Itemization in 7.0

[ExarSun]

So where is the BIS gear from PvP and GSF then? Crafting? Most MMO's I have played have a top gear reachable through those and not only Raids LoL. Why dont they confess they are catering to some very small discord group friends/minority and call it day.

[JakRoanin]

I never said they needed an advantage. I even state that I myself will most likely not get these gear. I will most likely be running a lot of Flashpoints to gear up. I am simply saying that the reward should fit the work you put into it.

 

The "work" some people put into MM Raiding is the same amount (if not less) then I put into running through Mek-sha with my disability. Don't discount Solo players time and energy as "less valuable" than Elite Content players. How is my time, energy, and money somehow 'not good enough.' I am someone who tried over, and over, to do SM and Vet group content and failed because I physically could not do it. My guild was generous and understanding, but the pain I got in my hands literally made me cry (it takes a lot of pain to make me cry). You say story players don't work hard enough to earn BiS gear. I hope that JackieKo or Mr. Musco anyone will read this thread and see sense.

[Anishor]

I have not seen any proof that people on the theorycrafting discord have pushed them in this direction, I've seen a lot of people on that discord against these changes.

[jkdshbr]

 

We'll be keeping an eye on this thread to answer questions that may have not been answered in the post.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric

 

Just circling back to this after over 250 comments, will we be hearing from the Bioware team in this thread? It's not boosting my confidence that this announcement has caused huge outcry and Bioware is ignoring the reaction.

 

I would very much like to know: What will I, as a solo player, have to "look forward to that makes [my] characters stronger" when I hit item level 226 and can't even modify my gear? How does that philosophy from the article relate to this definitive end point at which I can't even move my stats around because I don't enjoy raiding and my body doesn't allow the multiple hours of commitment?

 

From my side of the exchange, reaching 226 is the opposite of something to look forward to, as it marks the end of me having anything to pursue.

[Exly]

That's fair enough. I'll leave you with a parting thought. How many casual solo players do you reckon has a full set of 300 augments currently? Have they stopped playing the game or are unable to complete solo content because they can't get their hands on 300 augments and had to settle for 286 augments?

 

I don't know. I know that I don't have them. I made the choice to sell the mats for credits because I didn't need them. That being said, I do support the idea that anyone that wants them should have access to them, so I did like it when they made them more widely available.

 

Now, I will probably get them in 7.0 if the mats become more available, and the price that people will pay for them goes down. But if their price holds, then I'll keep selling the mats and pocket the credits, and be just as happy.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Exly

[JakRoanin]

Just circling back to this after over 250 comments, will we be hearing from the Bioware team in this thread? It's not boosting my confidence that this announcement has caused huge outcry and Bioware is ignoring the reaction.

 

I would very much like to know: What will I, as a solo player, have to "look forward to that makes [my] characters stronger" when I hit item level 226 and can't even modify my gear? How does that philosophy from the article relate to this definitive end point at which I can't even move my stats around because I don't enjoy raiding and my body doesn't allow the multiple hours of commitment?

 

From my side of the exchange, reaching 226 is the opposite of something to look forward to, as it marks the end of me having anything to pursue.

 

This is so disappointing on so many levels that not even the CommunityTeam bot has bothered to be active here. Maybe JackieKo and Mr. Musco are in meetings, but I have never, ever, been so disappointed in the lack of response before.

[Phaedruss]

That's fair enough. I'll leave you with a parting thought. How many casual solo players do you reckon has a full set of 300 augments currently? Have they stopped playing the game or are unable to complete solo content because they can't get their hands on 300 augments and had to settle for 286 augments?

 

This gear is obtainable by everyone through the GTN or Tech Frags. To be honest though (and many have expressed this since their release) those augs should never have even been released. They did absolutely nothing for the game. They weren't required for even the hardest content in the game, so the point of them is beyond me.

[Genophage]

When the best equipment goes to Nightmare players at 7.0, I'm out! Swtor was finally fun and you could equip every character very well to cause maximum damage, if this only goes to hand-picked players in the future, I don't feel like it anymore!

[Meiran]

This ^. 7.0 should be delayed. Its better to have a working HAPPY 11th anniversary, then a broken hated and reviled 10th anniversary.

 

Also the other worrying thing is the mass amount of incoming bugs. ON TOP of this negative feedback/outrage? Oh man......its going to be bad.

