Amunra-amunray Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Can you supply the links to this please? Splitting the queues will obviously increase queue times for players in both queues. I'd like it if the game prioritised premade vs premade more than it currently does, but splitting into solo and group benefits neither groups of players. MMO's are designed to be played in a group. I understand lots of players (the majority in fact), play primarily solo, but most game modes, Operations, Flashpoints, Arena, Warzones, are designed to be played as a group with the intent that you work with other players towards a common goal. Being able to play through these game modes in some form of solo capacity is there as a convenience, not as the pinnacle of the game mode itself. As has been said over and over in this thread, the problem lies with match making, and players unwillingness to take any initiative themselves to solve their own problems. I dont care what most MMO's do... and Eric Musco had a long thread quite some time ago saying groups are given priority over solos and that means that solo players are not given any options.... Teams should be fighting teams no matter what... not teams against others.... It is not fair, balanced or the like to have stacked teams that consistently have the best players on one side and the rest are shoved to the other team... it is creating a favoritism, it is creating a lack of fairness to other subscribers, and is causing the queues even now to die... the matches were popping so fast even in off peak hours and now I see the matches have fewer diversity amongst players and the same premade teams being on one side for 8 matches straight... The simple fact is more participation would exist if other players and subscribers felt it would be of benefit to them... the only thing this match queue benefits is a select group of players that stack teams at the expense of all other players.... and FYI the majority of players do not group up in unranked warzones.... As far as locating the thread from Eric Musco that is something you have to find for yourself... I know it exists or existed and I know this is how they built the queues... And Wins only is another reason the matches are slowing and less are playing they cannot even advance the missions for completing the warzone... causing more abandonment as people are not willing to waste their time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snave Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I dont care what most MMO's do... and Eric Musco had a long thread quite some time ago saying groups are given priority over solos and that means that solo players are not given any options.... Teams should be fighting teams no matter what... not teams against others.... Pretty much everyone is agreeing with you that teams should be fighting teams. This is a matchmaking problem, not a team problem. What does Musco mean by "priority"? Does he mean they get prioritised vs pugs, vs other teams, bumped up the queue for a faster pop? This really needs to be specified because "given priority", means nothing unless you specify what priority they're being given. It is not fair, balanced or the like to have stacked teams that consistently have the best players on one side and the rest are shoved to the other team... Even if warzones were completely randomly assigned (other than roles), you'd still have team imbalance based on the distribution of players. I understand we have the mythical hidden MMR for warzones, but most of the "best players" you're talking about play multiple alts of the same class, so this isn't as effective as you might think it is. And it's already not very effective. Basically, even with a purely solo queue you'd still have imbalance, and potentially more. it is creating a favoritism, it is creating a lack of fairness to other subscribers, and is causing the queues even now to die... the matches were popping so fast even in off peak hours and now I see the matches have fewer diversity amongst players and the same premade teams being on one side for 8 matches straight... If the queues are dying because of a constant premade presence, that means there are multiple premades in the queue, resulting in every game having premades. If there are that many premades in the queue, then simply matching them against each other would resolve your problem. So again, it's a matchmaking problem, not a group problem. If there's only one premade in the queue, and there's only one match going at any given moment for them to join, then the queue is already dead, making this point moot. If you're facing the same premade for 8 games in a row, try waiting until they get in a game and then queue. You may face another premade but what happens a lot of the time is, the pool of available players obviously increases once your match ends and most players immediately re-queue, so you're more likely to be placed in a match with a similar play composition. The simple fact is more participation would exist if other players and subscribers felt it would be of benefit to them... the only thing this match queue benefits is a select group of players that stack teams at the expense of all other players.... and FYI the majority of players do not group up in unranked warzones.... The simple fact is, the highest participation of warzones was during periods where most guilds ran premades. You make out you only ever face a premade without having one yourself, or a "superior" premade to the one you have. If the majority of players do not group up, then the majority of games shouldn't have premades in them, again making your point moot. And again, this is a matchmaking issue, not a group issue. As far as locating the thread from Eric Musco that is something you have to find for yourself... I know it exists or existed and I know this is how they built the queues... I don't know the post you are referring to, and you haven't given details on what it contained other than "priority" and "built the queues". I don't know what you specifically mean by either of these terms, and if you're quoting a bioware staff member on the issue maybe you should be more specific or, even better, link the post, so we know what you're talking about. The burden of proof isn't on us. And Wins only is another reason the matches are slowing and less are playing they cannot even advance the missions for completing the warzone... causing more abandonment as people are not willing to waste their time... I have no issue with wins being needed to progress a quest. I think a 20-minute lockout for leaving a game is too much when we're unable to filter maps, and can get backfilled in to an already lost game. The win requirement is there to incentivise players to try and win the game, rather than just farm numbers. If