Combat styles are death of game

[OlBuzzard]

Just an FYI .. The story behind KotFE / ET wasn't the issue in and of itself.

 

There were several things that hurt that entire release:

** The removal of ALL "current companions" ( kind of what we have now). This happened unannounced. Suddenly all those companions that many had spent a lot of credits on bringing them up to "MAX" level. This was at a time when credits meant a LOT more then than they do now !! Suddenly they all disappeared and there was NO immediate plans to bring them back.

 

BAD MOVE (for more than one reason).

 

** Game play mechanics changed too ! ( Sorry I don't remember the specifics ) ... BUT there was an uproar over that as well. ALSO a bad move !

 

** New armor system which really was not that good !! (I know I hated it royally ... but never said that much about it. In fact I rarely EVER posted on the forums back then. )

 

** Then there was the writers strike. We had to select from a list of text to select what was "being said". THAT was really bad (IMO). In fairness to the team that wasn't their choice and they had to make the best of a bad situation.

 

** ALL 8 class stories was trimmed down to one !!

 

REALLY BAD move !

 

I DID LIKE the fact that we could repeat the individual chapters at a later time on a more difficult level !! THAT was sweet !!

 

I personally like the overall STORY behind KotFE / ET. YES IT was Star Wars ! BUT there were so many other things that changed dramatically all at once WITH the release of KotFE that we lost thousands of players. Exact numbers ... NOPE ! But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the bottom line.

 

SINCE Ossus (JUS) there has been a steady downward trickle of genuine story content and the subsequent reflective activities that go with said releases.

 

JUS saw the continued elimination of our companions (in actual practice and story applications) ... and Onslaught has finally seen only a trickle (or token representation) of yet another part of what made the game to a LOT of players.

 

Combat styles may change ... but if it is handled as it currently has been demonstrated on PTS it will create more difficulties than it will fix. I do not have an appropriate command of the techno-babble to express just exactly how to approach the matter.

 

IMO ... this quote from another player has found one of the better summations of the topic of combat styles and where things MIGHT be headed and perhaps a little better perspective on the subject.

(here is the quote: )

Summarized best by:

 

https://vulkk.com/2021/07/11/swtor-7-0-pts-guardian-combat-styles-first-look/

 

 

if AIN'T BROKEN why BREAK IT. :D

 

 

 

NO I don't expect some folks to agree with my assessment of what has happened and where we are at. That said IMO if we don't learn from what happened in the past we are POTENTIALLY headed for another exodus.

 

YES ... change is coming. That is inevitable. I still say there is a big piece of the puzzle that we are not getting. Something simply does not add up !!

 

YES ... IMO there is reason for concern.

 

YES .. there is a history that throws up a red flag

 

And ... I think that's kind of where I'd like to leave that right now ! I hope that those from the team who read this take it in the light I'm trying to present it ( I wish I could do better ).

[Nee-Elder]

ESO grew their playerbases by continually doubling down on their content, updates, etc, allowed them to grow as opposed to them focusing on a single aspect like story.

 

Yep, i play ESO sometimes and run our guild over there too, so i'm well aware of the differences (and similarities) between that dev team and ours here at SWTOR.

 

Numbers tend to go up for MMOs when expansions release, but what were those numbers like compared to the game's numbers during the previous expansion or the expansion before that or even the next expansion which was also story focused.

What exactly are you seeing from SWTOR that shows it's growing the way FF14 or ESO did instead of basically staying in the same place?

The numbers going up whenever a new expansion is released only for it to level back out again isn't growing, it's the same cycle repeating.

 

Which is why, imho, constantly yanking the foundational 'combat rug' from underneath our fickle player-feet every couple years isn't necessarily the best route to go. And here we go again?

 

You must be seeing an entirely different audience of people

 

For sure, which is actually sort of encouraging, no? ( diversity and all that good stuff )

 

That's the stuff you found that people enjoyed really? And they loved going through it again and again on numerous alts with very little change to the story or overall experience?

 

Well, with the darkside/lightside choices AND male/female differences, lots of people i've talked to def. enjoy "repeating" KOTFE/KOTET (and all the Class stories too) .

 

/shrug , guess they just followed BioWare's own advice a few years ago? (re: BW Producer actually said in public: "If you're bored with our game, go roll another ALT!" <----i'm paraphrasing there)

 

It's like you didn't actually pay attention to what I said and instead just quoted a small part of what I stated only so you yourself could just end up repeating what I said. Brilliant!

 

I've read a few of your posts , yes , but there's also a ton of forum activity happening now around here, so i didn't exactly memorize everything you've posted lol. Certainly didn't mean to "copy" you or whatever.

 

Plus, i guess perhaps 2 people can actually agree on certain things without actually knowing they're in agreement? Will wonders never cease.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[Severith]

It means SWTOR will continue on the same way that games like Age of Conan, Star Trek Online, Everquest, etc, have been for years now.

 

For as many people like you who like to speak in hyperbole and blow things out of proportion about how X,Y, and/or Z are the death of the game or whatever they seem to forget or completely ignore the fact that the survivability of MMOs tends to stretch beyond what people think.

 

Other than Wildstar how many notable MMOs have actually shut down in the last several years? But yeah SWTOR is now all of a sudden in real danger because of this specific change

 

 

 

Lol yeah right. Let's pretend that SWTOR was intentionally sticking to those dated concepts because that was their ongoing design philosophy and not because the game got stuck there due to lack of resources or technical issues.

 

 

 

Kind of like when they got rid of skill trees huh? People were saying literally the exact same thing you are now and yet somehow the game survived and continued onwards. I wonder how/why that happened?

 

This isn't anything new, and if you've stuck around through all those past changes you'll no doubt be sticking around through these too.

 

At what point did I say the game was going to die?

 

These changes are designed for people who don't like SWTOR to play SWTOR. SWTOR survives, as I've stated before, on a revolving door business model. Get people in, get them hooked on the decent vanilla story content, get them to sub, and spend money on the cartel market, and let them leave when it's obvious the game isn't supported the way it should be.

