In favor of ability pruning

[FumblesPhD]

Then if you are not playing those niches, get rid of the abilities by yourself...

 

You seem to not grasp the larger picture here. With certain outliers removed and a systemic uniformity of gameplay in place we have the potential to gain the framework for better balancing across the board. This will lead to better gameplay, revivification of content, arguably a larger playerbase in endgame 'progression' ops, more players able to enjoy PvP and feel like the choices they are making in their loadout are actually defining their specific character, etc.

 

By leaving these niche outliers for the player to 'get rid of by themselves' there is an allowance for the balance to be tipped by those who choose to use or not use those options that are available to all but may not be utilized by many.

 

Change is not always bad. What you are demonstrating is fear of change and a seeming unwillingness to explore the space presented to you. I encourage you to open up to the possibilities and chew on them and the implications for a while.

[LeoAugustina]

Maybe its your first MMO, but balancing is a mirage. It wont ever happen. Companies with much more budget and devs failed at it.

So yes I rather like more possibilities for sure than an hypothetical balance (spolier: it wont ever happen)

Basically we could discuss about it for ages.

Edited July 14, 2021 by LeoAugustina

[FumblesPhD]

Maybe its your first MMO

It is not my first, and since we are making assumptions - it may even be safe to say that I've been playing MMOs since before you were born based on the way you act.

[LeoAugustina]

So how could you think this is going to be a revolution with more balance and costumers based on? Edited July 14, 2021 by LeoAugustina

[Nee-Elder]

With certain outliers removed and a systemic uniformity of gameplay in place we have the potential to gain the framework for better balancing across the board.

 

Sorry Fumbles, but you sound just like SOE did when the NGE was being "pitched" to SWG playerbase (during that awesome 2 week period of umm "testing" ) .

 

Also, is "balance" really possible? I mean, really? The cream always rises to the top, no? Regardless of 2 skills, 20 skills, 200 skills, etc. ... elite players will find a way to git-gudder faster & better than the casuals.

 

And then certain types of casuals will complain (again) and then what will the excuse be?

 

It never ends lol that's the curse---and beauty---of MMOs i suppose.

 

This will lead to better gameplay, revivification of content, arguably a larger playerbase in endgame 'progression' ops, more players able to enjoy PvP

 

How do you know that though? You're just assuming & speculating, are you not?

 

Heck, not even BioWare knows for sure until they see all the 'metrics' X months after 7.0 goes live and by then it could be too late (2022 ? ) . Instead of trying to re-invent the combat-wheel all the time, why can't MMO devs just make subtle tweaks and focus more on building content on top of that 10-year established 'wheelbase' ?

 

and feel like the choices they are making in their loadout are actually defining their specific character, etc.

 

Isn't our story consequences and personal customizations supposed to be doing that?

 

By leaving these niche outliers for the player to 'get rid of by themselves' there is an allowance for the balance to be tipped by those who choose to use or not use those options that are available to all but may not be utilized by many.

 

Gosh that very well worded sentence reminds me so much of what's sorta happening in RL these days, but i digress....

 

Change is not always bad.

 

 

Change is not always good either.

 

Of course, we don't even know what this change truly is yet. Over/under on when next BioWare PTS dev post happens? ( i'm betting this FRIDAY )

Edited July 14, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[DsevenO]

Since we're currently testing the Jedi Guardian, let's talk about the insane number of abilities a vigilance guardian has to memorize in order to perform the pve rotation: SIX. Is that really beyond your ability to remember? The fact that there are those among us that can remember our own telephone numbers and walk and chew gum at the same time doesn't mean we should be catering to the lowest common denominator.

 

When we get into pvp, that's where things change. Skill, memory, and dynamic situational awareness come into play, and the number goes well beyond six, and it should. Taunt, challenging call, freezing force, saber throw, force stasis, force kick, force push, awe, enure, saber reflect, saber ward, focused defense, guardian leap, and blade blitz are all used constantly. They aren't just useless buttons taking up space on your hotbars. Without them, we're a joke in pvp. We're a joke with them in ranked pvp. If you want to gut every class in the game so that none of those skills and dcds are needed, have at it. What you'll have left is nice simple little mobile game that my 5 year old nephew will be bored of in 15 minutes.

