How PVP in its current state is driving away new potential players

[Sappharan]

5 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

how is that different from 1 step forward, 2 steps back?

Math.  But, pedantry aside, it's the same concept.  It shouldn't matter how it is phrased.

[krackcommando]

10 hours ago, Sappharan said:

Math.  But, pedantry aside, it's the same concept.  It shouldn't matter how it is phrased.

one's a common idiom. the other is not. thought it sounded funny. maybe something about the water spiraling backward down under. 😁

Edited April 23, 2023 by krackcommando

[imaplainbagel]

Gear relatively doesn't matter to a point if you can play your class well in a pvp setting.  I've seen terrible players in 336+ gear and amazing players in 330 and less.  Just because someone has higher gear than you doesn't mean you automatically lose.  My frustration with pvp is having teammates that don't know how to play pvp or even their class in a pvp setting.  There are a ton of guides out there that can be super helpful if people would take the time to look at them.  The community in an of itself is much nicer than it used to be.  People can be helpful, but people need to want to be better to get better.  I don't pvp for the crappy looking gear that is offered this season especially, I do it because I enjoy it and it's the only reason I have stuck with SWTOR all of these years.

[StrikePrice]

19 hours ago, imaplainbagel said:

Gear relatively doesn't matter to a point if you can play your class well in a pvp setting.  I've seen terrible players in 336+ gear and amazing players in 330 and less.  Just because someone has higher gear than you doesn't mean you automatically lose.  My frustration with pvp is having teammates that don't know how to play pvp or even their class in a pvp setting.  There are a ton of guides out there that can be super helpful if people would take the time to look at them.  The community in an of itself is much nicer than it used to be.  People can be helpful, but people need to want to be better to get better.  I don't pvp for the crappy looking gear that is offered this season especially, I do it because I enjoy it and it's the only reason I have stuck with SWTOR all of these years.

The issue with PvP is that guides can only help you so far. You either have fight or flight. You either participate enough so that the game slows down for you enough where you can see what's happening and react to it or you quit. You have to be willing to be bad for a long time to be good. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by StrikePrice

[DeannaVoyager]

Gambling and gaming addiction start because of the satisfaction they get from winning. It feels good to win, obviously, so they want to experience it again. If people who come to try out pvp only get bulldozed by premades over and over again and they only lose matches, they won't get any satisfaction, they have no reason to stay and learn it to get better. So yes, the current state of pvp drives away new potential players. The playerbase doesn't get to grow, it will only get smaller. 

 

Spread the newbies evenly to random pug groups so that they have a chance to win, and some of them will enjoy it enough to continue and get better.

[Samcuu]

5 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Gambling and gaming addiction start because of the satisfaction they get from winning. It feels good to win, obviously, so they want to experience it again. If people who come to try out pvp only get bulldozed by premades over and over again and they only lose matches, they won't get any satisfaction, they have no reason to stay and learn it to get better. So yes, the current state of pvp drives away new potential players. The playerbase doesn't get to grow, it will only get smaller. 

 

Spread the newbies evenly to random pug groups so that they have a chance to win, and some of them will enjoy it enough to continue and get better.

Pvp is relatively the same game mode it was at launch. Many ppl learned the ins ans outs of pvp in this game over the last 11 years. Some were good immediately because they had mmo experience. Others had to take some beatings to learn. The only massive difference is the game population. Separating queues won't work due to the lower population. What the game is screaming out for is cross server queueing. Increase the ppl in the pvp queue pool by 3 to 4 times and give the matchmaking algorithm a chance to create more balanced matches. 

[krackcommando]

3 hours ago, Samcuu said:

What the game is screaming out for is cross server queueing. Increase the ppl in the pvp queue pool by 3 to 4 times and give the matchmaking algorithm a chance to create more balanced matches. 

I know I'm going around in circles with you on this, but where do you expect this magic population to come from? there aren't any servers to x-server with. there are just two in NA. that's it.

there are 3(?) in EU, and only one of those has a significant population. and the others are language specific anyway.

there's virtually nothing to x-server with at this point. game needs content to grow the population. so far, they seem to have actually removed content.

there are more ppl in pvp though. they're just...not there because they "want" to be. they're there b/c BW is "making" them do it for the seasonal prizes that they're entitled to.

it really is a royal mess. but as I've said elsewhere, I do enjoy that arenas pop and it's not all serious business.

