7.0 Class Balance is Poor

[gregordunbar]

You are completely missing the point of this thread, and the point the others you are refuting are trying to make. There is no elitism happening here. People are actually advocating for others to be able to play what they want, and NOT have to worry about their class under-performing. This isn't an issue of elitism, spreadsheets, parsing, etc. The issue is that how scaling is currently, you literally CANNOT clear certain content, if you bring certain classes, in certain amounts. It is just numerically impossible, no matter how well the person plays. This is broken design, and it needs to be fixed.

 

Umm, no. The person above my first post is talking about 2 classes being so OP they can replace a healer with others saying some classes are a burden and others are not. That, is elitism, that is asking that all classes be made equal.

 

... No.

 

I never group except for GSF and the occasional warzone.

 

GSF? You mean the thing where a Gunship can out damage a Bomber 100% the time with little effort from max distance and a scout would have to put in 2/3 x the work to come close as well?

 

Also, the rest of your points support my argument. You say you are considering respeccing some classes because they dont do as much DPS and are squishy and thus place others above it and think that is the only way to play. That is the definition of elitist...you want only the best of the best on paper and are demanding everything be the same.

 

You do not hear RPers demanding it. You do not hear casuals demanding it. You do not hear not most others demanding it...just the elitists. Most people never even look at any kind of damage log or lists.

[Toraak]

Umm, no. The person above my first post is talking about 2 classes being so OP they can replace a healer with others saying some classes are a burden and others are not. That, is elitism, that is asking that all classes be made equal.

 

 

 

GSF? You mean the thing where a Gunship can out damage a Bomber 100% the time with little effort from max distance and a scout would have to put in 2/3 x the work to come close as well?

 

Also, the rest of your points support my argument. You say you are considering respeccing some classes because they dont do as much DPS and are squishy and thus place others above it and think that is the only way to play. That is the definition of elitist...you want only the best of the best on paper and are demanding everything be the same.

 

You do not hear RPers demanding it. You do not hear casuals demanding it. You do not hear not most others demanding it...just the elitists. Most people never even look at any kind of damage log or lists.

 

That is not elitism at all. They are simply saying that they are changing specs/classes because BW's balance makes it so the class they like to play or want to play does not pull the required amount of DPS or HPS for the content that they wish to play. This is not elitism, this is them being forced due to poor balance to play something else so they can play the content they want.

 

All classes should be able to do the correct DPS or Heals for the content, and some classes in this game simply can not do that at this point. Not everyone wants to be a burden on the group they are in. Many feel they should pull their own weight while doing all content, so if a class can't do that, then it's time for a change.

[Vecte]

Umm, no. The person above my first post is talking about 2 classes being so OP they can replace a healer with others saying some classes are a burden and others are not. That, is elitism, that is asking that all classes be made equal.

 

 

 

GSF? You mean the thing where a Gunship can out damage a Bomber 100% the time with little effort from max distance and a scout would have to put in 2/3 x the work to come close as well?

 

Also, the rest of your points support my argument. You say you are considering respeccing some classes because they dont do as much DPS and are squishy and thus place others above it and think that is the only way to play. That is the definition of elitist...you want only the best of the best on paper and are demanding everything be the same.

 

You do not hear RPers demanding it. You do not hear casuals demanding it. You do not hear not most others demanding it...just the elitists. Most people never even look at any kind of damage log or lists.

 

Again, you are completely missing the point of this thread, ignoring the actual narrative, and replacing it with your own. You are absolutely correct, the vast majority of the populace in this game will never look at damage or logs. Why? Because they are not doing NiM content, and the like. The entire point of this thread is in regards to the hardest content this game has to offer. What I am going to say next, I am going to put in bold so it is noticed.

There are certain classes/specs that cannot meet the numbers required to defeat certain content. A boss has a set amount of health and a timer with which the group has to reduce that amount of health to zero before the boss enrages. This means that each member of the group needs to pull a certain amount of damage per second to beat this timer. Currently, some classes cannot meet these numbers, making it numerically impossible. This means that if you play one of these classes, and you want to clear this content, you currently cannot. This is because of flaws in the current class design, and not because of elitism.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

As it should be... Too many mechanics in this game work only aganinst melee (thats poor design btw not ranged classes fault), Previous to 7.0 sorcs pulled way more damaged as it should be, I have seen NiM groups way too often with only ranged classes, mostly 2-3 oft it sorcs.