 

Also slightly off topic, but Battlefield 2042 launches on Nov 12th. Its an EA game as well. And the trailer that just dropped is dropped frame rates. The Beta was full of bugs and broken. The reason I bring this up, is that's a NEW game with TONS more devs and money funneled into it, how much more so do you think 7.0 will be broken?

 

Also the other reason I say to delay 7.0 is for the devs/employees. Trying to jam THIS amount of changes and new things into the end of the year? AND with this amount of negativity from players? It is not going to go well. Please please PLEASE delay 7.0. I think most others will agree. Yeah, there will be some who are upset that can't play "NEW SHINYS NOW!:mad:" but those are people just throwing tantrums and I highly doubt that they are the majority. I think the majority would be ok with a delay, too refine more of these changes, tweek them more and polish them up. AND the devs get more breathing room and don't need to stress over it WITH a time crunch on top of it.

 

Please delay, for both the players sake and the devs sake. I don't want to see this game end, and its a symbiotic relationship between us and the devs. Please don't make it toxic.

 

Agreed. Delay 7.0. Introduce SOME new things, such as Seasons 2.0 (and maybe weapons in outfit), but nothing of substance till you fix this.

[velvet_illusionZ]

To miss JackieKo,

If yould want to manage a mmo with only a few people left go on with what you have planed, if you want to make money-don't do this nonesense....we don't want this,we won't play this!

[LtGeneralGezlin]

Hey folks,

 

With the release of our Itemization in 7.0 article, we wanted to add some clarity around some of the details of that article in addition to providing some supplementary information.

 

We'll be keeping an eye on this thread to answer questions that may have not been answered in the post.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric

 

I have a few questions;

 

1. With the change to the Social Rewards system, Will new Social items be introduced? Maybe bring back some of the old Flashpoint gear as social armor or something? And if you do introduce new Social items, will they be Legacy Bound?

 

2. I know that there was just a Double Rewards event last week, but since this was posted after the event ended, I wanted to ask, with the removal of Renown in 7.0, will we get another Double Rewards event before 7.0's release?

 

3. Will the items on the DvL vendors, such as the Arcann customizations, the mounts, and the like, be available for credits in 7.0?

 

4. Since Renown is being removed, what will happen to the Renown vendors on the fleet, such as the ones that sell the old Galactic Command mounts, and Pets, and the Renown Vendor will the Space Guardian Set?

 

also, will we FINALLY see the empty shells for the old Tier 1-4 Galactic Command Armors and Weapons released as well?

[AdjeYo]

Depending on the exact stat values of solo gear vs nim gear, I really don't see why having a couple of higher iLVL's in the NiM is such a big issue for solo players. One of the annoying things for me, and many raiders with me in 6.0 is that you hit 306 most effectively by just spamming flashpoints. Meaning that when you actually get to doing nim operations, your gear progression stops entirely. That's kind of annoying in the endgame of an mmo, where the main progression after getting to max level is improving your gear.

 

If for whatever reason you can't or don't want to do nightmare operations, that's fine. But it's not that Bioware is taking away something from you, they are just adding something for another group of people. Think of it this way: If Bioware were to have nim operations drop the same tier gear as max level solo gear, does that improve anything for you in the slightest? You still have the same gear, the same gear progression that you had before, you're just taking away that little extra something for others.

 

Now why does having additional gear tiers on operations matter to me? Am I some sort of elitist jerk who doesn't want others to get the shiny shiny? No, absolutely not. But if we have the system that is in place right now, I'm going to gear myself in the fastest way possible, I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Which means that gearing ends before going to attempt the most challenging content they're releasing, which kills any character progression the moment I step into the new operation, that's not fun. The only boss drop I've cared about since 7.0 came out is the Emergency Power set, and imo locking that behind operations exclusively is way worse than having a couple gear tiers locked behind operations.

 

Now this is all assuming that solo gear is actually very solid gear, if the max tier of solo gear is going to be weaker than the starting story operations gear then that's kind of messed up. But I think the idea of having slightly higher gear gated behind mm operations is a nice one.

 

Of course there's also PvP, and I understand people not having faith in Bioware's floor/ceiling plan for PvP. I'd say just go back to expertise for the best results, or possibly a gearless system for pvp where instead you get to allocate a given stat budget? Or they just gotta program in that floor/ceiling system really well.

Edited November 7, 2021 by AdjeYo

[Desplain]

To miss JackieKo,

If yould want to manage a mmo with only a few people left go on with what you have planed, if you want to make money-don't do this nonesense....we don't want this,we won't play this!

 

Totally agree!!!

 

This nonsense will lead to the disbandment of our guilds.

