Am I the only one who wants MMOs to move away from raids, dungeons, and holy trinity?

[Falensawino]

mmos have an aging population issue, nobody wants to play these types of games anymore

 

 

I'm not complaining, I wish we had better massively multiplayer options too. maybe when mmo creators stop trying to chase the same wow/everquest raider demographic, we might just get a new type of mmo genre that doesn't have tank/heal/dps holy trinity or raids, dungeons as the main selling point.

 

The genre, to stay massive and stay multiplayer, needs some form cooperative group content. We get that, but why does it always have to be only the dungeon or the raid, and why does it always have to follow the trinity.

 

If we could be done ONLY seeking the same core audience who've played the same type of multiplayer game since its inception. Forcing every generation of gamer picking up mmorpgs for the first time, and consequently subjected generations to the same game invented at time when technology allowed for nothing else. We might finally get some massively multiplayer experiences worth while for newer generation of folks. Instead of the same people who for 3 decades have just played what they are used to because that's what all mmorpgs have had in the past. accepted this malarkey way to play as the defacto standard for all MMOs.

 

and devs have been too scared to experiment outside the cookie cutter raid, dungeon, holy trinity games people have consitently passed up for fortnite and league of legends. and publishers dont want to risk shareholder returns and gamble on a new idea without proven returns on investment. a word on this, Ninja, the fortnite streamer most of the non-boomers have heard about: (click spoiler)

actually used to play SWTOR with us and streamed it on twitch. The enterprising youth, quickly ditched us and moved to a different game and just in time to hit it big. He's gone, but we still have gems like this on his official youtube page:

[youtube.com]

 

 

at somepoint in this thread people will bring up Anthem and trying to chase Destiny's quasi-massive online looter as a case study of trying to venture away from the same old same old formula. I don't play the Destiny games either, so that type of looter shooter has never been my thing, for 7 years I watched people lose their way to Destiny, but I remained and didn't follow friends off a bridge.

 

The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented, legacy support for this old way to mmprg can still exist in the same game that offers newer, revised formulas for group coop play.

 

I'll preface this thread by ending with an apology for having to use a person's age as an issue in game design. Repeatedly using as a boogey man in this thread to cement the point that the MMORPG genre is getting stale, not just stale and incapable of evolving, but old and outdated. It looks like it's being done at the expensive of a loyal population of the game's playerbase, sorry I worded stuff this way, I needed to get a point across. I mean no disrespect. Nobody deserves any lip from me for choosing star wars over warcraft, or elder scrolls, or whatever else there was. Thank you for being here, you're appreciated here. May the Fourth be with you.

 

with Wow subscriber numbers still leading the genre, this game not been shutdown, TESO having multi week free play event promotions on steam, it looks like the cookie cutter MMORPG experience is going to sit around and wait a while lot longer before people finally have had enough with the genre altogether and drop it for good.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Falensawino

[Falensawino]

This thread came to be in a thread about classes not parsing high enough after 7.0 patch to even be allowed in operations anymore.

 

I brought up my angle that we shouldn't even bother about flavor of the month anymore, it's always going to happen because of how the whole thing is designed from the ground up. We should look past the current and look to the future.

 

I was told to fart off and make my own thread. Please leave our spread sheet simulator, 1980s 40+ year old text-based raid design, parser discussion alone. ... Britney alone.

 

 

That thread was called: 7.0 Class Balance is Poor

mmorpgs are probably one of the slowest to evolve genres in the past 25 years because of the raid and trinity.

 

pvp'ers in an mmorpgs get second hand second servings of a game because the game's main systems were developed around and decided by the raid and trinity

 

 

two sets of quoted replies by Xhuuyaa and gregordunbar go here, they are too long to quote in full, please see the linked discussion here for the quotes: swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=10024793#post10024793

 

it's almost like the mmorpg genre needs to ditch the raid and trinity so it can be an actual game instead of a spreadsheet sim.

 

every developer that has ever attempted to make a mmorpg has used those 'gold standards' because that's what's required on the back of the box to be considered an mmorpg these days

 

It's nothing but a bulletpoint and the entire game is developed and designed around that bulletpoint. It's all shoehorned to fit a stupid bulletpoint. It's ludicrious speed that raids still pass as an acceptable game mode in 2022

 

So this thread was coming, and it's finally here. I really hope people can see this as a discussion of what they really want to see out of mmos in a near future.

