Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

[captainbladejk]

Why does that matter?

 

As member 1503, I say my opinion means more than yours, member 992,654.

 

Seriously, stop pretending that makes you more qualified than anyone else.

Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

 

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.

[Kaizersan]

Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

 

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.

 

So I have to ask why do you keep funding the game if you don't like the direction the game is going in as money is the only thing EA cares about so if you want to show EA how serious you are unsub and quit playing the game otherwise all EA sees you as is a big talker but in the end won't pull the trigger and quit.

[Omega]

Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

 

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.

The fact that you can have this outburst and claim you're using facts and logic and not an argument from emotion is one of the reason that I quit these forums so long ago and don't engage in this nonsense.

 

I'm good. As a mega-veteran, I know that Bioware is not going to listen to you. I've seen it all happen before, as have you. You don't know better than them. And the exact reason I left these forums long ago is the same reason Bioware shouldn't take any feedback from here: its a toxic cesspit.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Omega

[TrixxieTriss]

It is massively easier to remove the abilities that cause problems than to adjust 27 flashpoints and 11 ops. Especially when you also have to create content for the new expansion. And to be quite frank, some of those defensive abilities that they have left in the game I would have removed entirely from the balance perspective.

 

Do you think they won’t ALSO have to redo flash points and operations with these changes? Jackie’s post already alluded they’ll have to adjust boss fights to balance the removal of DCDs. So they’ll actually be doubling up on the work than if they just adjusted boss fights.

 

The real reason we have balance problems isn’t the DCDs, it’s the horizontal gearing and tacticals that have been added.

 

Here is my reasoning from another thread.

 

I’ve also pointed out in my feedback that this “balance” reason for nerfing DCDs is a problem of Biowares own making when they added horizontal gearing with tacticals and multiple gear sets that make some combos too OP.

They are lying to themselves (and us) if they think it’s the DCDs causing balance issues in pvp.

 

Let’s look at mid pvp as an example where there aren’t any tacticals and limited set bonuses.

* Bolster takes care of gear so everyone basically has the same stats ✅

* In mid pvp where only lvl 70+ can have one type of set bonus per class, the games are pretty balanced (when match making works and puts similar lvls together) and TTK is much lower than at lvl 75 ✅

* In mid pvp the performance of the game runs smoother ✅

* There is much less Desync and lag affects and FPS is better too ✅

* In lvl 75 the Desync can make it nearly unplayable sometimes ❌

* In lvl 75 TTK is much higher with certain “cheese” builds ❌

 

What’s the differences here?

* At lvl 74 we already have all of our DCDs, so it’s not them causing the increased TTK at lvl 75 ✅

* At lvl 74 we have less performance issues from the game engine, so it’s not DCDs causing the problems ✅

* At lvl 75 we gain 1 more utility and horizontal gearing with multiple gear sets and different types of tacticals ❌ Bingo

 

Now I don’t think it’s that last utility choice that’s causing the balance and performance problems. But I can’t rule it out. So the solution is limit it to 8 utility choices instead of 9 and test it. I’m 99.99% sure the results will show it’s not that.

Which means the greatly increased performance issues since 6.0 and balance issues are because of horizontal gearing system they added.

 

But instead of admitting this mistake and recognising that players warned them of this last expansion when they were developing it on the pts, they try and shift the blame to DCDs that have mostly been in the game since the launch.

It’s the same disingenuous sleight of hand BioWare has used for years to deflect their own mis-steps when they don’t listen to player feedback. They are just trying to fix a problem they created that will create another problem and drive more players from the game.

 

But because they made such a fuss over horizontal gearing and made it an RNG hell grind to get some items, they can’t or won’t back track on it for what ever personal / corporate reasons.

 

When the easiest fix to most balance issues in pvp is to bring back pvp specific gear that is one set per class. That and separating utilities into pvp and pve builds and adjusting some of the passive immunities that certain abilities give.

This would also help (but not fix) the performance issues. Most of the performance issues are due to all the added extra mobile abilities they added to the game since launch.

 

Bioware say they added all these extra DCDs since launch, but as another thread has shown, that’s mostly untrue. Where as they’ve constantly increased and added to extra mobility to all classes in nearly ever other expansion. It’s at the point now where some classes move so fast it would have been considered a speed hack prior to 2.0.

On top of the speed and extra gap closers or escapes that nearly every class has now, they’ve constantly added more stuns, mez, slows and CC to some classes. And to combat that they added lots of passive immunities or utilities.

Combine all of that with tacticals and 20 different gear sets and that’s why we have performance issues and balance problems. It’s definitely not the DCDs causing that problem.

 

If BioWare want to fix game performance and enjoyment (which should be their number one priority as far as I’m concerned), then they should be concentrating on what’s actually causing the problems instead of trying to obfuscate it.

 

I think we all understand they can’t tell us all their secrets, but they need to be more open and honest with the players, especially those doing the testing for them and providing feedback. What good is our feedback if it’s skewed to begin with because they aren’t honest with us about their reasons?

 

Sadly, it looks like BioWare are going to do what they always do. Ignore overwhelming player feedback and make more fundamental mistakes that drive away more players in the long term then they attract in the short term. Which could be a fatal mistake this time since they’ve driven so many players away that they have to bribe people to play some group content or it would never pop.

 

I’m really hoping cooler heads will prevail this time and some common sense will win out for once and BioWare will back track on this idea to remove or amalgamate DCD abilities and utilities to dumb down the game to fix problems they created with another system players warned them about last expansion. If not, we really don’t have the population anymore for the game to survive another mass exodus like 5.0. If they bungle this expansion, I fear the game won’t last another 18 months.

Edited July 20, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[TevosisHot]

Double the TTK? The devs are nerfing dcd's, not offensive power.

