This Game Suffers Mainly Because of the Community

[SithHuntingX]

So, this is really my first time ever creating a thread on the forums in all my years of playing this game, and I may not word this exactly how my brain wants to articulate this, but I've been thinking about doing this for a long while now so I'm going to give this a shot.

 

I'm sure someone's already spoken up about this, but just in case nobody has yet, or this needs re-emphasis, I believe this game suffers more from the established player community than actual content itself. In other words, there's some "gatekeeping" issues that keep this game from feeling like an actual MMO.

 

To elaborate, I understand that there's some serious issues going on from the content side of things. From class metas, to delayed endgame content that was originally promised to go live day of "expansion", etc.; however, MMOs only go as far as the community it houses. Take PvP for example, and the constant toxicity that goes on in that branch of content.

 

Whether you're doing warzones, or ranked arenas, there's no shortage of toxicity coming from certain players (sometimes a group of players) that keeps the average playerbase away. Making them feel unwanted, that they can't get better or enjoy the same content that they pay equal amount of money for as the rest of their fellow players (toxic or otherwise). This is especially true in ranked (though things have slightly gotten better in that area lately, I admit).

 

When it comes to PvE, I've seen endless amounts of instances where players trying to get into raiding aren't welcomed in that side of the community because raid groups / guilds allegedly can't be bothered to teach new folks. Which I find to be ironic considering the fact that they themselves didn't start out knowing every raid like the backs of their own hands.

 

Even RP content, which used to be a focal point for majority of the community way back in the day, suffers from "gatekeeping". Not every character is going to be flushed out, much less will they always be lore compliant with the game. Some follow the general lore of Star Wars, which you would think is okay. If something doesn't sound right with their character, they get flamed or trolled about it instead of pulled to the side & talked about what can improve.

 

At the end of the day, content may be slow, but I feel like this game still has plenty to enjoy but is ultimately hurting because the community of players aren't as inclusive or welcoming as they should be. Like c'mon bruh, our community isn't all that big as it is, why divide & shorten it even further by being so negative and toxic?

[galsharpe]

Almost all of the older games are like this these days. People that have been playing for a number of years seem to think everyone is somehow born with the knowledge they have learned over all those years and seem more interested in spewing abuse for someone not being "up to their standards" than just enjoying themselves. They greatly discourage new players then bemoan the fact their game is "dying."

 

The only "older" game I've found this past 2 years where there still is a community that has a decent population of players that are inclusive and will gladly help and teach is FFXIV. This is largely because the devs pay close attention to it and being hateful will earn you a ban surprisingly quickly. I have been playing SWTOR for a few weeks now and just stick to playing/discovering things on my own. I don't do PVP precisely because it's always full of hateful toxicity in every game. If you PVE only you'll experience a lot less of it, anywhere.

 

And these guilds/community where the nice people still are? Those people are at least half "older" gamers. I myself don't consider people in their early 40's to be "older" but I know the younger you are, the older that seems. Those people remember how gaming used to be and are still the same people they were when games like this first came out.

Edited July 15, 2022 by galsharpe

[SithHuntingX]

Almost all of the older games are like this these days. People that have been playing for a number of years seem to think everyone is somehow born with the knowledge they have learned over all those years and seem more interested in spewing abuse for someone not being "up to their standards" than just enjoying themselves. They greatly discourage new players then bemoan the fact their game is "dying."

 

The only "older" game I've found this past 2 years where there still is a community that has a decent population of players that are inclusive and will gladly help and teach is FFXIV. I have been playing SWTOR for a few weeks now and just stick to playing/discovering things on my own. I don't do PVP precisely because it's always full of hateful toxicity in every game. If you PVE only you'll experience a lot less of it, anywhere.

 

And these guilds/community where the nice people still are? Those people are at least half "older" gamers. I myself don't consider people in their early 40's to be "older" but I know the younger you are, the older that seems. Those people remember how gaming used to be and are still the same people they were when games like this first came out.

 

I definitely agree about FFXIV, I play that game on a religious basis. I would go as far as to use that game and its current success as a sort of standard for how MMOs should be; that said, FFXIV has a LOT more content, fun and diverse, to offer as opposed to SWTOR. Which will in turn keep the playerbase happy on a majority basis, so I didn't think it a fair comparison knowing the lack of care this game gets from Bioware & EA.

 

But I can definitely say SWTOR's community could learn a lot from FFXIV's community in terms of how to promote a welcoming atmosphere.

