Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

[captainbladejk]

No, it doesn't explain it. It's a complete fantasy.

 

How about the more reasonable answer: The game saw its active accounts numbers double last year with the release of Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season 7 and the Steam release of the game, as an influx of Star Wars fans flocked back to the franchise. That deluge of new players played SWTOR for a bit, tried to get into the game and then found it all way too complex for them because so many of them were probably MMO newbies.

 

In response, the dev team took a step back, saw how bloated and unwelcoming the ability systems are for new players, especially in the context of the modern gaming industry environment (which is massively dumbed down, for better or worse), and decided that they needed to streamline things so the next influx of new players actually sticks around.

 

Coming from a mega veteran, looking at it objectively from the outside (after having a number of friends and family come and leave the game during that big wave last year), this is the simple truth.

 

The game is going to need to evolve in order to grow. Otherwise, the best SWTOR can hope for is to keep the current players and slowly bleed out over time.

 

Wait a minute, so now you're telling me it's cool for a new person to come into an already established game, then tell everyone in that game along with the company they're doing it wrong and the game needs to change for them? Yeah no. No one gets to come into a game that's existed for nearly 10 years then start barking orders about how this needs to change, or that needs to change on day one just because they can't be bothered to actually learn their class. That's no different than a private trying to dictate to a 4 star general how things are going to run. Those new players coming in are entitled to their opinions as everyone else is, but they've not been around long enough to understand how everything works and aren't YET qualified to give large sweeping statements about how the game should function. They're free to say "I had a hard time learning X" which is a valid statement. However to say "X needs to be changed or removed because I had a hard time with it", nah dude that's not how that works. The game doesn't revolve around you.

 

In today's day and age there are tons of guides, videos, and experienced players alike who can help new folks learn if they are having a hard time. There are tons of previews people can look up to see if a game is right for them or not, and to see if a class is right for them or not, ESPECIALLY in a game as established as SWTOR is. If someone comes in as a new player and is having a hard time, yet refuses to consult any guides or videos, or refuses to ask for help, then that is 100% on them at that point because they've chosen to keep struggling. I don't mind helping folks who need it and are willing to learn, as I've spent many an hour doing exactly that. However I'm not a mind reader, and neither is Bioware. We can't give help that hasn't been asked for. Also folks have to want to learn and get better. No one can help a person who has no desire to learn and improve, not even the Force itself. I can put guides and videos out all day long, as can even Bioware, but if someone chooses not to to listen to those videos or guides, no amount of guidance will get through to them, because they don't want to be helped. People like that are a lost cause not worth my time, your time, or Bioware's time. Today new players have the benefit of nearly 10 years of people's experience to benefit from, which is something I wish I had when this game first released. New players today don't have to struggle with this game unless they chose to. New players are only as helpless as they choose to be.

 

As for "looking at it objectively as a mega veteran", no you are not looking at it objectively. You're using emotion based arguments that don't debate the merits or facts of any issue. "Do it for the new players" is no different than a politician saying "do it for the children" and is little more than emotional manipulation, because who in their right mind could be opposed to doing things for children. You can lower the difficulty curve to the floor of hell's basement and there would STILL be people who can't do it because they refuse to learn. You do them no favors by making it easier every time someone experiences a challenge. Being objective is debating with facts and logic and using specific examples to support your points. I already have an idea of what you're going to say, but what constitutes a "mega veteran" and makes them anymore credible than anyone else?

 

One of your arguments appears to be that "ability glut" is an issue for new players and reducing this glut would help them out. Okay, name the powers and abilities that are glutenous that should be removed. If you're going to assert that abilities are glutenous then you obviously have a standard in your mind as to what you consider glutenous. So what is the standard for determining what is glutenous and what isn't? Next, what happens if hypothetically we did reduce the amount of abilities in game and new players still can't figure it out? Do we keep reducing abilities or do we try something different? The further problem with that line of logic is it assumes new players are too stupid to figure out what they need to do, long before you've even met them. It's up to Bioware to make things as simplistic as possible for people to understand. After that it's up to the player to comprehend it. Will you be person 3 to name what constitutes a glutenous ability? Until you're willing to quantify your statements they're little more than emotion based appeals.