premades are happy to lose the map but with the damage game, I'm absolutely fine winning those games and by removing the win incentive, you actually encourage more roflstomping premades to play the game mode. TLDR - No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amunra-amunray Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Um the issue is that a premade team usually consists of a pocket healer tank and at least one good dps, then they also get another group or better stat players additionally with those teams and then those with low stats, solo and the like are placed on the other team.... and the pattern is quite noticeable even if those who say this is not functioning this way then why is it always framed this way in each match... Wins only need to be removed! Groups need their own Queue! And Solos should be for those ramping up... or refuse to or dislike grouping or smaller guilds who cannot or dont have the means... Anything else is hot air and is supporting a broken perpetuating system favored only to a specific area of subscribers and not all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samcuu Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Saying "a premade usually gets with another premade or good players" is complete nonsense and there is no way to prove that, your personal experience is anecdotal evidence. Last week I played enough warzones to get my weekly done 3 times. I got against a double premade once in an entire night of pvp. See how anecdotal evidence works? My experience is completely different from yours, doesn't mean either of us is right tho. Anyways what server are you talking about? I've honestly noticed that certain servers have a better mix of players and skill levels than others. I've already stated my opinion. The pvp community in this game is already small, and has been killed by biowares bad decisions/lack of content. If you take away the only fun they have which is playing with their friends in unranked wzs, pvp will really die. I don't mind having wins counting it might get more ppl in queue, but as Snave has already said that's just more fodder for the farming they enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snave Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Um the issue is that a premade team usually consists of a pocket healer tank and at least one good dps, Not necessarily, and the game does match roles within the warzone. Saying "at least one good dps", you are projecting the idea that premade players are inherently better than those that queue solo. This isn't the case, at all, and really just shows the level of delusion you have on this topic. then they also get another group or better stat players additionally with those teams and then those with low stats, solo and the like are placed on the other team.... and the pattern is quite noticeable even if those who say this is not functioning this way then why is it always framed this way in each match... Again, not necessarily. The match making cannot factor in skill other than the "hidden MMR". The only noticeable pattern I can see from you are: You are always vs a premade You are always vs better players The premade you are vs only ever contains the best players on the server You always lose You could quite easily stream or record an evening of you playing and then make it available for the players and developers to review. If the situation is as bad as you make it out to be, then this should be very easy to provide, and it would dramatically help your case. I stream, have watched other streamers, and I have never seen anything close to what you are describing. Wins only need to be removed! Groups need their own Queue! And Solos should be for those ramping up... or refuse to or dislike grouping or smaller guilds who cannot or dont have the means... As I mentioned earlier, removing the win only component actually encourages number farming and focus on only killing red, which is usually why premades are queueing. Removing the win only requirement would make your situation worse. Group queue would essentially be the old 8 man ranked system and this game doesn't have the player base, PvP infrastructure, or devs savvy enough to make it work. Anything else is hot air and is supporting a broken perpetuating system favored only to a specific area of subscribers and not all! This isn't the case, and I strongly get the impression that if there was a solo only queue, you'd still be on here complaining about losing all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Pretty much everyone is agreeing with you that teams should be fighting teams. This is a matchmaking problem, not a team problem. This. Premades, are not the problem. People absolutely should be able to play with friends. what is the problem is those premades being matched against whoever else happens to be in queue regardless of skill level or any other considerations and those people getting obliterated. That combined with those of us that always seem to be the "attempt to balance it" by putting us as better than average solo players in with the lesser skilled players to try to give it a fighting chance when the reality is that were just getting thrown to the dogs. Matchmaking is the problem, plain and simple. Its oversimplifying to blame the premades alone, it truly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagikFingerz Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Here's an idea (if this is even possible): If a group is queued but a second group is not found (for the opposing team), split the group up when the pop timer appears, along with a message saying "Your group has been split up due to matchmaking reasons, you may not end up on the same team as your groupmates". Everyone in the group will still be in the same match, so you're still playing with your friends, but can opt out by clicking "Leave queue" at the timer without incurring a lockout. This way we avoid splitting the queue into two, and also eliminate premade vs pug scenarios. Would anyone be opposed to this? Edited April 1, 2022 by MagikFingerz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Here's an idea (if this is even possible): If a group is queued but a second group is not found (for the opposing team), split the group up when the pop timer appears, along with a message saying "Your group has been split up due to matchmaking reasons, you may not end up on the same team as your groupmates". Everyone in the group will still be in the same match, so you're still playing with your friends, but can opt out by clicking "Leave queue" at the timer without incurring a lockout. This way we avoid splitting the queue into two, and also eliminate premade vs pug scenarios. Would anyone be opposed to this? No, it defeats the point of playing together. What it