 

If SWTOR wasn't Star Wars, it would have died. It's whale bait. The changes to design philosophy won't effect that, but it will drive away the veteran players, and the shallow gameplay won't be an issue for the new players until well after they've swiped their credit cards.

 

If they gut the guardian/jugg like they're intending, no I won't be sticking around. Just like I stopped playing vengeance at end game when they turned it into a fluff aoe spec, and had to hop to skank tanking. This time I'll have nothing to hop to, except to a different mmo that actually has the support of the company behind it.

 

You project way too much. You also spelled your name wrong. You forgot the L and the I in front of the V.

[Kass]

This is not true.

 

...

 

KOTFE was a story-focused update and it was poorly received. It didn't grow their audience.

 

 

 

Show me the Metrics...

 

Because if you can't, your just talking out your Sarlacc Pit, acting like your posts are Gold text posts.

 

Story is the very foundation of SWTOR - it is KOTOR 3+4+5+6 to whenever they decided to do a KOTOR Andromeda _embarrassed :

 

There are some excellent posts outside of this thread that clearly and convincingly argue against Ability Pruning.

 

I myself think that the addition of Combat Styles and Loadouts is germane and no big deal - If a Inquisitor is given the ability to play Sorcerer spec one moment, and then later realizes Darkness would be better in an Operation because they can't find a Tank for their run... who does that harm?

 

The real harm of what is being proposed has been better articulated by others, and I'm not your Google Assistant so I'm not going to go do find the thread. But Culling DCD's is highly concerning, and pruning abilities for a potential audience rather than the one you already serve is even more concerning.

 

If they knew this was definitively the way to go, then they wouldn't be early alpha trialing this on PTS - and they wouldn't be so 'open' to player feedback, and they wouldn't be so cautious in trying to win over the community to this massive mechanics change.

 

This reeks of Executive - coming from the top - shenanigans of trying to boost the pool of players to increase micro-transaction revenue. (Because if you think your and my subscription perks are what fund this game, you are sadly mistaken... it's the micro-transaction model that EA loves)

 

So before anyone says ... well yeah it's there game... yep it sure is, and if they don't want to hear opposition then they can set the Moderators on anyone posting criticism... but they asked for our feedback and they're damn well gonna get it, regardless of any naysayers that are happy to go along with "Daddy EA knows Best".

Edited July 20, 2021 by Kass

[Darth-Obvious]

At what point did I say the game was going to die?

 

I said people like you who like to speak in hyperbole. I never said you said the game was going to die but you continually make the situation out to be "the worst thing ever" when if existing history is anything to go by it won't make as significant of a difference as you're making it out to be in the grand scheme of things.

 

These changes are designed for people who don't like SWTOR to play SWTOR. SWTOR survives, as I've stated before, on a revolving door business model. Get people in, get them hooked on the decent vanilla story content, get them to sub, and spend money on the cartel market, and let them leave when it's obvious the game isn't supported the way it should be.

 

Oh so it's an MMO then? What you're describing there is a wholly unique experience to SWTOR is it?

 

If SWTOR wasn't Star Wars, it would have died. It's whale bait. The changes to design philosophy won't effect that, but it will drive away the veteran players, and the shallow gameplay won't be an issue for the new players until well after they've swiped their credit cards.

 

If Star Trek Online wasn't Star Trek it would've died. If Dungeons And Dragons wasn't Dungeons and Dragons it would've died, if Elder Scrolls wasn't Elder Scrolls it would've died. Seeing a reoccurring theme here? It's almost like the majority of established MMOs are based on an existing IP. I wonder why that is? But lets keep acting like that's something specific to SWTOR and not yet another genre-wide thing.

 

You project way too much.

 

Says the guy who states his assumptions as fact in order to validate himself.

[Darth-Obvious]

Show me the Metrics...

 

Because if you can't, your just talking out your Sarlacc Pit, acting like your posts are Gold text posts.

 

Show me the metrics of where KOTFE brought in millions of new players. Oh weird you can't do that can you?

 

Focusing just on the story in SWTOR isn't going to accomplish that because guess what, the story can be bad, the amount of time between updates can be too long, the amount of content featured in those stories might not be enough to get people to subscribe, the gameplay could be tedious, etc.

 

In your mind you just assume that if they focus on the story it'll all be great but there's not guarantee of that especially when existing history has been all over the place with the game.

 

Story is the very foundation of SWTOR - it is KOTOR 3+4+5+6 to whenever they decided to do a KOTOR Andromeda _embarrassed :

 

You understand that if EA wanted to trend on marketing and brand recognition they could put out a game called "Knights of The Old Republic 3" right? Just because that's how SWTOR was pitched/sold over a decade ago doesn't mean EA (or anyone) needs to adhere to it now.

 

There are some excellent posts outside of this thread that clearly and convincingly argue against Ability Pruning.

 

I myself think that the addition of Combat Styles and Loadouts is germane and no big deal - If a Inquisitor is given the ability to play Sorcerer spec one moment, and then later realizes Darkness would be better in an Operation because they can't find a Tank for their run... who does that harm?

 

The real harm of what is being proposed has been better articulated by others, and I'm not your Google Assistant so I'm not going to go do find the thread. But Culling DCD's is highly concerning, and pruning abilities for a potential audience rather than the one you already serve is even more concerning.

 

Yes, there are, but that doesn't change the fact that simply adding more story is going to fix SWTOR or solve all of it's problems like you're making the situation out to be.

 

I've already stated it before that SWTOR's problems with combat aren't a result of there being too many abilities but rather its combat has never really been or felt great whether it has a bunch of abilities or not.

 

The success of WoW and FF14 show that a large audience of people can be okay with lots of abilities however I don't know that SWTOR justifies it as well or looks/feels as good as those games do.

 

With SWTOR when you look at the way it moves, feels, plays, animates, etc, it's relatively stiff compared to what else is out there.