[TUXs]

Although I do agree with your points about toxic players being horrible for the game, I also disagree that this is somehow the consumers fault.

 

SWTOR suffers from a lack of care from the developers. 7.0 has driven off and upset a large number of players due to its incomplete release and broken promises, then add in the horrible backwards *** gearing system the developers implimented, followed by the news that they're moving backwards even further with 7.1 and how the gear drops will work with that operation...you couldn't devise a more damaging system if you tried.

 

I am always willing to help new players and try to create a better community...but there's nothing I can do, nothing WE can do, to pretend that 7.0 and 7.1 are somehow 'okay'...they're not. Players are angry, upset and frustrated, as they should be. Players are frustrated because they love this game and wanted it to be better...I can't blame them.

 

I accept no fault for how the community is...it's been created and fed by Bioware, not me. Put the blame where it belongs.

[ZUHFB]

But I can definitely say SWTOR's community could learn a lot from FFXIV's community in terms of how to promote a welcoming atmosphere.

 

Honestly I've had the exact opposite happen, maybe you don't realize it but a "Hello" macro at the start of a dungeon or trial isn't really a welcoming atmosphere? Or at least to me it isn't. There are more than enough people not willing to teach you anything, mostly because it's almost impossible to die. Even if you somehow manage to fail everything or just fall of, nobody comments on that - but you want to know why? Because they actually have to fear a ban! It's just as toxic and elitist as every other MMO out there, you just have to look a bit deeper. Moderation never helps anything, maybe you don't feel as bad afterwards, but then it's just your own ignorance that you don't want to realize it.

 

Probably very unpopular opinion, but it's true nevertheless.

[SithHuntingX]

Although I do agree with your points about toxic players being horrible for the game, I also disagree that this is somehow the consumers fault.

 

SWTOR suffers from a lack of care from the developers. 7.0 has driven off and upset a large number of players due to its incomplete release and broken promises, then add in the horrible backwards *** gearing system the developers implimented, followed by the news that they're moving backwards even further with 7.1 and how the gear drops will work with that operation...you couldn't devise a more damaging system if you tried.

 

I am always willing to help new players and try to create a better community...but there's nothing I can do, nothing WE can do, to pretend that 7.0 and 7.1 are somehow 'okay'...they're not. Players are angry, upset and frustrated, as they should be. Players are frustrated because they love this game and wanted it to be better...I can't blame them.

 

I accept no fault for how the community is...it's been created and fed by Bioware, not me. Put the blame where it belongs.

 

I agree that there's several issues with the current state of the game, and even more so I can understand how the general playerbase is frustrated with how things are given that the potential for SWTOR is so high. I'm not saying the developers have no fault (part to play) in how the community is behaving, but at the same time we can't ignore the fact that the general population makes things even worse with their mannerisms.

[Screaming_Ziva]

When it comes to PvE, I've seen endless amounts of instances where players trying to get into raiding aren't welcomed in that side of the community because raid groups / guilds allegedly can't be bothered to teach new folks. Which I find to be ironic considering the fact that they themselves didn't start out knowing every raid like the backs of their own hands.

If you are in a guild that won't teach ops (or help with anything for that matter), you're in the wrong guild. There are many guilds out there that have "newbie" night ops for people to learn them. The guilds will then take the time to teach new members the op.

[phalczen]

I agree that the absence of content production by the development team is not an excuse or justification for customers to be toxic. Toxicity within culture has been increasing globally for years, not just within the SWTOR pvp or master-mode operations community. I'm not going to go into the reasons here. However, toxicity of the customer base cannot explain why, for example, a feature described a year ago and planned for launch in December 2021 took another 2.5 months to launch after the already delayed launch. It cannot explain why, for example, a daily area advertised as being part of the launch still does not have a firm go-live date.

[TUXs]

I agree that there's several issues with the current state of the game, and even more so I can understand how the general playerbase is frustrated with how things are given that the potential for SWTOR is so high. I'm not saying the developers have no fault (part to play) in how the community is behaving, but at the same time we can't ignore the fact that the general population makes things even worse with their mannerisms.

 

And I also agree with you. I believe that some of the current toxicity from players is because there are fewer believers amongst us as well who will stand up and disagree with the toxic people. In the past, for every toxic player in chat, there were at least a few good and hopeful people who would speak up, publicly, to disagree and defend the game. Those people are who we're currently missing. I've just noticed that there's very little "hope" and "excitement" left in players lately. There are some, and THANK YOU to those who speak up, it just seems like a cloud has washed over this game since 7.0's failures. It's sad to see.