should do it put players of higher skill level on the other side if possible to balance out the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sounders_Fan Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 and Eric Musco had a long thread quite some time ago saying groups are given priority over solos and that means that solo players are not given any options How long ago? was this when the PVP population was a lot larger than today? perhaps even at a healthy enough number that matchmaking could work? Does something from Mr. Musco from several years ago still apply to today? there could easily be changes to the matchmaking and other systems in place that are contradictory to the statement from "some time ago" that you are holding on to. and there are just as many pre-mades out there that frankly are not very good as there are pre-mades that are actually good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amunra-amunray Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 premades are not the issue, group priority in match queues are... And they are given priority over solo players... And No where in the world does a pro team play a high school team they are different brackets and play and this should be the same case... groups should not be able to farm solos And more are playing the game today then the days of Queues will slow.... mur mur... if we add a second queue... the only reason they would slow is the premade teams would stop playing group queues and refuse to play solos and other players will then populate the queues are it rebalances the match queues and people get used to it... But the current system is one sided and favors a select group of people and it benefits their conquest points over others and smaller guilds... Group and Solo match queue should be added no excuse period! And wins only should be removed as well period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amunra-amunray Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 How long ago? was this when the PVP population was a lot larger than today? perhaps even at a healthy enough number that matchmaking could work? Does something from Mr. Musco from several years ago still apply to today? there could easily be changes to the matchmaking and other systems in place that are contradictory to the statement from "some time ago" that you are holding on to. and there are just as many pre-mades out there that frankly are not very good as there are pre-mades that are actually good. and instead of asking me about Musco's quote... ask him... he will verify it for you....I know what I read and saw.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TmoneyTime Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 premades are not the issue, group priority in match queues are... And they are given priority over solo players... And No where in the world does a pro team play a high school team they are different brackets and play and this should be the same case... groups should not be able to farm solos And more are playing the game today then the days of Queues will slow.... mur mur... if we add a second queue... the only reason they would slow is the premade teams would stop playing group queues and refuse to play solos and other players will then populate the queues are it rebalances the match queues and people get used to it... But the current system is one sided and favors a select group of people and it benefits their conquest points over others and smaller guilds... Group and Solo match queue should be added no excuse period! And wins only should be removed as well period! I'm going to be 100 with you. I checked out your YouTube and how you play. I don't think after watching that you can really say that. The reason why you feel this way is that your getting skill gapped in these games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sounders_Fan Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 and instead of asking me about Musco's quote... ask him... he will verify it for you....I know what I read and saw.... you are the one touting what was supposedly said by Musco; not him. either provide a link to it for context or stop making it up to support your asinine arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagikFingerz Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 No, it defeats the point of playing together. What it should do it put players of higher skill level on the other side if possible to balance out the advantage. Playing on different teams defeats the purpose entirely? I don't know about you, but I'd happily sacrifice having all 3 of my friends on the same team if it leads to more balanced matches. We're still playing together, just not all of us towards the same objective. But if you just want to roflstomp pugs with your friends, then of course you don't want things to change And the whole point of this is that premades make balancing impossible in a lot of the matches. If the four best players in the match is grouped, there's simply no way to balance that out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TmoneyTime Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 Playing on different teams defeats the purpose entirely? I don't know about you, but I'd happily sacrifice having all 3 of my friends on the same team if it leads to more balanced matches. We're still playing together, just not all of us towards the same objective. But if you just want to roflstomp pugs with your friends, then of course you don't want things to change And the whole point of this is that premades make balancing impossible in a lot of the matches. If the four best players in the match is grouped, there's simply no way to balance that out... You can balance it out by simply not making the match until the mmr is correct. This is what happens in other games. High elo ques take way longer. The players at that level will wait as proven by other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amunra-amunray Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) you are the one touting what was supposedly said by Musco; not him. either provide a link to it for context or stop making it up to support your asinine arguments OMg do your own research and many know this was stated just cause you do not is not my issue! On another note... the only fix is different match queues Blending both queues is not working and now its gotten worse where only premades win warzones now... and rarely if not occasionally pug groups win... cause of the class variants... usually the premade has a pocket heals or even two and the other gets no healers etc... Groups or premades should not be competing or fighting against non groups PERIOD in no arena is this balance or fair or good for all subscribers it only favors a select group of people and it allows