 

You can see how stiff/rigid something like WoW started off via WoW Classic but the difference in the smoothness of animations, flow of combat, etc, is night and day compared to modern WoW.

 

FF14 at times moves and animates like a character action game, like something you'd see from Platinum Games especially if you look at something like the Monk class and how its animations flow into one another yet it still has multiple rows of skills bars and what not just like WoW and SWTOR.

 

When people play SWTOR or watch videos of it I think it comes across as very stiff or archaic looking to a lot of people. They see characters with lightsabers, force powers, blasters, etc, but for the most part they just see characters/players standing in place like it was a turned based RPG or something instead of something that looks or feels like Star Wars.

 

SWTOR doesn't need to play like ESO or Battlefront or Jedi Fallen Order or whatever but it could have more visual flair to it. The animations could be improved. Skills could chain/link together better, etc.

 

If they knew this was definitively the way to go, then they wouldn't be early alpha trialing this on PTS - and they wouldn't be so 'open' to player feedback, and they wouldn't be so cautious in trying to win over the community to this massive mechanics change.

 

No, plenty of online games don't have test servers and it's not because the devs are 100% confident in all the choices they make and with many of those other games players will often suggest that X game should have test servers to get more player feedback before an update goes live.

 

This reeks of Executive - coming from the top - shenanigans of trying to boost the pool of players to increase micro-transaction revenue. (Because if you think your and my subscription perks are what fund this game, you are sadly mistaken... it's the micro-transaction model that EA loves)

 

You might have a point if the EA executives actually knew anything about how the game works. You seriously believe an EA executive was one who came up with Combat Styles?

 

If EA would be pushing them to do anything it's would be to make more CM items or come up with more CM features.

 

If Combat Styles were something you could purchase with CC then it would absolutely make more sense that it was coming from EA but as it stands Combat Styles comes across as a Bioware Austin idea, not an EA idea.

 

So before anyone says ... well yeah it's there game... yep it sure is, and if they don't want to hear opposition then they can set the Moderators on anyone posting criticism... but they asked for our feedback and they're damn well gonna get it, regardless of any naysayers that are happy to go along with "Daddy EA knows Best".

 

Okay, that's fine, but none of that explains how just focusing on the story would suddenly get this game millions of new players/subscribers.

 

Doing more story stuff is definitely something people want but it's by no means a fix for the state the game is in nor would it turn anything around and you would still run into the same problems of significant content droughts between story updates with the resources Bioware Austin has now.

 

You either need to figure out how to convince EA to do A Realm Reborn with SWTOR or figure out how Bioware Austin can best utilize limited resources. For example, how do they get more story content out at a faster rate with the resources they currently have? They tried going the episodic route in order to achieve that but not everybody seemed to be on board with that. So then what's the solution or is it just a bad situation that ultimately can't deliver you what you want based on the way things currently are?

[Sarova]

Having just finished trying out the latest changes on the PTS, if it stays even remotely like it is now, the OP is correct. I know it's supposed to be a restricted version of what they intend however, it's awful Hopefully our feedback will give them cause to overhaul it completely. If anyone in this thread hasn't been on the PTS yet, please do and then give your feedback constructively as it all helps (I hope).

[ssupercid]

I can tell you 4.0 KOTFE might be the cause of killing the game for me as a returning player if I could pinpoint which patch it was. I'm someone who enjoyed a nice progression, gearing myself and my comps, and having some nice fights in my chapters 1-3 class story. Now that I've come back all I can notice is everything that was removed.

 

Compared to when I last played it seems all the unique gear drops in the leveling system are gone, and all the main chapter quests have been dumbed down.

 

And now they are on the cusp of taking away the little bit that keeps combat interesting even after they already took away the base class utilities and channeled abilities.

 

I don't understand why they make such radical changes without optional toggles and/or avoiding cutting out such major portions of the game where it can be avoided.

 

-Instead of killing the traditional 1-50 leveling experience why not just add a permanent toggleable 12x/20xp modifier?

-Instead of killing the uniqueness of companions why not make the influence/gearing system toggleable?

 

I don't see anyway where the simplification and removal of 3-5 abilities per class that also calls for the rebalance of almost all combat scenarios doesn't result in the solution being to simplify all those boss fights aswell. As much as I like Cutscenes and Story there still has to be variable gameplay to back it up.

Edited July 20, 2021 by ssupercid

[Severith]

I said people like you who like to speak in hyperbole. I never said you said the game was going to die but you continually make the situation out to be "the worst thing ever" when if existing history is anything to go by it won't make as significant of a difference as you're making it out to be in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

 

Oh so it's an MMO then? What you're describing there is a wholly unique experience to SWTOR is it?

 

 

 

If Star Trek Online wasn't Star Trek it would've died. If Dungeons And Dragons wasn't Dungeons and Dragons it would've died, if Elder Scrolls wasn't Elder Scrolls it would've died. Seeing a reoccurring theme here? It's almost like the majority of established MMOs are based on an existing IP. I wonder why that is? But lets keep acting like that's something specific to SWTOR and not yet another genre-wide thing.

 

 

 

Says the guy who states his assumptions as fact in order to validate himself.

 

Can you give an actual quote of this hyperbole? Or are you just stuffing people into categories for your own narratives, and then condemning them for being in that category?

 

Star Wars is one of the biggest IPs in history, if not the biggest. In terms of milking whales, none of your examples even comes close to what SWTOR can do. SWTOR can sustain itself just on casual fandom. It doesn't need to be a good game to exist, nor does it need to cater to the players who enjoy it the most to make money. That's the issue.

 

If you ask SWTOR vets if they've got too many buttons, they'll say no, on most of the classes. If you ask the casual Star Wars fan, trying out SWTOR for the 3rd day of playing, if his fury marauder has too many buttons, he's probably going to say yes.

 

These changes are not geared for player retention, they're geared for new player turnaround, at the cost of player retention. If that doesn't concern you, you might as well get a head start on your next hobby.