[hillerbees]

While I agree that there is some toxicity in the game by and large I find players to be decent enough.

 

I don't think any player behaviour can excuse the lack of flow of content though.

 

I do know Bioware are hiring new staff for SWTOR but none of the devs have come out and said this is the reason for the slow rate of new things to do in the game.

 

I find that the best way to deal with toxicity is to call it out in game and type supportive or positive messages where I can. If enough follow suit the toxic player loses their power.

[Keelaso]

I don't know. Blaming customers for the faults of a product seems like a pretty weak cop out. Edited July 15, 2022 by Keelaso

[SithHuntingX]

I don't know. Blaming customers for the faults of a product seems like a pretty weak cop out.

 

This isn't about putting blame solely on one side or the other. We as a community can agree that Bioware share responsibility for why things are the way they are today in 2022. However, as someone said a few comments ago, lack of content isn't an excuse for toxicity to reign through in a game we all play equally. That and we've been getting on the butts of the developers for months now. Years, even. Players hold blame for creating a diverse, unwelcoming environment; if only partially. To deny that would be ignorant.

[Keelaso]

This isn't about putting blame solely on one side or the other. We as a community can agree that Bioware share responsibility for why things are the way they are today in 2022. However, as someone said a few comments ago, lack of content isn't an excuse for toxicity to reign through in a game we all play equally. That and we've been getting on the butts of the developers for months now. Years, even. Players hold blame for creating a diverse, unwelcoming environment; if only partially. To deny that would be ignorant.

 

Toxicity and attitude is usually a direct reflection of leadership. I'll just leave it at that. BW can fix it anytime they want to. If they want to.

[SithHuntingX]

Blaming the player base instead of the developers. Typical Bioware apologist. I don't know if you've been playing for long but from 1.0 to about 5.0. The flow of content was staggering. We had Makeb, SoR, Kotfe, and Kotet all in the span of about 5-6 years. Since 6.0, it now takes a whole year for updates and years for a paltry expansion. Onslaught came out in 2019 and was about 3 hours long in story. THREE YEARS LATER....Legacy of the Sith comes out and we got less than ONE HOUR of story content. I don't want to hear about Covid being the reason cause all these people were working from home. Complete BS excuse. Add to that loads of bugs, unbalanced level synch, a trash gearing system which has contributed to the toxicity and predatory raiding scene as you mentioned, and so much more. So no it's not the community. It is the Developers themselves. Cause now it's got people like me angry as hell cause this game is now in survival mode when EA at one point gave them a blank check and they squandered it. Now I bet EA gives Bioware the minimum amount of money to run this game. Complete and utter wasted potential...

 

So me wanting to hold playerbase accountable for player-related issues is me being a "Bioware apologist"?

[SithHuntingX]

Toxicity and attitude is usually a direct reflection of leadership. I'll just leave it at that. BW can fix it anytime they want to. If they want to.

 

Why do we have to wait for Bioware to fix an issue that starts with the players? Let's speak hypothetical for a second. Say Bioware and EA finally decide to listen to us players, implement the changes and fixes we've all been asking for and then some. The game itself becomes awesome, full of content that has something for everybody, but the player community is still toxic. Is still unwelcoming.

 

Can look at FFXIV as an example, or WOW when it was it its prime. The inclusive, positive atmosphere that the players themselves established into the culture is what highlights such good content, would you not agree?

[aerockyul]

SWTOR suffers from a lack of care from the developers. 7.0 has driven off and upset a large number of players due to its incomplete release and broken promises, then add in the horrible backwards *** gearing system the developers implimented, followed by the news that they're moving backwards even further with 7.1 and how the gear drops will work with that operation...you couldn't devise a more damaging system if you tried.

 

I am always willing to help new players and try to create a better community...but there's nothing I can do, nothing WE can do, to pretend that 7.0 and 7.1 are somehow 'okay'...they're not. Players are angry, upset and frustrated, as they should be. Players are frustrated because they love this game and wanted it to be better...I can't blame them.

 

I accept no fault for how the community is...it's been created and fed by Bioware, not me. Put the blame where it belongs.

