In favor of ability pruning

[Kass]

That means there aren't too many buttons.

 

Confirming (after an amazing evening of Assassin Darkness Skank-Tank spec Unranked PVP last night) that there are not too many buttons.

[Severith]

Yeah but that's not fun though, it's not playing a game in a visually rich world anymore it's a hotbar game. I can play it too, but all gameplay involves the rotation vs actually enjoying class fantasy.

 

So I've got my quickbars memorized, and a good feel for when my dcds are back up.

 

I've got a special UI configuration, that minimizes or eliminates almost every element, mostly just showing my HP.

 

I switch to that UI, and zoom into first person mode.

 

Feels like a completely different game, visual details pop up, fun to walk around cities or ships/flashpoints. Combat is kinda weird though, since your character won't render at all, so no animations from your toon render from your own perspective.

 

When you get confident enough in your rotations and muscle memory, give it a try. Another good mmo to try that in is ESO, which actually still has watchable animations from the player perspective.

[Brainbottle]

That means there aren't too many buttons.

 

No, it doesn't. Reducing the ridiculous number of buttons is the main thing I care about, but that does not mean ipso facto it's the only thing the devs are DOING.

 

There are a number of ways the devs could reduce the number of buttons, without significantly reducing the overall utility of the class. Most obviously, they could fold several existing "situatonal" powers into a single new power, that is as good OR BETTER than the sum of it's original parts. But the devs also have an entirely different agenda they're working on at the same time: they want to to "give the player more choices". And here we're talking about character BUILDING choices, rather than "which of these million buttons should I choose between pressing every split second, to avoid getting brutally murdered in PvP by someone who's been playing this game for ten years?"

 

Saber throw is a core skill for the guardian class as we currently know it. As a mark of how utterly basic it is, even *I* regularly use it on my guardian, and would notice if it was suddenly gone. And mind you, the devs won't be eliminating it for ALL guardians, they're "letting you choose it" if you want, but that means you get locked out of two other things. I can't recall what they are, but they are "equally significant" powers, which is entirely the point. That's what makes the choice "meaningful".

 

This is hardly a new design concept. The very fact that you have to choose a class at all is the first and most basic "meaningful choice" in the game, that's been around since day one. But it is entirely predictable that players who are used to having ALL of the core class skills are butt-hurt that the devs will now make them "choose between" them. It's the monkey's paw approach to granting somebody's wish for "more player choices".

 

Not to mention, as much as I want to reduce the number of buttons, even that is getting side-tracked what they actually announced, which is the ability to equip different weapons on all the classes. I hope they haven't forgotten that entirely!

[Kass]

...Reducing the ridiculous number of buttons is the main thing I care about...!

 

Tells us everything we ever need to know about your thought process on this.

 

#muhfeelings #wordsalad

[Brainbottle]

A barrier to entry, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There are very few things about swtor in its current state that are hard to grasp. The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind.

 

Let's take this claim at face value: the only thing you need to do to play a fury is press 12 buttons, always in exactly the same sequence, over and over. That's it. That's your entire "rotation", and there is no deeper skill to it. And learning the rotation "isn't hard", because it's so predictable.

 

Well, that sounds pretty shallow and boring to me. If there's never any actual variation in what power you activate next, why not just have ONE button you press twelve times? Or maybe you could just press it once, and go get a snack while your character plays out the pre-determined "rotation" without needing any further input from you?

 

Having a class that you can play by just pressing one button would be dumb. I want "less buttons", sure, but I don't want a class that could be collapsed into literally a SINGLE button with no loss of game-play complexity. But now here you are, arguing that all thease buttons "aren't that hard to learn" because the game is actually EXACTLY that dumb and meaningless, just below the surface.

 

I am not implressed by the idea of learning a game where the "challenging" part is navigating a complicated interface, to ultimately accomplish something predictable, trivial, and stupid. That's the exact opposite of what I want. I want a deceptively simple INTERFACE, to a game that has hidden layers of nuance and complexity. it should be "easy to learn, but hard to master", not tedious to learn, and stupid to master.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Brainbottle

[Brainbottle]

Tells us everything we ever need to know about your thought process on this.