[ssupercid]

The combat experience has been streamlined, lvl-synced, and bolstered to a point that I can't even understand how new players are having trouble. How hard is it for a new player to just not use certain abilities if they feel they have too many, its not like it will cause them to get defeated. Removing abilities simply kills the current-playbase even more, especially with how it is in the PTS.

 

Maybe Bioware is transitioning this game into a lower age group that can't handle the originally-designed mmo?

Maybe Bioware believes they killed all their vet players and casuals are all thats left. probably true.

 

This however leads me to what I must shill for in every thread because it seems like the only thing that could appease both new and old playerbases. Classic Server.

 

Sub-only Classic Server in maintenance mode so that everyone who enjoyed the original game can have their option. 1 Classic server in NA, I bet it could easily make a profit for all those who left the game and would be willing to play if they could avoid all the ridiculous changes made over the years, including this 7.0 catastrophe that looks like it will streamline all ability-sets 6 months from now.

Edited July 20, 2021 by ssupercid

[Voroschuk]

This however leads me to what I must shill for in every thread because it seems like the only thing that could appease both new and old playerbases. Classic Server.

Hmm... If they will make it happen I'll definitely jump into it out of pure curiosity)) And if they will let me have all my CM space barbie stuff I will maybe even stick around)) Always wanted to try those skill trees, channeled flamethrowers, PT's with Death From Above and Unload, could be fun.

[Savej]

Sub-only Classic Server in maintenance mode so that everyone who enjoyed the original game can have their option. 1 Classic server in NA, I bet it could easily make a profit for all those who left the game and would be willing to play if they could avoid all the ridiculous changes made over the years, including this 7.0 catastrophe that looks like it will streamline all ability-sets 6 months from now.

 

A level 50 guardian on a classic server would have more abilities than a level 75+ guardian on the PTS right now.

[Kass]

And your version makes more sense? They intentionally made a bad PTS build in order to tell the EA board to leave them alone? Lol. This is why I don't come to these boards usually. The people here are completely delusional.

 

I'm not saying my version is definitely right, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the nonsense you wrote.

 

 

 

I don't have the data. You know who does? The dev team making these changes. They know something we don't. So any point players try to make against the proposed changes is based on incomplete information, literally meaning the devs know better. And yet everyone in this thread is pretending the devs are a group of braindead chimps.

 

Nah na nah. You got it wrong.... sorry maybe my writting wasn't clear enough. I'm not in anyway saying that Devs are making stupid builds to enrage their player base to then show EA that they can't do anything without nuking the player base.

 

No I'm saying that 'if' players revolt on a proposed change, that the Devs are going to update the Executives about the marketability of the proposed change. And I'm suggesting that in Corporate Politics, if say secretly the Studio doesn't really like what their Corporate Overlords have asked them to do that might say cause them to gut a core gaming mechanic, then sift through forum posts in compete opposition to the change is going to be a tactic.

 

In World of Warships I close-beta tested and launched with that game, there were a few times that community outrage prevented an update or change that in hindsight was bad for the game, and then there was a few times where the change came but was significantly modified because players that took the time to be heard and who actually had some valid points that made sense were listened to.

 

But Wargaming isn't the same structure as Bioware EA, and way WAY more greedy.

 

So can anyone know for sure if the Devs appreciate a strong push back or not, or whether or not the Studio and the Executives are in lock-step in their decision making? Who knows for sure...

 

My premise is that with EA's history, and the fact that not everyone at Bioware was replaced after the Doctors 'took the money and ran' (not a criticism, I would have too - they had nothing more to prove, and I wish them to fully enjoy the fruits of their success), that the clashing cultures can be romanticized to the belief that as Bioware and Star Wars Fans themselves, they don't always like what they are asked to do by EA Executives, and as a result just might appreciate our LOUD REJECTION.

 

That encapsulates what I was trying to communicate - not sure if I'm still failing to get my idea across or not.

[Kass]

Wait a minute, so now you're telling me it's cool for a new person to come into an already established game, then tell everyone in that game along with the company they're doing it wrong and the game needs to change for them? Yeah no. No one gets to come into a game that's existed for nearly 10 years then start barking orders about how this needs to change, or that needs to change on day one just because they can't be bothered to actually learn their class. That's no different than a private trying to dictate to a 4 star general how things are going to run. Those new players coming in are entitled to their opinions as everyone else is, but they've not been around long enough to understand how everything works and aren't YET qualified to give large sweeping statements about how the game should function. They're free to say "I had a hard time learning X" which is a valid statement. However to say "X needs to be changed or removed because I had a hard time with it", nah dude that's not how that works. The game doesn't revolve around you.