 

But anyway, I'm just happy for a new meta. I'm not sure what the devs are up to, but I'm guessing it's more than what has been announced so far.

 

Guardian leap, saber throw and freezing force are not defensive cooldowns, and if what has been speculated about tying cc break and interrupt to other existing abilities is true that isnt a defensive cooldown either, those are changes to fundamental gameplay elements that have been in the game since 1.0.

If they wanted to balance defensive cooldowns they could've perfectly tweaked cd time, duration, gear sets and tacticals, instead of reinventing the wheel and throwing vanilla content down the toilet for the sake of balancing.

 

As the op has very well explained I dunno why they think at this stage in the games life cycle gutting classes of abilities they've had since vanilla is a good idea.

 

Adjust guard dmg transfer in pvp adjust cooldowns on certain defensive and utilities if you want, hell even revamp the abilities window separating passives from active abilities and maybe put some type of recommended for experienced players tag on abilities that are not part of the core rotation of a spec, so newer players or people that don't care much about gameplay can just put the bare minimum abilities on their bars, done. No need to reinvent the wheel and alienate players that have been loyal customers for years.

Edited July 20, 2021 by TevosisHot

[captainbladejk]

So I have to ask why do you keep funding the game if you don't like the direction the game is going in as money is the only thing EA cares about so if you want to show EA how serious you are unsub and quit playing the game otherwise all EA sees you as is a big talker but in the end won't pull the trigger and quit.

Right now they haven't ported these changes over to live. You all keep saying "we need to wait and see". As such I am voicing my feedback now and telling them if they go through with this, I will no longer fund their game. Yall want to keep saying we need to "wait and see" yet want to bash folks for not immediately canceling their sub 6 months in advance? So what exactly do you want folks to do? Because you can't advocate both positions at once. They say they want our feedback before we do anything, so that's what they're getting.

 

The fact that you can have this outburst and claim you're using facts and logic and not an argument from emotion is one of the reason that I quit these forums so long ago and don't engage in this nonsense.

 

I'm good. As a mega-veteran, I know that Bioware is not going to listen to you. I've seen it all happen before, as have you. You don't know better than them. And the exact reason I left these forums long ago is the same reason Bioware shouldn't take any feedback from here: its a toxic cesspit.

It's really quite simple dude, if you think I'm wrong then explain what I am wrong about. So far you haven't done that. All you've done is attempt to gaslight, and apparently I took the bait, so congratulations on that one. So if you think I'm wrong, what am I wrong about. Be specific. Is it my example using the code? Is it my Freezing Force example? Is it some of the past analogies I've used? Explain with specifics. The first guy who came in here that didn't agree with me at least used rational logic to explain his position. He used specific examples as to why he felt it wasn't such a bad thing. I explained why I didn't agree with those examples, and it was a productive banter. That is how you have debate. If you want to think I'm an idiot you're welcome to that opinion, but it doesn't change the fact you've not presented any counter evidence. If you have better solutions than what I've suggested, let's see them, otherwise you're doing nothing but trolling.

 

At the end of the day, if you think nothing is going to matter and they're not going to listen to anyone, why are you here? They asked for feedback from folks and they're getting it. So far aside from a small handful of people, everyone has told them they do NOT want this change as it will do nothing to help the game. As another user already pointed out, abilities like Saber Throw and similar are NOT defensive abilities, yet those are being yanked even though they've been there since 1.0. If it was purely about the defensive abilities as they say, then why are they touching non-defensive cooldowns? So, either they're straight up lying about what they want to do, they forgot what abilities were put in the game and when before sending Jackie out to make that post, or there's something they're not telling us. So what is it?

 

If it's purely about defensive abilities, tell me, what's so difficult about saying "you can't use ability X in this pvp area because it's too strong"? If they can restrict mounts on certain parts of a map but not others, they can take the time to disable particular abilities. Also adjusting the cooldown of a defensive power is as simple as opening a text file and changing a number. Are you really telling me they're incapable of opening a file and changing a number?

 

If they decide to go forward with things as is, then they're going to have to do a rebalance anyways. If they can rebalance all of the encounters PLUS retool all of the classes, then there is zero valid reason they can't just rebalance the encounters to the standards of today and call it done. If you're already doing X Y Z, you can easily do X and call it done. Again you don't need to be a AAA studio dev to see this is unnecessary and runs counter to what they say they want to do. Reducing a toolkit from 10 abilities to 7 doesn't create more choice, it steals it. The only difference between what they do at the studio level, and what myself or others do at the modding level is the scale of the projects. So the question is, do you have solutions to the problems people are raising, or are you just here to try and gaslight? If you have solutions let's have them, and if you think I'm wrong then explain why. Otherwise it's an emotion based argument that you're throwing up.

 

 

EDIT: Also as a final bit, I've seen several of you now complain that there's ability bloat, yet not a single person has been willing to name what abilities are considered "bloat" abilities. If you're going to say there are too many abilities in game, name some of the bloat abilities. Since this has been about Jedi Guardians, name some of the abilities you consider to be bloat, then we can talk. If you can't name abilities that are bloat, then you have no reason to cite the argument. I'm not saying this stuff because I don't want to see progress, I want to see good progress, not regression. I do alot of 3d modeling and similar for a living. I've also been working with various games for 15 years. But what could I possibly know.

Edited July 20, 2021 by captainbladejk

[Kaizersan]

Right now they haven't ported these changes over to live. You all keep saying "we need to wait and see". As such I am voicing my feedback now and telling them if they go through with this, I will no longer fund their game. Yall want to keep saying we need to "wait and see" yet want to bash folks for not immediately canceling their sub 6 months in advance? So what exactly do you want folks to do? Because you can't advocate both positions at once. They say they want our feedback before we do anything, so that's what they're getting.