[ssupercid]

Can you give an actual quote of this hyperbole? Or are you just stuffing people into categories for your own narratives, and then condemning them for being in that category?

 

Star Wars is one of the biggest IPs in history, if not the biggest. In terms of milking whales, none of your examples even comes close to what SWTOR can do. SWTOR can sustain itself just on casual fandom. It doesn't need to be a good game to exist, nor does it need to cater to the players who enjoy it the most to make money. That's the issue.

 

If you ask SWTOR vets if they've got too many buttons, they'll say no, on most of the classes. If you ask the casual Star Wars fan, trying out SWTOR for the 3rd day of playing, if his fury marauder has too many buttons, he's probably going to say yes.

 

These changes are not geared for player retention, they're geared for new player turnaround, at the cost of player retention. If that doesn't concern you, you might as well get a head start on your next hobby.

 

What I don't understand is that they could easily focus on making content updates that don't murder one playerbase for another.

 

They already changed the combat difficulty for the "story-mode" so that any idiot can put 3 buttons on their toolbar with a healing companion and win.

 

These new combat changes don't actually grab new players as they can easily ignore the "extra" abilities they have, which they are already probably doing.

 

Simplifying/merging abilities that have existed since launch just kills the current playerbase.

Edited July 20, 2021 by ssupercid

[Severith]

What I don't understand is that they could easily focus on making content updates that don't murder one playerbase for another.

 

They already changed the combat difficulty for the "story-mode" so that any idiot can put 3 buttons on their toolbar with a healing companion and win.

 

These new combat changes don't actually grab new players as they can easily ignore the "extra" abilities they have, which they are already probably doing.

 

Bioware just loves killing the current playerbase.

 

The current playerbase has, more or less, already bought all the stuff they want and need from the Cartel Market. It's less expensive to try and sell existing items to new players than it is to make engaging content and good gameplay.

[Tsillah]

I personally like the overall STORY behind KotFE / ET. YES IT was Star Wars ! BUT there were so many other things that changed dramatically all at once WITH the release of KotFE that we lost thousands of players. Exact numbers ... NOPE ! But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the bottom line.

I just want to highlight this part. A number of people, like yourself, did like the story. I, among a number of others really did not like the story. So it's a matter of opinion, however, too many people didn't like it. Whatever the reasons might've been, the bottom line is that too many people were ticked off by the story.

 

And yes the other thing was the decision to up all existing ops to max level instead of making new ops and that also ticked a lot of people to the point that they left. That was 4.0 and with 5.0 BiS gearing was made available with GC which I will dub GFU (I'll leave you to figure that one out ). The thrill of the hunt except it was all RNG and now with 6.0 they made BiS gearing a complete joke. So really just the staunchest of raiders are left now. Ossus just made people get used to overgearing which is now the norm.

 

So with that in mind we now get combat styles. It's no wonder that people freak out, though once you give it a think I suspect that there are other things to worry about. Like what will happen to gearing and will the ops/fps be raised to max level or are they keeping this bizarre inbetween of having level 70 ops, one level 75 ops and one level 80 ops, for example? My view is that they either should be set back to their individual original levels or all at max level. Will the set bonuses stay the same? And if so, can we keep the current shells then? What about amplifiers?

 

BW is gonna do what they're gonna do. I've said my piece about combat styles but I do wonder what else will happen that we don't know about yet.

[ssupercid]

The current playerbase has, more or less, already bought all the stuff they want and need from the Cartel Market. It's less expensive to try and sell existing items to new players than it is to make engaging content and good gameplay.

 

Well that really is the crux of it, it really is an issue with most MMOs anyway. How far and long can you extend the endgame? Spend money and sell more endgame content to the Vets, or simplify the game/make combat styles to sell on the Cartel Market.

 

They could at least re-sell the old game again as a Classic Server, which is all I want lol

[OlBuzzard]

I just want to highlight this part. A number of people, like yourself, did like the story. I, among a number of others really did not like the story. So it's a matter of opinion, however, too many people didn't like it. Whatever the reasons might've been, the bottom line is that too many people were ticked off by the story.

 

And yes the other thing was the decision to up all existing ops to max level instead of making new ops and that also ticked a lot of people to the point that they left. That was 4.0 and with 5.0 BiS gearing was made available with GC which I will dub GFU (I'll leave you to figure that one out ). The thrill of the hunt except it was all RNG and now with 6.0 they made BiS gearing a complete joke. So really just the staunchest of raiders are left now. Ossus just made people get used to overgearing which is now the norm.

 

So with that in mind we now get combat styles. It's no wonder that people freak out, though once you give it a think I suspect that there are other things to worry about. Like what will happen to gearing and will the ops/fps be raised to max level or are they keeping this bizarre inbetween of having level 70 ops, one level 75 ops and one level 80 ops, for example? My view is that they either should be set back to their individual original levels or all at max level. Will the set bonuses stay the same? And if so, can we keep the current shells then? What about amplifiers?

 

BW is gonna do what they're gonna do. I've said my piece about combat styles but I do wonder what else will happen that we don't know about yet.

 

I kind a wished you had not pulled that one part out.

 

The point I was making in that post is that there were a number of things that all hit at one time.. including a story that "many" did not like. IMO .. it was Star Wars. ( wouldn't be surprised if we don't see Palpatine return in yet another form ) . This is the nature of how the genre has evolved.

 

That said ... when coupled with the mechanics and what (in my opinion) was a horrible gearing system PLUS the total loss of ALL companions AND the erasure of all 8 story lines... KotFE / ET had to be one of the most difficult parts of the game to endure. MANY players have admitted that there has been a serious content drought for some time now even since JUS.

 

JUS was a step in the right direction ... but even after JUS it was waaaay to long before we saw anything new. It also brought us endless grinding for gear. (One of the worst gearing systems in the history of SWTOR to me personally).