 

In today's day and age there are tons of guides, videos, and experienced players alike who can help new folks learn if they are having a hard time. There are tons of previews people can look up to see if a game is right for them or not, and to see if a class is right for them or not, ESPECIALLY in a game as established as SWTOR is. If someone comes in as a new player and is having a hard time, yet refuses to consult any guides or videos, or refuses to ask for help, then that is 100% on them at that point because they've chosen to keep struggling. I don't mind helping folks who need it and are willing to learn, as I've spent many an hour doing exactly that. However I'm not a mind reader, and neither is Bioware. We can't give help that hasn't been asked for. Also folks have to want to learn and get better. No one can help a person who has no desire to learn and improve, not even the Force itself. I can put guides and videos out all day long, as can even Bioware, but if someone chooses not to to listen to those videos or guides, no amount of guidance will get through to them, because they don't want to be helped. People like that are a lost cause not worth my time, your time, or Bioware's time. Today new players have the benefit of nearly 10 years of people's experience to benefit from, which is something I wish I had when this game first released. New players today don't have to struggle with this game unless they chose to. New players are only as helpless as they choose to be.

 

As for "looking at it objectively as a mega veteran", no you are not looking at it objectively. You're using emotion based arguments that don't debate the merits or facts of any issue. "Do it for the new players" is no different than a politician saying "do it for the children" and is little more than emotional manipulation, because who in their right mind could be opposed to doing things for children. You can lower the difficulty curve to the floor of hell's basement and there would STILL be people who can't do it because they refuse to learn. You do them no favors by making it easier every time someone experiences a challenge. Being objective is debating with facts and logic and using specific examples to support your points. I already have an idea of what you're going to say, but what constitutes a "mega veteran" and makes them anymore credible than anyone else?

 

One of your arguments appears to be that "ability glut" is an issue for new players and reducing this glut would help them out. Okay, name the powers and abilities that are glutenous that should be removed. If you're going to assert that abilities are glutenous then you obviously have a standard in your mind as to what you consider glutenous. So what is the standard for determining what is glutenous and what isn't? Next, what happens if hypothetically we did reduce the amount of abilities in game and new players still can't figure it out? Do we keep reducing abilities or do we try something different? The further problem with that line of logic is it assumes new players are too stupid to figure out what they need to do, long before you've even met them. It's up to Bioware to make things as simplistic as possible for people to understand. After that it's up to the player to comprehend it. Will you be person 3 to name what constitutes a glutenous ability? Until you're willing to quantify your statements they're little more than emotion based appeals.

 

No joke... I literally saw a chat post ingame, just the other day, on Vaiken Spacedock (Star Forge) that literally yelled in all caps:

 

HOW DO I SEE HOW ******* EVIL I AM?

 

You know those guilds that say Mature Players Only, or 18+ (13+ is more reasonble imo)... so SWTOR needs to actually have a standard by which they say:

 

"Yo! We are this kind of game. Mature Player's Only 13+; ERP Insta Ban."

 

But if you let a bunch of scruffy nerfherders dictate your design and product then you are doomed, because the if the whims and fancies of 'Cancel-Culture-Cindy' Millennials isn't bad enough, the kids growing up right now - the Fortnite generation - are going to be impossible to please their game addicted ADHD instant gratification-nation mentality.

 

I mean is that the type of ride the loyal players and subscribers of this game are in for? Because count me out. I'll screen capture record some memories, put them on a USB stick and watch them on my non-Millennial-friendly excessive 85" 4k Sony Bravia TV and enjoy my life and wait for Grandchildren.

 

No way am I going through the emotional whiplash I allowed myself to be sucked into in SWG thinking that if I yelled loud enough their might be some fruit of reason to be shaken from that dead twisted tree. Now SWTOR is no SWG - but the chasing numbers game is the same 'if' and that's a big IF that is what Bioware EA is planning on doing...

 

There's nothing more awful than being fickle to a the whims of an itself fickle gamer community that when they grow up will want something more fulfilling and leave because you willingly just gave in and bent the knee to gain in the short term.