 

 

It's really quite simple dude, if you think I'm wrong then explain what I am wrong about. So far you haven't done that. All you've done is attempt to gaslight, and apparently I took the bait, so congratulations on that one. So if you think I'm wrong, what am I wrong about. Be specific. Is it my example using the code? Is it my Freezing Force example? Is it some of the past analogies I've used? Explain with specifics. The first guy who came in here that didn't agree with me at least used rational logic to explain his position. He used specific examples as to why he felt it wasn't such a bad thing. I explained why I didn't agree with those examples, and it was a productive banter. That is how you have debate. If you want to think I'm an idiot you're welcome to that opinion, but it doesn't change the fact you've not presented any counter evidence. If you have better solutions than what I've suggested, let's see them, otherwise you're doing nothing but trolling.

 

At the end of the day, if you think nothing is going to matter and they're not going to listen to anyone, why are you here? They asked for feedback from folks and they're getting it. So far aside from a small handful of people, everyone has told them they do NOT want this change as it will do nothing to help the game. As another user already pointed out, abilities like Saber Throw and similar are NOT defensive abilities, yet those are being yanked even though they've been there since 1.0. If it was purely about the defensive abilities as they say, then why are they touching non-defensive cooldowns? So, either they're straight up lying about what they want to do, they forgot what abilities were put in the game and when before sending Jackie out to make that post, or there's something they're not telling us. So what is it?

 

If it's purely about defensive abilities, tell me, what's so difficult about saying "you can't use ability X in this pvp area because it's too strong"? If they can restrict mounts on certain parts of a map but not others, they can take the time to disable particular abilities. Also adjusting the cooldown of a defensive power is as simple as opening a text file and changing a number. Are you really telling me they're incapable of opening a file and changing a number?

 

If they decide to go forward with things as is, then they're going to have to do a rebalance anyways. If they can rebalance all of the encounters PLUS retool all of the classes, then there is zero valid reason they can't just rebalance the encounters to the standards of today and call it done. If you're already doing X Y Z, you can easily do X and call it done. Again you don't need to be a AAA studio dev to see this is unnecessary and runs counter to what they say they want to do. Reducing a toolkit from 10 abilities to 7 doesn't create more choice, it steals it. The only difference between what they do at the studio level, and what myself or others do at the modding level is the scale of the projects. So the question is, do you have solutions to the problems people are raising, or are you just here to try and gaslight? If you have solutions let's have them, and if you think I'm wrong then explain why. Otherwise it's an emotion based argument that you're throwing up.

 

 

EDIT: Also as a final bit, I've seen several of you now complain that there's ability bloat, yet not a single person has been willing to name what abilities are considered "bloat" abilities. If you're going to say there are too many abilities in game, name some of the bloat abilities. Since this has been about Jedi Guardians, name some of the abilities you consider to be bloat, then we can talk. If you can't name abilities that are bloat, then you have no reason to cite the argument. I'm not saying this stuff because I don't want to see progress, I want to see good progress, not regression. I do alot of 3d modeling and similar for a living. I've also been working with various games for 15 years. But what could I possibly know.

 

Yes but you are the one saying that they will do this anyways regardless of our input so it shouldn't matter what you say here to you it's already a done deal in your mind so I say again why are you still funding them.

[curulz]

name some of the bloat abilities. Since this has been about Jedi Guardians, name some of the abilities you consider to be bloat, then we can talk. I.

 

Here's a couple that come to mind:

1. Awe and Chilling Scream could be combined.

2. Saber Throw and Hew could be combined, but little tricky since one generates force the other consumes it...neutral perhaps? and cooldowns and damage would need to be tweaked of course

3. Reduce the cooldown on combat focus and might be able to get rid of Sundering Strike, adjust the other attacks to account for the loss of damage from SS

4. have the inital basic attacks strike and slash be replaced with the later abilities

5. If not 2, then how about combine Saber Throw and Force Leap? Would take some doing but imagine the animation of throwing your saber, leaping, catching it mid jump and then landing on them and hitting them. More work, but I think that would be pretty cool to see

 

Honestly I don't see alot of bloat in Guardian/Jugg, and I don't even think its a problem that necessarily needs fixing. But if that is their goal, they could combine a few things with some tweaks, and it might even be good. also I don't PVP, so I'm thinking more from a PVE perspective.

Edited July 20, 2021 by curulz

[Kass]

Right now they haven't ported these changes over to live. You all keep saying "we need to wait and see". As such I am voicing my feedback now and telling them if they go through with this, I will no longer fund their game. Yall want to keep saying we need to "wait and see" yet want to bash folks for not immediately canceling their sub 6 months in advance? So what exactly do you want folks to do? Because you can't advocate both positions at once. They say they want our feedback before we do anything, so that's what they're getting.

 

Agreed.

 

NOW is the time to put up or shut up. So those voicing feedback are fulfilling their civic gamer responsibilities - those who know have an obligation to speak up.

 

Ya'll wouldn't give two flicks of a Bantha's tail if nothing had ever been announced, no one was clamoring for what was announced - and they certainly weren't asking for abilities to be pruned from the game.

 

So if we take captainbladejk at his word about his qualifications, and I personally can match his detailed argument with sentiments I have had in gaming for years - that nerfing is NOT the answer, etc etc. then let him argue his position.

 

This is his game at stake too. And nothing he's argued takes anything away from any of ya'll that were half asleep about game design and only a few of you OCD freaks read every line of the Patch Notes anyway.

 

He cares - that much is clear.

 

So argue against his points, but don't attack the guy for providing the feedback the Devs actually asked for!

 

_embarrassed :

Edited July 20, 2021 by Kass

[Kaizersan]

Agreed.

 

NOW is the time to put up or shut up. So those voicing feedback are fulfilling their civic gamer responsibilities - those who know have an obligation to speak up.