 

(1) When maras are doing 29k and I/O mercs are doing 23k, that's a bit too much of a difference (obviously).

 

(2) Melee specs already have the advantage that their abilities are instant and not casted. Range specs have casted abilities, limiting their mobility, therefore creating many mechanics which limit their dps because they have to move and can't do their rotation. Melee dps really don't need more of an advantage on top of this.

Edited March 26, 2022 by AwesomeTacoCat

[Gyronamics]

There have been words from developers in the past regarding granting advantages to compensate hardships they feel exist for playing certain classes or specs.

 

Current imbalance exceeds all % advantages previously mentioned.

 

And fails to match previously given reasoning.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Gyronamics

[gregordunbar]

That is not elitism at all..

 

It is elitism to want all damage/healing or tanking to be equal. Saying you are going to change your class because, numbers = playing not for fun, but because of numbers. To be in the top tier.

 

You do not get to change the meaning of a word because you do not want it applied to you.

 

Again, you are completely missing the point of this thread, ignoring the actual narrative, and replacing it with your own.

 

Why? Because they are not doing NiM content, and the like.[/b]

 

Its clear you will never accept the label of elitist...even when you are CLEARLY an elitist. To post something like that " Because they are not doing NIM" and be so blind as to not realize what it is you are...NIM is 0.001% of the games content and you want the classes to be suited for THAT. Elitism confirmed.

[Shwarzchild]

It is elitism to want all damage/healing or tanking to be equal. Saying you are going to change your class because, numbers = playing not for fun, but because of numbers. To be in the top tier.

 

You do not get to change the meaning of a word because you do not want it applied to you.

 

 

 

Its clear you will never accept the label of elitist...even when you are CLEARLY an elitist. To post something like that " Because they are not doing NIM" and be so blind as to not realize what it is you are...NIM is 0.001% of the games content and you want the classes to be suited for THAT. Elitism confirmed.

 

 

 

You do not know what elitism is. Elitism is based on the concept of unequal distribution of a thing. To claim that someone wants equality in a thing is the very opposite of elitism.

[Pricia]

 

Also, the rest of your points support my argument. You say you are considering respeccing some classes because they dont do as much DPS and are squishy and thus place others above it and think that is the only way to play. That is the definition of elitist...you want only the best of the best on paper and are demanding everything be the same.

 

You do not hear RPers demanding it. You do not hear casuals demanding it. You do not hear not most others demanding it...just the elitists. Most people never even look at any kind of damage log or lists.

 

Lol nope. Wanting to have fun has NOTHING TO DO WITH ELITISM.

 

Not gonna lie, it baffles me that some people actually believe that it's perfectly ok for classes to be completely unbalanced. Guess what... your casual and role players would still have fun if they balanced the classes. It doesn't affect them one bit.

 

Also yeah - elitism is "the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society." Wanting everything to be balanced is the OPPOSITE of elitism.

 

An elitist would be a marauder claiming that everything is fine and that other classes don't need a boost.

 

So yeah - in this case, you're the elitist. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Damask_Rose]

Guess what... your casual and role players would still have fun if they balanced the classes. It doesn't affect them one bit.

 

This casual player would have more fun if the classes were balanced. As I play my way through my roster of alts, I have to say, the underperforming classes are less fun to play. Hitting like a wet noodle isn't fun for me.

[Pricia]

This casual player would have more fun if the classes were balanced. As I play my way through my roster of alts, I have to say, the underperforming classes are less fun to play. Hitting like a wet noodle isn't fun for me.

 

Exactly.

 

And I play every class casually too (I'm not a casual due to the hours I put in the game but I don't group or do ops) - the difference is obvious.

 

Now all my marauders and sentinels are fury and concentration for example and it's extremely disappointing.

[NogueiraA]

Yes, just what we need is another outcry of "Balance the classes" because 7.0 didnt wreck the game enough trying to bring that new vision...seeking balance, has destroyed more MMOs than anything else.

 

Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

You completely fail to see that parses helps a lot when it comes to balance a DoT/burst spec, aoe damage, aoe healing, boss phases etc etc.

