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Premades are hurting pvp participation


ralphieceaser

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2 hours ago, Tasaas said:

The problem with dividing the pvp Q is simple math.  This game does not have the population to support a seperate loner and group Q.

 

My guess is that it would far easier support a solo queue over a premade queue. 

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9 hours ago, Tasaas said:

The problem with dividing the pvp Q is simple math.  This game does not have the population to support a seperate loner and group Q.

It is a flawed argument because the game have a population even for mids (well... at least for one match at time... most of the time).

So i am 100% sure there will be no problems with solo queue at 80. Alternatively it might even bring more 📈players into that damned solo queue because silly pug players will not be stomped so hard with premades and maybe even be able to finally learn how to play without this pressure. :csw_yoda:

 

Premades will suffer, but do you want to care about the majority or the annoying minority? Guess who is who by yourself.

 

inb4 "It is an MMO and we just want to play with our "friends" why should we suffer with longer or non-existent queues!"

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11 hours ago, Tasaas said:

The problem with dividing the pvp Q is simple math.  This game does not have the population to support a seperate loner and group Q.

 

Sounds like a you problem.

The solution is simple: You people just need to make friends who like to play in premade vs premade so you'll have someone to play against. 

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Long post, sorry, not sorry 🤷🏻‍♀️

It would be awesome if BioWare were more forthcoming with player data & statistics like some other games are, but they aren’t. So we all try & guess because BioWare keep us permanently in the dark. Not even releasing their own massaged figures like some other games do.

They obviously have the ability to track how people queue & play. They can see how many only queue solo, how many only queue in pre-made, how many queue both & what the overall break down is on pre-made sizes & how often. 

They can see how quickly solo people stop queuing after they start encountering pre-made vs pug situations. They can see what the win-loss ratios are. They have access to the pop times, but do they deep dive to find out the reasons?

BioWare literally have the ability to deep dive into all these statistics. My worry is that they don’t or they don’t dive deep enough or ask the right questions or interpret the data from a non bias view than just wanting the fastest pops.

If they do go into it & it’s with preconceived goals like pop times, they may only look for data that supports that goal & they may miss other data that is having a negative or positive affect if they aren’t looking for it. 

Im not suggesting BioWare give players proprietary information like subscription numbers or player status or any player identifying info. But they could give us some data that would allow the really smart maths & statistics players in the community to help interpret things for BioWare & us. 

Breaking down complex maths problems, numbers & statistics is the one thing the community has done really well over the years to support the game & the community as a whole. And have often been able to show BioWare where problems are that need to be adjusted or fixed, including exploits.

Maybe BioWare could consider providing some raw data about the pvp population & how it plays & queues up. Then let the math’s & statistics stars in our community try & make sense of patterns & trends. Something that BioWare might not have the time or inclination to be able to do as in-depth as some of our community does. BioWare might not even have anyone on staff anymore that even specialises in this sort or number crunching. 

IMO, BioWare is currently squandering a free resource of dedicated & passionate community players who I’m sure would gladly help if asked or just provide the data & they’d probably do it without being asked. 

It would certainly provide everyone a better understanding of how swtor players prefer to pvp. And any game changes made would be easier to track wether they have had a positive, negative or neutral affect on community. They may even be able to identify negative issues before they become a major issue.

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so i got grouped with a 6m kill team last night.  they didn't do a single objective.  just kept running around as a pack killing people in singles and pairs between south and the middle of the map.  real even fights there...  it was so pathetic because they didn't actually kill as people as they could have.  they didn't rotate around to maximize their kills at all.  should have been an easy win, but no, it was an easy loss.  if you wanna TDM, just split your large premade and go do arenas.

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28 minutes ago, Chryptyk said:

so i got grouped with a 6m kill team last night.  they didn't do a single objective.  just kept running around as a pack killing people in singles and pairs between south and the middle of the map.  real even fights there...  it was so pathetic because they didn't actually kill as people as they could have.  they didn't rotate around to maximize their kills at all.  should have been an easy win, but no, it was an easy loss.  if you wanna TDM, just split your large premade and go do arenas.

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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22 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

6v1, 6v2, 6v3 is real fun. yeah....  i call that boring.  the fight is over in seconds.

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On 3/18/2023 at 3:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

i agree that leavers are a problem and its good that they get significant queue lockout after leaving a warzone

oh people weren't dropping.  i was talking about the 6m gank team killing 1 or 2 or 3 people at a time and how that is so lopsided it's NOT fun at all.