 

This is not a coherent argument that any part of my opinion is actually WRONG, you merely don't care to listen to it. But I in turn don't care if YOU aren't listening, so why did you bother to write this?

[Dyne-]

Let's take this claim at face value: the only thing you need to do to play a fury is press 12 buttons, always in exactly the same sequence, over and over. That's it. That's your entire "rotation", and there is no deeper skill to it. And learning the rotation "isn't hard", because it's so predictable.

 

Well, that sounds pretty shallow and boring to me. If there's never any actual variation in what power you activate next, why not just have ONE button you press twelve times? Or maybe you could just press it once, and go get a snack while your character plays out the pre-determined "rotation" without needing any further input from you?

 

Having a class that you can play by just pressing one button would be dumb. I want "less buttons", sure, but I don't want a class that could be collapsed into literally a SINGLE button with no loss of game-play complexity. But now here you are, arguing that all thease buttons "aren't that hard to learn" because the game is actually EXACTLY that dumb and meaningless, just below the surface.

 

I am not implressed by the idea of learning a game where the "challenging" part is navigating a complicated interface, to ultimately accomplish something predictable, trivial, and stupid. That's the exact opposite of what I want. I want a deceptively simple INTERFACE, to a game that has hidden layers of nuance and complexity. it should be "easy to learn, but hard to master", not tedious to learn, and stupid to master.

 

I'm not impressed when you show up two weeks later to take one of my comments out of context in an attempt to prove a point that literally no one was trying to make (least of all me).

 

You've created (and debated) your own argument for the sake of saying your piece. However, it's disingenuous of you to imply that your argument is actually something that I believe, implied, or would ever say. You're way off base my friend.

 

You're welcome to read page 1 so you can actually understand what we were talking about. Or, peruse my post history to understand my stance on where the games nuance and complexity lies.

 

Thanks for the laugh though lol.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Dyne-

[Kass]

This is not a coherent argument that any part of my opinion is actually WRONG, you merely don't care to listen to it. But I in turn don't care if YOU aren't listening, so why did you bother to write this?

 

Isn't it obvious? Because you would read it ... of course. _embarrassed :

 

When you craft a post with a coherent argument, then I can spend my valuable time in responding. But there's little need to undertake any effort to explore why you're wrong, when you already are wrong.

 

So please continue to reply and show me how much you 'don't care' if I'm listening... because as unintelligible as your attempts at self aggrandizing bad posting are, I might as well try to read it with my ears.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Kass

[Brainbottle]

I'm not impressed when you show up two weeks later to take one of my comments out of context in an attempt to prove a point that literally no one was trying to make (least of all me).

 

You've created (and debated) your own argument for the sake of saying your piece. However, it's disingenuous of you to imply that your argument is actually something that I believe, implied, or would ever say. You're way off base my friend.

 

You're welcome to read page 1 so you can actually understand what we were talking about. Or, peruse my post history to understand my stance on where the games nuance and complexity lies.

 

Thanks for the laugh though lol.

 

It's true that I picked a rather old post to argue with, in order to make a point I already had in mind. I will completely concede you were right about that part. But I didn't pick that old post "at random", I made a very sincere and honest attempt to look for a legitimate example of the exact attitude I was in the mood to argue with: and even looking at your post a second time, I fail to see how I misunderstood it.

 

This is what you said: "The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind."

 

It still seems to me like you actually said exactly what I was in the mood to argue with, especially when I take it "at face value". And if you don't like your words being taken at face value, what other value should I take it for? Is it such a terrible thing, that I took you to mean what you actually said?

 

If you DIDN'T mean to say that learning fury is easy because it can literally be simplified into pressing a sequence of buttons in a pre-determined order, maybe you shouldn't have said it is in almost those exact words. But if you now want to clarify that you actually meant something entirely different, by all means please explain it now. And please bear with my apparently crippling disability, that I only understand what you SAY.

[Brainbottle]

Isn't it obvious? Because you would read it ... of course. _embarrassed :

 

When you craft a post with a coherent argument, then I can spend my valuable time in responding. But there's little need to undertake any effort to explore why you're wrong, when you already are wrong.