It makes a better game FOR Y-O-U to enjoy, so stop. S T O P trying to cancel those that actually brings something important to the game.

[Ahwassa]

Hey Jackie,

 

could you or someone from the team say something about this topic?

I´m in 2 nim raid groups and currently we can´t progress/rekill Dxun because it´s basically impossible.

Also we fail to clear most nim ops because most of us don´t run the 4 meta classes needed to do so.

 

That means I (and most of my group) play less and are waiting for class balance hopefully in 7.1.

Can we get a date please or at least some acknowledgement?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ahwassa

[Goreshaga]

This casual player would have more fun if the classes were balanced. As I play my way through my roster of alts, I have to say, the underperforming classes are less fun to play. Hitting like a wet noodle isn't fun for me.

This casual player 100% agrees with the above casual player.

 

I have characters for pretty much all combat styles, and yeah, for me as well, hitting like a wet noodle that also melts like butter is not fun, it's quite the opposite of fun tbh.

[Darthmoriquendi]

This casual player 100% agrees with the above casual player.

 

I have characters for pretty much all combat styles, and yeah, for me as well, hitting like a wet noodle that also melts like butter is not fun, it's quite the opposite of fun tbh.

 

I also agree.

[gregordunbar]

Lol nope. Wanting to have fun has NOTHING TO DO WITH ELITISM.

 

No amount of rage by you is going to remove the fact that you are an elitist demanding that you should have your wants catered to, no matter the cost, desires, opinions of every other player.

 

You are making a demand that the minority of the minority wants. Everyone else does not. This is elitisms at its finest.

 

You are not special. You have chosen to play a character and now, like an elitist, you demand your character be changed to suit you. You are not playing for fun, you only want numbers to look good on a spreadsheet. The fact you are are attempting to make it sound like number totals are fun is only a thing an elitist would say.

 

Not sure what is worse, you actually not understanding what elitism is, or being an elitist pretending to be obtuse because you cannot actually formulate a counter-argument like so many others used to be able to.

[Ahwassa]

You are making a demand that the minority of the minority wants. Everyone else does not. This is elitisms at its finest.

 

Can you please make your own thread on what you consider is elitism or whatever?

I´d like to discuss class balance in this thread about class balance.

Thanks.

[LordFell]

No amount of rage by you is going to remove the fact that you are an elitist demanding that you should have your wants catered to, no matter the cost, desires, opinions of every other player.

 

You are making a demand that the minority of the minority wants. Everyone else does not. This is elitisms at its finest.

Let's approach this from another way...

what, exactly are you promoting? It's easy to say that people are being elitist, and changing things to suit them is pandering... but if we accept that as truth, what exactly is it you want to see?

 

For me, I like that classes play differently. My Power Tech has better overall mitigation but fewer defensive cooldowns compared to my Juggernaut... but they can both tank the same content (their gear is pretty similar). Personally, I don't care about numbers at all, provided my character can do the job they stepped forward to do. I'm usually a solo player, with some Story Mode Ops thrown in. I did, recently and accidentally, join a Hard Mode Operation with my Marksmanship Sniper. I was not (am not) geared for Hard Mode Ops, and someone actually did leave the group because "there were people that would make DPS checks too hard in the group." I volunteered to leave myself, but instead they carried me; I parsed a bit shy of 11K, when Hard Mode players should be doing 15K at least. I still had fun, because I worked my heiney off to hit my cooldowns and ace my rotations... but more importantly, we still succeeded.

 

Solo play with that same Sniper... a lot tougher than it is for other toons I have. I just don't seem to be doing enough DPS to account for how squishy I am. Used to be I would take the time to kill off Champion (double gold star) enemies, just because they were there... but since 7.0, I am finding that my Sniper often cannot do this. My level 50 Tank companion drops before I can DPS the target down. Again, this is SOLO play and NOT CHALLENGING content, but I'm finding that this particular character doesn't have the numbers to deal. Guess what; that's not fun.

[Floplag]

As it should be... Too many mechanics in this game work only aganinst melee (thats poor design btw not ranged classes fault), Previous to 7.0 sorcs pulled way more damaged as it should be, I have seen NiM groups way too often with only ranged classes, mostly 2-3 oft it sorcs.