them to gain higher conquest points and faster.... Both of which is stacking benefits in a single group of people's direction and does not allow others to have equal chance. only those who want the easy free play and benefited award system of unranked warzones are the proponents to keep things as they are! unfair and unbalanced Edited April 4, 2022 by Amunra-amunray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snave Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 OMg do your own research and many know this was stated just cause you do not is not my issue! No. I've asked you several times what exactly you mean by "priority" and "built matches" but you refuse to answer any of them and then direct people to look for one forum post out of the many done by Eric. Either SPECIFY what exactly you're complaining about, provide evidence of what you're talking about, or shut up about the whole thing. At this point, I'm more inclined to view you as a forum troll and just report your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sounders_Fan Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 OMg do your own research and many know this was stated just cause you do not is not my issue! Got it; the so called quote from Musco doesn't exist and you just made it up and named dropped him because you think it furthers your argument. Snave is correct; you are just a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolvel Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 a premade of story players = a granked team that qued regs by mistake That seems like a fair match since they're both premades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 Playing on different teams defeats the purpose entirely? I don't know about you, but I'd happily sacrifice having all 3 of my friends on the same team if it leads to more balanced matches. We're still playing together, just not all of us towards the same objective. But if you just want to roflstomp pugs with your friends, then of course you don't want things to change And the whole point of this is that premades make balancing impossible in a lot of the matches. If the four best players in the match is grouped, there's simply no way to balance that out... Youre preaching to the choir, the only thing ive ever championed is balance matches and let the skill win out... but i do not think this is how you do that. You can be on the same team if the queue would put people of the same skill level on the other ide as much as possible. Maybe even more of them if not in group with comms. There are many ways to balance this without splitting up teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TmoneyTime Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 Youre preaching to the choir, the only thing ive ever championed is balance matches and let the skill win out... but i do not think this is how you do that. You can be on the same team if the queue would put people of the same skill level on the other ide as much as possible. Maybe even more of them if not in group with comms. There are many ways to balance this without splitting up teams. You might have too though. It isn't ideal but lets say only 16 people are in que. If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to split the teams to make the match better. I don't know how I feel about it. I can see arguments both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sounders_Fan Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 before the big merge of servers that left us with only the 2 NA servers they did cross server queues within certain clusters of servers. would it be useful to do cross server queuing again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pallais Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) before the big merge of servers that left us with only the 2 NA servers they did cross server queues within certain clusters of servers. would it be useful to do cross server queuing again? They've never done cross server queues. That request is probably right behind hood toggles in the request master list. Just having regional (EU, NA) cross server queues would be a big help with PvP pops in Warzones. On the premade issue, I know it is hard for some people to accept, but sometimes you just get, umm, coordination-challenged teammates. An opposite team that plays objectives and works together as solo players can look an awful lot like a premade when your team can't fight on the node or find its way out of mid. As Snave said, people tend to immediately requeue. If you had a bad match just take a break for five minutes and then requeue. You have a better chance of getting different people to play against / with. Edit: Cleaned up some tortured phrasing. Edited April 5, 2022 by Pallais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amunra-amunray Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 No. I've asked you several times what exactly you mean by "priority" and "built matches" but you refuse to answer any of them and then direct people to look for one forum post out of the many done by Eric. Either SPECIFY what exactly you're complaining about, provide evidence of what you're talking about, or shut up about the whole thing. At this point, I'm more inclined to view you as a forum troll and just report your posts. Eric specifically spelled out that Groups were given priority in match queue selection process over people queing solo, then it was also stated that statistics of wins loses plays a small part as does class and gear.... And just cause you have not been around long enough or have difficulty finding it... doesn't warrant its lack of validity! And now off peak hours are suffering queue pops because of this system they feel is working well and as intended! I have see even on weekends the pops are significantly slower and have more arenas happening with this method of match selections... Its broken, unfair, and heavy handed to to aid Groups to be able to take advantage of lousy players and then people who queue solo wind up on those team consistently every match.... the pattern is there whether or not some Social media expert at SWTOR actually said anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 You might have too though. It isn't ideal but lets say only 16 people are in que. If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to split the teams to make the match better. I don't know how I feel about it. I can see arguments both ways. Perhaps, but in my view iF there are only 16 in queue and 4 are a premade team, then you should put the 4-6 higher rated players on the other side to balance the advantage. Will it always come out even, no, but its the best we can hope for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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