Additionally our members will cancel their subscription!:mad:

 

Forcing people to play like you want it and take away their ability to max out their armor is an outrage.

 

Don't get me wrong we are playing this mmo since it's start and we really love it.

[Damask_Rose]

Depending on the exact stat values of solo gear vs nim gear, I really don't see why having a couple of higher iLVL's in the NiM is such a big issue for solo players.

 

For most, it's not a matter of needing the better gear. It's the principle. It comes across as Bioware saying our time and money aren't as valuable to them as that of the NiM crowd. That is a touchy point since for a decade many (clearly not you, but many) NiM raiders have been and still are incredibly insulting to anyone who isn't also a NiM raider. When people feel like they are being taken for granted and insulted at the same time, they get mad. When people feel like the developers are playing favorites, and those favorites tend to be elitist jerks, they get madder. (Don't forget that better gear makes everything easier and faster. Who doesn't want their 100th weekly go a little faster? Better gear also provides a cushion for people with disabilities. )

 

One of the annoying things for me, and many raiders with me in 6.0 is that you hit 306 most effectively by just spamming flashpoints. Meaning that when you actually get to doing nim operations, your gear progression stops entirely. That's kind of annoying in the endgame of an mmo, where the main progression after getting to max level is improving your gear.

 

That comes across as a you problem. If you want to progress through raiding alone, don't chase the fastest method possible if it isn't raiding. The developers shouldn't have to lock gear behind gates to force you to gear the way you say you want to play.

 

If for whatever reason you can't or don't want to do nightmare operations, that's fine. But it's not that Bioware is taking away something from you, they are just adding something for another group of people. Think of it this way: If Bioware were to have nim operations drop the same tier gear as max level solo gear, does that improve anything for you in the slightest? You still have the same gear, the same gear progression that you had before, you're just taking away that little extra something for others.

 

On this we completely disagree. Bioware is taking something away that we have had for five years. We have had access to not quite fully optimized top tier gear for 5 years, now we we will only have access to tier 3 gear (tier two if we do small group content.) Further more, they are taking away something that we've had for 10 years in the shape of tweaking our gear through mods. They are taking something that was available to everyone, and restricting it to a small subset. Think of it this way, but in reverse. If Bioware decided to take all of the titles, pets, mounts, decorations and unique gear skins out of operations and put them into dig sites and not replace them with anything, would you be perfectly fine with that? That would really revitalize seeker dorids, and make them available to everyone! After all, raiders clearly don't value any of that since the only thing of value in raids is exclusive top tier gear.

 

Now why does having additional gear tiers on operations matter to me? Am I some sort of elitist jerk who doesn't want others to get the shiny shiny? No, absolutely not. But if we have the system that is in place right now, I'm going to gear myself in the fastest way possible, I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Which means that gearing ends before going to attempt the most challenging content they're releasing, which kills any character progression the moment I step into the new operation, that's not fun. The only boss drop I've cared about since 7.0 came out is the Emergency Power set, and imo locking that behind operations exclusively is way worse than having a couple gear tiers locked behind operations.

 

Again, this comes across as a you problem. You can't resist getting gear quickly through flashpoints so you don't want anyone to get gear through flashpoints. (Pssst. Many players who either don't have the time or inclination to do raids, also like progressing their characters through gear.)

 

Now this is all assuming that solo gear is actually very solid gear, if the max tier of solo gear is going to be weaker than the starting story operations gear then that's kind of messed up. But I think the idea of having slightly higher gear gated behind mm operations is a nice one.

 

Of course you do, the change caters to your playstyle. People rarely object to changes that benefit them.

[kontipa]

If they move the gear sets achievements to 0 points that will be a HUGE slap in the face for many players as many surely have spend countless hours and months of playing to get them finished.

 

If they are being phased out at level 76, it will be almost immediate. There will be better gear available, but wouldn't it make sense to give players a little time to find it?

[Toraak]

Something people should also consider. As someone who has played on the PTS. I noticed all of the planets I visited had a hard stat cap. As in even my tertiary stats were capped on the planets. This means having higher level gear won't actually make any of the planetary missions like dailies/heroics go any faster.

 

Granted I haven't done FP's or Ops since last I knew the balance wasn't working as intended for those (and couldn't even get a group when I tried for FP's), so it may work differently for whether or not FP's or Lower difficulty Ops have a stat cap to them or not.

