Combat styles are death of game

[xordevoreaux]

I was down with this update as it was presented to us; but, having played PTS now, I am a bit confused by the changes.

 

If anyone has not played the PTS yet, you need to log in give it a shot. The classes are losing abilities.

 

While, I guess I can understand "pruning" certain abilities, having to choose between enure and saber reflect on my Jedi Knight Tank, just feels like we are losing commonly used abilities.

 

It's pretty early in the process so I am not going to be a debbie downer, but I have also been here since launch and have yet to see anything come out on PTS that doesn't get implemented in game.

 

If you are going by the "sales pitch" on combat class changes, I would say it sounds awesome, but if you have tried PTS so far it just feels like we are losing abilities in favor of simple game play

 

Bioware announced this first PTS pass was incomplete even for the class to be tested (JK) so I'm waiting for an announcement of a second pass with (hopefully) more-complete classes to test. I won't care if abilities drop if the end-goal is still achievable easily enough - killing mobs. Can't speak to PvP.

Edited July 16, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[Arnobe]

The only thing being tested is the JG ... right ?

 

Smuggler / Trooper and (possibly JK) ... yeah I can do those. I only did one of the Guardian and frankly hated it so much (story AND mechanics) ... I never made another one. I doubt seriously I'd be an affective analysist.

 

Smuggler and Trooper especially .. that is another matter ! ! I thoroughly enjoy both! (BTW... please note I didn't like ALL of the stories for Smuggler or Trooper vanilla ).

 

And YES I do plan on testing BOTH extensively.

 

BTW.. please don't overlook what I'm really driving at.

 

** If the new mechanics aren't botched .. and even if some of the "fluff" combat actions are removed in favor of adding additional moves from other classes .. that MIGHT work. (hard to say at this stage).

 

** As so many others have stated (better than I have evidently) ... there are a lot of OTHER areas that have been neglected for so long that it would have been JUST as prudent to address some of those concerns with EQUAL priority.

 

The absence of any information regarding those "concerns" IMO is what seems to be driving such a negative review of other changes as well.

 

"The force seeks balance" .... Perhaps there is something to be said about keeping "balance" in keeping SWTOR alive and THRIVING as opposed to alive and limping along!

 

(Just a thought) ..

 

Yeah .. Trust me. The old man gets it !! Which side is the bread buttered on ?

I just wana know one thing? ... Which side to apply the butter on???

[OlBuzzard]

I just wana know one thing? ... Which side to apply the butter on???

 

That my friend is the multi-million dollar (USD) question !!

 

Someone's gonna get REALLY upset if it ends up on the wrong side !!

[OlBuzzard]

Just try it out now. There is no Guarantee that we will test every class, plus if you dont like it, I would advise speaking up sooner than later on the PTS forums

 

As far as "extensive testing" There isnt much to test. You load in and click the NPC and you will see that we only have about 65% of the abilities we had before.

 

Hmmm ... ya know ... Judging the way this is going right now ... You may have a valid point. I will give this some serious thought !

[MCHentz]

This stuff isnt even officially ironed out yet. May not want to head to the dooms day bunker just yet.

 

Agreed!

[Nee-Elder]

This stuff isnt even officially ironed out yet. May not want to head to the dooms day bunker just yet.

 

Agreed! :

 

Sure, but...well...it seems like the 'die' has already been cast:

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9957653#edit9957653

 

Time (and testing) will tell of course.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[CrazyOldMystic]

The op wasnt wrong. If you read the last dev post from yesterday. Its pretty clear they dont give a damn about player feedback and they are going to go ahead with ability removal. Also the post before that they drumbed down the saber throw and completely ignored the concern that it was iconic to the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior. In the post from yesterday they are going to reduce the impact and number of defensive abilities. Wait for it the same age old garbage from Wo*s dev team going to reduce the number of abilities by combing them. Now once you pull out the double talk and all the bs. It boils down to this make every class simple easy, and stupid.

 

One question though someone in this thread claimed to use a different weapon type you had to completely swap to that

adv class. I was not aware of this anyone got a link here?

Edited July 16, 2021 by CrazyOldMystic

[SithKoriandr]

The op wasnt wrong. If you read the last dev post from yesterday. Its pretty clear they dont give a damn about player feedback and they are going to go ahead with ability removal. Also the post before that they drumbed down the saber throw and completely ignored the concern that it was iconic to the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior. In the post from yesterday they are going to reduce the impact and number of defensive abilities. Wait for it the same age old garbage from Wo*s dev team going to reduce the number of abilities by combing them. Now once you pull out the double talk and all the bs. It boils down to this make every class simple easy, and stupid.

 

One question though someone in this thread claimed to use a different weapon type you had to completely swap to that

adv class. I was not aware of this anyone got a link here?

 

Well, you notice you can't use dual sabers or double blade now on guardian. So you can't use a different weapon on combat styles.

 

However, I don't think anywhere was it said we could switch between combat styles (advanced classes as we call them now) just loadouts. And looking at test, load out just may be the disciplines and skill choices one takes in the combat class.

 

Easier PvP and PvE build switching between the different disciplines of the combat style.

 

That's what I'm actually guessing is going to be the case myself, looking at the linked dev post.

[EllieAnne]

I play my mercenary to play a mercenary, or my guardian to play a guardian.

 

I started another thread but a video on youtube for a well-know reviewer says it's worst than that and for force-users you are locked into the role that matches your alignment so for example if you are LS you have to fight as a guardian and if you are DS you have to fight as a Juggernaut.

 

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[Odinmo]

I think though that you can also understand that more and more levels without new skills and now suddenly having to choose between skills, that you all got before, just doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

See, normally I would have agreed with those who hold this view, if I had endured this game for a decade.

 

Unfortunately, I took a 5 year break to go play ESO, and having thoroughly enjoyed that game, I'm sure I definitely won't miss ability pruning.

 

In ESO, you have a maximum of 12 abilities, and only 6 you can use at any given time, with 1 provisional based upon resource charging. Developing muscle-memory for weaving just those few abilities required 40hrs of practice alone. I know it may sound odd, but as a returning player to SWTOR, I definitely do NOT miss all the extra buttons I have to mash, and how I spend more time looking at cooldowns than I do enjoying the scenery.

[Severith]

See, normally I would have agreed with those who hold this view, if I had endured this game for a decade.

 

Unfortunately, I took a 5 year break to go play ESO, and having thoroughly enjoyed that game, I'm sure I definitely won't miss ability pruning.

 

In ESO, you have a maximum of 12 abilities, and only 6 you can use at any given time, with 1 provisional based upon resource charging. Developing muscle-memory for weaving just those few abilities required 40hrs of practice alone. I know it may sound odd, but as a returning player to SWTOR, I definitely do NOT miss all the extra buttons I have to mash, and how I spend more time looking at cooldowns than I do enjoying the scenery.

 

Comparing "active action combat" systems vs the old school mmo styles is pointless. It's not like we're inserting light and heavy attacks in between abilities, we're not double tapping to dodge. I like ESO for sure, but the reason it plays like it does is because it's meant to be played on an xbox controller.

[Damask_Rose]

I just wana know one thing? ... Which side to apply the butter on???

 

Are you a Yook or a Zook?

[Darth-Obvious]

Comparing "active action combat" systems vs the old school mmo styles is pointless. It's not like we're inserting light and heavy attacks in between abilities, we're not double tapping to dodge. I like ESO for sure, but the reason it plays like it does is because it's meant to be played on an xbox controller.

 

The success of WoW and FF14 show that a large audience of people can be okay with lots of abilities however I don't know that SWTOR justifies it as well or looks/feels as good as those games do.

 

With SWTOR when you look at the way it moves, feels, plays, animates, etc, it's relatively stiff compared to what else is out there.

 

You can see how stiff/rigid something like WoW started off via WoW Classic but the difference in the smoothness of animations, flow of combat, etc, is night and day compared to modern WoW.

 

FF14 at times moves and animates like a character action game, like something you'd see from Platinum Games especially if you look at something like the Monk class and how its animations flow into one another yet it still has multiple rows of skills bars and what not just like WoW and SWTOR.

 

When people play SWTOR or watch videos of it I think it comes across as very stiff or archaic looking to a lot of people. They see characters with lightsabers, force powers, blasters, etc, but for the most part they just see characters/players standing in place like it was a turned based RPG or something instead of something that looks or feels like Star Wars.

 

SWTOR doesn't need to play like ESO or Battlefront or Jedi Fallen Order or whatever but it could have more visual flair to it. The animations could be improved. Skills could chain/link together better, etc.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[JattaGin]

The op wasnt wrong. If you read the last dev post from yesterday. Its pretty clear they dont give a damn about player feedback and they are going to go ahead with ability removal.

 

This has always been the case. Rule of thumb: Everything they put on the PTS has already been decided on, and it will happen. Our "feedback" might - maybe - change a few minor things, but the overall direction will never change, no matter how displeased the majority of testing players is. I'm surprised that there are still people testing, especially the ones who've been experiencing testing on the PTS before. It's a waste of time and nerves. I don't even bother installing the PTS again.

[Tsillah]

See, normally I would have agreed with those who hold this view, if I had endured this game for a decade.

 

Unfortunately, I took a 5 year break to go play ESO, and having thoroughly enjoyed that game, I'm sure I definitely won't miss ability pruning.

 

In ESO, you have a maximum of 12 abilities, and only 6 you can use at any given time, with 1 provisional based upon resource charging. Developing muscle-memory for weaving just those few abilities required 40hrs of practice alone. I know it may sound odd, but as a returning player to SWTOR, I definitely do NOT miss all the extra buttons I have to mash, and how I spend more time looking at cooldowns than I do enjoying the scenery.

Except there won't be many fewer skills in your skill bar because the choices you make are primarily passive skills and the active skills that you won't get anymore are actually some of the better and iconic skills out there. Saber Throw is one of them and the choice there is between Saber Throw and two passive skills. So a lot of the pruning is actually passive skills that are not in your skill bar.

 

My problem with that is that it can reduce your possibilities. I wouldn't have minded if they pruned some of the direct attack skills away and give lower cooldowns to some remaining skills, but Saber Throw for a melee class is a ranged attack and an opener. The level 70 choice for example is active skills but it's between 3 DCD's. So that makes the class survivability in particular a lot lower. This affects tanks especially but also off-tanks.

 

So to me it's not so much the reduction of skills that I don't want, but the fact that you have to choose between skills that also give the class a specific functionality, like ranged attacks for melee are few and far between so that's important.

 

In the end it's not so much the pruning itself as the way they're going about it. And the choices you have to make will not be real choices since people will figure out what the best build is in pvp and raids and those will be the meta and that's it then. It's false choices if the choices aren't equal. You think that the choice between higher DPS and ranged attacks is equal? But now we don't have to choose between them, with 7.0 we will.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Tsillah

[CrazyOldMystic]

Well, you notice you can't use dual sabers or double blade now on guardian. So you can't use a different weapon on combat styles.

 

However, I don't think anywhere was it said we could switch between combat styles (advanced classes as we call them now) just loadouts. And looking at test, load out just may be the disciplines and skill choices one takes in the combat class.

 

Easier PvP and PvE build switching between the different disciplines of the combat style.

 

That's what I'm actually guessing is going to be the case myself, looking at the linked dev post.

 

I see what your saying, because even logically I am not sure how this could work. I mean what a stealth ability for say a commando? Op. Although at the same time I would like to get stock strike back on my commando and full auto back on my vanguard. I would defiantly like to be able to use all of my commando abilities with a blaster rifle. Speaking of the system as a whole by the way, this time anyways.

[Severith]

The success of WoW and FF14 show that a large audience of people can be okay with lots of abilities however I don't know that SWTOR justifies it as well or looks/feels as good as those games do.

 

With SWTOR when you look at the way it moves, feels, plays, animates, etc, it's relatively stiff compared to what else is out there.

 

You can see how stiff/rigid something like WoW started off via WoW Classic but the difference in the smoothness of animations, flow of combat, etc, is night and day compared to modern WoW.

 

FF14 at times moves and animates like a character action game, like something you'd see from Platinum Games especially if you look at something like the Monk class and how its animations flow into one another yet it still has multiple rows of skills bars and what not just like WoW and SWTOR.

 

When people play SWTOR or watch videos of it I think it comes across as very stiff or archaic looking to a lot of people. They see characters with lightsabers, force powers, blasters, etc, but for the most part they just see characters/players standing in place like it was a turned based RPG or something instead of something that looks or feels like Star Wars.

 

SWTOR doesn't need to play like ESO or Battlefront or Jedi Fallen Order or whatever but it could have more visual flair to it. The animations could be improved. Skills could chain/link together better, etc.

 

This thread is about design philosophy, not animation fluidity. Talking just to talk isn't constructive.

[mike_carton]

One question though someone in this thread claimed to use a different weapon type you had to completely swap to that adv class. I was not aware of this anyone got a link here?

 

That is the essence of the Combat Styles change once it is fully implemented. It is not on PTS as of now. It was mentioned in the Livestream a few days ago by Eric Musco.

[Alssaran]

I started another thread but a video on youtube for a well-know reviewer says it's worst than that and for force-users you are locked into the role that matches your alignment so for example if you are LS you have to fight as a guardian and if you are DS you have to fight as a Juggernaut.

 

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

There is currently nothing pointing to an alignment lock.

 

What the devs said is that you need to have an alignment to access a counter class. That means if you create a Jedi and want to use the Marauder combat style, you need to be a certain dark side alignment. What they haven't said, however, is that you will be locked into an opposite.

 

Here's an example: once your Sith Inquisitor reaches Light III, you could switch to one of the light-sided combat styles and be a Sage. If you don't want to, however, then your Sith can just continue using the sorcerer combat style.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Alssaran

[SithKoriandr]

There is currently nothing pointing to an alignment lock.

 

What the devs said is that you need to have an alignment to access a counter class. That means if you create a Jedi and want to use the Marauder combat style, you need to be a certain dark side alignment. What they haven't said, however, is that you will be locked into an opposite.

 

Here's an example: once your Sith Inquisitor reaches Light III, you could switch to one of the light-sided combat styles and be a Sage. If you don't want to, however, then your Sith can just continue using the sorcerer combat style.

 

Which means people will likely have to farm dark/light side points to get the class they want, then farm it back to be the alignment they feel their character should be, unless they force it on players.

[Alssaran]

Which means people will likely have to farm dark/light side points to get the class they want, then farm it back to be the alignment they feel their character should be, unless they force it on players.

 

Alignment is (short of a couple things) pretty much useless and among the easiest things to get to rank 5. You can set yourself to whatever alignment you need in the DvL toggle and passively get all the way up to it before you even realize.

 

That said, I don't believe we're talking about rank V here. We're most likely looking at something like a rank III, which should be very easy to get to and recover from using the DvL system if you were really inclined to do it.

 

And that said, if they want to be one of the counter classes, I'd argue there's no real point in going back and forth between the two. If I am making a Jedi Knight specifically to become a Sorcerer, chances are I want to be a dark side Jedi in the first place. The same goes the other way around. I doubt many people will switch their LS imp character over, but there's quite some usability for DS republic characters.

 

The short version of this: no, I don't think this is a major flaw in the system. Chances are that if you want to actually use an assassins' powers on a knight, you're already thinking about going dark side to begin with. The amount of people who will make a light side Jedi, unlock an assassin by going dark, and then go full on back to the light side is probably miniscule at best. And even in the one-in-a-thousand chance you want to be a light-side Jedi with DS powers, the DvL system means it's literally going to happen passively while playing for a few days.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Alssaran

[Tsillah]

Alignment is (short of a couple things) pretty much useless and among the easiest things to get to rank 5. You can set yourself to whatever alignment you need in the DvL toggle and passively get all the way up to it before you even realize.

 

That said, I don't believe we're talking about rank V here. We're most likely looking at something like a rank III, which should be very easy to get to and recover from using the DvL system if you were really inclined to do it.

 

And that said, if they want to be one of the counter classes, I'd argue there's no real point in going back and forth between the two. If I am making a Jedi Knight specifically to become a Sorcerer, chances are I want to be a dark side Jedi in the first place. The same goes the other way around. I doubt many people will switch their LS imp character over, but there's quite some usability for DS republic characters.

 

The short version of this: no, I don't think this is a major flaw in the system. Chances are that if you want to actually use an assassins' powers on a knight, you're already thinking about going dark side to begin with. The amount of people who will make a light side Jedi, unlock an assassin by going dark, and then go full on back to the light side is probably miniscule at best. And even in the one-in-a-thousand chance you want to be a light-side Jedi with DS powers, the DvL system means it's literally going to happen passively while playing for a few days.

 

Well they did say eventually so it might be Dark V or Light V after all. Of course it does mean that if you want to switch to another Combat Style that's against your alignment, unlike tech classes, it will take at least some time before you can do that. I foresee items in the CM that you can switch alignment with instantly

[SithKoriandr]

Alignment is (short of a couple things) pretty much useless and among the easiest things to get to rank 5. You can set yourself to whatever alignment you need in the DvL toggle and passively get all the way up to it before you even realize.

 

That said, I don't believe we're talking about rank V here. We're most likely looking at something like a rank III, which should be very easy to get to and recover from using the DvL system if you were really inclined to do it.

 

And that said, if they want to be one of the counter classes, I'd argue there's no real point in going back and forth between the two. If I am making a Jedi Knight specifically to become a Sorcerer, chances are I want to be a dark side Jedi in the first place. The same goes the other way around. I doubt many people will switch their LS imp character over, but there's quite some usability for DS republic characters.

 

The short version of this: no, I don't think this is a major flaw in the system. Chances are that if you want to actually use an assassins' powers on a knight, you're already thinking about going dark side to begin with. The amount of people who will make a light side Jedi, unlock an assassin by going dark, and then go full on back to the light side is probably miniscule at best. And even in the one-in-a-thousand chance you want to be a light-side Jedi with DS powers, the DvL system means it's literally going to happen passively while playing for a few days.

 

I know, I as a player was thinking strictly on the Juggernaut versus Guardian Combat Styles as they have different animations.

[Thepyrethatburns]

Lol am I only one who is absolutely against combat styles? This is just a **** that destroyes the spirit and core of this game entirely. Game absolutely has no need of it.

 

Honestly.....

 

Yes, I'm against this but it is what it is. Maybe I will look back on this post a year from now and say "Combat styles worked out a lot better than I thought they would." or maybe I'll say "Man, I wish they had taken a tip from Borderlands on character classes.".

 

As it is, we'll see. BW is going to do what they're going to do at this point. Personally, I'd like to keep things how they are on the classes but I might be wrong and this will be a good thing.

[Soljin]

Honestly.....

 

Yes, I'm against this but it is what it is. Maybe I will look back on this post a year from now and say "Combat styles worked out a lot better than I thought they would." or maybe I'll say "Man, I wish they had taken a tip from Borderlands on character classes.".

 

As it is, we'll see. BW is going to do what they're going to do at this point. Personally, I'd like to keep things how they are on the classes but I might be wrong and this will be a good thing.

 

Historically Bioware will ask for feedback and then ignore it entirely or completely miss the point and instead twist the suggestion into something much less fun then the original suggestion.

 

This is the first time that I have read through an expansion announcement and had zero understanding of what they are proposing...Combat styles are so vaguely described that I almost think its intentional to try and wrangle interest in the game at a time of mass exodus from WoW... Like BW doesnt even have a a real plan they just saw an opportunity and jumped on it to try and catch some of the players flooding to Final Fantasy...