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6 hours ago, Chryptyk said:

oh people weren't dropping.  i was talking about the 6m gank team killing 1 or 2 or 3 people at a time and how that is so lopsided it's NOT fun at all.

rik was being disingenuous. 

deserter debuff needs to be abolished. 

Why do premade players care about a deserter debuff?  They ignore the objectives, so winning is not their goal, and the deserter debuff disproportionately targets people with game issues or internet issues beyond our control.

It

needs

to

be

ABOLISHED!!!

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On 3/18/2023 at 4:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

When you're not focused on winning it is griefing.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 4:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

i agree that leavers are a problem and its good that they get significant queue lockout after leaving a warzone

There is an inherent conflict of interests here.  Why should people play a game when the premades are DELIBERATELY not focused on winning???  Why should they be penalized for leaving when THEIR time is being wasted? 

That is beyond disrespectful, but you expect us to conform to your notions of "fun".

Edited by Sappharan
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I'm logging off pvp for the night. The same premade group of 4 marauders is dominating sub 80. I had to fight them 3 times in a row and it isn't fun. They aren't even trying to win the warzones, they are focusing on one player at a time and deleting players in seconds.

"Get your own premade!"

screw that, premades should be in their own queue against other premades and if they have to wait too long they can queue solo like everyone else. If premade groups are a small percentage of players, why is Bioware catering to them over everyone else?

Keep catering to the smallest percentage of PvPers making PvP an unbearable experience. I'm sure it won't hurt the game.

Edited by remylion
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8 minutes ago, remylion said:

I'm logging off pvp for the night. The same premade group of 4 marauders is dominating sub 80. I had to fight them 3 times in a row and it isn't fun. They aren't even trying to win the warzones, they are focusing on one player at a time and deleting them in seconds.

"Get your own premade!"

screw that, premades should be in their own queue against other premades and if they have to wait too long they can queue solo like everyone else. If premade groups are a small percentage of players, why is Bioware catering to them over everyone else?

Keep catering to the people making pvp an unbearable experience. I'm sure it won't hurt the game.

Clearly, you don't understand the concept of entitlement.  The deserter debuff trap allows them to have fun wasting our time because: 

On 3/17/2023 at 2:19 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

but still hold this opinion:

On 3/18/2023 at 4:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

i agree that leavers are a problem and its good that they get significant queue lockout after leaving a warzone

which allows them to have fun wasting our time because: 

On 3/17/2023 at 2:19 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

but still hold this opinion:

On 3/18/2023 at 4:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

i agree that leavers are a problem and its good that they get significant queue lockout after leaving a warzone

which allows them to have fun wasting our time because: 

On 3/17/2023 at 2:19 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

unlucky, but there are plenty of premade around where ppl are just playing for fun, not always focusing to win, crazy concept I know, playing to have fun :D

but still hold this opinion:

On 3/18/2023 at 4:11 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

i agree that leavers are a problem and its good that they get significant queue lockout after leaving a warzone

...

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play to have fun and if you aren't having fun there is a function that allows you to leave the warzone, not seeing the problem here

the deserter debuff disincentives you to not regularly leaving warzones, as that isn't good for your teammates/game quality, but unless you are that kind of player that drops two-three minutes in the hutball cause the enemy scored in hutball first/planted the bomb in voidstar or got 2 nodes in novare while u only got 1, it's not an issue. and if you are that kinda player, that desert debuff is working as intended

if your regularly leaving warzones cause of connectivity issues, it seems like wrongly targeted anger to get mad at bioware, its a you issue thats spilling over and causing your warzone teammates to have a worse game experience, fix the real actual core issue instead...

playing to win isn't mandatory nor something that Bioware forces warzone participants to do, perhaps you have misinterpreted the CoC/ToS 

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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2 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

play to have fun and if you aren't having fun there is a function that allows you to leave the warzone, not seeing the problem here

the deserter debuff disincentives you to not regularly leaving warzones, as that isn't good for your teammates/game quality, but unless you are that kind of player that drops two-three minutes in the hutball cause the enemy scored in hutball first/planted the bomb in voidstar or got 2 nodes in novare while u only got 1, it's not an issue. and if you are that kinda player, that desert debuff is working as intended

if your regularly leaving warzones cause of connectivity issues, it seems like wrongly targeted anger to get mad at bioware, its a you issue thats spilling over and causing your warzone teammates to have a worse game experience, fix the real actual core issue instead...

playing to win isn't mandatory nor something that Bioware forces warzone participants to do, perhaps you have misinterpreted the CoC/ToS 

The lockout isn't working in any way shape or form. I have friends who are bugged when when they hit exit at the end of the match it locks them out. They've sent tickets and bioware either locks out the ticket or gives them the copy paste telling them to check the forums.