Edited July 14, 2021 by DsevenO

[FumblesPhD]

Maybe its your first MMO, but balancing is a mirage. It wont ever happen. Companies with much more budget and devs failed at it.

So yes I rather like more possibilities for sure than an hypothetical balance (spolier: it wont ever happen)

Basically we could discuss about it for ages.

 

You seem to not grasp the larger picture here. With certain outliers removed and a systemic uniformity of gameplay in place we have the potential to gain the framework for better balancing across the board.

I never said perfect balance was attainable or even the goal. Better balance? Certainly. None of this is hypothetical as you claimed. I think you misunderstand the concept of balance altogether perhaps. It is not my goal to educate you here on that topic.

 

So how could you think this is going to be a revolution with more balance and costumers based on?

 

I never said revolution, but sure - let us go with that. Viva La Revolution

 

This will lead to better gameplay, revivification of content, arguably a larger playerbase in endgame 'progression' ops, more players able to enjoy PvP and feel like the choices they are making in their loadout are actually defining their specific character, etc.

As I've mentioned, this opens up the possibility for revivification of old content (which the devs have hinted at in the livestream), new level scaling, new graphics in older areas, etc.

An active playerbase is a healthy playerbase. There will be plenty of content across a great breadth and depth to pursue.

Content creators are going to flock to the 7.0 guide creation rush, so I expect an online presence and social media presence to grow.

Disney is really pumping out star wars content right now. Even the average person who has never considered playing an 'MMORPG' will look at this 'shiny new online star wars game' and consider trying it out.

The more accessible the game is, the better chance it has at retaining new players and continuing to grow, especially as the only option for an online star wars experience right now. LucasArts sees this. EA no longer holds exclusive rights to star wars games (this is recent). BioWare is investing heavily into this decade old online star wars game that still is profitable and has a ton of potential to go on... but all of this is just theory.

 

What I am interested in is why in every post all you do is decry the changes as a game killer, don't provide any substance to your posts other than harken it back to your gloomy days of WoW, and then sod off somewhere else. I recommend seeing a therapist if you need a regular outlet of attention and emotional outburst. It really does help.

[FumblesPhD]

Sorry Fumbles, but you sound just like SOE did when the NGE was being "pitched" to SWG playerbase (during that awesome 2 week period of umm "testing" ) .

 

Also, is "balance" really possible? I mean, really? The cream always rises to the top, no? Regardless of 2 skills, 20 skills, 200 skills, etc. ... elite players will find a way to git-gudder faster & better than the casuals.

 

And then certain types of casuals will complain (again) and then what will the excuse be?

 

It never ends lol that's the curse---and beauty---of MMOs i suppose.

 

 

 

How do you know that though? You're just assuming & speculating, are you not?

 

Heck, not even BioWare knows for sure until they see all the 'metrics' X months after 7.0 goes live and by then it could be too late (2022 ? ) . Instead of trying to re-invent the combat-wheel all the time, why can't MMO devs just make subtle tweaks and focus more on building content on top of that 10-year established 'wheelbase' ?

 

 

 

Isn't our story consequences and personal customizations supposed to be doing that?

 

 

 

Gosh that very well worded sentence reminds me so much of what's sorta happening in RL these days, but i digress....

 

 

 

Change is not always good either.

 

Of course, we don't even know what this change truly is yet. Over/under on when next BioWare PTS dev post happens? ( i'm betting this FRIDAY )

 

Pure speculation and cautious optimism, as well as just trying to get across to this lump that "just because WoW did" doesn't mean anything.

[Nee-Elder]

Over/under on when next BioWare PTS dev post happens? ( i'm betting this FRIDAY )

 

Annnndddd i was wrong---> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9957133#edit9957133

[CzarnyKolor]

Since we're currently testing the Jedi Guardian, let's talk about the insane number of abilities a vigilance guardian has to memorize in order to perform the pve rotation: SIX. Is that really beyond your ability to remember? The fact that there are those among us that can remember our own telephone numbers and walk and chew gum at the same time doesn't mean we should be catering to the lowest common denominator.