 

Ya'll wouldn't give two flicks of a Bantha's tail if nothing had ever been announced, no one was clamoring for what was announced - and they certainly weren't asking for abilities to be pruned from the game.

 

So if we take captainbladejk at his word about his qualifications, and I personally can match his detailed argument with sentiments I have had in gaming for years - that nerfing is NOT the answer, etc etc. then let him argue his position.

 

This is his game at stake too. And nothing he's argued takes anything away from any of ya'll that were half asleep about game design and only a few of you OCD freaks read every line of the Patch Notes anyway.

 

He cares - that much is clear.

 

So argue against his points, but don't attack the guy for providing the feedback the Devs actually asked for!

 

_embarrassed :

 

Yeah but if you read all of his post about this he believes that they are going to do this no matter what so why is he still subbing if he really believes such and hell I have been playing for as long as he has i am a founder as well but I don't throw it around as a point like it makes a difference because it doesn't and also based on patch history BW will likely release the changes in the current mindset that they want it and just do slow changes over the year to it like they did with the current gearing system.

[TrixxieTriss]

Here's a couple that come to mind:

1. Awe and Chilling Scream could be combined. NO

2. Saber Throw and Hew could be combined, but little tricky since one generates force the other consumes it...neutral perhaps? and cooldowns and damage would need to be tweaked of course NO

3. Reduce the cooldown on combat focus and might be able to get rid of Sundering Strike, adjust the other attacks to account for the loss of damage from SS NO

4. have the inital basic attacks strike and slash be replaced with the later abilities Possibly YES

5. If not 2, then how about combine Saber Throw and Force Leap? Would take some doing but imagine the animation of throwing your saber, leaping, catching it mid jump and then landing on them and hitting them. More work, but I think that would be pretty cool to see NO, NO. Definitely not

 

Honestly I don't see alot of bloat in Guardian/Jugg, and I don't even think its a problem that necessarily needs fixing. But if that is their goal, they could combine a few things with some tweaks, and it might even be good. also I don't PVP, so I'm thinking more from a PVE perspective.

 

The problem with your suggestions and analysis is it doesn’t take pvp into account. Which is why I put big NO’s next to most of your ideas.

We need Sabre throw against ranged snipers (in cover) for pvp and also against other ranged LoSing you.

AWE is good against operatives or crowd control when people spam cap. It’s a CC that breaks on damage. You don’t want to combine that with anything that does damage.

There is not currently any ability bloat on Guardian/Juggs in any spec. But there is one useless ability, cyclonic slash (AOE) that does hardly any damage for the energy it uses that could go.

And in pvp, you focus more on priorities than full rotations, so for me Riposte (on Focus spec) is used more as a filler if others are on CD and I certainly wouldn’t miss it

You also have issues with guard and taunt on DPS specs in pvp causing balance issues. But it’s fine for pve, so maybe disable guard in pvp.

[captainbladejk]

Here's a couple that come to mind:

1. Awe and Chilling Scream could be combined.

2. Saber Throw and Hew could be combined, but little tricky since one generates force the other consumes it...neutral perhaps? and cooldowns and damage would need to be tweaked of course

3. Reduce the cooldown on combat focus and might be able to get rid of Sundering Strike, adjust the other attacks to account for the loss of damage from SS

4. have the inital basic attacks strike and slash be replaced with the later abilities

5. If not 2, then how about combine Saber Throw and Force Leap? Would take some doing but imagine the animation of throwing your saber, leaping, catching it mid jump and then landing on them and hitting them. More work, but I think that would be pretty cool to see

 

Honestly I don't see alot of bloat in Guardian/Jugg, and I don't even think its a problem that necessarily needs fixing. But if that is their goal, they could combine a few things with some tweaks, and it might even be good. also I don't PVP, so I'm thinking more from a PVE perspective.

A thousand thank yous for actually trying to name abilities. I may not agree with the examples cited, but you actually took the time to cite examples and give some reasoning. This is what I want to see more of. With that said I'm going to address the items in order.

 

1: You used the Jedi name for Awe and the Sith name for Chilling Scream which confused me for a second. Chilling Scream is the mirror to Freezing Force. In this instance we're talking about 2 different abilities with 2 different purposes. Awe is meant to be an AoE temporary stun, and Chilling Scream is meant to be an AoE slow. They server 2 different purposes. The stun from Awe breaks on damage and is meant to disorient a group of foes, allowing you to hopefully pick off a specific foe before the others come around. Chilling Scream is meant to be an AoE slow that slows people down and preventing escape. If you're going to stun someone, you don't need the slow. In this instance if you were to combine effects into a single ability, the power would stun for 6 seconds, and slow for 9. At best you've gotten 3 seconds out of your slow vs the full 9 seconds. While a combination ability could be created, it drastically reduces the effectiveness of the original powers. The it would also take control over which of the effects pops and when from people and remove a control effect from people. While it could be made to function, it would defeat the purpose of the slow and be a negative thing overall. Most pvp folks and pve alike want to have as much control of their toons as possible.

 

2:While you're correct that they both throw the saber, you actually touched on it yourself as to why combining them wouldn't work. One generates focus, the other consumes it. When you have a class like the Guardian/Jugg in a game, you need a balance of abilities that generate focus/rage, and abilities that will consume it, as well as one or two sprinkled in that don't consume it. This is because they don't have a dedicated bar of Force Power to start throwing ultra powerful abilities straight out of the gate like Assassins/Shadows or similar classes do. That's not to say that Juggs/Guardians can't throw powerful attacks without rage/focus, but simply to say that it's intended for them to generate their class resources, then use that to pay for more potent abilities. In this instance Saber Throw is meant to be more of an opener type ability that generates a bit of focus to pay for an ability or two, then go from there. Hew and Dispatch are meant to be finisher moves that do increased damage at the cost of focus/rage. Their purposes are completely different. If you were to combine those abilities you would have to answer how they interact with the class resources. do they generate them or consume them? You would then have to rebalance the class and take into account the altered resource generation so it doesn't completely destroy the class and make it useless, or give it too much generation and make it more overpowered than Vitiate thought he was.