 

The current gearing system at least allows a player to get what is needed to have 306 (top end gear) AND accessories (ear pieces, relics .. etc) to go in those pieces. There are even some of the same set bonus pieces that drop when completing weekly CQ's. ( you don't have to wait for tech fragments to get a complete set) . Heck .. If a player is watching they can pick up some decent mods with nice amplifiers without having to re-roll. I'm not quite certain as to the benefit of those amplifiers ... but somehow I can't help but to wonder if we don't see a clear cut necessity for them in the near future. Soooo I'm starting to watch stuff before I deconstruct it a lot more carefully.

 

The single biggest part of all of this: so much of the rest of the game is being pushed aside in favor of yet another stage of the game that (for now) just doesn't make sense as far as "why we need this".

 

OH ! I do agree that the current BiS for augments is totally nuts. I have no intention of messing with them right now. If they were available through some FP rewards (or something similar ) .. that might be worth a shot !

 

Changing the combat styles right now seems to fall in the same category of : current BiS Augments OR re-rolling Amplifiers that really don't seem to server any practical purpose. Hopefully this major change in combat styles isn't a response to how both the amplifier system and the BiS Arguments have been received.

 

IN the end ... you are right. The team is going to do what they are going to do. I just hope that when the dust settles that there is plenty of content .. a descent gearing system ( continuing what we have is fine ) and a few more of the things that really are what made this game along the way that seems to have been gradually pushed aside.

[Kurj]

I keep telling myself that they want to simplify the combat system because they think it will help retain new players who are overwhelmed with button bloat at the end-game. And I'll admit - sometimes control mapping is a PITA with so many abilities. I just hope they don't lose the "feel" of the game in the process. Through all of the changes we've seen, the game has always "felt" great to play. Fingers crossed they don't mess that up.

[Kass]

Show me the metrics of where KOTFE brought in millions of new players. Oh weird you can't do that can you?

 

Focusing just on the story in SWTOR isn't going to accomplish that because guess what, the story can be bad, the amount of time between updates can be too long, the amount of content featured in those stories might not be enough to get people to subscribe, the gameplay could be tedious, etc.

 

In your mind you just assume that if they focus on the story it'll all be great but there's not guarantee of that especially when existing history has been all over the place with the game.

 

 

 

You understand that if EA wanted to trend on marketing and brand recognition they could put out a game called "Knights of The Old Republic 3" right? Just because that's how SWTOR was pitched/sold over a decade ago doesn't mean EA (or anyone) needs to adhere to it now.

 

 

 

Yes, there are, but that doesn't change the fact that simply adding more story is going to fix SWTOR or solve all of it's problems like you're making the situation out to be.

 

I've already stated it before that SWTOR's problems with combat aren't a result of there being too many abilities but rather its combat has never really been or felt great whether it has a bunch of abilities or not.

 

 

 

 

 

No, plenty of online games don't have test servers and it's not because the devs are 100% confident in all the choices they make and with many of those other games players will often suggest that X game should have test servers to get more player feedback before an update goes live.

 

 

 

You might have a point if the EA executives actually knew anything about how the game works. You seriously believe an EA executive was one who came up with Combat Styles?

 

If EA would be pushing them to do anything it's would be to make more CM items or come up with more CM features.

 

If Combat Styles were something you could purchase with CC then it would absolutely make more sense that it was coming from EA but as it stands Combat Styles comes across as a Bioware Austin idea, not an EA idea.

 

 

 

Okay, that's fine, but none of that explains how just focusing on the story would suddenly get this game millions of new players/subscribers.

 

Doing more story stuff is definitely something people want but it's by no means a fix for the state the game is in nor would it turn anything around and you would still run into the same problems of significant content droughts between story updates with the resources Bioware Austin has now.

 

You either need to figure out how to convince EA to do A Realm Reborn with SWTOR or figure out how Bioware Austin can best utilize limited resources. For example, how do they get more story content out at a faster rate with the resources they currently have? They tried going the episodic route in order to achieve that but not everybody seemed to be on board with that. So then what's the solution or is it just a bad situation that ultimately can't deliver you what you want based on the way things currently are?

 

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because I have no idea what you are actually trying to say? And I'm not in this thread to argue with the likes of a 4 percent-er for my own entertainment - though the thought did cross my mind.

 

I never took a position that KotET/KotFE brought in millions of subscribers or players.

 

I asked you to back up your position, and instead of answering with some evidence to support your position you answered a question with a question.

 

So feel free to toot your own horn friend, but I don't think you see how you come across - so don't be surprised with the inevitable backlash from folks on the forums that know a bit more than you do.

 

Good luck; you're gonna need it.

[Kass]

Having just finished trying out the latest changes on the PTS, if it stays even remotely like it is now, the OP is correct. I know it's supposed to be a restricted version of what they intend however, it's awful Hopefully our feedback will give them cause to overhaul it completely. If anyone in this thread hasn't been on the PTS yet, please do and then give your feedback constructively as it all helps (I hope).

 

Need to make sure this quote rises above the din of narcissism that seems to be boiling to the surface for some.

 

I myself tried to go on PTS but ran into two issues:

 

1) I don't know the play style of Guardian since I always play Assassin, so wasn't keen on the learning curve, but my eye's popped out when I noticed how lean the abilities were and not in a good way.

 

2) I'm not walking - Period. And Mounts are at Speeder Control 1 (or whatever the skill is called) so it's the same as running. Nah, forget that, you want me to test PTS but make me run everywhere to do it... just a big ol' bag of NOPE.

 

 

But it would be helpful if there were more PTS feedback posts in this thread, despite it not being in the PTS forum.

[Darth-Obvious]

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

Maybe look at yourself in this thread before asking anyone that question...

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=995320&page=6

 

And I'm not in this thread to argue with the likes of a 4 percent-er for my own entertainment - though the thought did cross my mind.

 

Again, note this thread...

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=995320&page=6

 

Because I have no idea what you are actually trying to say?

 

......