[JakRoanin]

Something people should also consider. As someone who has played on the PTS. I noticed all of the planets I visited had a hard stat cap. As in even my tertiary stats were capped on the planets. This means having higher level gear won't actually make any of the planetary missions like dailies/heroics go any faster.

 

That is the confirmation of my worst nightmares. The gearing system as of now is great at cutting down wear and tear of physically playing for me, allowing me to play more. With the new system it looks like that's gone.

[TrixxieTriss]

Something people should also consider. As someone who has played on the PTS. I noticed all of the planets I visited had a hard stat cap. As in even my tertiary stats were capped on the planets. This means having higher level gear won't actually make any of the planetary missions like dailies/heroics go any faster.

 

Granted I haven't done FP's or Ops since last I knew the balance wasn't working as intended for those (and couldn't even get a group when I tried for FP's), so it may work differently for whether or not FP's or Lower difficulty Ops have a stat cap to them or not.

 

And what about lvl 76-80 planets and zones?

[AdjeYo]

For most, it's not a matter of needing the better gear. It's the principle. It comes across as Bioware saying our time and money aren't as valuable to them as that of the NiM crowd. That is a touchy point since for a decade many (clearly not you, but many) NiM raiders have been and still are incredibly insulting to anyone who isn't also a NiM raider. When people feel like they are being taken for granted and insulted at the same time, they get mad. When people feel like the developers are playing favorites, and those favorites tend to be elitist jerks, they get madder. (Don't forget that better gear makes everything easier and faster. Who doesn't want their 100th weekly go a little faster? Better gear also provides a cushion for people with disabilities. )

 

But you can still get better gear, just not THE best. Does it really bother so much that someone else is able to get slightly better gear because they did a certain content that for whatever reason you can not or do not want to do? Again, this are gear tiers added on top, you'll still totally be able to effectively gear up your character without setting foot in any group content. They're just adding a few extra tiers for those that want to operations, so they can still work on progressing their gear through that content and have that feeling of character progression while progressing ops.

 

That comes across as a you problem. If you want to progress through raiding alone, don't chase the fastest method possible if it isn't raiding. The developers shouldn't have to lock gear behind gates to force you to gear the way you say you want to play.

 

It's not just a me problem, it's a fundamental game design problem. If you make BiS gear as easily accessible through mm flashpoint farming as it is right now, that's how people will get to that gear. And that completes ends any character progression in operations.

 

On this we completely disagree. Bioware is taking something away that we have had for five years. We have had access to not quite fully optimized top tier gear for 5 years, now we we will only have access to tier 3 gear (tier two if we do small group content.) Further more, they are taking away something that we've had for 10 years in the shape of tweaking our gear through mods. They are taking something that was available to everyone, and restricting it to a small subset. Think of it this way, but in reverse. If Bioware decided to take all of the titles, pets, mounts, decorations and unique gear skins out of operations and put them into dig sites and not replace them with anything, would you be perfectly fine with that? That would really revitalize seeker dorids, and make them available to everyone! After all, raiders clearly don't value any of that since the only thing of value in raids is exclusive top tier gear.

 

That's a poor comparison, they're not taking away gear progression from solo players. You still have several tiers to progress through, just like in 6.0. There are just some extra tiers in other content, so those players can still have gear progression while doing that content.

The mods are something I fully agree with though, I can't understand for the life of me why they're moving towards unmoddable gear. If they want to reduce rng just get rid of the 20 variants of every item modifcation they added in 6.0. But

 

Again, this comes across as a you problem. You can't resist getting gear quickly through flashpoints so you don't want anyone to get gear through flashpoints. (Pssst. Many players who either don't have the time or inclination to do raids, also like progressing their characters through gear.)

 

Yes of course they want to progress their character through gear, and they can! There's several tiers for them to progress through, just like there was in 6.0. But now, there is also a little bit of operations exclusive progression for those that want it. Why does that matter exactly? You still have the same gearing progression you can do, it just is a slightly lower number than some other people can get.

[Ulrah]

If it doesn't matter...

then why do it at all???

 

Seriously, raiders... get over yourselves. You're not inherently elite. You just prefer a style of play that many of us despise for reasons that have nothing to do with player difficulty.

 

Edit: Any raider defending this should be embarrassed. You are claiming you need an advantage...

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ulrah

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Something people should also consider. As someone who has played on the PTS. I noticed all of the planets I visited had a hard stat cap. As in even my tertiary stats were capped on the planets. This means having higher level gear won't actually make any of the planetary missions like dailies/heroics go any faster.