 

So please continue to reply and show me how much you 'don't care' if I'm listening... because as unintelligible as your attempts at self aggrandizing bad posting are, I might as well try to read it with my ears.

 

I came to this forum simply to learn about how "combat styles" was shaping up, only to discover it was overwhelmingly dominated by crusty old grognards incredulously demanding concrete proof that anyone who thought this game has too many buttons even EXISTED.

 

So I decided to share my opinion. And mind you, the point I'm here to prove isn't incredibly elaborate: it is merely that I EXIST. So here is my suprised face that now you're trying to bully me into submission. You want me to leave, so that nobody contradicts your preferred narrative that "nobody" has a problem with all the buttons in this game. Nobody who's opinion you deign to listen to, anyway.

 

This may be the last time I bother to respond to your shallow prevarications, but rest assured I'm not leaving, and I kind of enjoy how clearly that annoys you.

[Kass]

I came to this forum simply to learn about how "combat styles" was shaping up, only to discover it was overwhelmingly dominated by crusty old grognards incredulously demanding concrete proof that anyone who thought this game has too many buttons even EXISTED.

 

So I decided to share my opinion. And mind you, the point I'm here to prove isn't incredibly elaborate: it is merely that I EXIST. So here is my suprised face that now you're trying to bully me into submission. You want me to leave, so that nobody contradicts your preferred narrative that "nobody" has a problem with all the buttons in this game. Nobody who's opinion you deign to listen to, anyway.

 

This may be the last time I bother to respond to your shallow prevarications, but rest assured I'm not leaving, and I kind of enjoy how clearly that annoys you.

 

I hope you stick around for a very very long time, and I hope you will practice creating cogent arguments in favor of your thoughts and positions; and learn gud posting!

 

I also hope you can routinely express that what you are posting is your own opinion, and then attempt to explain why that opinion should sway others and/or why it should be adopted to modify a MMORPG to suit your preferences as opposed to what might be (or not be) best for the game and the community as a whole.

 

And perhaps you didn't pay close enough attention to read my signature --- you in no way annoy me... you my friend have the status of a 4%er given your bad word-salad posting that attempts to sound edumacated despite failing to even spell correct your post, and are as a consequence part of my SWTOR entertainment!

 

 

By all means... PLEASE keep posting!... Frequently!!

Edited August 2, 2021 by Kass

[Brainbottle]

And perhaps you didn't pay close enough attention to read my signature --- you in no way annoy me... you my friend have the status of a 4%er given your bad word-salad posting that attempts to sound edumacated despite failing to even spell correct your post, and are as a consequence part of my SWTOR entertainment!

 

Being educated is not something I'm trying to "prove", as if brandishing a diploma would somehow buttress my thesis that this game has too many buttons. I assure you, the fact that I actually am very well educated is exactly as genuine as it is irrelevant.

[Voroschuk]

If there's never any actual variation in what power you activate next, why not just have ONE button you press twelve times? Or maybe you could just press it once, and go get a snack while your character plays out the pre-determined "rotation" without needing any further input from you?

Haha, this is so true actually, rotation is a brain-dead thing that can be easily done by a macro, I won't be surprised if it is indeed one button for some people)). But if we had more than one variation of ability combinations it will be much more fun even with fewer buttons to press (look at fighting games)

 

I think I have said this before in the other threads, but anyway, the ability pruning is not necessarily a bad thing, if the fighting experience would feel better from it. I would happily trade the number of buttons for more abilities with no cooldown and less cooldown time overall, including GCD, a multiple combo system with different effects and animations depending on the order of buttons you press instead of having a single rotation, being able to click and hold some abilities for channel effect (flamethrower, force lightning, etc.)

 

You have to understand that people you call try-hards are mad at this change not because they don't care about new players experience, since we all want this game to have more people to play with, but because right now this change feels like the devs just took away a 1/3 of their abilities without changing anything else much. And while the new passives are cool and people seem to like them, the complexity and variation of combat are reduced, because rotations are the same (for the most part), and everything else that added variety was pruned, and some people are also worried about their survivability in the harder content.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Voroschuk

[Brainbottle]

Haha, this is so true actually, rotation is a brain-dead thing that can be easily done by a macro, I won't be surprised if it is indeed one button for some people)). But if we had more than one variation of ability combinations it will be much more fun even with fewer buttons to press (look at fighting games).