 

If Bioware put its development time and efforts into STORY again, then that alone will grow the audience and subscriber base - and people will learn to play what they love, just like we all did a long time ago...

 

That, what you said there, above, is not true, at least not to the degree you're making it out to be or suggesting it will be.

 

Focusing on the story won't fix SWTOR or grow the audience to the point that it needs to be at for EA to significantly re-invest in this game the way they need to.

 

I would love it if we got more story content, it's my favorite part of the game, but the reality is still what it's been for the last several years with this game and that's that Bioware Austin has too few resources to the point where focusing on the story won't ultimately accomplish anything more than the times they've done so in the past because the story updates will (potentially) be underwhelming or too far and few between for people to stay with the game.

 

For example, you seem to be under the impression that if they focus more on the story that you'd get more story updates and get them faster but that's not the case. You'd still see significant gaps like 6 months to a year between story updates the way we/you currently are. The dream would for it would to obviously be more in line with something like FF14's update cycle but SWTOR can't do that without having the same type of resources or audience that FF14 does nor can it get to that point just by focusing on the story.

 

I never took a position that KotET/KotFE brought in millions of subscribers or players.

 

I didn't say you did but you keep saying/suggesting that focusing on the story is what will grow the player base but they had two back to back expansions where they focused on the story and yet SWTOR has continued to stay in same relative position over the years despite your claims.

 

I asked you to back up your position, and instead of answering with some evidence to support your position you answered a question with a question.

 

Because you can't back up the position I was responding to which was...

 

If Bioware put its development time and efforts into STORY again, then that alone will grow the audience and subscriber base - and people will learn to play what they love, just like we all did a long time ago...

 

Where is the evidence that this is a 100% fact or that this will solve SWTOR's problems or that it would bring any significant amount of players back to the game? How does focusing on story solve their issues of having year-long gaps between updates? Because even if or when they've focused on story one of the biggest complaints from the playerbase is that the story updates are far too infrequent but guess what focusing on story won't change that problem so why keep claiming or suggesting that focusing on story is the magic cure all for the game?

 

It's almost like the game needs a massive A Realm Reborn style overhaul (with a bigger staff, a bigger budget, more resources to work with, etc) to actually grow the player base by any significant degree instead of making the claim that story, and story alone, is what would do it.

[Darth-Obvious]

Can you give an actual quote of this hyperbole? Or are you just stuffing people into categories for your own narratives, and then condemning them for being in that category?

 

...................

 

"Combat styles" aren't even choosing your characters preferred weapons or fighting techniques, it's just a straight up class change. Nobody wanted or needed this, it's just a copy paste from FF14, a game where making alts and leveling through the base game is miserable.

 

Speaking in absolutes about what it is and isn't, what people did or didn't want, that it's just copy and pasted from FF14 despite that not being how FF14 actually works.

 

Star Wars is one of the biggest IPs in history, if not the biggest. In terms of milking whales, none of your examples even comes close to what SWTOR can do. SWTOR can sustain itself just on casual fandom. It doesn't need to be a good game to exist, nor does it need to cater to the players who enjoy it the most to make money. That's the issue.

 

Wait so Star Trek Online is a good game and that's why it exists? None of those other games I listed are/were solely banking on the IP and are doing exactly what their player bases want and that's how they're surviving? Maybe go check out some chatter or forums for those games and see what people are saying about them. See if it doesn't read just like "X is just relying on X brand and milking the whales."

 

What SWTOR really has going it for it over other MMOs is its story. It's the thing that other MMOs compete with on the same level, presentation, engagement or technical level. Is SWTOR's combat the best of any MMO out there? No. Does it have the best raids? No. The best PVP? No. So what is it that SWTOR is actually good at compared to other MMOs? It's story/presentation but nearly every other aspect of SWTOR is severely lagging behind other MMOs or even itself (in all those other aspects) when compared against it's story.

 

If you ask SWTOR vets if they've got too many buttons, they'll say no, on most of the classes. If you ask the casual Star Wars fan, trying out SWTOR for the 3rd day of playing, if his fury marauder has too many buttons, he's probably going to say yes.

 

These changes are not geared for player retention, they're geared for new player turnaround, at the cost of player retention.

 

And as I've said (multiple times now) SWTOR's existing combat does nothing in terms of getting players interested or staying interested. SWTOR's combat by other MMO players is pointed at is being boring, dull, etc, especially when compared against other games like WoW and FF14 that have massive sets of skills.

 

I'm not advocating Combat Styles because of that or saying Combat Styles are the right direction because of that but you keep making the situation out like Combat Styles are turning something that was good (the existing combat) into something that's bad but the existing SWTOR combat isn't/wasn't good. That's the bigger issue here.

 

Games like WoW and FF14 a better job at justifying why they went the route they did with their skill bars and have continued to improve them over time. As a result, people either stick with or flock to those games because their combat can provide a good or better experience.

 

So if SWTOR's combat isn't doing anything to keep players engaged and it's not doing anything to bring players in then it shouldn't be surprising that they're making changes to it in hopes that something will happen rather than keeping it in the same place. Are those changes for the best? Not necessarily but SWTOR's combat (much like the game) needs a significant update/overhaul to get more player investment out of it.

[Kass]

/snip

 

 

Instead of refining your argument, which is now clear you are doing solely for the sake of arguing, proven out by lifting posts in other threads to quote me, that are specific to those threads and insinuating 'something' along the way... maybe you're angling for a personal attack because you're running out of ammunition for your convoluted positions? (I hope not because this is the most underwhelming type of troll - used by people that don't know how to troll - as if some how I would be horrified by my own posts and go run away and hide) _embarrassed :

 

Oh and you might want to throw in the 96% of useful posts I try to make, like:

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9958699&postcount=2

 

That other 4% you've referenced are reserved for only the most deserving souls on the forums

 

But regardless I'm still waiting for you to 'put up or shut up' something to validate your position?