Lockout needs to be completely removed until they find a way to make a system that isn't completely broken and punishing to people who don't even quit the match.

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8 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

play to have fun and if you aren't having fun there is a function that allows you to leave the warzone, not seeing the problem here

the deserter debuff disincentives you to not regularly leaving warzones, as that isn't good for your teammates/game quality, but unless you are that kind of player that drops two-three minutes in the hutball cause the enemy scored in hutball first/planted the bomb in voidstar or got 2 nodes in novare while u only got 1, it's not an issue. and if you are that kinda player, that desert debuff is working as intended

if your regularly leaving warzones cause of connectivity issues, it seems like wrongly targeted anger to get mad at bioware, its a you issue thats spilling over and causing your warzone teammates to have a worse game experience, fix the real actual core issue instead...

playing to win isn't mandatory nor something that Bioware forces warzone participants to do, perhaps you have misinterpreted the CoC/ToS 

Sophistry.  Who are you attempting to deceive here?  Me, or you?

You did not answer my question.  I did not expect, and have not received a serious rebuttal to the question.  How do you justify a deserter debuff in the name of

8 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

your teammates/game quality

in light of premades farming and "not always focusing to win?"

Hmmm?

So the fundamental question is:  What is "game quality?"

For me (and the vast majority of others) it is a balanced game where everyone tries to win.  Premades ruin our game quality, especially when they do not try to win, in a variety of ways that I will not delineate here.  There should be a debuff penalty for that. 

What do you think of my suggestion?  It's a rhetorical question.  Your answer is meaningless.

Edited by Sappharan
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12 hours ago, Sappharan said:

Sophistry.  Who are you attempting to deceive here?  Me, or you?

You did not answer my question.  I did not expect, and have not received a serious rebuttal to the question.  How do you justify a deserter debuff in the name of

in light of premades farming and "not always focusing to win?"

Hmmm?

So the fundamental question is:  What is "game quality?"

For me (and the vast majority of others) it is a balanced game where everyone tries to win.  Premades ruin our game quality, especially when they do not try to win, in a variety of ways that I will not delineate here.  There should be a debuff penalty for that. 

What do you think of my suggestion?  It's a rhetorical question.  Your answer is meaningless.

I don't think they are trying to deceive anyone.  I think that some people only care about themselves, and don't care about how their actions affect others.  Some people just enjoy mistreating others.  I can't say that I really understand why, but I know enough to know that it's true.

It's understandable for people to want to play with their friends.  I makes sense that they group up when doing so.  The problem not with those people, it's with the game, and the willingness of the devs to place premade groups of people in the same match as those who solo queue.

The fact that some people group up just so that they can dominate matches, and that they find so much pleasure in griefing other people is a secondary problem that is made possible thanks to the primary problem that the devs have enabled their behavior by allowing the practice.

This will obviously remain a problem for as long as the devs allow it to continue.  Separate queues need to be implemented, and proper matchmaking that is designed to better balance teams would go a long way towards fixing the problem.

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19 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

The lockout isn't working in any way shape or form. I have friends who are bugged when when they hit exit at the end of the match it locks them out. They've sent tickets and bioware either locks out the ticket or gives them the copy paste telling them to check the forums.

Lockout needs to be completely removed until they find a way to make a system that isn't completely broken and punishing to people who don't even quit the match.

Report bugs to Bioware and if it's confirmed as a bug in the feature it will be fixed, if this was a common issue it would be added to the known issue list and adjusted, most likely its fringe case or just misunderstand of how the feature functions.

 

14 hours ago, Sappharan said:

Sophistry.  Who are you attempting to deceive here?  Me, or you?

You did not answer my question.  I did not expect, and have not received a serious rebuttal to the question.  How do you justify a deserter debuff in the name of

in light of premades farming and "not always focusing to win?"

Hmmm?