 

SWTOR will NEVER be as successful as the modern games, because unlike these current Gen games, SWTOR was NOT DESIGNED TO BE ADDICTIVE, and spike your dopamine levels.

 

It was and is a game that tells an amazing STORY - and not going back to those roots is the real issue. An SWG style Combat Upgrade for SWTOR is not going to have any long lasting benefits, and what the OP is rightly arguing will have instead potential long therm detriment.

 

Count me out if this comes to pass, and is as bad as the opponents are pointing out.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kass

[Rion_Starkiller]

No joke... I literally saw a chat post ingame, just the other day, on Vaiken Spacedock (Star Forge) that literally yelled in all caps:

 

 

 

You know those guilds that say Mature Players Only, or 18+ (13+ is more reasonble imo)... so SWTOR needs to actually have a standard by which they say:

 

"Yo! We are this kind of game. Mature Player's Only 13+; ERP Insta Ban."

 

But if you let a bunch of scruffy nerfherders dictate your design and product then you are doomed, because the if the whims and fancies of 'Cancel-Culture-Cindy' Millennials isn't bad enough, the kids growing up right now - the Fortnite generation - are going to be impossible to please their game addicted ADHD instant gratification-nation mentality.

 

I mean is that the type of ride the loyal players and subscribers of this game are in for? Because count me out. I'll screen capture record some memories, put them on a USB stick and watch them on my non-Millennial-friendly excessive 85" 4k Sony Bravia TV and enjoy my life and wait for Grandchildren.

 

No way am I going through the emotional whiplash I allowed myself to be sucked into in SWG thinking that if I yelled loud enough their might be some fruit of reason to be shaken from that dead twisted tree. Now SWTOR is no SWG - but the chasing numbers game is the same 'if' and that's a big IF that is what Bioware EA is planning on doing...

 

There's nothing more awful than being fickle to a the whims of an itself fickle gamer community that when they grow up will want something more fulfilling and leave because you willingly just gave in and bent the knee to gain in the short term.

 

SWTOR will NEVER be as successful as the modern games, because unlike these current Gen games, SWTOR was NOT DESIGNED TO BE ADDICTIVE, and spike your dopamine levels.

 

It was and is a game that tells an amazing STORY - and not going back to those roots is the real issue. An SWG style Combat Upgrade for SWTOR is not going to have any long lasting benefits, and what the OP is rightly arguing will have instead potential long therm detriment.

 

Count me out if this comes to pass, and is as bad as the opponents are pointing out.

 

so the TL;DR is that we need to get off of your lawn?

[Kass]

/snip #ClintEastwoodQuote

 

If Clint Eastwood was a character in SWTOR he would be the did-not-defect-traitors-way-out Havoc Squad Drill Instructor that you would always have out as a companion because no other companion would exists or need to be part of your cadre... he would just be that good and that satisfying.

 

But if you want to actually ask me something specific from my post, that you clearly skim-read at least to get that much out of it, then I'm happy to try and answer.

 

Otherwise idk what to tell you other than because your post will likely get purged by a Moderator tomorrow morning for doing nothing to contribute to the conversation, and even worse not even being slightly entertaining; but because it was a Clint Eastwood quote, I thought I would preserve it a little with a reply post about how AWESOME a Clint Eastwood style/voiced SWTOR Companion might be that would help go back to STORY content to revitalize the very foundations of the game = STORY TELLING.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kass

[ssupercid]

A level 50 guardian on a classic server would have more abilities than a level 75+ guardian on the PTS right now.

 

Infuriating.

Edited July 21, 2021 by ssupercid

[captainbladejk]

so the TL;DR is that we need to get off of your lawn?

Dude, seriously, come up with some actual arguments. You've not debated a single point anyone in here, or elsewhere on the forums, has made. You don't give reasons for anything. You just assume you're right because it's your opinion and that's not how things work. If you can take the time to skim a post, you can take the time to use logic and reason. The fact that you seem absolutely bent on not engaging any of the points I have made, or others have made, shows me you have no legitimate rebuttals to anything. Certainly you're not afraid to debate the points posed if you think your stance is correct.

 

Otherwise it's got nothing to do with "get off my lawn" but everything to do with "stop trying to completely lobotomize my character for no legitimate reason."