 

Granted I haven't done FP's or Ops since last I knew the balance wasn't working as intended for those (and couldn't even get a group when I tried for FP's), so it may work differently for whether or not FP's or Lower difficulty Ops have a stat cap to them or not.

 

FPs and Ops are all scaled up to level 80 so, unless they change something, they won't have stat caps.

 

As far as level sync/downscaling is concerned, this isn't a positive thing and it should hopefully see some iteration before it goes live. I desperately hope it doesn't go live in its current state.

 

To explain to people who haven't checked out the PTS, downscaling currently caps your tertiary stats as well as your main stats (Mastery, Endurance, Power), as Toraak mentioned. So your Accuracy, Critical Rating, Alacrity, etc, all capped as well. However, they're still held to the targets of your original level. Meaning, as an example, you need ~2700 Accuracy to be at 110% accuracy at level 80. If you go to Republic Balmorra, as an example, you'll be downscaled to level 37 and your Accuracy will be set to a value less than 100. But your actual Accuracy percentage will still be calculated by comparing that to the level 80 target of ~2700, leaving you with an Accuracy percentage of just over 101% compared to the 110% you'd have had before. This affects your crits, your accuracy, your alacrity, etc. Everything. It's completely nonsensical and 100% opposite of what happens with bolster in FPs/Ops (bolstered to level 80, compared to level 80 targets, makes sense).

 

That's also putting aside the fact that people aren't asking for gear to not matter in downscaled content, in fact I believe people wanted the opposite, which is why Bioware introduced the Veteran's Edge system for 6.0. People don't want gear to not matter, they just want to be able to obtain the same gear everybody else can. And, to be clear, it seems like optimization will be reflected in the stats that you're downshifted to, so while raid gear won't have a big advantage over Conquest gear, it will still be better, even in downscaled content.

 

As an example I noticed while testing the nonsensical downscaling: My 306 irating Marauder has better stats on Imp Taris than my 321 irating Sentinel has on Republic Balmorra, because the 306 gear was better optimized (to the point where the 321 irating character only beat out the 306 irating character in Power by about 100-200 at level 80 and that resulted in the Marauder having the higher power when downscaled). Like, this is to the point that if all you're doing is solo content and you won't be going to Manaan's new daily area, you're better off sticking with better optimized 306 gear if you have it. Conquest gear will likely only beat out better optimized 306 gear in level 80 content. Hopefully that changes, but that's currently the case.

Edited November 8, 2021 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[JakRoanin]

But you can still get better gear, just not THE best. Does it really bother so much that someone else is able to get slightly better gear because they did a certain content that for whatever reason you can not or do not want to do? Again, this are gear tiers added on top, you'll still totally be able to effectively gear up your character without setting foot in any group content.

 

Why does that matter exactly? You still have the same gearing progression you can do, it just is a slightly lower number than some other people can get.

Why? It matter because the highest gear makes the game less Painful for me to play! I also pay the same 15$ per month and do equal work to the Raiders. Why does it matter to others if I get it?

Edited November 7, 2021 by JakRoanin

[velvet_illusionZ]

bioware didn't achieve fairness or balance with their nonesense coming, what they actually did achieve is the whole community turning against each other-as expected....thanks for that bioware...will be a lovely "player-experience" you created....

[AdjeYo]

Why? It matter because the highest gear makes the game less Painful for me to play! I also pay the same 15$ per month and do equal work to the Raiders. Why does it matter to others if I get it?

 

It does not matter to others if you get it. But by having it obtained to solo activity, it makes it so the gearing progression is gone from the operations, as people will gear before heading into these operations, as that's easier. It's what has happened ever since Bioware decoupled nim operations from the highest gear tier, and it has killed any character progression in nim ops.

 

But let me rephrase my point with example numbers. Let's say Bioware were to release 7.0 with 326 gear as the highest rating for everybody, earned from any content as in 6.0. Presumably this would be all right to you, yes? Then image another system, where through conquest or flashpoints you can get up to 326 gear, and through the new operation 328 and 330 gear.

 

What is the difference for you between these two systems? Your gear is exactly the same. Your experience changes in no way except with the knowledge that some other people can get slightly better gear numbers through some content that you can not do. Why is this such a problem? If the gear you can gather is good enough so that you get a similar or even better experience playing solo than in 6.0, why would it then matter that some other people get a little bit extra, to allow them to have character progression in the content they wanna do?

[Toraak]

And what about lvl 76-80 planets and zones?

 

No idea. Doesn't look like the 76-80 area's are available to see how the stat capping works.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Toraak