 

3: Sunder Strike isn't just about the damage of the Guardian, it also allows the team to cheese a bit more damage towards foes as well since their armor is debuffed. It may not be the hugest damage boost ever, but it adds up the longer a Guardian/Jugg is able to maintain that debuff. In fact there are plenty of abilities that add up to help the team like that. Simply being able to smack Combat Focus a little more often isn't going to make up for the loss of Sunder Strike on its own. Will it help a bit, certainly. However relying on Combat Focus too much is a crutch. Yes it should be used, but you shouldn't depend on it to be the deciding factor in a case like this. Puts way too many of your eggs in one basket.

 

4: Strike and Slash are meant to be your basic attacks for generating and consuming Focus/Rage when you have everything on cooldown. In fact Slash gets used quite a bit to consume excess focus so it doesn't get wasted. If you were to replace them with later abilities, you would need to know what you're replacing them with, and you would have to balance the early game around not having those replacement abilities, where as you're balancing the later game around having those abilities. That's not to say it can't be done, but if one is to do things like this, it must be done carefully as you don't want it to make things too steep of a learning curve earlier on. Stuff like this if done incorrectly would cause massive power imbalances in both pvp and pve alike.

 

5: This is actually the easiest one, you're robbing people of a good opener ability. On my tank as just one example, there are times when I don't want to simply leap into the mobs, but need a way to tag them for a line of sight pull. In some instances if I don't have that Saber Throw it can force me to get way too close to additional mobs, vs tagging the one dude with my saber and falling back to the group. Not only this, but again you're removing rage/focus generator and would need to factor that in for the rest of the class. Would that change on its own render the class unplayable, no it wouldn't, but it denies people a valuable tool to adapt to the situations in front of them. I prefer functionality over looks.

 

You at least named abilities, and while I don't agree with your assessments of said abilities, I applaud you for being willing to name the abilities so we can debate the merits of said ability changes.

 

Yeah but if you read all of his post about this he believes that they are going to do this no matter what so why is he still subbing if he really believes such and hell I have been playing for as long as he has i am a founder as well but I don't throw it around as a point like it makes a difference because it doesn't and also based on patch history BW will likely release the changes in the current mindset that they want it and just do slow changes over the year to it like they did with the current gearing system.

Where did I specifically say they were going to do it no matter what? Legitimately, please show me what part of what I said gives you that idea because that's not what I've said at all. With that in mind, I have an idea what section you would end up quoting.

 

So first up I gave information of my background and experience with other games not to beat other folks over the head with it, but to illustrate that I understand the struggles of trying to design content you want and hope people will use. I understand the struggles of making a map or item you think people are going to love, only for it to fall flat. I understand the success and desire to want to improve on what you've put out there when people like it. How do you keep pushing the envelope. I understand that desire to make things right when folks come to you and say "hey I have an issue with X that you created" as that's your name and reputation attached to that item. When there are legitimate issues you want to fix them. The goal of content creation when designing stuff for games like this should be to tell the story with what you create. Not everyone is going to like what you do, and not everyone is going to pay attention to every little detail. However the smallest bits can make all the difference in the world for people. By the time this game released, I had already been playing online games for a number of years, and had already been modding about 5-6 years. I was also there when games like World of Warcraft tried this same exact thing, and saw how horribly it backfired and how gimped it made the classes feel. I saw the complaints day after day after day until I left myself. The Death Knight that made me feel like I was part of the story no longer felt like the same character. The character I had spent years of my life playing, where one of my online user names comes from, and I had made quite a few memories with good friends, had been reduced to a shell of his former self. That game still hasn't recovered.

 

I've created items from scratch and added them to games. I'll give you one example of that here: https://imgur.com/a/Hszg834 Those are industrial welder blocks I created for Space Engineers that I will be releasing soon. Are they the prettiest things ever, no they're not, but they function and do what I need them to do. I created that block from the ground up. Every cube, every cone, every edge of those blocks are mine. Those conveyor ports you see on the sides of the blocks aren't just 2d textures, but an actual 3d shape recessed inside the block. Those also aren't standard conveyor ports, those are my own creation that I use for my brand of blocks. The only things that aren't mine originally are the 2d textures for the block, and the only reason I don't use custom 2d textures is because I don't currently have the equipment to make them as easily as I would like. Only so much you can do with just a mouse. I also had to create the code that drives the blocks. For other creations I have had to make custom components for said blocks as well.

 

I say all of this not to be arrogant, but that I understand the struggles of development even if it's not at the AAA studio level. I do not want to see them make some of the mistakes that I've made along the way, nor do I want to see this game suffer because of their mistakes. I want this game to thrive, not just for myself, but for everyone who plays this game. Right now it's the only Star Wars MMO we have. Even more so one of the only Star Wars games that actually lets you have your own saga and make your own choices instead of feeling like you're just along for the ride. The less time they need to spend on massive sweeping changes, the more time they can spend giving us actual content. I've also redone most of Star Trek Armada II into how I want it to be. I've also rebuilt several weapons for the Reman mod I downloaded for the game that the original modder was never able to get working. I am also currently working on an era mod for Space Engineers to take it further into the future. I could give you the play by play of everything but that's not why I'm here. They asked for feedback, and I am giving them feedback based on my 15 years of experience working with this kind of stuff, seeing the back end of games, seeing how it all goes together, and how you can accomplish large changes, often with very little effort, and also how other games tried similar stuff and it backfired.

 

Again they can't force players to play the way they want them to. They have to give them an incentive to do it. When I wanted folks to visit a certain part of a map in TimeSplitters, I would sprinkle extra items and such there to get folks to go where I wanted them to, and it worked. Right now if they want people to use different abilities and to create more customization, they need to give people things to customize with. If things go live as they appear to be right now, they'll be doing the exact opposite of what they say they want to do.

 

Also on this point, when I asked the question "why ask us for feedback if you're just going to double down and try to convince us we're wrong," that's because that's how that dev post reads to me. They ask for our feedback, yet seemingly double down on it and try to explain why we're wrong and they're right. Not only is that patronizing, but it's a complete waste of our time and theirs if that is indeed what's going on. They could surprise me and do a complete 180 and bring the content up to meet the players as I hope they do, but based off their statements I'm not hopeful that's what's going to happen. It makes me angry that they seem so dismissive because this is the same exact thing WoW did and they STILL haven't recovered, and is the same kind of stuff that killed Galaxies. I don't want to see this game tank and I'm willing to bet you don't either. Hence part of why I'm speaking up is because I don't want to see them make the same mistake. Not only this, but they asked for our feedback based off the currently unfinished product. They wanted to know what we thought with things the way they are now, and the bits of info we have available. This game is not strictly pvp, and is not strictly pve, yet it comes off as them allowing pvp to dictate to the entirety of the game, and that's no bueno.

 

I hope this is all just me jumping the gun, I really do, as this will effect EVERYONE in the game. I want everyone to be able to play who wants to play, within reason. I'm all for them restricting certain items and abilities from being used in ranked PVP matches for the pvp guys if it'll give them a better experience. What I am NOT on board with and absolutely against the concerns of the pvp players being allowed to tell me what I can and can't do in pve or vice versa. It's not fair to either side. I like the games I play to have a certain feel to them, and SWTOR gives me the feel I like in a game of this type. If they change the core mechanics, it will no longer be that same game, but a cheap imitation. Again they are the ones that asked for this feedback, and it's now or never for folks to speak up. I am giving them what they asked for. Whether they agree or not is on them. It's unfair to them for me to give them my feedback then immediately canceling my sub without first giving them a chance to make right on that feedback. If they for sure decide to go through with it, then I will be canceling my sub and encourage everyone else to do the same. Otherwise it's hypocritical for folks to tell me "you should wait and see" then ask why I haven't immediately canceled my sub.

 

I'm speaking up now in the hope I don't have to cancel my sub. For nearly 10 years they've delivered an experience I felt was worth the investment, and I hope they keep delivering. If they don't, I will take my wallet elsewhere. Right now there is still the chance to change their course. By the time we wait for them to change it over the course of a year, or however long it would take if they repeat the 5.0 fiasco, it will be too late. The damage will have been done. Changing gear is one thing, as gear will come and go. It's still important, and it's still relevant. However changing core aspects of the game itself that have been there since launch, some of it even the closed beta, is a whole other level entirely.

Edited July 20, 2021 by captainbladejk

[Kass]

Yeah but if you read all of his post about this he believes that they are going to do this no matter what so why is he still subbing if he really believes such and hell I have been playing for as long as he has i am a founder as well but I don't throw it around as a point like it makes a difference because it doesn't and also based on patch history BW will likely release the changes in the current mindset that they want it and just do slow changes over the year to it like they did with the current gearing system.

 

I don't know how to respond to this confused word salad, but I'll give it a try:

 

Bioware EA asked for player feedback - so someone (allegedly) in the know is providing that feedback.

 

Game Studios do not publicly announce a feature change, only to do a 180. Game Studios like Bioware EA also have Executive bosses that never EVER interact with the player base, and barely ever the designers and artists themselves. The Studio Director gets an email, or summoned to a meeting, and told that the game is under performing their estimates and they want action taken to increase active account numbers (F2P and/or Sub) to increase the pool of players that will make microtransactions. So while the Studio Director may want to say #$@#$ it and burn it all down rather than be forced to purposely break a game that has persisted for 10 years just fine, but has not received the budget to develop real STORY akin to what made this game amazing at launch; well he/she has a mortagage to pay, and children to feed... what's a Game Studio Director to do? Say NO?!... only in an Anime with a story about a Director with a Vision that overcomes 'The Man" and all odds to succeed and have a RomCom Harem at the same time... but I digress.

 

So within the Game Studio they try to identify the least awful thing they can do to accomplish the directive they've been given.

 

THIS is that least awful thing.

 

Therefore, his assertion that they are likely to release it anyway is not incorrect.

 

So OUR strong opposition to the thing that Bioware Studio probably would prefer not to do in the first place, and instead be told to make more story, is the ONLY thing that they can use to go back to the Executives at EA and say 'hey look, if you have us do this, based on the reaction we're seeing from our heavily Sub'd Veteran player base and Founders (like myself) that will undercut the very reason for this change; we should really rethink this..." is the only tool the players can give to Bioware to fight off the greedy machinations of EA Execs who do not see STORY or Game Balance, or FUN but see NUMBERS for their Investors as a Publicly Traded Company.

 

Hence, standing up and being counted is useful, if for no other reason than confirming the studio employees intuitions that '(they) have a bad feeling about this'.

 

This is the way of the world - this is the way the world works. And anyone that thinks a publicly traded company, or any company, has their interests at heart before their profit motive is living under a rock with rose colored glasses on.

 

As Customers we make our voices heard, and then vote with our wallets if need be.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Kass

[Savej]

It's possible we're being setup to give BW producers ammo against the execs in an argument. I hadn't considered that. But it would explain a lot. Edited July 20, 2021 by Savej

[captainbladejk]

here you go a quote you said to me on another thread.