 

edit: if a better solution comes up from said debate I will advocate it as much as I have the things I do now. however that won't happen without actual arguments being presented.

Edited July 21, 2021 by captainbladejk

[Savej]

...

I mean is that the type of ride the loyal players and subscribers of this game are in for? Because count me out. I'll screen capture record some memories, put them on a USB stick and watch them on my non-Millennial-friendly excessive 85" 4k Sony Bravia TV and enjoy my life and wait for Grandchildren.

...

 

I have that TV on my living room wall, lol.

 

But historically making this game stupid friendly has not retained customers. KotFE had a record subscriber bump thanks to The Force Awakens and the Blur trailer highlighted at E3 that year. People played the super simple game with its "tutorial keybind setup" and its simple combat for a month or two. And then they left.

[TrixxieTriss]

I have that TV on my living room wall, lol.

 

But historically making this game stupid friendly has not retained customers. KotFE had a record subscriber bump thanks to The Force Awakens and the Blur trailer highlighted at E3 that year. People played the super simple game with its "tutorial keybind setup" and its simple combat for a month or two. And then they left.

 

Along with a massive bunch of dedicated pvpers and other long term players who’ve never returned.

[MordredSJT]

Although I strongly disagree with the game being too easy, I must thank you for using rational reason and trying to explain your argument. Not many I've engaged with on here have been willing to do that. It's all been emotional appeals.

 

I just wanted to jump back in here for a second and say something, because I believe you even referenced me in another post much later on in the thread.

 

I don't see how you thought I was necessarily disagreeing with you. I don't have a problem with the earlier content being "too easy" at all. In fact, the whole point was that the claim that it is too easy and that's why they need to remove and rebalance abilities is just an excuse. It should be a good thing that the older content keeps getting easier, because more and more people will be able to clear it and actually experience that part of the game. The problem is that there is not enough new content that is actually challenging to keep players engaged for the long term.

 

Their original solution, and I use that term loosely, was level sync everything and introduce reward systems that made every piece of old content relevant. Of course, that just leads to people looking for the path of least resistance...which is why I've done Hammer Station an absolutely insane amount of times. Even when I'm not trying to do Hammer Station and queue random, Hammer Station pops a ton because of all the people using it to grind gear. I can only do the exact same content for so long, no matter the difficulty, before I stop having fun and need a break. I came back after not having played for over six months and finished all the new content on what passes for my main in a couple hours, and I was taking my time.

 

I agree with everything you've said about not punishing the player for using the tools that you have given them. I also don't believe for a second that every single encounter, in every single flashpoint, in veteran and master mode, will get a rebalance pass to get everything in line with a new baseline of player/class performance. There are still bosses in certain flashpoints right now that are buggy or present a drastic difficulty spike in one mode or the other. It's going to be worse after changes like this go live, not better. Then they will have to decide if it's worth fixing all of it, or if they will just shrug and move on to the next big thing. Maybe they will hand it off as a little side project to some intern who can introduce some more bugs because he's the lucky 1,000th person to work on the code and it's poorly documented.

 

Also, as someone who does do a lot of arguing/debating in different formats. I think you would be better served yourself by addressing the points actually being made that you feel deserve a response and not just blanket dismissing the majority as "emotional appeals". I also feel as if I've read your game/mod design resume a few dozen times now...and it shouldn't matter to anyone reasonable whether you are a founder or not. Let your arguments stand on their merits. Just my two cents

[Rion_Starkiller]

Dude, seriously, come up with some actual arguments. You've not debated a single point anyone in here, or elsewhere on the forums, has made. You don't give reasons for anything. You just assume you're right because it's your opinion and that's not how things work. If you can take the time to skim a post, you can take the time to use logic and reason. The fact that you seem absolutely bent on not engaging any of the points I have made, or others have made, shows me you have no legitimate rebuttals to anything. Certainly you're not afraid to debate the points posed if you think your stance is correct.

 

Otherwise it's got nothing to do with "get off my lawn" but everything to do with "stop trying to completely lobotomize my character for no legitimate reason."

 

edit: if a better solution comes up from said debate I will advocate it as much as I have the things I do now. however that won't happen without actual arguments being presented.

 

Just a joke man. I love one-liners.

