoring it and not providing any new content for it. Ships have been very well balanced for years. GSF provides balance and versatility in measures  ground pvp can't even dream of. 

Did you actually write that with a straight face? A fully geared gunship is the most OP thing in this entire game. More OP than 3.x hatred sins, 5.X snipers, even 6.X skank juggs could ever hope to be. Especially in death matches. But I would agree if you just take gunship out of the equation, the rest of the ships are pretty balanced.

 

18 hours ago, Stradlin said:

* Medals

GSF medals are a very similar deal with their counterparts in  Warzones,, no? Just as with Warzones, it'd be possible to determine a number that does pretty good job separating people who merely participated from people who actually did pretty well. Idea of GSF medals as some basic objective framework in no meaningful way differs from what PvP Seasons already does with WZ medals?

 *Objectives

Not sure what this means. Destroy turrets, capture satelites, defend satelites, earn kills, earn assists, collect powerups. That just about covers it all. What's the problem here?   Is there a single  problem with any of them that Warzones don't have?  And sure, there are more different  Warzone maps  than there are GSF maps.  Yet, PvP seasons in no way recognizes this: Earn medals, play matches, win matches. When it comes to seasons, that's all you do in warzones  currently. All of this can be done with GSF just as well.

Yeah in reality it is more just scoping new players with a gunship in death matches or trying not to fall asleep flying around the satelite on a scout (that is literally all I did btw) while everyone keeps trying to target you with missiles for some silly reason.

 

18 hours ago, Stradlin said:

*skill gap,

?? There is a skill gap involved in multiplayer video games. What on earth does this prevent here? PvP season is purely casual fun hoops for people to jump through, there's no  meaningful reward/punishment for doing exceptionally well or poorly. Everybody who wants to get through season prolly gets there just as well. There isn't some hard rating 20000 stonewall that some people simply couldn't  cross. If people had 3 GSF objectives, 3 WZ objectives, 3 arena objectives to pursue and max. of 6 objectives  to ding, you'd make it easier for casuals, not harder.

Skill gap will always exist in literally anything you do, even the most mundane things like cleaning a house. But the issue with GSF is there is no way to practice to get better, except play against other more established players. There is no PvE equivalent. There isn't even an equivalent of a training dummy people can practice on. Imagine the rest of the game was just ground PvP and you got thrown in, no PvE, no missions, no dummy, no gear or explanation on what gear is good/does, all against fully geared established players destroying you over and over for reasons you don't even understand. Would you just say "oh well skill gaps exist anywhere I guess" or would you just not want to do it. They don't even tell you which buttons establishes a target and which button slows you down/stops you, I found that out by googling (its E and X I believe), this is how bad it is for new players.

[Nee-Elder]

7 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

 A fully geared gunship is the most OP thing in this entire game.

Only if you stay directly within their sights.

Otherwise, they're nothing more than a beached whale waiting to be flanked & ganked.

11 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Skill gap will always exist in literally anything you do,

Bingo ^ .

That's why BioWare's supposed "reasoning" was, imo, totally bogus & suspect. ( in this thread )

11 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

 But the issue with GSF is there is no way to practice to get better, except play against other more established players. There is no PvE equivalent.

I've been saying that ^ to BioWare since 2014. ( in threads, in PM's, in-game, in my forum sig, etc. etc. etc. )

Perhaps they'll finally listen and the real reason behind unpinning this thread is because they have grander plans now for GSF.

Delusions of grandeur on my part, but oh well.

[sithBracer]

5 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Only if you stay directly within their sights.

Otherwise, they're nothing more than a beached whale waiting to be flanked & ganked.

In death matches there will always be easy targets for them to pick off to get the scores for their team and in objective matches they can just park themselves a certain distance from an objective and scope everything without even having to worry about defenses. Take them out of the game and the matches become more fun.

7 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Delusions of grandeur on my part, but oh well.

There's delusions and then there's psychosis. Believing BW will do anything for GSF other than try to force you to play it, goes beyond even that to a word that doesn't exist yet.

[AlkarMBar]

I used to think the same about gunships, but you know what? You can pilot a gunship yourself!!!

That's the beauty of GSF: if you think a type of ship is overpowered, you can use it. You can even change ships in the middle of the battle to suit your needs!!

I love GSF

[sithBracer]

8 minutes ago, AlkarMBar said:

I used to think the same about gunships, but you know what? You can pilot a gunship yourself!!!

That's the beauty of GSF: if you think a type of ship is overpowered, you can use it. You can even change ships in the middle of the battle to suit your needs!!

I love GSF

That is the worst argument I have ever heard (and I even listened to snave try to rationalize 6.X operatives).

By that logic, (incoming extreme example) if there was a class that can literally one shot other classes from 150m away and was completely ruining the game, you could literally say the same thing. Why are you asking for actual balance? Just play that class!! That is the beauty of ground PvP, play the class you want. I love ground PvP!!!

[Nee-Elder]

9 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

That is the worst argument I have ever heard

i think what they were trying to say is:  How can something be "overpowered"  if it's accessible by anyone ?

i get what you're saying btw, about gunships , but i just personally  don't fear them nearly  as much as i do actual skilled pilots in literally any other type of ship ( particularly the fast ones ) .

So, imho, i just simply disagree with your proclamation that gunships are "overpowered" .

[Aries_cz]

Well, this turnaround is a disappointment.

I was looking forwards to having an extra objective for those weeks when I suck at ground PvP more than usual.