 

How we can influence the way future mmos are made.

 

Preferabbly before they just rinse and repeat, copy and paste previous generations of World of Warcraft, Everquest, Ultimate Online, their copies and hell spawn people still play today.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Falensawino

[sGroggy]

non-boomers

Feeling triggered.

 

I'll prefice this thread by ending with an apology for having to use a person's age as an issue in game design

*calms somewhat down again*

[JediQuaker]

So, are you suggesting SWTOR should be more like Super Mario Bros, or is that too old as well?

 

It's funny that many of the same people who suggest that a 10 year old game is 'old' and/or 'stale', will get together with their buddies to play Poker, Chess, Baseball, etc, etc.😂

Edited April 29, 2022 by JediQuaker

[Chewiejdh]

So, then what would be your suggestion?

 

Could it be that the actual idea of an MMO (that being a multitude of people all playing the same game in the same world at the same time on the same screen) would eventually lead to the raiding scenario?

 

Most every single-player game has a set piece that the player has to attack/conquer/etc. How would one do that in a game with thousands of players at a time?

 

I am not coming down on you or the question, truly curious as to what you envision.

[RikuvonDrake]

there are probably a thousand of categories of games and loads of games in each category, if you want a game from Category A to be more like a Category B game, it can be solved by devs changing the entire game genre, or in an easier way, by you changing the game you play to something more fitting for your preferences

 

or, in simpler terms, if you want a pizza buy that, don't buy a burger and complain its not a pizza

Edited April 29, 2022 by RikuvonDrake

[DeannaVoyager]

mmos have an aging population issue, nobody wants to play these types of games anymore

 

Yet here we are, including you.

 

there are probably a thousand of categories of games and loads of games in each category, if you want a game from Category A to be more like a Category B game, it can be solved by devs changing the entire game genre, or in an easier way, by you changing the game you play to something more fitting for your preferences

 

or, in simpler terms, if you want a pizza buy that, don't buy a burger and complain its not a pizza

 

^^ This.

[Zorii_Bliss]

Unnecessary insults aside (how old are you OP?) and your complete lack of outline of why this format doesn't work for you and indeed what you'd like to see, the technology to create CGI-intense, persistent, maleable online worlds where subscribers produce shareable assets and storylines is only just arriving at a consumer level. In the next year or so we should see some very promising ideas surfacing from smaller startups and modder communities as they get to grips with these. The big dev houses are going to really struggle because crowd-sourcing/open source creation by players for players is going to escalate, they will then participate in organically created universes to publish their own branded content. A smart play would be to begin hosting dev environments and offer hosting to dev communities using any useful hardware as they shutter games they can't maintain and sell their "expertise" <snort> at managing the availability of these services. Start building out optimised server farms with eco-credentials to create the sandpits that the communities will develop in.

[OlBuzzard]

My personal though(s) on MMO's ...

** Raids / group activities / "tougher" aspects of the game ... that's all part of what initially made them what they once were. PvP and PvE both have always seemed to be in some of the older games that had "group" interactions available also included "solo" as well. This goes waaaaay back to the days of SFC (SFC / OP was one of the more popular games that I personally experienced)).

 

** Games (on line) in general are gradually being redefined.

 

** Strictly solo ??? No ! It's just that simple.

 

** I personally see where there is a genuine need to "bridge the gaps" between these ideals. Not everyone today sees the benefits (nr cares to participate) in the older styled raids. Some of them use to be quite time consuming. On the other hand there is still a lot to be said about that provision in game. There is STILL a healthy number of players who want that sort of challenge. IMO it's a mistake to simply walk away from that audience.

 

** PvP ... the same goes for this part of the community. Not everyone wants to participate in PvP. Yet (again) if it were my game to develop and maintain I would certainly include it as a foundational part of the genre.

 

** PvE... I'm still a strong proponent of making sure that there is plenty of content with multiple levels of challenge: 3 for certain (possibly 4).

 

While it is true that some of us are not as young as what we once were .. it should always be understood that we need to leave a legacy behind that would reach out to those who are not only younger ... but flexible enough to make it fun as well.

 

(Yeah ... I know! But it's a dream of mine).

[xordevoreaux]

when we're done catering to the old people home.

OP, your apology is no apology. You're ageist.