 

Speaking of fighting games, I've been thinking about mentioning one I heard of a few years ago called "Dive Kick". It's a fighting game with literally just two buttons... "Dive", and "Kick"... but by all reports it distills the challenge of a more conventional fighting game into just those two buttons.

 

Of course, I don't expect SWTOR to get THAT minimalist. But the bloated lists of overly-specific powers they have definitely need trimming, and while that isn't the can of worms I expected them to open when I first heard about "combat styles" it makes perfect sense in hindsight. if they're going to make ANY changes as massive and fundamental as "combat styles", they might as well make ALL the big changes they expect to last them for the next ten years. No sense in breaking it up into two entirely separate disruptions for people to complain about.

 

I'm sure the devs know that if they **** this up badly enough, they might not be around "for the next ten years". That being said, I play a lot of Star Trek online, an MMO that's slightly older and never as massive as SWTOR, but it's still chugging along eleven years later despite the endless wailings of doom-sayers claiming that it was about to shut down since day one. They complain that every big change will ruin the game, or they complain that the LACK of changes proves that the devs have abandoned the game. It can be exhausting, if you take their warnings TOO seriously.

 

On the other hand, ESO proves that "re-thinking long-standing design choices" (that originally amounted to "let's copy the way WoW does it") also has an UP side. Maybe you can find some people who "miss the original ESO", but you can barely hear them over the clamor of newbies who weren't even around back then.

[TrixxieTriss]

Speaking of fighting games, I've been thinking about mentioning one I heard of a few years ago called "Dive Kick". It's a fighting game with literally just two buttons... "Dive", and "Kick"... but by all reports it distills the challenge of a more conventional fighting game into just those two buttons.

 

Of course, I don't expect SWTOR to get THAT minimalist. But the bloated lists of overly-specific powers they have definitely need trimming, and while that isn't the can of worms I expected them to open when I first heard about "combat styles" it makes perfect sense in hindsight. if they're going to make ANY changes as massive and fundamental as "combat styles", they might as well make ALL the big changes they expect to last them for the next ten years. No sense in breaking it up into two entirely separate disruptions for people to complain about.

 

I'm sure the devs know that if they **** this up badly enough, they might not be around "for the next ten years". That being said, I play a lot of Star Trek online, an MMO that's slightly older and never as massive as SWTOR, but it's still chugging along eleven years later despite the endless wailings of doom-sayers claiming that it was about to shut down since day one. They complain that every big change will ruin the game, or they complain that the LACK of changes proves that the devs have abandoned the game. It can be exhausting, if you take their warnings TOO seriously.

 

On the other hand, ESO proves that "re-thinking long-standing design choices" (that originally amounted to "let's copy the way WoW does it") also has an UP side. Maybe you can find some people who "miss the original ESO", but you can barely hear them over the clamor of newbies who weren't even around back then.

 

Look another one

 

More hyperbole. “Overly bloated” specific abilities. Just shows you don’t really play the game much or play harder content. If you want a two button fighting game there are plenty out there. Stop trying to justify BioWare ruining this game. Are you a BioWare PR person?

[Brainbottle]

Look another one

 

More hyperbole. “Overly bloated” specific abilities. Just shows you don’t really play the game much or play harder content. If you want a two button fighting game there are plenty out there. Stop trying to justify BioWare ruining this game. Are you a BioWare PR person?

 

Oh no, you found me out. I actually hate using all this ridiculous hyperbole, but you have to understand that when my bosses at BioWare hired me to post on a forum about this game I've never played for even a second, they absolutely insisted on it. I tried to warn them that this would seem extremely unusual and suspicious, since as we all know most people posting their own genuine opinions on the internet are far too stately and refined to resort to anything as barbarous and uncouth as "hyperbole", but they didn't listen.

 

I probably shouldn't admit all of this to you so openly, but since I'm going to get fired now anyway, why should I try to hide it? The real truth is, EVERYONE on this forum is a paid employee, except you. Even the people who pretend to agree with you here are fully paid imposters, hired exclusively for the purpose of lulling you into a false sense of security.