[Samcuu]

14 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I know I'm going around in circles with you on this, but where do you expect this magic population to come from? there aren't any servers to x-server with. there are just two in NA. that's it.

there are 3(?) in EU, and only one of those has a significant population. and the others are language specific anyway.

there's virtually nothing to x-server with at this point. game needs content to grow the population. so far, they seem to have actually removed content.

there are more ppl in pvp though. they're just...not there because they "want" to be. they're there b/c BW is "making" them do it for the seasonal prizes that they're entitled to.

it really is a royal mess. but as I've said elsewhere, I do enjoy that arenas pop and it's not all serious business.

I only pvp one one NA server. But from what I understand the other two servers have active pvp. So at peak times if all servers are in queue doesn't it stand to reason that there will be 3 times the amount of ppl in queue or close to it? Not scientific by any means just logic. Also would get the queues popping at more hours during the day.

Steamcharts show an average of like 6k ppl playing swtor per day (that's just the average, at peak hours it jumps to around 9k). About half the player base use steam from the info I've gathered. So there are around 12k average players a day. 10% are pvpers. So you go from having maybe 400 ppl on a server who are avid pvpers to about 1200. That's my thought process anyways.

It's not perfect because some servers are more populated than others but it would be a boon to the pvp queue regardless. It's basically the way to artificially inflate ur population numbers. And again it would help matchmaking create better matches. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Samcuu

[krackcommando]

4 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I only pvp one one NA server. But from what I understand the other two servers have active pvp. So at peak times if all servers are in queue doesn't it stand to reason that there will be 3 times the amount of ppl in queue or close to it? Not scientific by any means just logic. Also would get the queues popping at more hours during the day.

Steamcharts show an average of like 6k ppl playing swtor per day (that's just the average, at peak hours it jumps to around 9k). About half the player base use steam from the info I've gathered. So there are around 12k average players a day. 10% are pvpers. So you go from having maybe 400 ppl on a server who are avid pvpers to about 1200. That's my thought process anyways.

It's not perfect because some servers are more populated than others but it would be a boon to the pvp queue regardless. It's basically the way to artificially inflate ur population numbers. And again it would help matchmaking create better matches. 

they're unique language queues. I'm fairly certain they have to keep them separate, so I don't think that's going to happen. the only place x-server helps is SS/SF. this assumes technological ability on the part of BW, of course. but the population on SF is fine. I stopped q'ing at 5am est last night. yeah. it was the same ~10 guys in arenas. the occasional WZ had a much larger cast of characters (I was chasing arena weekly before reset so didn't queue WZs much). population is not an issue on SF. skilled players who used to occupy the top tier of the game? yeah. they're more rare. they disappeared when RWZs went away. now they're scarce after RArenas.

there are actually plenty of ppl in pvp. and on SF, at least, premades are rare and small most of the time. I uploaded about a fourth of my matches last night. there's a few 2m's in arenas. there's one bully premade in a WZ. the rest are just 2 or 3 ppl. there's really and truly nothing wrong with the volume of players. what they do in WZs or the skill level...i mean. ok. yeah. but there's zero need for x-server from where I'm sitting. and the practical realities of implementing it now that there are only 2 servers at this point makes it pointless. maybe do something about class balance or literally anything other than CM with the time you'd spend on x-server at this point.

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Steamcharts show an average of like 6k ppl playing swtor per day (that's just the average, at peak hours it jumps to around 9k). About half the player base use steam from the info I've gathered. So there are around 12k average players a day

That’s not actually factually correct. I track this 3 times a day, every day for a project I’m doing. https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

Yes, steam numbers are currently climbing, which is good news for the game 👍

But here is where you’re off track. 

The game only gets daily numbers above 9k on the weekend, and usually Sunday, not Saturday. And it’s only been the last 2 weekends that it’s gone above 9k (actually hitting 10,367 last Sunday). The usual numbers for the week average around 4-6k a day. Except this week, which is averaging 7-8k.

Now you’re also making an assumption that half the players use steam. Where are you getting that info from? BioWare don’t publicly show non steam numbers & I can find no BioWare info that states half the players use steam. For all we know, it could be a lot more or lot less than you’re suggesting. 

