7.0 Class Balance is Poor

[Falensawino]

so what I originally was going to post, I would have filed in the developer sticky: Changes to rewards for PvP, GSF, and Operations

but it's a better fit in this thread.

 

We’re going to be making CM-1337 easier and simpler for players to obtain. The RPM and OEM modules can be purchased directly from the Spoils of War Vendor for 5k Tech Fragments each, while other sources have been removed:

• RPM-13 and OEM-37 costs on the Spoils of War Vendors SoW Vendor are now 5k (down from 10k)
  
• RPM-13 have been removed from Group Ranked Daily and Weekly Missions
  
• OEM-37 have been removed from Operation drops and Missions
  

 

 

 

Oh, removing the "free" ways to get them during gameplay and replacing it with a vendor using the same currency needed to buy and upgrade implants. So instead of doing ranked or operations to earn the items, now we are to grind additional tech frags to earn the funds to buy them from vendor.

 

So I'd say making it easier = adding the path as you did. By subtracting current ways to earn them what you actually did wasn't necessarily making it easier, you just changed the way to earn them.

 

So I'd personally change your post to say "We are changing the way to make CM-1337 materials for players to obtain". Saying it is now easier, isn't really true for those that were earning them through the existing ways. Just for those who didn't want to do ranked or operations and instead only bought them from vendor.

 

That's me, all the OEM, RPM I have acquired were from Tech Fragment trade-ins.

2000 tech frags from a story mode operation probably isn't a big enough bribe for me to put up with a World of Warcraft raid. theme park mmo, wow clone, yada yada yada. raid being an outdated gameplay mode from the late 90s, still being used as back of the box bulletpoint for games and still used as a benchmark for mmorpgs in 2022 for some reason. seems archaic and outdated for the aging population that still frequent mmorpgs since everquest and ultimate online. I don't know why young people not from that time get involved in this crap. Why should I put up with raid for a tech frag treadmill. mmorpgs are probably one of the slowest to evolve genres in the past 25 years because of the raid and trinity.

 

pvp'ers in an mmorpgs get second hand second servings of a game because the game's main systems were developed around and decided by the raid and trinity

 

 

Yes, just what we need is another outcry of "Balance the classes" because 7.0 didnt wreck the game enough trying to bring that new vision...seeking balance, has destroyed more MMOs than anything else.

 

Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

Yeah, but thats a delicate point. If youre playing your class very good - and see how other play their class just ok and outperform you by a mile... thats no fun.

And to be fair the OP has some point - Carnage underperform horribly and Arsenal/IO Merc are also in a very poor spot right now. Snipers maybe too. And we didn't talk about just minor differences... if two Carnage Maras do the same damage as almost one Fury.

Again, this is only due to people placing value on numbers, and not fun.

 

This kind of garbage creates zero differences between classes other than names and creates this belief that if x class does 50 damage, y and z must also otherwise its not "fair". Its also why elitist guilds are not large while non-elitist guilds are...they suck the fun out of playing because their spreadsheets say something.

 

but no, we need "fairness" and so we have a whole lot of bland nonsense for the sake of not getting as many elitist tears. Cookie cutter garbage, instead of giving us what we should get in a star wars game to fit the LORE.

 

7.0 trashed the classes because of elitist whining on the forums. well, congrats, the game is even worse than before.

Don't know why this triggered you so much.

 

First of all; If there is „zero difference“ between classes, than exists no classes at all. Second, I don't really get who do you consider an „elitist“? Third – you contradict yourself. If someone having fun playing after „their spreadsheets“ - so its their definition of fun. Why is their fun „bad“ and your fun is how it should be?

 

 

 

This isn't the discussion youre looking for. What you want to discuss you can finde here; https://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=245

it's almost like the mmorpg genre needs to ditch the raid and trinity so it can be an actual game instead of a spreadsheet sim.

 

every developer that has ever attempted to make a mmorpg has used those 'gold standards' because that's what's required on the back of the box to be considered an mmorpg these days

 

It's nothing but a bulletpoint and the entire game is developed and designed around that bulletpoint. It's all shoehorned to fit a stupid bulletpoint. It's ludicrious that raids still pass as an acceptable game mode in 2022

Edited April 1, 2022 by Falensawino

[Falensawino]

Again, you are completely missing the point of this thread, ignoring the actual narrative, and replacing it with your own. The entire point of this thread is in regards to the hardest content this game has to offer. What I am going to say next, I am going to put in bold so it is noticed.