 

I never really understood WHY BioWare goes through all this elaborate trouble to deceive you, I got stuck in traffic on my first day and showed up late for my orientation seminar, all I know for sure is that the lizard people in charge are VERY concerned with stopping you from grasping the full extent of their insidous plans to... yadda yadda yadda. You know, typical corporate agenda stuff. I honestly kind of dozed through most of it, even after I showed up.

 

I mean, I just WORK for the shadowy lizard people. They didn't pay me enough to CARE!

Edited August 2, 2021 by Brainbottle

[Voroschuk]

Speaking of fighting games, I've been thinking about mentioning one I heard of a few years ago called "Dive Kick". It's a fighting game with literally just two buttons... "Dive", and "Kick"... but by all reports it distills the challenge of a more conventional fighting game into just those two buttons.

That approach works for this game because this is the main feature of it and the main idea behind the game was to find the core gameplay of the fighting game I believe, hence the name. But what if let's say a new installment of Mortal Kombat will have only 2 buttons? Fans won't be happy about it, right?

 

Thing is, whatever they will do to the combat system by no means should feel like a downgrade. Of course, for some people, just the fact of having to deal with fewer buttons may sound like an improvement, and they can't please everyone with the changes, an attempt of compromise would still be much better than catering to just one type of the player base IMO. I don't believe that it is impossible to make this game's combat something that will not scare away the new player and something that will feel like an improvement for the older player at the same time, don't know how exactly they can do it, but I'm not supposed to know that, I can just tell what I like and what I don't like, just like you.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Voroschuk

[Savej]

...

On the other hand, ESO proves that "re-thinking long-standing design choices" (that originally amounted to "let's copy the way WoW does it") also has an UP side. Maybe you can find some people who "miss the original ESO", but you can barely hear them over the clamor of newbies who weren't even around back then.

 

SWTOR isn't breaking its "Wow clone" heritage by reducing its key count, it is following in the steps of one of Wow's worst expansions. You don't make a rusty tab targetted "Wow clone" into "not a rusty tab targeted Wow clone" by sawing off the top of a buick and painting a Ferrari logo on the back of it.

 

Divekick is a parody of a fighting game. If you're trying to make swtor a parody of an MMO you're well on your way.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Look another one

 

More hyperbole. “Overly bloated” specific abilities. Just shows you don’t really play the game much or play harder content. If you want a two button fighting game there are plenty out there. Stop trying to justify BioWare ruining this game. Are you a BioWare PR person?

 

I'm not thrilled with the way Bioware is going about ability pruning either, but maybe lay off the 'you must be working for bioware' when a player thinks there are too many abilities.

 

It's a valid opinion, and everyone has different tolerances for numbers of abilities. I mostly love them, but still think the sheer number of buffs you have to click in addition to your basic damage abiltiies for high-end sorc/sniper gameplay feels ridiculous.

 

...

I also don't play sorc/sniper for anything but basic, casual stuff.

 

I main assassins/operatives and none of their specs are what I would call ability-heavy. I get away with 12 to 16 keybinds and point 'n' click for the seldom used abilities (but still important! bioware please don't remove abilities just because they are seldom used) like flash-bang and lacerate.

[Dyne-]

It's true that I picked a rather old post to argue with, in order to make a point I already had in mind. I will completely concede you were right about that part. But I didn't pick that old post "at random", I made a very sincere and honest attempt to look for a legitimate example of the exact attitude I was in the mood to argue with: and even looking at your post a second time, I fail to see how I misunderstood it.

 

This is what you said: "The rotation for Fury is 12-13 inputs max. You can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on the side, literally bind your abilities 1-12 and press the buttons in sequential order. I fail to see how that's too difficult for a person who's able bodied and of sound mind."

 

It still seems to me like you actually said exactly what I was in the mood to argue with, especially when I take it "at face value". And if you don't like your words being taken at face value, what other value should I take it for? Is it such a terrible thing, that I took you to mean what you actually said?

 

If you DIDN'T mean to say that learning fury is easy because it can literally be simplified into pressing a sequence of buttons in a pre-determined order, maybe you shouldn't have said it is in almost those exact words. But if you now want to clarify that you actually meant something entirely different, by all means please explain it now. And please bear with my apparently crippling disability, that I only understand what you SAY.