Edited April 29, 2022 by xordevoreaux

[Pricia]

there are probably a thousand of categories of games and loads of games in each category, if you want a game from Category A to be more like a Category B game, it can be solved by devs changing the entire game genre, or in an easier way, by you changing the game you play to something more fitting for your preferences

 

or, in simpler terms, if you want a pizza buy that, don't buy a burger and complain its not a pizza

 

Yeah but what about when a game decides to change its target again after, let's say, 10 years, like going from a casual friendly game to a game where raiders get the best gear, are we allowed to complain then that it's not the game we signed up for?

 

I'm sure there's an example of it but I can't think of any at the top of my head!

[jedimasterjac]

I mean, you can call me one of the "old people" I guess (is 22 an 'old person' now?) but I just cannot stand MMOs without the Holy Trinity. It feels wrong -- and deeply boring -- to play a game without healing, without tanks, or where everyone is some perfect jack of all trades. I really, deeply do not like it, and I think it makes the genre itself much less interesting and much less engaging.

 

Raids and dungeons, too -- I like that MMOs encourage cooperative group content, and that they do so via PvE encounters that require large groups to beat.

 

Lots of MMOs have tried not to do these things, and, barring very few exceptions, they've almost all failed even worse than the most derivative EQ/WoW MMOs.

 

I've never seen much good argumentation for moving away from the holy trinity in particular, anyway.

 

"We've created a satisfying form of gameplay design where players can fulfill niche roles, supporting one another in group content, and thriving in specific areas while requiring other players to succeed in others."

 

Why change that?

 

Yeah but what about when a game decides to change its target again after, let's say, 10 years, like going from a casual friendly game to a game where raiders get the best gear, are we allowed to complain then that it's not the game we signed up for?

Imagine thinking that SWTOR still isn't casual friendly.

Edited April 29, 2022 by jedimasterjac

[Aghasett]

I like that MMOs encourage cooperative group content, and that they do so via PvE encounters that require large groups to beat.

 

I do too, but the staid, tired BORING formulaicness of raids makes them feel old-timey. There are so many creative approaches that could be taken with group content - learning the mechanics of a boss fight and dancing on cue isn't one of them. Raids are just a mechanical group-step for gear-hungry lemmings. For many/most, they are deeply boring and uninspired gameplay. That it's so much the focus of this game's development is strange.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Aghasett

[jedimasterjac]

I do too, but the staid, tired BORING formulaicness of raids makes them feel old-timey. There are so many creative approaches that could be taken with group content - learning the mechanics of a boss fight and dancing on cue isn't one of them. Raids are just a mechanical group-step for gear-hungry lemmings. For many/most, they are deeply boring and uninspired gameplay. That it's so much the focus of this game's development is strange.

 

What alternatives do you suggest? What are your examples of "creative approaches that could be taken with group content?"

Edited April 29, 2022 by jedimasterjac

[Aghasett]

What alternatives do you suggest? What are your examples of "creative approaches that could be taken with group content?"

 

I can imagine many. You can't? Any?

[juliushorst]

I'm old enough to remember times when 2D sprites were your standard enemies in FPS games but I'm all for more casual-friendly SWTOR and to say I dislike 7.0 raiding-oriented "vision" would be an understatement.

[Real_Dark_Lord]

there are probably a thousand of categories of games and loads of games in each category, if you want a game from Category A to be more like a Category B game, it can be solved by devs changing the entire game genre, or in an easier way, by you changing the game you play to something more fitting for your preferences

 

or, in simpler terms, if you want a pizza buy that, don't buy a burger and complain its not a pizza

 

Ah, that's the point, isn't it?

I bought a pizza, but they changed it into a burger and called it "pizza 7.0"

Edited April 29, 2022 by Real_Dark_Lord

[Lord_Thorne]

The problem is the raid & trinity formula works pretty well; the basic concepts are simple to grasp, and (as already pointed out) any game where you want lots of people playing at once has got have some content suitable for a gang of people working together.

 

Not that I disagree very much with the OP (despite being old enough to fall into Boomer age). My own quibbles about ops (and mind you, my only experience with raids is SWTOR) include how predictable they are: everyone knows exactly what each boss will do and when they will do it. It feels more like an overly strict line dance with SFX than an actual combat (which is why so many enjoy PVP I suppose, if only PVPers just weren't so elitist and toxic about it).