[AlkarMBar]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

... i just personally  don't fear them nearly  as much as i do actual skilled pilots in literally any other type of ship ( particularly the fast ones ) ....

That's the key. In GSF, you have to possibility to try the ships easily, without the need to create a whole new character and then you can see that that overpowered ship doesn't look that overpowered when it is you the one who pilot it.

In particular, with the gunships the key factor is usually fast ships with good pilots who keep the gunships far from trouble, because otherwise a gunship is a sitting duck.

The ship I am more afraid of is a scout with burst laser. A good pilot can destroy a fleet (I've seen pilots with more than 25 kills).

Every ship as a function and you can choose your ship according to the demands of the fight.

2 hours ago, sithBracer said:

...

By that logic, (incoming extreme example) if there was a class that can literally one shot other classes from 150m away and was completely ruining the game, you could literally say the same thing. Why are you asking for actual balance? Just play that class!! That is the beauty of ground PvP, play the class you want. I love ground PvP!!!

Yes, and that's why you have FoTM in ground PvP but you can see every ship in GSF: because there is no such overpower. 😄

[Stradlin]

33 minutes ago, AlkarMBar said:

 

Yes, and that's why you have FoTM in ground PvP but you can see every ship in GSF: because there is no such overpower. 😄

Everybody can enter every single match with 5 different ships if they so wish.. Experienced pilots who do multi shipping learn to figure out which ship the match needs the most and roll with it...

Way back when GSF was still kinda imbalanced you'd often see two walls of  bombers and gunships facing one another, as only good counter for a nested GS was to have a nest of your own.  This has gotten extremely rare since then, even high quality matches usually have more dogfighting than gunshipping now.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Stradlin

[sithBracer]

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

i think what they were trying to say is:  How can something be "overpowered"  if it's accessible by anyone ?

How were smash monkeys overpowered? How were 3.X hatred sins overpowered? How was PT overpowered? How were 4.X sorc heals overpowered? How is hatred so OP in PvE now that it is getting a nerf? Everyone has access to these classes no? Especially now with combat styles. This is not even an argument about class balance, this is just a deflection.

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

i get what you're saying btw, about gunships , but i just personally  don't fear them nearly  as much as i do actual skilled pilots in literally any other type of ship ( particularly the fast ones ) .

That is literally an game anywhere. If a person is skilled enough they can overcome the inherent weaknesses of their class and the strengths of an OP class. This doesn't change the fact that their class is weak or that a different class is OP. 

[Nee-Elder]

9 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

 This is not even an argument about class balance, this is just a deflection.

Not "deflecting" anything lol  i just simply disagree with your OPINION  that gunships are "overpowered" .    Once they are detected/identified, i personally don't have any trouble with beating gunships, just because they happen to have one parked uber-laser blast ( one shot strength ) .

Everything has strengths & weaknesses ( obviously ) .  And yes, in  ground  pvp  FOTM's  it can become much more pronounced & challenging to overcome.  But not so much in wild space with maneuvers & strategy & speed & debris los, etc.

Anyways, you seem rather upset about this particular debate, for some reason, so i'll just say we disagree and leave it at that.

[sithBracer]

16 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Not "deflecting" anything lol  i just simply disagree with your OPINION  that gunships are "overpowered" .    Once they are detected/identified, i personally don't have any trouble with beating gunships, just because they happen to have one parked uber-laser blast ( one shot strength ) .

Everything has strengths & weaknesses ( obviously ) .  And yes, in  ground  pvp  FOTM's  it can become much more pronounced & challenging to overcome.  But not so much in wild space with maneuvers & strategy & speed & debris los, etc.

Anyways, you seem rather upset about this particular debate, for some reason, so i'll just say we disagree and leave it at that.

If you don't believe they are overpowered, that's fine, you have a right to your own opinion. But saying "it isn't overpowered because anyone can play it" or "just play it yourself" is not a discussion on class balance, it is a deflection.

And I also just fly away from them and ignore them when I see them, especially when I play on my scout. The faster ships who can constantly keep up with me and constantly target me are the ones I fear more than gunships. Doesn't really change anything I said.

Also not upset at all. You don't believe that gunships are OP, just like I don't believe hatred is OP in PvE. We each have our own reasons based on our personal experience and data we have access to. No one is angry for disagreeing.

[DakhathKilrathi]

56 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

How were smash monkeys overpowered? How were 3.X hatred sins overpowered? How was PT overpowered? How were 4.X sorc heals overpowered? How is hatred so OP in PvE now that it is getting a nerf? Everyone has access to these classes no? Especially now with combat styles. This is not even an argument about class balance, this is just a deflection.

That is literally an game anywhere. If a person is skilled enough they can overcome the inherent weaknesses of their class and the strengths of an OP class. This doesn't change the fact that their class is weak or that a different class is OP. 

You guys aren't even arguing the same point anymore. 

Are gunships OP? 

lol no but if people think they are it means more free kills for me so keep pushing that angle I guess

Seriously though, no. Most of my top games are in a scout or a strike, and gunships are my favorite target to evaporate. They stop for you! Most of them only land like 30% of their shots! A bunch of them even run fortress shield so they just sit there and eat a ton of free hull damage from shield piercing. It's great. Here's a recent example where 2/3 of the other team was gunships. They melted.

I think you'll find that most of the best players in the game are not in a gunship as much as they are strikes, and there's a reason for that. Can I have the same kind of performance in a gunship? Yeah, sure, but it's harder to play as a solo carry ship outside of very specific circumstances in the current meta so I don't gravitate toward it nearly as much as I did pre-5.5. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi