7.0 Class Balance is Poor

[supercometl]

One thing I would bring up with the OP's boss selection, is both of those fights heavily favor operative's AoE injection, which is overtuned, I am not denying that. But there are still fights where merc/sorc healing are going to be competitive. Duxn Trandos for instance.

 

If you wanted to buff sorc/merc all you need to do is buff their DR vs AoE option, Merc's bubble spread and sage's resurgence spread. Which both of those have above the operative that they don't need to stand with the group to get it off, so it still should be lower than operative's injection, but not to the degree it is in live. Still if you look at merc/sage parses on the heavily stacked up fights you see their big numbers will come from resourgence spread and bubble splash. Also add in once sage's resourgence implant actually gets fixed, sage will probably be buffed to a good point for AoE healing. Merc's bubble splash probably needs to heal a bit more, but that is just fine tuning.

 

Also one thing of note is currently critical is very low, so that tends to be more punishing for merc/operative, especially when operatives have tactician to bolster their crit deficit.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

One thing I would bring up with the OP's boss selection, is both of those fights heavily favor operative's AoE injection, which is overtuned, I am not denying that. But there are still fights where merc/sorc healing are going to be competitive. Duxn Trandos for instance.

 

If you wanted to buff sorc/merc all you need to do is buff their DR vs AoE option, Merc's bubble spread and sage's resurgence spread. Which both of those have above the operative that they don't need to stand with the group to get it off, so it still should be lower than operative's injection, but not to the degree it is in live. Still if you look at merc/sage parses on the heavily stacked up fights you see their big numbers will come from resourgence spread and bubble splash. Also add in once sage's resourgence implant actually gets fixed, sage will probably be buffed to a good point for AoE healing. Merc's bubble splash probably needs to heal a bit more, but that is just fine tuning.

 

Also one thing of note is currently critical is very low, so that tends to be more punishing for merc/operative, especially when operatives have tactician to bolster their crit deficit.

 

I agree that fixing resurgence spread is the way to improve sorc aoe heals which has been dreadfully lacking since 3.0. Why, then, did BioWare NERF resurgence spread last patch? Because they don’t give a **** about balance.

[mike_carton]

Still if you look at merc/sage parses on the heavily stacked up fights ..

 

I'm curious as to what average #s you are seeing for the three healing Disciplines. That's literally true: I'm just curious. Not trying to make a point or anything.

Edited April 11, 2022 by mike_carton

[Ahwassa]

I'm curious as to what average #s you are seeing for the three healing Disciplines. That's literally true: I'm just curious. Not trying to make a point or anything.

 

On stacked fights operatives can heal for 90 k ehps and sorc/merc probably around 30 k.

On not stacked fights all healers heal almost the same amount.

 

So:

operatives injection heal option needs to be halved or removed. And aoe healing needs to be improved for all healers.

 

Or the nim operation bosses need to be adjusted so that so much aoe healing is not required in the first place.

[supercometl]

On stacked fights operatives can heal for 90 k ehps and sorc/merc probably around 30 k.

On not stacked fights all healers heal almost the same amount.

 

Going to correct you on that one, the best nefra operative clear on parsely is only 61k ehps, and this was a fight that was with 2 PTs and 2 Maras, which if I was to guess, very few cleanses were put out in order to fluff the numbers.

 

Merc's best nefra is around 42k ehps.

 

The best sorc is around 36k ehps.

 

So using this stacked fight where AoE is benefited, merc is about correct, operative is over the top, and sorc is suffering. Keep in mind sorc's legendary theroretically will bolster their aoe possibility a bit once it is fixed, but they are still behind by a lot.

 

So no the gap isn't 60k in the difference. More like 20-30k. Which is bad, but at the same time a 5k ehps difference in this expansion is about the same as a 2k ehps difference in the last expansion.

 

Btw, considering that operative is still an "active" AoE vs merc's bubble spread and sage's resourgence spread, I still think injection should be pushing more hps than it's competition, Just like how nanotech/kolto waves pushed numbers last expansion. They are more restrictive than their competition, nanotech vs roaming/progressive and koltowaves vs missile/revivification.

 

But oh no, in a short add fight were tanks aren't holding all aggro an operative hit 90kehps for a single second.

[Ahwassa]

Going to correct you on that one, the best nefra operative clear on parsely is only 61k ehps, and this was a fight that was with 2 PTs and 2 Maras, which if I was to guess, very few cleanses were put out in order to fluff the numbers.

.

 

I wasn´t referring to Nefra nim but to Council nim burn phase.

100 k is probably achievable for operatives.

[supercometl]

I wasn´t referring to Nefra nim but to Council nim burn phase.

100 k is probably achievable for operatives.

 

>checks Parsely Council

>Operative's best Ehps is 42k

 

So you are talking burst... which isn't sustainable for a full fight... That is like saying AP/Tactics has huge DPS because when they have burst->poweryield-> burst it is huge DPS.

 

And I did check sage/merc and they are at 27k/28k respectively. So still big boi numbers from operative, but operative's short burst being good isn't a new thing.

 

Also the initial premise of the thread was looking at fights total, so you throwing out burst phases when the discussion was on full fights isn't the best. Especially when you are comparing a burst phases to full fight averages.

 

Again, Operative's injection needs to be brought down a bit, sorc's implant needs to be fixed and probably buffed, and merc is doing fine, maybe make the splash heal hit for 0.5k more per person or something. Just in reference to AoE stacked fights, which was the premise the thread started on.

[Ahwassa]

>checks Parsely Council

So you are talking burst... which isn't sustainable for a full fight... That is like saying AP/Tactics has huge DPS because when they have burst->poweryield-> burst it is huge DPS.

 

It´s not burst - it´s sustainalble aoe healing.

And there are many aoe heavy fights like this (Titan 6, Styrak etc) and as for now ONLY an operative can heal this insane damage. From first hand experiance I can tell you that Council nim is NOT possible without an operative.

 

And operative pulls great numbers even without that utility.

 

In conclusion: operative is so overpowered that many professionel groups (tactics changed so that group stacks) run with one operative heal and one other heal with dps gear.

 

Sorry but this is a huge difference in hps between oper and merc/sorc.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Ahwassa

[Gyronamics]

Before 7.0 went live players were aware of uncompetitive spec and class performance.

 

We are now over 2 months in, getting the third patch to 7.0 yet all class changes amount to nothing more than minor bugfixing.

 

A level playing field was claimed to be the goal. What game mode is this playing field level in?

Edited April 26, 2022 by Gyronamics

[TmoneyTime]

Umm, no

 

You do not hear RPers demanding it. You do not hear casuals demanding it. You do not hear not most others demanding it...just the elitists. Most people never even look at any kind of damage log or lists.

 

Ummm this is one of the weakest arguments you can make. The majority of player's are bad so it doesn't matter...... Every successful game balances from the top down. FF 14 high end always gets patched first. LoL competitive changes are always first. Wow mythic gets patched first. The high end content is what draws players even if they don't participate.That content is way more visible. Then some random heroic on makeb.

Edited May 24, 2022 by TmoneyTime

[TUXs]

Before 7.0 went live players were aware of uncompetitive spec and class performance.

 

We are now over 2 months in, getting the third patch to 7.0 yet all class changes amount to nothing more than minor bugfixing.

 

A level playing field was claimed to be the goal. What game mode is this playing field level in?

Anything from the Devs would beat the deafening silence on this subject...

[Jamtas]

Anything from the Devs would beat the deafening silence on this subject...

 

Silence? Man, that is a huge change from them. They've been so interactive and communicative in the past...

 

 

/S

 

 

[Falensawino]

Anything from the Devs would beat the deafening silence on this subject...

Welcome back TUXs, been a while since we've seen your name around these parts

[AlrikFassbauer]

Ummm this is one of the weakest arguments you can make. The majority of player's are bad so it doesn't matter...... Every successful game balances from the top down. FF 14 high end always gets patched first. LoL competitive changes are always first. Wow mythic gets patched first. The high end content is what draws players even if they don't participate.That content is way more visible. Then some random heroic on makeb.

 

Uh, you are so wrong - read this instead : https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PanderingToTheBase

 

Quoted from there :

 

Wrong. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans. But the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode of a show without ever making that fact widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming about how the show is Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The creators may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which these fans will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the less-noisy fans want can differ drastically.

 

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and/or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority that you catered to may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns, ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

[ZUHFB]

The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on

 

Excluding the casual fans is what should be done. Why? If everybody has it, nobody wants it. In a world were anybody is equal, the only thing that matters is what sets you apart. Nobody would be playing the game if everybody could be completed by everyone. Yes, if you create only content for those select few your game will die, but without creating a reason to play, which would be the rare items those very items which set your apart from the masses.

 

The entire endgame is about flexing, stop denying it - it's true. You can always flex with the things others can't obtain, Top96, DI, True Apex Predator, Wings, Hyperpod - heck even a high gearscore, high damage numbers on parsely or on the leaderboards. It's all about making numbers go up, numbers of mounts, numbers of titles numbers as in DPS or just as a gearscore.

 

If you take away the goal of having those rare items and just giving them out for free, they aren't rare anymore. Each expansion takes away your progress or gives other player the opportunity to increase any of the numbers they choose to care about. If don't care about these numbers you are either an insanely skilled player who doesn't need to prove themselves anymore because they've been top10 players for literally years - or you are not an endgame player, in which case nothing of this matters to you BUT then the game is also finite in what it can offer: a story, a few flashpoints but you never actually do anything, after conquest reset you might as well be a fresh 80 coming from idk dromund kaas or whenever you actually hit 80 - scratch that, probably coming from nathema

[Jephryp]

I'm most likely the definition of a casual player. I love to solo through the stories; I rarely group or do ops unless friends from other guilds need me. Either way, before 7.0, I played LOTS of characters regularly, AND I spent money on cartel coins and items for "stuff," for those characters. Now, since many of the specs take FOREVER to do anything or can't even run through the Nar Shaddaa heroics without dying multiple times, I have reduced my 30+ characters to around six. It gets a bit boring. Yeah, I do miss the balanced classes. I miss where each class/spec could pretty much run all the content equally. Does that make me elitist or a realistic paying customer? If I can hit conquest on three characters in the same time it take me to slog to 100k on one character, what do you think I'm going to play? Doesn't matter if I "like" that character, when it becomes a chore, I'm not going to play it. If I join an operation, I do NOT want to be a liability, either. I would rather heal on my sage/sorc, but if I'm required to play my scoundrel/op, I guess I will. Sounds more like a job than a game, and that's when I will move on.

 

TLDR: I definitely miss the days of 6.x when I could CASUALLY jump on any character and solo, quest or help friends in any way. Class balance is needed!

[Gyronamics]

The first attempt at balancing in 7.0 has been announced. It will go to PTS and eventually something will see live.

[analyis]

Every expansion release has had class balance issues that were eventually resolved before the next release created new balancing issues.

 

As an example, my main is a sentinel. My first sent was Focus and it was wicked op back in the Beta 1.0 days. They nerfed force sweep into the ground around 2.0 ish so I switched spec to watchman and it was wicked op with the dot spreads. Then they nerfed it into the ground (could not get past the Underlurker) so switched spec to Combat and stuck with it for quite some time because no new stuff came out for quite some time. 3 weeks ago switched from Combat to Concentration (used to be Focus). Not because combat wasn't viable (21-24K dps in ops) but wanted to see if all the chatter about OP concentration was fact or fiction. Turns out it's fact, force sweep back with massive damage on mobs and burst damage is impressive (show me the crits). But alas 7.1 nerf is coming for concentration and buff for combat.

 

My point is, there is more than one option for each class and there are plenty of classes. Wish more on these message boards put their energy into adapting instead of complaining

[ZUHFB]

Every expansion release has had class balance issues that were eventually resolved before the next release created new balancing issues.

 

As an example, my main is a sentinel. My first sent was Focus and it was wicked op back in the Beta 1.0 days. They nerfed force sweep into the ground around 2.0 ish so I switched spec to watchman and it was wicked op with the dot spreads. Then they nerfed it into the ground (could not get past the Underlurker) so switched spec to Combat and stuck with it for quite some time because no new stuff came out for quite some time. 3 weeks ago switched from Combat to Concentration (used to be Focus). Not because combat wasn't viable (21-24K dps in ops) but wanted to see if all the chatter about OP concentration was fact or fiction. Turns out it's fact, force sweep back with massive damage on mobs and burst damage is impressive (show me the crits). But alas 7.1 nerf is coming for concentration and buff for combat.

 

My point is, there is more than one option for each class and there are plenty of classes. Wish more on these message boards put their energy into adapting instead of complaining

 

It's not a buff for combat, it's a nerf. Losing this much straight up defensives also is a loss for your rage, combat got LESS viable because of this change.

[analyis]

It's not a buff for combat, it's a nerf. Losing this much straight up defensives also is a loss for your rage, combat got LESS viable because of this change.

 

I suggest you take a look at what was posted in Dev tracker for 7.1 class balancing and also take a look at the new tactical that will replace the Fanged God form we lost. Once you read that if you think Combat is being nerfed you just flat out don't know the class.

[Gyronamics]

Wish more on these message boards put their energy into adapting instead of complaining

 

You are oblivious to the many reasons people play the game. The most reasonable thing to want is a fair shot at performing your role.

 

If you made an effort to look at the data in the first post you'd also be aware that your adventures in spec swapping is a terrible anecdote when the worst class in 7.0 has the worst spec by far and the alternative is the third worst spec

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gyronamics

[analyis]

You are oblivious to the many reasons people play the game. The most reasonable thing to want is a fair shot at performing your role.

 

If you made an effort to look at the data in the first post you'd also be aware that your adventures in spec swapping is a terrible anecdote when the worst class in 7.0 has the worst spec by far and the alternative is the third worst spec

 

ROFL. All classes are viable in 7.0 with 1 exception and that is Merc DPS. That was a screw up just like the Watchman spec I mentioned in my original response. The problem appears that everyone wants a class with the best and viable isn't good enough. If as much effort was put into getting the best out of your preferred toon as is put into the complaining...just saying.

[ZUHFB]

I suggest you take a look at what was posted in Dev tracker for 7.1 class balancing and also take a look at the new tactical that will replace the Fanged God form we lost. Once you read that if you think Combat is being nerfed you just flat out don't know the class.

 

Duh, it's obviously a dps increase. But not nearly enough, and you lose AOE DR so it's an overall loss for PvE

[Gyronamics]

ROFL. All classes are viable in 7.0 with 1 exception and that is Merc DPS. That was a screw up just like the Watchman spec I mentioned in my original response. The problem appears that everyone wants a class with the best and viable isn't good enough. If as much effort was put into getting the best out of your preferred toon as is put into the complaining...just saying.

 

In this thread recurring issues being mentioned are, the top end and the bottom end of dps and the aoe healing of operatives.

 

Nothing else has even rough agreement to back up your "everyone".

 

Out of that the developers have decided to go with some small dps changes to the top and bottom end. I say small because they are small changes.

 

Far more significant is the removal of the last permanent 30% aoe damage reduction from marauders which are being used for their high damage and high damage reduction.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gyronamics

[Kaedusz]

Game was getting stale anyway , everything was the same for years. I feel like i have to learn to play anew somewhat. I keep pressing hydraulic overdrives for merc for example and it's not there. And it feels weird not having any healing on my Sniper, etc...

It's fun to learn classes again.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Kaedusz