 

THere's other things that bug me about endgame, but I don't have any real solutions to offer (except randomizing ops bosses and their powers somehow, but I can just imagine the howls of rage from the raiders). I'm still here because of story & atmosphere more than the mechnics in any case.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Lord_Thorne

[Hadsil]

So, then what would be your suggestion?

 

Could it be that the actual idea of an MMO (that being a multitude of people all playing the same game in the same world at the same time on the same screen) would eventually lead to the raiding scenario?

 

Most every single-player game has a set piece that the player has to attack/conquer/etc. How would one do that in a game with thousands of players at a time?

 

I am not coming down on you or the question, truly curious as to what you envision.

 

If we accept the premise that the future of MMO is not in raids and operations then more focus could be put in story. As opposed to people buying new complete solo games we play online as per an MMO that gets updated. Obviously that takes time and money, so there needs to be something to keep players interested to pay by subscription. Perhaps raids and operations cannot be removed entirely.

 

There needs to be end game content players will play while waiting for the next story installment. Perhaps there can be achievements in game. Maybe after playing the story you get to unlock One Life mode. If you die there's no respawning. You have to start over from the beginning, i.e. you need to complete the entire story without dying at all. You still want a spacebar thing where you cut through dialogue for people who would be bored seeing and hearing the same thing over and over and over when it's the game play that's important in this mode. Additional or alternative, as per Eternal Throne you can have different difficulty modes for all story content. You'll also want to please the Space Barbie crowd, but in this case not only can you change the cosmetics of your character but also NPCs of the story, including the bad guys.

 

When there finally is new story content some can be continuation of the main story or even something entirely different of no relation as if it was an entirely new game but you don't need to buy the physical copy at the store because you're playing/paying by subscription.

[illgot]

holy trinity is fine, but it would be nice if tanking was more interactive than hitting aggro skills.

 

Maybe it involves directed attacks like a first person shooter. Anyone can be a tank they just have to hit the "aggro" spots on a target which makes it focus the attacker. The tank can just be the person who wears the most armor.

 

The DPS can hit the less aggro spots and help cripple the bosses speed, dodge, etc.

 

The healers can run around dropping healing wells. Not just casting heals on targets they have selected. Maybe the healers can rush in, toss a few healing attacks on players much like a third person shooter.

 

Healing trinity isn't a problem really. It's that games put way too much responsibility on tanks and healers while DPS get to see all the fun damage numbers they produce or flashy skills.

 

I believe the holy trinity can work well if designed well.

Edited April 30, 2022 by illgot

[Savej]

For my part, when the first MMOs came out I was excited because of the potential for recreating online rpgs displayed. We didn't have so many things but the look was basically right and it was all online and players could interact with each other, monsters and the environment.

 

The problem was that people with no imaginations came in and assumed that EQ and later Wow were popular because those games had big boss fights and trinity mechanics when that was the least of those game's strengths.

[BRKMSN]

mmos have an aging population issue, nobody wants to play these types of games anymore

I think it's more about market saturation. There are plenty of players, but too many games.

[Savej]

I think it's more about market saturation. There are plenty of players, but too many games.

 

They were saying the same thing before Wow came in and multiplied the mmo player population. MMOs have a stigma right now. Most people assume they are only for specific types of players who are addicted to <mechanics that look and feel dumb> to regular gamers.

[Shayddow]

To the original poster:

Learn to make your point without bigoted ageism.

 

 

From someone old enough to have watched the original Star Wars (1977) when I was in college.

 

 

[Falensawino]

there are probably a thousand of categories of games and loads of games in each category, if you want a game from Category A to be more like a Category B game, it can be solved by devs changing the entire game genre, or in an easier way, by you changing the game you play to something more fitting for your preferences

 

or, in simpler terms, if you want a pizza buy that, don't buy a burger and complain its not a pizza

 

Okay, let's use this in simpler terms

 

 

True, but I have the pizza I have now, because I wanted a pizza.

If I wanted a burger, I would have gotten a burger,

but I want a massively multilayer pizza.

 

The problem is, I've tried every pizza on the menu at one pizza shop. I've gone to the next pizza place, tried every item on their menu. The next pizza place over, and the same thing happened. Traveled across country and ocean in search of that sweet, sweet, savory massively multiplayer topping you've been drooling for but can't find anywhere because it simply doesn't exist....

 

It doesn't exist because every darn pizza by every darn pizza developer uses the same raid this, dungeon that, trinity forever formula.