 

Your response about being a BioWare employee is absolutely hilarious lol. 10/10. Anyway, on to it then.

 

The OP’s initial statement was that he felt as though his eyes are constantly hunting all over his quickbars to search for the next ability that has proc’d. He does not know the rotation and has not done the work to commit it to memory. Due to this feeling, he believes that the solution to this problem is ability pruning. Albeit ability pruning that does not take away from the utility and class identity.

 

I explained to him that a lack of practice could be why he’s feeling overwhelmed. I also asserted that his inability to perform the way he would like does not constitute grounds for the wholesale destruction of classes that have grown to become what they are over the course of 10 years. I understand that he did not advocate burning the system down, however what BioWare presented as a Jedi Guardian on the PTS was exactly that.

 

Another poster disagreed, and that’s where you cherrypicked my comment. You omitted everything before that statement that would have helped you understand the conversation and by extension my own viewpoint. Learning the rotation simply allows you to focus on other aspects of this game. Until you as a player do this, you may feel as though the game is providing you with too much information too quickly.

 

Ability pruning will not change this fact, but it will remove nuance and complexity from the game.

 

I’ve included links to my previous posts so you can come to understand my thought process:

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956511#post9956511

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956503#post9956503

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956623#post9956623

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9961863#post9961863

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9732384#post9732384

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9730030#post9730030

 

I don't expect you to read them as you didn't bother to read page 1 of this thread, so I've summarized my opinion on the matter.

 

When I speak of making the game competitive (you’ll have to read my posts for clarity), I’m speaking of the nuance that makes player interaction with other players, and in turn the game; unique. The things that separate the good from the great. The knowledge that allows you to clear a NiM raid or wipe to a one-shot ability. The clutch moves that allow you to survive what would have been a fatal blow and counter with your own. None of these things are tied to a rotation like you’ve implied (but they are tied to utility and abilities that should be base line that BioWare has considered removing). However, mastering a rotation is required to be able to focus on the nuance of the game. This is irrespective of how long or short that rotation may be. If you as a player are worried about your rotation instead of everything else going on around you, you’re wasting time and you’re going to die (in PvP or NiM raids). You need to be able to adapt in the moment and reposition while dealing damage; all the while knowing where to restart your rotation for maximum DPS output. These things come with practice.

 

My opinion on the matter in no way shape or form implies that the entirety of the game can be boiled down and distilled to “know your rotation”. You came up with that on your own, and how you got there from what I said is beyond me.

 

It is the aforementioned that makes classes like Fury Marauder and Vengeance Juggernaut easy to learn but hard to master. You’re not an idiot, so I imagine you know all of this yourself already.

 

It’s fine to take what I’ve said at face value. I’ll always stand by my assertions. However, it offends me when you create your own argument, draw your own conclusion, and then try to pass it off as my own because you were too lazy to read page 1 of this thread.

 

If BioWare wants to get rid of the requirement to know or comprehend what I've just said in order to make the game more accessible to new players they'll probably have to change the game engine and input style. Both of which are better than burning the game to the ground and hoping players will just accept it.

[zorngodofall]

Another game I play is Elder Scrolls Online, where you have two swappable "power trays" with six powers per tray (five "normal" powers, plus one "ultimate" power.) Thus while you're in combat you only have six power buttons plus a swap key to keep track of, to access twelve slotted powers. I wouldn't wildly overstate how amazing I am at that game, but I didn't struggle to learn what "all the buttons" do.

 

The class I'm closest to being half-decent with in SWTOR is Sith Sorcerer. I used to mostly just spam "force storm" over and over, but then I noticed it procced instant casts of "lightning bolt" and "chain lightning", and I took advantage of it. The list of buttons I found worth pressing expanded, and by now I'm thinking of actual strategies, like: if I've procced an instant lightning bolt, but chain lightning is ready to fire, I'll start the chain lighting first even if it isn't an instant cast, because once chain lightning is on cooldown the instant lightning bolt might refresh it, giving me two chain lightnings for the price of one.