 

What is there to debate? You don't want abilities pruned, and I don't care if they are. There's no point in trying to convince you to "my side." I just think you guys are getting too worked up when we haven't even seen the full picture yet. I'll hit my panic button after I've seen a couple more PTS iterations. But right now? I'm just curious what the devs and their secret band of QA players will come up with. I was pleased with set bonuses and tacticals in 6.0, so I'm feeling optimistic.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[Kass]

Just a joke man. I love one-liners.

 

What is there to debate? You don't want abilities pruned, and I don't care.

 

Noted.

 

The debate I think is what the veteran and founding players of SWG learned belatedly - that while mechanics can be revised, communities can not.

 

So say, as you have, that you take the position that "I don't care." which is a perfectly valid position; and you stand on that position. But at the same time, let's say that 5, 10, or even 20 players on your server quit as a result?

 

Now, while you may not ever have met them or even interacted them, or heck even been on at the same time, their absence has a ripple effect - it is the very reason why Community Relations Teams exist in MMOG/RPGs - Communities are vital to the existence and health of these games, as they are a critical element of the success of the game.

 

An Online Game can NOT exist with out a Community.

 

Now back to the example. Simple multiplication of our hypothetical numbers, and you can use any variable, but when there are more opponents than proponents like yourself, it forebodes a very bad community exodus that will then impact your game.

 

So getting this right, and caring about the changes that could cause a critical mass of too many people leaving is something to care about, even if the mechanics are not. But when the mechanics negatively affect and induce an exodus mentality with the community...

 

Well if you kill the Community, you invariably Kill the game. No one wants to play an MMO on empty servers (its why I server transferred to Star Forge)

 

It would be good for Bioware and EA Executives to remember how this very thing happened to SWG. After the Community Exodus'd, it was all down hill from there - so while not being a 1:1 comparison, its always good to learn from history and not repeat it.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kass

[AdjeYo]

Next, is the example of Freezing Force cited. This ability is being stolen from us and baked into an upgrade for Blade Storm. The upgrade to Blade Storm would make it an AoE that slows but in a "more efficient way." There's several things wrong with this. First up is if Blade Storm can already stun foes, why do I want my slow to proc on the enemy at the same time. If the stun lasts 4 seconds, and the slow 5 seconds, at best I've gotten 1 second of use out of my slow. This is not an "upgrade" but a straight up nerf and waste of a good slow. It also takes control of when the slow triggers completely out of my hands and ignores the purpose of what slows are supposed to do. Slows are meant to be used if a person has gotten in range to prevent enemy escape, or to allow someone to close the gap between them and their opponent. Blade Storm is a melee ability, and if I can't get close enough to hit my target, you've just made my new "upgrade" completely useless. So unless you're giving us a single target slow to go along with this new upgrade, you're straight up nerfing Guardians/Juggs but are too afriad to admit it. You can use fancy language all day long, but reducing the amount of abilities people have does NOT increase choice. Stealing abilities from us that we've had largely since launch, or for years, then feeding them back to us does NOT create new content, but steals content from us.

I just wanna correct a few things here. Blade Storm is an ability with a 10m range, that is a large range than the 8m AoE from Freezing Force. If chasing down a single target is the problem, Blade Storm is easier to land on the target than Freezing Force is. As for Blade Storm's stun, that only affects the main target (whereas the new utility will slow in an area around the main target) and only if the target is standard or weaker. So most of the time, it won't.

Edit: On current patch there's a utility that increases Blade Storm's range to 30m (at the cost of doing less damage beyond 10m), if that makes it to the new version we'd see a massive improvement for the range of that slow.

Edited July 21, 2021 by AdjeYo

[Rion_Starkiller]

Noted.

 

The debate I think is what the veteran and founding players of SWG learned belatedly - that while mechanics can be revised, communities can not.

 

So say, as you have, that you take the position that "I don't care." which is a perfectly valid position; and you stand on that position. But at the same time, let's say that 5, 10, or even 20 players on your server quit as a result?

 

Now, while you may not ever have met them or even interacted them, or heck even been on at the same time, their absence has a ripple effect - it is the very reason why Community Relations Teams exist in MMOG/RPGs - Communities are vital to the existence and health of these games, as they are a critical element of the success of the game.