 

I don't want any of the burgers, and I'm sick of the pizzas, they are all the same and have been for 30 years of never ever have evolved game design.

 

Oh, Master Skywalkah, What am I to do?

 

 

 

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So, are you suggesting SWTOR should be more like Super Mario Bros, or is that too old as well?

 

It's funny that many of the same people who suggest that a 10 year old game is 'old' and/or 'stale', will get together with their buddies to play Poker, Chess, Baseball, etc, etc.??

 

Not really about swtor being ten years old. But more about the genre as a whole being out of date due the repeat use of legacy systems like the raid, the dungeon, the trinity. Predate 3D gaming technology

 

SWTOR can't help its state or engine, however, it is, still relevant today because the genre as a whole is so backward and slow moving. Archaic design. The raid, the dungeon, the trinity legacy systems are still in use today. and unfortunately, still the focal point of mmorpg design. SWTOR is just good enough to be backwards compatible. There aren't any problems with SWTOR in this criteria looking at the timeline of the genre.

 

It was just a wow clone after all, it was modeled after something that came before it, with a few things to make it stand out a little different but keeping most of the same old in its similarly packaged deal.

 

 

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OP, your apology is no apology. You're ageist.

To the original poster:

Learn to make your point without bigoted ageism.

From someone old enough to have watched the original Star Wars (1977) when I was in college.

 

 

Yes, I concede, I could have done that without burning bridges and came off too strong pushing age as the main boogey man behind raid/dungeon/trinity formula staying in favor for so long. Are there better reasons why the cited legacy systems used as the focal point of mmorpgs haven't changed much since the days of text based MUDs? I could only think of age behind this longevity and staying power, it's been around too long and too unchallenged.

 

To answer this, I looked back in time, saw where the raid and trinity originated from, and asked myself, who'd still want to play this stuff?

 

I don't see why people are so attached to it, and want it to stay around forever

 

edit: I will be making revisions to the original post. go ahead, quote in full the OP to preserve the state I opened with originally. There will be small edits to lighten the language used, so new people joining the thread for the first time and only reading the first post, won't have to see this thread in that way.

 

/

/

/

the following is the quoted reply where I started pointing fingers at the most veteran players among us, it's from a recent thread:

 

We’re going to be making CM-1337 easier and simpler for players to obtain. The RPM and OEM modules can be purchased directly from the Spoils of War Vendor for 5k Tech Fragments each, while other sources have been removed:

• RPM-13 and OEM-37 costs on the Spoils of War Vendors SoW Vendor are now 5k (down from 10k)
  
• RPM-13 have been removed from Group Ranked Daily and Weekly Missions
  
• OEM-37 have been removed from Operation drops and Missions
  

 

 

 

Oh, removing the "free" ways to get them during gameplay and replacing it with a vendor using the same currency needed to buy and upgrade implants. So instead of doing ranked or operations to earn the items, now we are to grind additional tech frags to earn the funds to buy them from vendor.

 

So I'd say making it easier = adding the path as you did. By subtracting current ways to earn them what you actually did wasn't necessarily making it easier, you just changed the way to earn them.

 

So I'd personally change your post to say "We are changing the way to make CM-1337 materials for players to obtain". Saying it is now easier, isn't really true for those that were earning them through the existing ways. Just for those who didn't want to do ranked or operations and instead only bought them from vendor.

 

That's me, all the OEM, RPM I have acquired were from Tech Fragment trade-ins.

2000 tech frags from a story mode operation probably isn't a big enough bribe for me to put up with a World of Warcraft raid. theme park mmo, wow clone, yada yada yada. raid being an outdated gameplay mode from the late 90s, still being used as back of the box bulletpoint for games and still used as a benchmark for mmorpgs in 2022 for some reason. seems archaic and outdated for the aging population that still frequent mmorpgs since everquest and ultimate online. I don't know why young people not from that time get involved in this crap. Why should I put up with a wow raid™ for a tech frag treadmill. mmorpgs are probably one of the slowest to evolve genres in the past 25 years because of the raid and trinity.

 

pvp'ers in a mmorpgs get second hand second servings of a game because the game's main systems were developed around and decided by the raid and trinity

 

 

no one corrected the blame then, so here we are now.

 

if there's more to it (trinity, raids, dungeons sticking around so long) than age of the playerbase, and demographic market, please share

Edited April 30, 2022 by Falensawino