There are certain classes/specs that cannot meet the numbers required to defeat certain content. A boss has a set amount of health and a timer with which the group has to reduce that amount of health to zero before the boss enrages. This means that each member of the group needs to pull a certain amount of damage per second to beat this timer. Currently, some classes cannot meet these numbers, making it numerically impossible. This means that if you play one of these classes, and you want to clear this content, you currently cannot. This is because of flaws in the current class design, and not because of elitism.

flaws like that repeat every update because these games are still designed around a 25+ year old gamemode and system that hasn't evolved

 

 

Raiding originated in the class of text MUDs known as DikuMUD, which in turn heavily influenced the 1999 MMORPG EverQuest, which brought the raiding concept into modern 3D MMORPGs.[2] As of 2019, the largest and most popular game to feature raiding is Blizzard's 2004 MMORPG World of Warcraft.[3]

you're basically playing a game mode/type that's going to turn 30 years old because it was the easiest, feasible game to program when technology only allowed text gameplay dude.

 

nobody seriously plays text based MUDs like they do WOW but we still feel the effects everyday of having mmorpg game systems designed around text-based MUD technology

 

I have the feeling we're talking about a different mindset altogether or maybe a different "philosophy" of how combat is meant to work in SWTOR compared to, say, GuildWars 2.

 

SWTOR does have a combat log since quite a while now, while GuildWars 2 doesn't (at least not officialy).

 

In SWTOR, being able to go back to your combat log and trying to figure out how to improve your... performance is a huge part of "raiding progression", even if only on hard/veteran mode. Many actually enjoy that because it gives you a direction and a purpose.

You see the problem here? everything in an a benchmarked, bulletpoint "mmorpg" is tied to raids

 

we are still using text-based raids in 3D MMOs...

 

let that sink in

 

 

-------

we find ourselves in a thread where people are complaining that text-based raids still pass as gameplay in 2022

 

you ought to be demanding a better class of game, than whine about this month's class balance.

 

you're just going to do the same thing next month, month after that, game version after that, years after that, and so on.

 

you'll die before someone invents an mmo that's actually worth playing

Edited April 1, 2022 by Falensawino

[Ahwassa]

we find ourselves in a thread where people are complaining that text-based raids still pass as gameplay in 2022

 

you ought to be demanding a better class of game, than whine about this month's class balance.

 

Well I like raids and the holy trinity. Thats why I play this game. Because it treats tanks and healer (mostly) with respect.

And I love healing. Games like ESO and Guild Wars 2 don´t.

 

Also I don´t think this is the right topic for this thread.

Please feel free to make a new one.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Ahwassa

[Ahwassa]

To get back to the topic:

 

I was parsing some Nim bosses with my sorc and operative heal.

On some bosses the operative parsed over 60 k while 30 k is the ceiling for my sorcerer heal.

 

So can we have some class balance please, and soon? While my raid groups still exist?

[bluehufsa]

To get back to the topic:

 

I was parsing some Nim bosses with my sorc and operative heal.

On some bosses the operative parsed over 60 k while 30 k is the ceiling for my sorcerer heal.

 

So can we have some class balance please, and soon? While my raid groups still exist?

 

.. and i can barely do 22 k with my arsenal mercenary.. 327 irating.. full purple augments..

huh guess is time to unsubscribe?

or idk, play a class i literally LOATHE ( operative) ?

now really.. if the differences are so big, then is over.

[Ahwassa]

or idk, play a class i literally LOATHE ( operative) ?

 

The only good dps in Nim right now are PT, Marodeur and Juggernaut/Assassin.

Alle the other classes have bad dps or not enough damage reduction.

[bluehufsa]

The only good dps in Nim right now are PT, Marodeur and Juggernaut/Assassin.

Alle the other classes have bad dps or not enough damage reduction.

 

I actually took operative as a second discipline on one of my low level mercenaries and it literally one hit all mobs.. even if i have no idea what am i doing.. even if the gear is.. let's say my character look like she was dressed by the Salvation Army.. lv 20 on Balmorra.. LOL, i have never been more confused in my life.

[AhaziBorn]

Yes, just what we need is another outcry of "Balance the classes" because 7.0 didnt wreck the game enough trying to bring that new vision...seeking balance, has destroyed more MMOs than anything else.

 

Ever trying actually playing a class because its fun instead of what is the "best".

 

People that parse data are elitists. going for and demanding that extra 0.005% out of people for your OPS, ruins the game which is supposed to be a thing done for fun.

 

For some people(not me), the fun is being good. The fun is being the Best DPS, Heals, or Tank. Those are the people who are here for the challenge, and yes, might be a bit elitist. But so what? If that is what they find to be fun, then that is their fun. This game is already currently too much of Play the way Bioware wants you to play, and not enough Play the things you enjoy, they don't need to add classes to that list of broken garbo.