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kass

[Tsillah]

I kind a wished you had not pulled that one part out.

Well, everything else you said about KotFE/ET I agreed with so I didn't comment on that and this part is where I went "wait, wut?"

The point I was making in that post is that there were a number of things that all hit at one time.. including a story that "many" did not like. IMO .. it was Star Wars. ( wouldn't be surprised if we don't see Palpatine return in yet another form ) . This is the nature of how the genre has evolved.

Well and that point was clear to me. I should've said that but I was talking about the story rather than anything else, so that's what I was trying to refocus on. Aside from whether or not it was SW, the story telling as in the movies was always from the perspective of a family member. Anakin, Luke and Rey essentially. Our characters are not related to Valkorion, so we're looking from the outside in. Bystanders in other words. That's what made it feel non-SW to me. That and the obvious plot faults (not holes but faults) and the use of obvious fillers (skytroopers). Oh and there was the deus ex machina approach that really you shouldn't use in story telling too much. So that's why KotFE/ET story telling didn't work for me.

That said ... when coupled with the mechanics and what (in my opinion) was a horrible gearing system PLUS the total loss of ALL companions AND the erasure of all 8 story lines... KotFE / ET had to be one of the most difficult parts of the game to endure. MANY players have admitted that there has been a serious content drought for some time now even since JUS.

Yeah, though JUS was just a patch and not an expansion even but I do think it could've been an expansion cause it's not far off. The drought happened BEFORE JUS though. To compare 5.0 came out Nov 2016, JUS came out DEC 2018 and 6.0 came out Oct 2019. SWTOR had the biggest gap between expansions between 5.0 and 6.0 and this was all before covid.

JUS was a step in the right direction ... but even after JUS it was waaaay to long before we saw anything new. It also brought us endless grinding for gear. (One of the worst gearing systems in the history of SWTOR to me personally).

Well they democratized BiS gear by making it available to solo players as well. The trade off was the grind. I had taken a break Jan 2017 because I hated GC and I came back mid 2019. So I didn't experience the release of JUS. They must've changed something by then because I made 10 new characters and had them leveled and geared in 252 gear within a month. 258 gear felt superfluous to me as it was.

The current gearing system at least allows a player to get what is needed to have 306 (top end gear) AND accessories (ear pieces, relics .. etc) to go in those pieces. There are even some of the same set bonus pieces that drop when completing weekly CQ's. ( you don't have to wait for tech fragments to get a complete set) . Heck .. If a player is watching they can pick up some decent mods with nice amplifiers without having to re-roll. I'm not quite certain as to the benefit of those amplifiers ... but somehow I can't help but to wonder if we don't see a clear cut necessity for them in the near future. Soooo I'm starting to watch stuff before I deconstruct it a lot more carefully.

I understand you see this as a good thing, but having raided in SWTOR for many years, it feels like a bad thing. First of all, the took gearing away from ops (though GC and JUS already started that trend) entirely. So now you have BiS gear before you even set foot in any ops. That kills progression gearing and I enjoyed that aspect of it. Secondly, I do believe in rewarding effort and they just took it away and didn't replace it with anything else. I think that's a bad thing in a general sense.

The single biggest part of all of this: so much of the rest of the game is being pushed aside in favor of yet another stage of the game that (for now) just doesn't make sense as far as "why we need this".

This is kinda what MMOs tend to do. Even in WoW the earlier levels feel old. I tried the free trial to level 20. It was like I played a 15 year old game. I'm not sure how that is going to bring new players in, but hey, they have enough players anyway.

 

OH ! I do agree that the current BiS for augments is totally nuts. I have no intention of messing with them right now. If they were available through some FP rewards (or something similar ) .. that might be worth a shot !

I completely ignored the new BiS augments. They are entirely superfluous and not worth the effort or cost. I wish casual players would've accepted that they don't actually need BiS gear. Now they do because of the veteran stacks that we get from having 306 gear in content that is level 70 and below.

Changing the combat styles right now seems to fall in the same category of : current BiS Augments OR re-rolling Amplifiers that really don't seem to server any practical purpose. Hopefully this major change in combat styles isn't a response to how both the amplifier system and the BiS Arguments have been received.

Well the current BiS gear will no doubt be replaced with higher rating gear in 7.0. So all of the current gear will be obsolete come december. And the amplifiers will need to be redone on the new gear. It'll be interesting to see what happens with set bonuses and amplifiers but the practical reason is that it's a credit sink. For me though a credit sink that harsh has no place in gearing icm with RNG. I still think that amplifiers should be craftable like augments.

IN the end ... you are right. The team is going to do what they are going to do. I just hope that when the dust settles that there is plenty of content .. a descent gearing system ( continuing what we have is fine ) and a few more of the things that really are what made this game along the way that seems to have been gradually pushed aside.

The dust will settle and then there will be another outrage and the dust will settle again, etc. This is because that's the way BW releases information. Eventually 7.0 will be out and a number of players will leave because of it. That's always the case. However, I hope that it won't be another 5.0. GC really chased a lot of people away, like myself and it took a couple of years for me to come back. That's 2 years of not paying a sub and not making cartel purchases. Now that's just one person, but as I said they chased a lot of people away and it was the final nail in the coffin that lead to the last round of server merges.

 

In the end (yeah I copied you), it all comes down to how may people they chase away vs. the amount of people that come back for more than a month. The net player growth if you will and it shouldn't be far in the negative.

[Darth-Obvious]

Yeah, though JUS was just a patch and not an expansion even but I do think it could've been an expansion cause it's not far off. The drought happened BEFORE JUS though. To compare 5.0 came out Nov 2016, JUS came out DEC 2018 and 6.0 came out Oct 2019. SWTOR had the biggest gap between expansions between 5.0 and 6.0 and this was all before covid.

 

Just throwing this in here but these stats (if accurate) seem to line up with what you're saying

 

https://mmo-population.com/r/swtor/stats

 

The numbers in 2019 are almost a straight line but hit a dip mid-way through the year. After that SWTOR's numbers are constant peaks and valleys. New update releases the numbers shoot up then drop off hard a month or so later.