Also, unless you’re a BioWare employee, you’d have no idea how many people PvP. You said 10% PvP, but it could be as high as 60% or as low as 1%. Once again you’re making numbers up to support your opinions. 

It’s fine to have opinions, we all do. Just don’t try and dress them up as facts 👍

Edited April 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

there's zero need for x-server from where I'm sitting. and the practical realities of implementing it now that there are only 2 servers at this point makes it pointless

BioWare are in the process of moving the current server setup to AWS (Amazon Web Services). https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20230330

When they do this, it will be much easier to do an xserver setup if they choose because each AWS is a virtual server setup. Doing a xserver would just mean setting up another instance that’s seperate. It wouldn’t be hard to do.

And depending on time of day & region, it’s possible your server instance may even in a different physical location at different times of the day (if that’s how they choose to do it). I expect we’ll find out about the plans during the live stream on the 3rd May https://forums.swtor.com/topic/928931-game-update-73-livestream-announcement/

[krackcommando]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

BioWare are in the process of moving the current server setup to AWS (Amazon Web Services). https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20230330

When they do this, it will be much easier to do an xserver setup if they choose because each AWS is a virtual server setup. Doing a xserver would just mean setting up another instance that’s seperate. It wouldn’t be hard to do.

And depending on time of day & region, it’s possible your server instance may even in a different physical location at different times of the day (if that’s how they choose to do it). I expect we’ll find out about the plans during the live stream on the 3rd May https://forums.swtor.com/topic/928931-game-update-73-livestream-announcement/

pardon my skepticism and technological ignorance, but how is that going to make playing an arena from the east coast US with another player in AU and another player in France a feasible reality? you still have to communicate the same information to drastically different locales.

I do understand how streaming works by loading the same content in a dozen different servers around the <whatever> so that you draw from the closest/straightest line. and that you could create an instance that's hosted "close" to the clients. but I don't see how AWS can fix the fact that 4 of the 8 available players are halfway around the world from each other.

hence, it's only useful for the two NA servers b/c the players are close and are not restricted to specific language requirements?

Edited April 26, 2023 by krackcommando

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

pardon my skepticism and technological ignorance, but how is that going to make playing an arena from the east coast US with another player in AU and another player in France a feasible reality? you still have to communicate the same information to drastically different locales.

I do understand how streaming works by loading the same content in a dozen different servers around the <whatever> so that you draw from the closest/straightest line. and that you could create an instance that's hosted "close" to the clients. but I don't see how AWS can fix the fact that 4 of the 8 available players are halfway around the world from each other.

hence, it's only useful for the two NA servers b/c the players are close and are not restricted to specific language requirements?

I never said it would be ideal. Just that they were in the process of migrating us to AWS.

If they go ahead with it, the person closest to the server instance will have the advantage, the same as they do now.

And unless they fix those positions permanently, you may find your ping is different each time you pvp’d, regardless if it is cross server or not.

If that’s the case, then BioWare may not see cross server as a performance hurdle technically. They may not see language as a barrier either 🤷🏻‍♀️.

We’ll have to wait till the 3rd May & see what they announce. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[krackcommando]

27 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

If they go ahead with it, the person closest to the server instance will have the advantage, the same as they do now.

oh. I do like the idea of AWS and virtual servers so that currently remote players can get instances with shorter pings. I just cannot get my head around how that's going to help x-server as everyone is already sitting on one or two servers in the respective areas/time zones closest to them.

 

[Varcado]

"Poor matchmaking, The game is throwing new players against veteran ranked sweats"

 

They need to implement very long queue times for big premades if they are gonna match them against casuals.

[septru]

51 minutes ago, Varcado said:

They need to implement very long queue times for big premades if they are gonna match them against casuals.

It's posts like this that make people think the forums are a joke. 

 

They literally have made que times long for premades. I'm also guessing based on your post that you don't actually que in a premade. So how would you know how long the que time for premades is? 

 

As someone who ques with friends, I can tell you that my que times are usually 15+ minutes, for a 10 minute warzone. It's gotten so bad recently that I've started telling my friends "no" when they ask to PvP together. 

[krackcommando]

7 minutes ago, septru said:

It's gotten so bad recently that I've started telling my friends "no" when they ask to PvP together. 

both of them? 😁

[VegaMist]

From my experience, queue times increased for solo as well. Doesn't feel like it improved matchmaking much - just takes longer to get into the match.