 

I'm sure that's all very basic strategy by tryhard standards, but the point is that I started out by mashing a few buttons, and noticing the synergies when they happen. It's hard for me to notice the synergies that never happen, from buttons I never press because there are just too many of them.

 

That's how I can "learn to play", and still have fun. And if it isn't fun, don't count on me getting deeply invested in "doing it right", because I play games to have FUN.

 

Go read a single guide or read your skill tree and gain the requisite knowledge and at least try to figure the thing out before saying, 'too many buttons'. Read the thing. Use brain.

 

You claim to be the type of person who wants less buttons because you dont know the thing but its very clear from reading is the problem was not in fact that the game had too many buttons but that you couldnt do the bare minimum to learn your class.

 

Would reducing the amount of abilities even have helped? It's not the core of the problem so i dont think so.

 

This is 100% why i say bioware lowering the bar will never solve the problem and that regardless of how low the bar goes, people will still ask for it to be lower. Because the root cause is at the players end of things, not biowares and at most the thing they propose we all must suffer through would not fix the problem but play the margins on those who are almost there but still cant be bothered to read a guide.

Edited August 3, 2021 by zorngodofall

[Kass]

Some of this empty arguing makes me wonder if the days of the true MMORPG, similar to the fate of Sandbox Games, are becoming relegated to a niche in the gaming industry because players don't want to learn. That complexity is too hard, and the MMOG space is being so watered down as to force companies to either lobotomize their games to win the affection of younger customers, or risk being relegated to irrelevance with only the most loyal of fans sticking with the game?

 

Its a very sad state of affairs that there is an expectation for Level 75, soon to be Level 80, characters are supposed to function without the very Melee/Ranged, Active, and Passive abilities that the combat system is built around because "too many buttons".

 

Maybe I'm being overly dramatic, but some of these /wordsalad posts that claim this is a good thing leave me thinking this might be true.

 

#insearchof7800707

Edited August 3, 2021 by Kass

[Brainbottle]

Go read a single guide or read your skill tree and gain the requisite knowledge and at least try to figure the thing out before saying, 'too many buttons'. Read the thing. Use brain.

 

Who are you, my boss? If you are offering to PAY me to "apply my brain" to some tedious chore I wouldn't enjoy, quote me some hourly rates and I'll think about it. Otherwise, I really don't care how indignant you are that I'm not doing my HOMEWORK for a game about space wizards with laser swords.

[TrixxieTriss]

Who are you, my boss? If you are offering to PAY me to "apply my brain" to some tedious chore I wouldn't enjoy, quote me some hourly rates and I'll think about it. Otherwise, I really don't care how indignant you are that I'm not doing my HOMEWORK for a game about space wizards with laser swords.

 

Then play something else that doesn’t require any effort. Many of us enjoy the complexity this game has over simplified face rolling with a console controller.

If this was a new game or one still in development without a dedicated player base, your arguments might have merit. But it’s a 10 year game that has a current player base that enjoys much of the stuff you hate. So why should we all have to give up our game for you because you can’t be bothered to do some work to learn.

The entitlement and hubris that the current players should concede to your wishes is astonishing.

[DeannaVoyager]

Who are you, my boss? If you are offering to PAY me to "apply my brain" to some tedious chore I wouldn't enjoy, quote me some hourly rates and I'll think about it. Otherwise, I really don't care how indignant you are that I'm not doing my HOMEWORK for a game about space wizards with laser swords.

 

And this is why pugging flashpoints has become a nightmare. People can't be bothered to learn to play, yet they still want to do group content and expect others to carry. If the group wipes, it's not their fault. If they are given advice, no matter how friendly, they will bite your head off and try to vote kick.

 

As Trixxie said in previous post, maybe this isn't the game for you, at least not if you want to do group content. And you can already do solo content with just two buttons: send companion to attack mobs, right click to pick loot. There is no reason to wreck the whole game for people who can't be bothered to learn how to play.

 

If you play a normal board game, and you roll 3 with a dice, it means you get to move exactly three steps, no more, no less. If you want to play with other people, you need to learn how to play and follow the rules of the game, or they won't play with you anymore. Videogames are no different. There are guides where you can read how to play, and you will need to learn if you want to group up. If you are not interested in learning, you should stick to solo instead of ruining it from everyone else.