 

An Online Game can NOT exist with out a Community.

 

Now back to the example. Simple multiplication of our hypothetical numbers, and you can use any variable, but when there are more opponents than proponents like yourself, it forebodes a very bad community exodus that will then impact your game.

 

So getting this right, and caring about the changes that could cause a critical mass of too many people leaving is something to care about, even if the mechanics are not. But when the mechanics negatively affect and induce an exodus mentality with the community...

 

Well if you kill the Community, you invariably Kill the game. No one wants to play an MMO on empty servers (its why I server transferred to Star Forge)

 

It would be good for Bioware and EA Executives to remember how this very thing happened to SWG. After the Community Exodus'd, it was all down hill from there - so while not being a 1:1 comparison, its always good to learn from history and not repeat it.

 

SWTOR already had a mass exodus: 5.0. The devs focused on one-time story chapters instead of multiplayer content. Entire guilds died. Entire servers were ghost towns. This game had to have been close to being shuttered. Somehow the game survived.

 

So this is where the disconnect and overreaction is happening. If a player is threatening to leave the game over an incredibly incomplete version of one adv class, then that player is already at the edge of leaving.

[AdjeYo]

Noted.

 

The debate I think is what the veteran and founding players of SWG learned belatedly - that while mechanics can be revised, communities can not.

 

So say, as you have, that you take the position that "I don't care." which is a perfectly valid position; and you stand on that position. But at the same time, let's say that 5, 10, or even 20 players on your server quit as a result?

 

Now, while you may not ever have met them or even interacted them, or heck even been on at the same time, their absence has a ripple effect - it is the very reason why Community Relations Teams exist in MMOG/RPGs - Communities are vital to the existence and health of these games, as they are a critical element of the success of the game.

 

An Online Game can NOT exist with out a Community.

 

Now back to the example. Simple multiplication of our hypothetical numbers, and you can use any variable, but when there are more opponents than proponents like yourself, it forebodes a very bad community exodus that will then impact your game.

 

So getting this right, and caring about the changes that could cause a critical mass of too many people leaving is something to care about, even if the mechanics are not. But when the mechanics negatively affect and induce an exodus mentality with the community...

 

Well if you kill the Community, you invariably Kill the game. No one wants to play an MMO on empty servers (its why I server transferred to Star Forge)

 

It would be good for Bioware and EA Executives to remember how this very thing happened to SWG. After the Community Exodus'd, it was all down hill from there - so while not being a 1:1 comparison, its always good to learn from history and not repeat it.

 

Of course MMO's can't survive without a community. But what makes you think this will negatively impact the community? I've heard plenty of calls on these very forums for pruning skills (especially defensive cooldowns) and combating ability bloat. Sure there's a lot of negativity right now on the forums, but that's mostly because having to choose between two abilities you can right now both have is annoying at first (but something that people will get used to if it's done reasonably) as well as certain key skills being unavailable (cc break and interrupt) on pts currently, that they did later clarify they are still considering ways to change, but aren't looking to remove.

 

If done well the new system can function similar to the current utilities system, but with more meaningful choice, that will bring in more players that might stay and bolster the community. Of course if implemented poorly it might do quite the opposite. Every change and patch you make to an online game is a balancing act.

[Kass]

Of course MMO's can't survive without a community. But what makes you think this will negatively impact the community? I've heard plenty of calls on these very forums for pruning skills (especially defensive cooldowns) and combating ability bloat. Sure there's a lot of negativity right now on the forums, but that's mostly because having to choose between two abilities you can right now both have is annoying at first (but something that people will get used to if it's done reasonably) as well as certain key skills being unavailable (cc break and interrupt) on pts currently, that they did later clarify they are still considering ways to change, but aren't looking to remove.

 

If done well the new system can function similar to the current utilities system, but with more meaningful choice, that will bring in more players that might stay and bolster the community. Of course if implemented poorly it might do quite the opposite. Every change and patch you make to an online game is a balancing act.

 

Have you tried PTS testing it, even to log in and see how different it is and feels even vs trash mobs??

 

Its on that basis that I'm very concerned. And others are saying the changes are awful, who have extensively tested and tried to provide critical feedback to the Devs.

[CrazyScruffy]

Have you tried PTS testing it, even to log in and see how different it is and feels even vs trash mobs??