 

It's typical for MMOs to of course have population spikes when a new update but keeping sustained interest is the hardest part. Other than FF14 not much in recent years has had any kind of steady growth

 

https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv/stats

 

It dips here and there but for the most part it's on a strong/steady incline.

 

It's tough/hard for MMOs to actually grow or sustain an audience because content drought is always going to be a thing (unless you're a new player) and even a game like WoW can't avoid it despite all its resources so MMOs always end up being this constant uphill battle for a variety of reasons. On top of all that if you put out a big update that isn't well received, ie Battle For Azartoh, then it's gonna take that much longer for the devs to be able to right those wrongs because they just finished putting out a giant update that they spent 6 months to a year working on or whatever.

[Sarova]

Need to make sure this quote rises above the din of narcissism that seems to be boiling to the surface for some.

Thank you! I'm glad someone read my post This thread risks being closed as it's mostly people arguing for the sake of it.

 

I myself tried to go on PTS but ran into two issues:

 

1) I don't know the play style of Guardian since I always play Assassin, so wasn't keen on the learning curve, but my eye's popped out when I noticed how lean the abilities were and not in a good way.

 

2) I'm not walking - Period. And Mounts are at Speeder Control 1 (or whatever the skill is called) so it's the same as running. Nah, forget that, you want me to test PTS but make me run everywhere to do it... just a big ol' bag of NOPE.

 

But it would be helpful if there were more PTS feedback posts in this thread, despite it not being in the PTS forum.

That's speed control 1?! It really is slower than my character's run speed!

 

My feedback is here however there's some good feedback in the whole thread.

[Severith]

...................

 

 

 

Speaking in absolutes about what it is and isn't, what people did or didn't want, that it's just copy and pasted from FF14 despite that not being how FF14 actually works.

 

 

 

Wait so Star Trek Online is a good game and that's why it exists? None of those other games I listed are/were solely banking on the IP and are doing exactly what their player bases want and that's how they're surviving? Maybe go check out some chatter or forums for those games and see what people are saying about them. See if it doesn't read just like "X is just relying on X brand and milking the whales."

 

What SWTOR really has going it for it over other MMOs is its story. It's the thing that other MMOs compete with on the same level, presentation, engagement or technical level. Is SWTOR's combat the best of any MMO out there? No. Does it have the best raids? No. The best PVP? No. So what is it that SWTOR is actually good at compared to other MMOs? It's story/presentation but nearly every other aspect of SWTOR is severely lagging behind other MMOs or even itself (in all those other aspects) when compared against it's story.

 

 

 

And as I've said (multiple times now) SWTOR's existing combat does nothing in terms of getting players interested or staying interested. SWTOR's combat by other MMO players is pointed at is being boring, dull, etc, especially when compared against other games like WoW and FF14 that have massive sets of skills.

 

I'm not advocating Combat Styles because of that or saying Combat Styles are the right direction because of that but you keep making the situation out like Combat Styles are turning something that was good (the existing combat) into something that's bad but the existing SWTOR combat isn't/wasn't good. That's the bigger issue here.

 

Games like WoW and FF14 a better job at justifying why they went the route they did with their skill bars and have continued to improve them over time. As a result, people either stick with or flock to those games because their combat can provide a good or better experience.

 

So if SWTOR's combat isn't doing anything to keep players engaged and it's not doing anything to bring players in then it shouldn't be surprising that they're making changes to it in hopes that something will happen rather than keeping it in the same place. Are those changes for the best? Not necessarily but SWTOR's combat (much like the game) needs a significant update/overhaul to get more player investment out of it.

 

At a time when FF14 has overtaken WoW as the most played MMO, Bioware Austin announces that with 7.0 we'll be able to switch classes on singular toons, but in switching they'll still be locked to the weapons for the class we're switching too.

 

In other words, just like FF14. You don't see Dark Knights in FF14 with an axe, or a sword and shield, and you won't see Mercs with a blaster rifle in SWTOR. Coincidence? No. Good for SWTOR? No, or maybe at best. Shameless and lazy in it's implementation? Yes.

 

There was no large movement in the SWTOR community to prune abilities, not even a "manufactured" movement like we see with other changes people want in the game. It's not a pressing issue for people who play the game, it's a potential issue for the executives at EA trying to milk each and every new player that swings by. I'm not against EA making money, but if it's the expense of good gameplay then it's a problem.

 

"A fool and his money are soon parted." EA, and Bioware Austin are taking that to heart. They don't want gamers that have the patience to handle or enjoy complexity. They want gamers who expect immediate gratification, AKA, fools.

[Kass]

Thank you! I'm glad someone read my post This thread risks being closed as it's mostly people arguing for the sake of it.

 

That's speed control 1?! It really is slower than my character's run speed!

 

My feedback is here however there's some good feedback in the whole thread.

 

This was a good PTS Feedback Post: https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9958852&postcount=444

 

And is indicative of what many are warning. Heck you slogged through and actually tried to test, I was on all of 5 minutes and just threw my hands up and quit PTS - and I never PTS because I hate spoilers - this was so bad, that because they have inextricably linked Combat Styles and Ability Pruning in a sure to fail marriage of convenience it feels like we're all getting hauled off to a Shotgun style wedding come this Fall Holiday ETA; and be forced to marry a Wookie!

 

Like seriously, after carefully reading your PTS feedback, I'm absolutely floored that anyone thought this was a good idea or heck even necessary - because mindlessly shilling for Bioware EA on this is so EA-anon that there's no way to take such people seriously and they really are better left categorized as 4 percent-ers.

 

Well my assumption is some version of this travesty is going to make it to live - and not the one that leaves abilities as is and just offers Combat (Discipline) Styles swapping - with Loadouts of prearranged equipment and items.

 

Nope that would be too easy... *sigh _embarrassed :

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kass