 

It should only be this way if time on target is limited. With all the mobility melee has today, this is not the case, its little more than a minor inconvenience.

Either way, the different should not be 8-9K plus.

This just isnt a feasible position to take in the current paradigm.

[Floplag]

(1) When maras are doing 29k and I/O mercs are doing 23k, that's a bit too much of a difference (obviously).

 

(2) Melee specs already have the advantage that their abilities are instant and not casted. Range specs have casted abilities, limiting their mobility, therefore creating many mechanics which limit their dps because they have to move and can't do their rotation. Melee dps really don't need more of an advantage on top of this.

 

This.

I prefer ranged historically in all these games for various reasons largely do the field of view, but... I agree that melee should hit harder, but that should be offset by kiting and other such mechanisms that basically no one but sorcs are curtly able to do consistently.

[Floplag]

Hey Jackie,

 

could you or someone from the team say something about this topic?

I´m in 2 nim raid groups and currently we can´t progress/rekill Dxun because it´s basically impossible.

Also we fail to clear most nim ops because most of us don´t run the 4 meta classes needed to do so.

 

That means I (and most of my group) play less and are waiting for class balance hopefully in 7.1.

Can we get a date please or at least some acknowledgement?

 

 

The only answer we will get is that they are doing a balance pass with 7.1, or so weve been told.

Until then if youre not among the chosen few you have little shot.

I feel for the various tech only guilds that dont allow force wielders as they must really hurting right now limited to tech classes only which are all bottom of the table.

 

In the end class balance isnt poor, its non existent.

The range from top to bottom is a 9K differential, from 33 to 24. No amount of skill of insert whatever other thing you want to pretend affects this will overcome a 30+% damage differential. There are always variances on new releases, but i dont recall ever seeing one this big in any of these games. No guild that doesnt run the FOTM classes can compete.

[Pricia]

 

You are making a demand that the minority of the minority wants. Everyone else does not.

 

How do you know? I'd wager that if you asked anyone playing carnage or arsenal if they'd like to do more damage they wouldn't say no...

 

Besides, again... it wouldn't affect only a select few. It would affect EVERYONE that has those subpar specs.

 

Asking things to be fair for everyone is the OPPOSITE of elitism.

 

You should probably buy a dictionary.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Pricia

[AwesomeTacoCat]

What if, and this might sound crazy, we just all stop feeding the troll calling people elitist for wanting some semblance of class balance?

[Ahwassa]

Can we please get an update from the devs?

 

One of my two raidgroups is on the verge of dissolving. Most will unsub of course.

And I too don´t see many reasons to be subbed.

 

Please fix class balance or give us a date when it will be fixed, or just say that you are working on it please.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

^ this. Lack of balance and scaling of endgame content is ruining raid teams.

[VassiliZaitsev]

No amount of rage by you is going to remove the fact that you are an elitist demanding that you should have your wants catered to, no matter the cost, desires, opinions of every other player.

 

You are making a demand that the minority of the minority wants. Everyone else does not. This is elitisms at its finest.

 

You are not special. You have chosen to play a character and now, like an elitist, you demand your character be changed to suit you. You are not playing for fun, you only want numbers to look good on a spreadsheet. The fact you are are attempting to make it sound like number totals are fun is only a thing an elitist would say.

 

Not sure what is worse, you actually not understanding what elitism is, or being an elitist pretending to be obtuse because you cannot actually formulate a counter-argument like so many others used to be able to.

 

At this point I can longer tell if you are trolling or a complete idiot. No one is asking for all classes/specs to be equal. Let me explain this as simply as possible in case you are the latter.

 

Imagine a boss requires 20k dps to kill per dps player. 4 classes do over 20k. 4 classes no matter the performance can never pass 18k. No one is asking all classes do 25k equally. A sorc could do 25k, a merc 22k, a marauder 24k etc. All classes played well can still meet the minimum 20k if geared and played correctly.

 

That is literally all OP and others are trying to say by asking for a balance update. Just for viability. That way whether you are solo, casual, raider, pvper. You can still manage with your class and spec of choice. The worst thing in an mmo is when a couple classes surpass the others and you see nothing but 90% of the population playing the same cookie cutter classes, instead of what they prefer.

Edited April 1, 2022 by VassiliZaitsev