[Floplag]

The only good dps in Nim right now are PT, Marodeur and Juggernaut/Assassin.

Alle the other classes have bad dps or not enough damage reduction.

 

RIP those of us that prefer ranged... literally ANY ranged, lol

[bluehufsa]

For some people(not me), the fun is being good. The fun is being the Best DPS, Heals, or Tank. Those are the people who are here for the challenge, and yes, might be a bit elitist. But so what? If that is what they find to be fun, then that is their fun. This game is already currently too much of Play the way Bioware wants you to play, and not enough Play the things you enjoy, they don't need to add classes to that list of broken garbo.

 

Just " a bit" ?

Sorry but i don't understand this "challenge" thing! If someone wants challenge, then he or she should learn playing chess or Go..

Edited April 1, 2022 by bluehufsa

[LordFell]

I was happily playing my Arsenal Merc until someone pointed out that Arsenal Mercs are actually getting kicked out of Raids because they just can't perform. I've decided that I like Innovative Ordnance better, so this was an OK switch... but if a Class (not the player) can't perform well enough to not be stigmatized, then there's a problem.

[Gyronamics]

We had this interview in Febuary with Chris Durel:

 

https://vulkk.com/2022/02/07/swtor-7-0-class-design-and-balance-interview-with-bioware-gameplay-designer/

Chris Durel: Our priority for 7.0 as far as balance is concerned is retaining effectiveness for each class while highlighting what makes them unique. That usually translates to keeping as much functionality on the classes as we can, paring down what we no longer consider integral, and adding or modifying functionality that highlights the class fantasy.

 

Our goal is to strive to keep a pretty level playing field with classes in SWTOR. So if we take one thing away from a class we try to make up for it somewhere else. We also looked a lot at bringing up classes that are underutilized or were underperforming by making adjustments to how they play. A lot of this became possible with the new approach to Combat Styles and the new ability tree system.

SWTOR Yavin 4 Landscape - Forgotten Terrace

 

A more fine-tuned focus as far as balance goes for 7.0 was Defensive Cooldowns across classes and additional utility “buttons”. Over the past few expansions, multiple classes got multiple Defensive Cooldowns (DCDs) and Offensive Cooldowns (OCDs) to compete with DCDs and OCDs other classes had. This led to bloat, so this was a good time to do something of a refresh.

 

 

So far in 7.0 the only role output balance change has been to slightly lower the damage of Fury which it should be noted, didn't even knock it off the top damage spot. The dummy parses for the spec all got deleted after the change and the fresh ones have reached 32kdps which is down from 33k originally.

 

There's hundreds of thousands of live fight logs which say the best and worst players are performing their designated role substantially better or worse depending on the spec and sometimes entire class.

 

Obviously that means fight length differences, potentially more mechanics to do, potentially failing dps or healing checks. Or the realistic approach is to not to bring the specs which are crippled from being in the same ballpark of output as the higher output ones.

 

But a petty nerf to Fury made the list and nothing else?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Gyronamics

[AwesomeTacoCat]

Also, the devs haven’t even mentioned anything about plans to revisit balance concerns in the near future. That’s arguably the biggest issue right now - even acknowledgement by devs that there’s a glaring problem in this area would be really nice.

[Ahwassa]

Any news on this topic? I feel like one of my nim groups is falling apart ...

And not many players want to raid anymore. (I´m not counting Nedra nim or the other farmable bosses)

 

I know it´s not high on the priority list because there are not that many nim raiders but still.

[Pricia]

Any news on this topic? I feel like one of my nim groups is falling apart ...

And not many players want to raid anymore. (I´m not counting Nedra nim or the other farmable bosses)

 

I know it´s not high on the priority list because there are not that many nim raiders but still.

 

I don't know, it seems everything in 7.0 caters to those nim raiders so keep pushing for balance for nim raiders and maybe we'll actually get somewhere.

[Ahwassa]

I don't know, it seems everything in 7.0 caters to those nim raiders so keep pushing for balance for nim raiders and maybe we'll actually get somewhere.

 

Doesn´t feel like it at all.

Most classes are not playable in Nim anymore and Dxun and Gods nim are only clearable by like the 1% of the 1% nim raiders in the game.

[Gyronamics]

Any news on this topic? I feel like one of my nim groups is falling apart ...

And not many players want to raid anymore. (I´m not counting Nedra nim or the other farmable bosses)

 

I know it´s not high on the priority list because there are not that many nim raiders but still.