So the fundamental question is:  What is "game quality?"

For me (and the vast majority of others) it is a balanced game where everyone tries to win.  Premades ruin our game quality, especially when they do not try to win, in a variety of ways that I will not delineate here.  There should be a debuff penalty for that. 

What do you think of my suggestion?  It's a rhetorical question.  Your answer is meaningless.

I have no intention to deceive anyone nor do i work for bioware so i can't answer your question, all i can do is point you towards the changes Bioware have made and the reasons that they have made for them. Bioware creates incentives to make players play in a specific way, but in the end, all of us spend our free time on this game and are allowed to enjoy it the way we all see fit, be that playing with our friends in a group or alone, it's up to you to decide for yourself, however, you cannot decide for others.

Perhaps that's where your misunderstanding originates from, you are entitled to enjoy the game the way you like, but so is everyone else :)

Edit: I agree there should be a debuff penalty for intentionally ruining the game for others, seemingly bioware agree considering they introduced the deserter penalty for that specific category of players to discourage such behaviour.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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3 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

Report bugs to Bioware and if it's confirmed as a bug in the feature it will be fixed, if this was a common issue it would be added to the known issue list and adjusted, most likely its fringe case or just misunderstand of how the feature functions.

 

 

There's a nearly unlimited number of bugs not listed on their known issues post that people have brought up for years. The lockout feature is bad and is ruining pvp. Even if that wasn't an issue the hypotheticals to it being horrible are numerous. For one how often does it heppen where you get 5+ hutballs in a row?

Or a more real thing that's happened to me personally. I had 14 hypergates in a row witch obscenely long queue times. Do they honestly expect people not to leave matches where there's horrendous matchmaking that they refuse to fix. Do they really expect people to take an a$$ bruising from the groups that run 8 man madness stacks match after match without leaving those meme games? Nah better to punish those people who don't wanna play those with 6 hour lockouts.

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33 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

There's a nearly unlimited number of bugs not listed on their known issues post that people have brought up for years. The lockout feature is bad and is ruining pvp. Even if that wasn't an issue the hypotheticals to it being horrible are numerous. For one how often does it heppen where you get 5+ hutballs in a row?

Or a more real thing that's happened to me personally. I had 14 hypergates in a row witch obscenely long queue times. Do they honestly expect people not to leave matches where there's horrendous matchmaking that they refuse to fix. Do they really expect people to take an a$$ bruising from the groups that run 8 man madness stacks match after match without leaving those meme games? Nah better to punish those people who don't wanna play those with 6 hour lockouts.

yeah. it really is hypocritical to penalize desertion when there's no map choice, and there's no way to enforce that players try to win. I cannot fathom how leaving a match is more detrimental to game in aggregate than players (especially in grps) signing up to play one kind of game (objective-based WZs) and then ignoring the rules of that game to go play their own game. it's literally like signing up for a chess tournament and then playing checkers...which is fine, i guess, if you're only doing that with and against npcs, but when it directly affects the game experience of players who signed up and are trying to play the game mode they signed up for?

I cannot tell if BW cares too much or not at all about WZs. if they don't care that players completely ignore win conditions, then they're not serious business, right? ok. then who cares if someone leaves? is the person who would leave going to do anything constructive when stuck there AFKing? it's funny. there's no rated anymore. none of this stuff matters to the highly skilled players. I think what BW has created is the perfect storm for highly skilled players to screw around with the larger population of "space barbies" who flood the WZs and arenas b/c they're the ones drooling over grindable prizes that carry no indication of skill or status with them. they aren't even trophies. they don't represent anything more than "I queued a lot."

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7 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

Edit: I agree there should be a debuff penalty for intentionally ruining the game for others, seemingly bioware agree considering they introduced the deserter penalty for that specific category of players to discourage such behaviour.

So you agree that premades intentionally "not always focusing to win" should be penalized?  Good :)  I believe they should be penalized severely.  

btw, the only thing I misunderstand is your hypocrisy in celebrating a deserter debuff while concomitantly making excuses for players who premade and are only there to kill and ruining the quality of matches. 

And no, we are not entitled to enjoy the game as we please...hence rules, such as those in place to report win trading.  Since win trading is bannable, so too should be the players in premades that endeavor to delay a win as long as possible, or do not try to win at all. 

And you have STILL not answered the question.  What is "game quality" to you? 

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