"Dude you need to get over yourself with these emotional appeals and the whole "you're just projecting" argument. It's not a valid argument and is the equivalent of you sticking your fingers in your ears going "la la la la la" over and over like a little kid on a playground that doesn't want to hear something. Trying the same thing twice and expecting a different result is insanity. If the devs release something that proves us wrong and we all jumped the gun, i'll be happy to admit that, and I want that to be the case. However past experience tells me that it won't be. If it doesn't work for the much bigger WoW, why would it work here? If you have legitimate arguments let's hear them, because right now you don't"

At the end you clearly say based on past experience you don't believe it will work which shows you have predetermined that it will fail so since it clearly shows you believe as I said why do you still sub.

First up, you need to read what I said in the context of the greater discussion. Bioware themselves asked for this feedback and that's what they're getting. They claim the feedback is going to be used to direct their course of action on the next expansion. We'll see if that's truly the case soon enough and they reverse course on this with virtually everyone but a few holdouts saying they don't want this. However as I said, when a company makes up their mind they're going to do something and are gung-ho about it no matter what kind of feedback they get, then past experience has told me 99% of the time there is nothing further to be done. Bioware says they want to adjust based off the feedback they get, so we'll see if that's really the case soon enough, or if they're just throwing a smoke screen.

So far they have seemingly doubled down and tried to defend why they believe they are right and we're all wrong. WoW did the same thing, then kept going with what they wanted to do in spite of feedback they asked for. We'll see if Bioware does the same or actually changes as they say they want to do.

 

Next, you have been one of the very people going on about "you all don't have all the information and need to wait and see since we're still 6 months out." Yet when folks like myself actually try to wait and see, you complain that we haven't immediately packed up and left even though by your own admissions "we don't have all the information and are still 6 months out." So which is it dude? Do you want folks to wait and see, or do you want everyone who doesn't think like you to just pack up and go home? Because you can't have it both ways. Even then I hate the whole "if you don't like it why don't you just leave" line of logic. By that line of logic no one could ever give constructive criticism on anything ever again. A guy says that he doesn't like the color of an item "well why don't you just leave," one of the pvp guys says he doesn't like how long it takes to kill in pvp "well why don't you just leave," one of the pve guys says they don't like boss mechanic x "well why don't you just leave." By your own line of logic, if you think I'm going to stay subbed no matter what, why are you still here in my thread?

 

Again if you think I'm wrong about any of the points posed, then by all means explain why you think I'm wrong with specifics. If you think I'm wrong about the ease of coding changes, explain why you think I'm wrong about that. If you think certain abilities are bloat abilities, then name those abilities and your proposed solutions and we can discuss that. So far I've seen only 2 people willing to do that from your camp. Even though I disagreed with them, it still produced debate as to why something is/isn't a good idea and potential solutions. I've already presented my arguments at the start of this. So if you think I'm wrong debate the points, debate the merits, debate the solutions.

[Omega]

It's possible we're being setup to give BW producers ammo against the execs in an argument. I hadn't considered that. But it would explain a lot.

 

No, it doesn't explain it. It's a complete fantasy.

 

How about the more reasonable answer: The game saw its active accounts numbers double last year with the release of Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season 7 and the Steam release of the game, as an influx of Star Wars fans flocked back to the franchise. That deluge of new players played SWTOR for a bit, tried to get into the game and then found it all way too complex for them because so many of them were probably MMO newbies.

 

In response, the dev team took a step back, saw how bloated and unwelcoming the ability systems are for new players, especially in the context of the modern gaming industry environment (which is massively dumbed down, for better or worse), and decided that they needed to streamline things so the next influx of new players actually sticks around.

 

Coming from a mega veteran, looking at it objectively from the outside (after having a number of friends and family come and leave the game during that big wave last year), this is the simple truth.

 

The game is going to need to evolve in order to grow. Otherwise, the best SWTOR can hope for is to keep the current players and slowly bleed out over time.

[Kass]

No, it doesn't explain it. It's a complete fantasy.

 

How about the more reasonable answer: The game saw its active accounts numbers double last year with the release of Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season 7 and the Steam release of the game, as an influx of Star Wars fans flocked back to the franchise. That deluge of new players played SWTOR for a bit, tried to get into the game and then found it all way too complex for them because so many of them were probably MMO newbies.

 

In response, the dev team took a step back, saw how bloated and unwelcoming the ability systems are for new players, especially in the context of the modern gaming industry environment (which is massively dumbed down, for better or worse), and decided that they needed to streamline things so the next influx of new players actually sticks around.

 

Coming from a mega veteran, looking at it objectively from the outside (after having a number of friends and family come and leave the game during that big wave last year), this is the simple truth.

 

The game is going to need to evolve in order to grow. Otherwise, the best SWTOR can hope for is to keep the current players and slowly bleed out over time.

 

 

I think it's interesting that it's 'complete fantasy' to you, but how's you're perspective any less 'fantasy'?

 

"Mega Veteran" - I literally can not respond to this without getting a forum suspension, but hey classify yourself anyway you like, it does nothing to increase the validity of your own anecdotal fantasy position.

 

The only fact you accurately identified is that Disney+ shows generated buzz in all thing Star Wars, and as such inevitably some people might have found SWTOR. But that's where the facts end...

 

So again, its easy to call other factual assertions 'fantasy', while being oblivious to the promotion of your own fantasy arguments.

 

I have a suspicion fewer people are going to gravitate toward your fantasy argument, then the one that is rooted in a work-culture reality and a long history and pattern of behavior by EA.

 

But good luck with that...

[Savej]

No, it doesn't explain it. It's a complete fantasy.

 

How about the more reasonable answer: The game saw its active accounts numbers double last year with the release of Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season 7 and the Steam release of the game, as an influx of Star Wars fans flocked back to the franchise. That deluge of new players played SWTOR for a bit, tried to get into the game and then found it all way too complex for them because so many of them were probably MMO newbies.