 

So can we take that as admission that Vigilance/Vengeance actually doesn't need thirty active buttons in PvE?

 

Because the argument is not "Yeah, we should cut down the number of available buttons as much as possible", the argument is "Every single button is absolutely necessary, and removing any guts the class". Which is stupid. And untrue.

 

When we get into pvp, that's where things change. Skill, memory, and dynamic situational awareness come into play, and the number goes well beyond six, and it should. Taunt, challenging call, freezing force, saber throw, force stasis, force kick, force push, awe, enure, saber reflect, saber ward, focused defense, guardian leap, and blade blitz are all used constantly. They aren't just useless buttons taking up space on your hotbars. Without them, we're a joke in pvp. We're a joke with them in ranked pvp. If you want to gut every class in the game so that none of those skills and dcds are needed, have at it. What you'll have left is nice simple little mobile game that my 5 year old nephew will be bored of in 15 minutes.

 

PvP could actually use less abilities. As it stands right now, ranked is the most impenetrable part of the game, and getting hit with four stuns in a row and destroyed instantly just isn't particularly fun.

 

And really, if you class (and mine, for that matter), is a joke in PvP with or without them, I don't see a problem. You are already playing suboptimally anyway.

[Nee-Elder]

As it stands right now, ranked is the most impenetrable part of the game,

 

Agreed, but i also think it will probably always be that way. (cuz of how toxic & trolling most ranked PVP'ers tend to be)

 

and getting hit with four stuns in a row and destroyed instantly just isn't particularly fun.

 

 

QFE ^ ...and maybe 1 of these days i'll finally fully comprehend the darn 'resolve bar'

Edited July 14, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[DsevenO]

So can we take that as admission that Vigilance/Vengeance actually doesn't need thirty active buttons in PvE?

 

Don't put them on your bars if you're not using them. Problem solved.

 

Because the argument is not "Yeah, we should cut down the number of available buttons as much as possible", the argument is "Every single button is absolutely necessary, and removing any guts the class". Which is stupid. And untrue.

 

Stupid and untrue according to who? You? I listed the abilities I use in pvp, and it includes every ability currently available. Where's the "untruth" in my statement.

 

PvP could actually use less abilities. As it stands right now, ranked is the most impenetrable part of the game, and getting hit with four stuns in a row and destroyed instantly just isn't particularly fun.

 

And really, if you class (and mine, for that matter), is a joke in PvP with or without them, I don't see a problem. You are already playing suboptimally anyway.

 

So the answer is less defensive viability? Unless they plan to make stuns white bar you instantly (which I'm not against) then we need more defense, not less. 30% stun dr baseline, stun immunity for x seconds after being stunned, slows and roots adding to the resolve bar, lower cd on focused defense (and focused defense as baseline, not a "choice" as it currently is on the ptr) or a passive that reduces FD when attacked as baseline, saber reflect as baseline (again, left as a "choice" on the ptr) with a lower cd, etc., etc.

 

If you're dead set on gimping yourself, you're going to have to do it twice as hard to everyone else to make us viable. Maybe that's what you're hoping for, I don't know.

[Dmnqwk]

When it comes to ability pruning, there are plenty of abilities which actually do need removing or streamlining before important cooldowns are removed.

 

1. Most tanks have 3 AoE abilities. Two of those are superfluous. Taking Sin, for example, having Discharge, Wither and Lacerate... if you removed lacerate and discharge, keeping Wither but on a 6 second cooldown for a high threat + high damage combo, then the aoe effect of lacerate could be baked into Thrash where Thrash deals 75% of it's damage to other mobs within range of the primary target. That's 2 abilities gone already that really don't serve a function.

2. PVP-focused abilities are not that necessary. I mean keeping with sin for the moment we've got Force Slow, Spike, Severing Slash as abilities which serve no real purpose. Adding the slow into a utility for pvp exists and turning Maul into Spike for Darkness would serve the function quite nicely in removing more abilities.

 

Just those 2 things would prune 6 abilities without actually wrecking how the class plays, nor would it ruin anything about the class. I know people might scream it simplifies the rotation but honestly, it'd have little to no impact in your getting as many depredating volts as you can.

 

As with Immortal Jugg.