I've also seen increased number of low-geared players - 320 I can take, but 250 is a bit too low. Maybe players should get an in-game mail once they reach 80 which would congratulate them on such important milestone and give them the basics about lvl 80 gearing since there seem to be a number of people who don't research guides.

[krackcommando]

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

I've also seen increased number of low-geared players - 320 I can take, but 250 is a bit too low. Maybe players should get an in-game mail once they reach 80 which would congratulate them on such important milestone and give them the basics about lvl 80 gearing since there seem to be a number of people who don't research guides.

asking players to read is a bit much in this day and age of entitlement and institutionalized indemnity to failure.

but BW has made gearing so ridiculously convoluted that ofc players show up undergeared.

I regularly see ppl in arenas with 326 rating. I inspect them, and they have full thysrian (pvp) purples on. all of which are the same 326 rating. that means they are wasting comms, frags, and time. although they're doing what seems logical, I try to explain to them in text 30s before the gates drop that they need to concentrate on leveling just one piece to 332 asap then taking it to hyde and zeek for mods they can buy with credits. google hyde and zeek. and maybe I type all of that in before the gate drops. it's really a cluster bleep for no other reason than BW designed a horribly convoluted and unintuitive gear system.

[Prapcaster]

6 hours ago, krackcommando said:

asking players to read is a bit much in this day and age of entitlement and institutionalized indemnity to failure.

but BW has made gearing so ridiculously convoluted that ofc players show up undergeared.

I regularly see ppl in arenas with 326 rating. I inspect them, and they have full thysrian (pvp) purples on. all of which are the same 326 rating. that means they are wasting comms, frags, and time. although they're doing what seems logical, I try to explain to them in text 30s before the gates drop that they need to concentrate on leveling just one piece to 332 asap then taking it to hyde and zeek for mods they can buy with credits. google hyde and zeek. and maybe I type all of that in before the gate drops. it's really a cluster bleep for no other reason than BW designed a horribly convoluted and unintuitive gear system.

I don't understand why they don't just put the mod vendor either by the pvp vendor or combine them into one. These destructing gear missions from hyde and zeke are complete nonsense that does nothing but waste your time. It feels like they're just adding all these gear runarounds as ways to confuse new players. I constantly see people begging on fleet for someone to tell them how to gear because there's zero help for them and the "content creators" gearing guides just confuse them even more because they're always extremely long winded instead of just telling them to go from point A to point B.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Prapcaster

[Varcado]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:06 PM, septru said:

It's posts like this that make people think the forums are a joke. 

 

They literally have made que times long for premades. I'm also guessing based on your post that you don't actually que in a premade. So how would you know how long the que time for premades is? 

 

As someone who ques with friends, I can tell you that my que times are usually 15+ minutes, for a 10 minute warzone. It's gotten so bad recently that I've started telling my friends "no" when they ask to PvP together. 

yea well its not working at all. multiple times Ive ran into the same group back to back after only waiting like 5-8 minutes. Groups with 4+ should have a penalty to go in and ruins wz for casuals.

[septru]

10 hours ago, Varcado said:

Grouping [up]... should have a penalty

I guess we're just saying the quiet part out loud these days. 😂

Edited April 28, 2023 by septru

[Prapcaster]

13 hours ago, Varcado said:

yea well its not working at all. multiple times Ive ran into the same group back to back after only waiting like 5-8 minutes. Groups with 4+ should have a penalty to go in and ruins wz for casuals.

Do you understand what an mmo is?

[elimatorxv]

i still like lowbie bracket and mid bracket pvp, but the main thing i hate is the obnoxious amount of roots/slows dont believe me? be the ball carrier in huttball and see for yourself. 

[krackcommando]

51 minutes ago, elimatorxv said:

i still like lowbie bracket and mid bracket pvp, but the main thing i hate is the obnoxious amount of roots/slows dont believe me? be the ball carrier in huttball and see for yourself. 

i was with you until you mentioned HB. no offense, but being the ball carrier in HB is insignificant to the balance of the game.

to the larger point though, the slows need to be reduced in percentage and put on their own cd (not side effects of other abilities like blazing bolts or something). both have been mentioned by players far better than me.