 

Its on that basis that I'm very concerned. And others are saying the changes are awful, who have extensively tested and tried to provide critical feedback to the Devs.

 

I main a guardian, in fact, it was the first class I experienced. I have been on the PTS and yes it is different but it wasn't horrible. Even doing the onderon dailies with a horrible comp, it was a very smooth run with no issues. And it should be noted this is an incomplete build, and very very narrow. I believe these changes have the chance to improve gameplay for most players. And yes maybe you have to learn a new rotation, but what if it makes that easier and flow better?

 

I understand people are very attached to their toons and this game - and it feels like they're being robbed of their experience. I also think people should voice their opinions and provide the feedback they need (but they need to give them the direct feedback they asked for instead of having dozens of basically the same threads).

 

We also need to remember that yes most people on the forums seem to be upset with these changes, but again there is a very small player base that actually takes the time to come on the forums and post. So saying "most" players hate these changes is unfair, because there are players who do like the changes

 

Not really sure what my post is about, but trying not to be so negative about the upcoming changes. I think we really need to wait for more iterations of the PTS so we can give continued feedback before any changes actually happen

[LJ_Gibbs]

It's possible we're being setup to give BW producers ammo against the execs in an argument. I hadn't considered that. But it would explain a lot.

 

No... not a chance.

[Savej]

I main a guardian, in fact, it was the first class I experienced. I have been on the PTS and yes it is different but it wasn't horrible. Even doing the onderon dailies with a horrible comp, it was a very smooth run with no issues. And it should be noted this is an incomplete build, and very very narrow. I believe these changes have the chance to improve gameplay for most players. And yes maybe you have to learn a new rotation, but what if it makes that easier and flow better?

...

 

New "rotation"? There's nothing significantly new in the PTS guardians. They are the same guardians as what we have on live, minus many mostly non-dps abilities. The "rotations" aren't changing.

 

If all you do is run planetary dailies or solo story content, you don't -need- most of what's on anyone's toolbar to survive (especially not if we had working companions). Heck, you don't even need to have picked an advanced class; I'm sure I could run those Onderon dailies with 4 or 5 buttons if not less.

 

If I remotely suspected this was just a change to the classes, an "overhaul", where they gained some things and lost others and I had to learn new and different ways to function competitively, I would cheerfully currently be in the "wait and see" camp. I've changed specs for expacs before with a shrug.

 

That's not what this is. The unavailability of abilities is deliberate; if we want to play a dps character that can blade blitz then, according to the documentation, we are supposed to have to respec and drop enure or something else. The guardian I have on live that can saber reflect, focused defense, blade blitz, guardian leap and enure all for one fight, sometimes multiple times each, in something like the Eternal Championship challenge, will be gone. My pvp game is gone no matter what spec I play using these "new" characters. It doesn't make me feel better knowing that every other AC is also going to get this. My game of checkers is being reduced to tic tac toe.

[ssupercid]

As much as they decided to show these changes 6 months in advance instead of 1 month, have you known any studio that would backtrack on a plan of action that's probably been budgeted for and already in progress? Much less Bioware/EA.

 

They want to simplify ability-sets and they are going to do it. They will justify it through combat-styles but simply having different classes getting the ability to use animations from other classes is a far-cry from what they intend to delete to accomplish it.

 

I can't wait to see how the other classes get their utilities axed when they are dropped on the PTS, if we even get to see them.

[Savej]

No... not a chance.

 

I've seen something like it happen before but not on this scale; I agree that it's very unlikely.

[Kass]

As much as they decided to show these changes 6 months in advance instead of 1 month, have you known any studio that would backtrack on a plan of action that's probably been budgeted for and already in progress? Much less Bioware/EA.

 

They want to simplify ability-sets and they are going to do it. They will justify it through combat-styles but simply having different classes getting the ability to use animations from other classes is a far-cry from what they intend to delete to accomplish it.

 

I can't wait to see how the other classes get their utilities axed when they are dropped on the PTS, if we even get to see them.

 

IF... we ever get to see them.

 

Their not very forth coming about a testing roadmap. I bet Assassin main's DPS and Tank/DwT specs are going to freak when they see their class gutted - a class that basically has almost no built in heals (definitely NOTHING approaching Juggernaut)