 

The lack of developer communication despite the substantial discrepancy in class and spec that we can see from credible data sources leaves open the possibility that they believe it's fine.

 

By what measure? Obviously developer communication on the current situation would be required to clarify such a thing.

 

The more realistic players abandoned all crippled specs on PTS before 7.0 launched and so far they have been 100% correct in having no faith in class balance.

 

But as we saw, a developer made it a priority to do a petty nerf to Fury so someone made a decision there.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Gyronamics

[AdjeYo]

I don't know, it seems everything in 7.0 caters to those nim raiders so keep pushing for balance for nim raiders and maybe we'll actually get somewhere.

 

The only thing that caters to nim raiders in this expansion is the 328 and 330 gear being locked behind nims. Meanwhile they destroyed class balance, made tech frags so rare from everything but GSF (though that will be changed with 7.0.2 to some extent), makes us do heroics/world bosses to upgrade gear, slashed the amount of available ops weeklies each week (which they did for all weeklies, but has been reversed for most content, except ops, in a future update). Oh and they also overtuned most ops bosses to the point where most final bosses are nigh unbeatable. On top of that, they failed to release a single ops boss.

 

"everything in 7.0 caters to those nim raiders" is an incredibly strange statement.

Edited April 7, 2022 by AdjeYo

[AwesomeTacoCat]

The only thing that caters to nim raiders in this expansion is the 328 and 330 gear being locked behind nims. Meanwhile they destroyed class balance, made tech frags so rare from everything but GSF (though that will be changed with 7.0.2 to some extent), makes us do heroics/world bosses to upgrade gear, slashed the amount of available ops weeklies each week (which they did for all weeklies, but has been reversed for most content, except ops, in a future update). Oh and they also overtuned most ops bosses to the point where most final bosses are nigh unbeatable. On top of that, they failed to release a single ops boss.

 

"everything in 7.0 caters to those nim raiders" is an incredibly strange statement.

 

^ this

[Ahwassa]

So can we please get some information on the class balance topic?

 

If this take a year like in 6.0 I´m out. My 2 raidgroups were the reason I´m subscribed.

I have now 0,75 of 2 groups left.

 

I know it´s not a priority just like the healer balance and especially sorc heal is not a priority for Bioware.

As long as operative and merc are playable it´s perfectly fine for them.

 

The balance in 6.x for nightmare was not perfect but 10 times better than it is now.

So I´lll wait maybe for a month and then I´ll be out.

[Gyronamics]

It's probably worth noting that when Apex Vanguard was first killed in MM there was 1 ranged spec in the group.

 

Two marauders on the boss, one powertech farming the adds and one... arsenal merc

 

 

End of fight, DPS are at 30, 23, 20 and 20kdps, competitive numbers.

 

Yet one expac later the idea that an arsenal merc could be taken to the same fight as a equal weight player among marauders and powertechs is absurd.

 

7.0 class balance is poor.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Gyronamics

[ElZaguero]

It's probably worth noting that when Apex Vanguard was first killed in MM there was 1 ranged spec in the group.

 

Two marauders on the boss, one powertech farming the adds and one... arsenal merc

 

 

End of fight, DPS are at 30, 23, 20 and 20kdps, competitive numbers.

 

Yet one expac later the idea that an arsenal merc could be taken to the same fight as a equal weight player among marauders and powertechs is absurd.

 

7.0 class balance is poor.

 

"Poor" is a serious understatement.

And there are so many other things seriously wrong with 7.0 - the gearing fiasco is beyond depressing.I just cannot accept unmoddable gear. I just can't do it.

 

And BW doesn't seem to give a f***. They won't talk to us.They've had plenty of time to address the issues. I don't even know why I keep paying the monthly sub.

 

It's depressing.

[Pricia]

I'll keep this up as a solo player who is tired of taking forever to kill stuff on some of my toons.

[Blackrot]

"Poor" is a serious understatement.

And there are so many other things seriously wrong with 7.0 - the gearing fiasco is beyond depressing.I just cannot accept unmoddable gear. I just can't do it.

 

And BW doesn't seem to give a f***. They won't talk to us.They've had plenty of time to address the issues. I don't even know why I keep paying the monthly sub.

 

It's depressing.

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

Changes are coming at least with the bolster issues which is a start. Can't say for ive seen any comments about class balance though. Yes it's taken longer then it should have but no need to spread doom and gloom. Be patient a little longer youngling.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Blackrot

[Pricia]

https://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

They are listening. Changes are coming. Yes it's taken longer then it should have but no need to spread doom and gloom. Be patient a little longer youngling.

 

I see no mention of class balance.