 

TUXs very succinctly put the exact reason I cancelled my sub for the first time since launch. I've been perfectly fine (not thrilled, but fine) with the game and the issues we've all experienced over 10 years, but gearing in 7.0 broke my will to go on, even if I were to just bother gearing my main. I would take any iteration of gearing from 4.0 to 6.0, with all their warts, over 7.0, to come back and continue subbing. As it is I lost touch with an outstanding raiding community and an amazing guild that I was honored to work for because I was unwilling to grind out the obtuse gearing system for even one of my many alts. (I have never and will never farm gear by doing one boss (or in 7.0's case, two bosses) ad nauseum until BW shuts the farm down, only to move onto the next nauseating farm)

It really was that simple. I also agreed with Andressan's (sp) post that there was a lot I was willing to put up with because of my connection with BW's past and the 1-50 stories. Gear really is the only reason I said enough is enough.

 

I can't lay the blame at the feet of the players who, despite many of their attitudes, are paying for the game I loved, too. I used to be someone more willing to blame the players and not the company, but I did finally hit that realization point that many come to (many did sooner than others) about BW's role in the game's decline with 7.0

[Aghasett]

I don't know. Blaming customers for the faults of a product seems like a pretty weak cop out.

 

It's not just weak it's nonsensical.

[SithHuntingX]

It's not just weak it's nonsensical.

 

As I've said numerous times throughout this thread, I'm not absolving Bioware and EA's role in creating the poor state the game is in.

[Keelaso]

Why do we have to wait for Bioware to fix an issue that starts with the players? Let's speak hypothetical for a second. Say Bioware and EA finally decide to listen to us players, implement the changes and fixes we've all been asking for and then some. The game itself becomes awesome, full of content that has something for everybody, but the player community is still toxic. Is still unwelcoming.

 

Can look at FFXIV as an example, or WOW when it was it its prime. The inclusive, positive atmosphere that the players themselves established into the culture is what highlights such good content, would you not agree?

 

Okay, I'll play along. I would not agree. BW is responsible for literally everything that happens with their product. All the praise and all the criticism. Will the community get credit when things are going well ? of course not. They get every inch of the credit due to taking the risk involved. They have the ownership over it. And therefore all the rewards and consequences belong to them.

 

My advice is they should take extreme ownership for the problems. Admit mistakes and wrong doings with a serious plan to fix the problems. No one really wants a bunch of lip service either. People will see real solutions and action. Even if the road is rocky on the way they will begin to earn trust and respect from those that would support them.

 

But that is one persons opinion and I expect a lot out of people in general so there is that. Their ego will be devastated and they will need to humble themselves but it's not too late. It never is. They 100% created the problem and it is 100% their responsibility to fix it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Keelaso

[Ardrossan]

As I've said numerous times throughout this thread, I'm not absolving Bioware and EA's role in creating the poor state the game is in.

 

You are though. It's in your title: the game suffers mainly because of the community. And the feedback you have gotten, from players who have been here for a long time, many since launch, is that no, it is not mainly, mostly or even somewhat because of the community, it's squarely on Bioware and the way they run things.

 

To be precise, it is not just the lack of content or the changes to gearing and UI or crafting being dead or the game economy imploding--those all contribute, certainly, but it is mainly the way they communicate, or don't communicate, that causes so much frustration, which bleeds into the game as toxicity.

 

Also

 

Why do we have to wait for Bioware to fix an issue that starts with the players? Let's speak hypothetical for a second. Say Bioware and EA finally decide to listen to us players, implement the changes and fixes we've all been asking for and then some. The game itself becomes awesome, full of content that has something for everybody, but the player community is still toxic. Is still unwelcoming.

 

OK. Hypothetically, do you think making a thread blaming the state of the game on toxic players because of a couple bad experiences you had will do anything to deter said toxicity in the future? At all? Do you think that there is anything we as a forum can do to reduce toxicity under the status quo, BW continuing to do nothing to address the root causes from their end? If so, what? Be specific.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Ardrossan

[fushnchips]

The game is done anyway look at 7.0 how delayed things are they couldn't get an expansion out and we are still waiting almost 5 months later for the operation how sad is this.

 

The entire higher end of Bioware Austin are to blame and should be made an example of they have let down an entire community not just with bad content cycles but how they refuse and allow really toxic in game tactics.

 

As someone else said they should take a page out of the FFXIV stance on toxic stuff and yes it works very well yes they have a toxic high end raiding environment but the pressure is on and that happens but in basic game play it shouldn't be tolerated.

[Thepyrethatburns]

To the OP:

 

I guess I'm not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish. Moving beyond what everyone else has said about blaming the customer base for the state of the game and ignoring both in-game and IRL reasons for the salt mine that you say the game community is, what is the goal here?