 

In response, the dev team took a step back, saw how bloated and unwelcoming the ability systems are for new players, especially in the context of the modern gaming industry environment (which is massively dumbed down, for better or worse), and decided that they needed to streamline things so the next influx of new players actually sticks around.

 

Coming from a mega veteran, looking at it objectively from the outside (after having a number of friends and family come and leave the game during that big wave last year), this is the simple truth.

 

The game is going to need to evolve in order to grow. Otherwise, the best SWTOR can hope for is to keep the current players and slowly bleed out over time.

 

Sorry to burst your fantasy but Steam gave swtor a bump for awhile. Steam numbers have dropped to ~1/3rd of what they were last July.

 

As far as bloat goes, what are you referring to? Do new players at level 1 get given 50 populated hotkey buttons to manage? Which devs and what studies are you referring to other than the ones in your head?

How many more buttons are being used now vs 10 years ago when the game launched?

Edited July 20, 2021 by Savej

[Omega]

I think it's interesting that it's 'complete fantasy' to you, but how's you're perspective any less 'fantasy'?

 

"Mega Veteran" - I literally can not respond to this without getting a forum suspension, but hey classify yourself anyway you like, it does nothing to increase the validity of your own anecdotal fantasy position.

 

The only fact you accurately identified is that Disney+ shows generated buzz in all thing Star Wars, and as such inevitably some people might have found SWTOR. But that's where the facts end...

 

So again, its easy to call other factual assertions 'fantasy', while being oblivious to the promotion of your own fantasy arguments.

 

I have a suspicion fewer people are going to gravitate toward your fantasy argument, then the one that is rooted in a work-culture reality and a long history and pattern of behavior by EA.

 

But good luck with that...

And your version makes more sense? They intentionally made a bad PTS build in order to tell the EA board to leave them alone? Lol. This is why I don't come to these boards usually. The people here are completely delusional.

 

I'm not saying my version is definitely right, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the nonsense you wrote.

 

Sorry to burst your fantasy but Steam gave swtor a bump for awhile. Steam numbers have dropped to ~1/3rd of what they were last July.

 

I don't have the data. You know who does? The dev team making these changes. They know something we don't. So any point players try to make against the proposed changes is based on incomplete information, literally meaning the devs know better. And yet everyone in this thread is pretending the devs are a group of braindead chimps.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Omega

[TevosisHot]

No, it doesn't explain it. It's a complete fantasy.

 

How about the more reasonable answer: The game saw its active accounts numbers double last year with the release of Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season 7 and the Steam release of the game, as an influx of Star Wars fans flocked back to the franchise. That deluge of new players played SWTOR for a bit, tried to get into the game and then found it all way too complex for them because so many of them were probably MMO newbies.

 

 

That's funny, last year on a subreddit for an unrelated game swtor came up and a lot of people said they tried it lately and while the story was interesting they thought the combat was brain dead easy and how everything could be killed by using 4 buttons, so it made them bored and they stopped playing.

I don't know how anyone could find sub level 40 swtor abilities too complex. Let's be real if anyone finds having more than 10 abilities cumbersome they were never the target audience for this game, not all games are for everyone and that is fine. I myself tried ESO and WoW and I couldnt get into either.

 

Also that argument doesn't make much sense either, while the first post they made was framed in a way as to say they wanted to "clean up" the quickbars they later made a new post and said it was to "reduce the amount of defensive cooldowns" that the game has had added trough the years.

 

1. Most abilities will still be in the game just not usable all at once, so new players will still have to read and pick the abilities they want, it's not really culling abilities but more of a hiding them behind yet another button.(Removing choice from players that already are using said abilities live)

2. The cooldowns they wanna remove were there since vanilla except for one.

[Voroschuk]

In response, the dev team took a step back, saw how bloated and unwelcoming the ability systems are for new players, especially in the context of the modern gaming industry environment (which is massively dumbed down, for better or worse), and decided that they needed to streamline things so the next influx of new players actually sticks around.

This can be true. I mean, somehow, this game needs 3 full quickbars of abilities to give us combat that looks 5 times more dull than 5-button Battlefront))

Edited July 20, 2021 by Voroschuk

[JCDenton]

then found it all way too complex for them

 

There's no reason to believe this.

[JCDenton]

I don't have the data. You know who does? The dev team making these changes. They know something we don't.

 

No reason to believe this, either. What analytics do you think they possess that tell them that over simplification is the way forward? What specific data points? How do they measure them? What data points would one need to make such a decision, and are they even measurable?

 

I have repeatedly seen people on this forum throw around the word "data" like it's a magic spell that immediately invalidates any opposing arguments, without having given any thought to what data is realistically available, and what indications that data can reasonably make. Yes, Bioware has analytics, the same analytics that were available to them prior to every misstep this game has made since launch. Every online game you have ever played, and watched be patched into oblivion, has had analytics available. The availability of data doesn't mean you have the right data, it doesn't mean you have the right interpretation of that data, and it doesn't mean you are making good decisions, or that your decisions are even based on available data to begin with.

[Omega]

There's no reason to believe this.

 

Other than real feedback from friends and family who played the game for a month or two after Mando released and then quit and went back to playing games on the Switch? There were more of them than unique posters in this thread.

[JCDenton]

Other than real feedback from friends and family who played the game for a month or two after Mando released and then quit and went back to playing games on the Switch? There were more of them than unique posters in this thread.

 

Yes, I'm certain you and everyone you encountered had long and detailed discussions about a very old game, totally unprompted even, which just so happened to pertain to the argument you're in today, and prove that you're correct. And then everybody clapped.

 

Let's ignore that you have hamfistedly jumped from "they have data" to "my friend said", and agree on the idea that you being related to or having befriended people so simple that they can't manage ten abilities in a videogame, to accept your premise, maybe doesn't carry wider implications for the broader group. Maybe "my friend said" isn't data, and shouldn't be presented as such.