 

Is there a suggestion or course of action coming other than "let's play nice" or is this meant mainly to harangue what's left of the community or is this just you venting because you got stomped in a Warzone/was kicked from a group?

 

I'm honestly kind of curious as to what the end goal is here.

 

Can look at FFXIV as an example, or WOW when it was it its <b> prime.</b> The inclusive, positive atmosphere that the players themselves established into the culture is what highlights such good content, would you not agree?

 

Sidenote: You've undermined your argument here. This game was also inclusive and positive IN IT'S PRIME as well. If it isn't inclusive and positive now, well......

Edited July 17, 2022 by Thepyrethatburns

[Bigfallenstar]

You are though. It's in your title: the game suffers mainly because of the community. And the feedback you have gotten, from players who have been here for a long time, many since launch, is that no, it is not mainly, mostly or even somewhat because of the community, it's squarely on Bioware and the way they run things.

 

To be precise, it is not just the lack of content or the changes to gearing and UI or crafting being dead or the game economy imploding--those all contribute, certainly, but it is mainly the way they communicate, or don't communicate, that causes so much frustration, which bleeds into the game as toxicity.

 

Also

 

 

 

OK. Hypothetically, do you think making a thread blaming the state of the game on toxic players because of a couple bad experiences you had will do anything to deter said toxicity in the future? At all? Do you think that there is anything we as a forum can do to reduce toxicity under the status quo, BW continuing to do nothing to address the root causes from their end? If so, what? Be specific.

 

 

So how is Bioware suppose to listen to that many people with different views? Let's take the ui for example. Some loved it, others hated it. Is Bioware suppose to change it because a few people got up in arms about it? They can't listen to every single voice out there. Things wouldn't get done if they tried to appease everyone.

 

And the community is a bit at fault for how they handle themselves. How many times have we've heard people say "Bioware fix/change this or I'm leaving"? Or "Bioware is a **** company for x reasons" When you have people like that, I could understand why Bioware wouldn't listen to them. They're not making suggestions to improve the game, they're making demands so the game caters to them.

[Toraak]

Why do we have to wait for Bioware to fix an issue that starts with the players? Let's speak hypothetical for a second. Say Bioware and EA finally decide to listen to us players, implement the changes and fixes we've all been asking for and then some. The game itself becomes awesome, full of content that has something for everybody, but the player community is still toxic. Is still unwelcoming.

 

Can look at FFXIV as an example, or WOW when it was it its prime. The inclusive, positive atmosphere that the players themselves established into the culture is what highlights such good content, would you not agree?

 

WoW's community was far more toxic then Swtor's ever was. I can't speak for FFXIV, since I didn't play it, but WoW was horrible for it's community.

[DeannaVoyager]

So how is Bioware suppose to listen to that many people with different views? Let's take the ui for example. Some loved it, others hated it. Is Bioware suppose to change it because a few people got up in arms about it? They can't listen to every single voice out there. Things wouldn't get done if they tried to appease everyone.

 

Changes to UI started with the daily ad pop up. A change no-one asked for and no-one liked. It also doesn't stay where I put it most of the times, so when I log in, I now need to do two extra clicks before I get to play:

 

1) reload my UI to get the ad pop up where I want it, not where BW wants it.

2) minimize it

 

At 7.0 they also changed the character / inventory screen. They replaced relevant info (such as stats) with a massive window of my character's portrait (which is totally irrelevant), where I need to click "details" if I want to see my stats. WHY? Role players and space barbie players might have enjoyed the new huge portrait of their characters, but the rest of us, the people who actually play the game did not ask for the change and do not like it. On top of that the inventory was horrible at the beginning. They fixed some of it, but it's still ugly. It also doesn't match the rest of the UI. Because it blocks most of the screen it's now really difficult to have multiple windows open (such as mail or cargo). The funcionality is half of what it used to be. The loadout tab is bad because you can't delete or move them around. It also doesn't properly guide new players on how to use it.

 

We lost special abilities of some cartel market companions (Akk Dog and Nexu) because there is no tab for companion abilities anymore. You think all the people who bought those cartel market items with real money "love" the new UI that made their companions lose their fun special abilities?

 

On some occasions you can't close the character sheet / inventory with Esc. Yes, I bet there are plenty of people who "love" the new UI...

 

I get what you mean by different people liking different things, I really do. But if you use examples to underline your point, you should probably pick a better one. No-one asked the UI to be changed, and no-one I know likes the new one. It wouldn't be that bad if it at least had the same functionality as the old one did, but currently it's semi-broken and mostly an annoyance, not an improvement.