 

1. Prune Aegis Assault into a passive every 6 seconds of Assault, remove sweeping slash (bake it into vicious slash as a 75% on nearby targets effect) and smash and have crushing blow not require the setup from aegis assault, remove force choke, retaliation (could be an automatic effect so easily), chilling scream (could be a utility if needed) and bake endure into saber reflect. This, again, would trim 7 abilities from a class without affecting the playstyle).

 

I know a lot of people would still hate the changes, but if it's possible to simply remove the bloat and leave only what is necessary then I think the ultimate goal should be reduce everybody down to abilities that actually improve life, not reduce it. (i mean, I looked at the merc and they have about 5 abilities like fusion missile that basically do a redundant job based on which spec you currently are).

[motomag]

Their choices of abilities they appear to be pruning (for guardian) is awkward though.

 

Isn't this the real issue though - it's "their" choice not ours. It wouldn't be as bad if it was like "Hey... here's 30 abilities to choose from and you can pick ANY 20 you want" or something similar, but no.... it's pick only 1 of these 3 abilities/passives that you may have wanted to have all 3 of in your build and kiss goodbye to the others..... and then do the same on the next ability tier, losing abilities/passives you want each step of the way......... and these are abilities you potentially already had together for years !

[CzarnyKolor]

Don't put them on your bars if you're not using them. Problem solved.

 

Well then, how about you just learn to play better so that you don't need all those abilities, and they can be removed?

 

Not very nice, when people are flat out dismissive of you, now, is it?

 

Stupid and untrue according to who? You? I listed the abilities I use in pvp, and it includes every ability currently available. Where's the "untruth" in my statement.

 

It's where you quote the part of my response towards PvE rotation. You know, the one that uses between 15-20 of 30 buttons on Vigilance Guardian.

 

If the ability is only used at the highest level of PvP play in a majorly PvE game, then it is superfluous. And also created an additional barrier to entry for the PvP, and is in no small way responsible for the ranked community being, on average, toxic.

 

So the answer is less defensive viability? Unless they plan to make stuns white bar you instantly (which I'm not against) then we need more defense, not less. 30% stun dr baseline, stun immunity for x seconds after being stunned, slows and roots adding to the resolve bar, lower cd on focused defense (and focused defense as baseline, not a "choice" as it currently is on the ptr) or a passive that reduces FD when attacked as baseline, saber reflect as baseline (again, left as a "choice" on the ptr) with a lower cd, etc., etc.

 

If you're dead set on gimping yourself, you're going to have to do it twice as hard to everyone else to make us viable. Maybe that's what you're hoping for, I don't know.

 

To be honest, I hope that ranked in the current form will be completely and utterly obliterated. Ranked PvP community of TOR is consistently the worst part of the player base, and also the one that contributes the least to the overall state of the game, because it exists in its own closed off world, and basically gives nothing back to the community outside of occasional death threat towards a newbie. My entire experience with PvP in this game has been negative, up and including the fact that one of the members of said community basically killed a guild that I was a part of.

[DsevenO]

Well then, how about you just learn to play better so that you don't need all those abilities, and they can be removed?

 

Not very nice, when people are flat out dismissive of you, now, is it?

 

This is incoherent. I said the guy needed 6 abilities for his rotation. Beyond that, the rest of his abilities could be ignored. Thus, there should be no confusion on his part as to what he has to do to perform his task.

 

It's where you quote the part of my response towards PvE rotation. You know, the one that uses between 15-20 of 30 buttons on Vigilance Guardian.

 

Umm...what? Where did I say a vigilance guardian needs 15-20 buttons to perform in pve. I specifically said that in order perform in pvp I need, and use, all of my abilities as they currently exist.

 

If the ability is only used at the highest level of PvP play in a majorly PvE game, then it is superfluous.

 

Horse sh*t. Performing at the highest levels of pvp and pve require skill and and toolkit to implement that skill. NiM ops and ranked pvp are the only reason many people still play the game.

 

To be honest, I hope that ranked in the current form will be completely and utterly obliterated. Ranked PvP community of TOR is consistently the worst part of the player base, and also the one that contributes the least to the overall state of the game, because it exists in its own closed off world, and basically gives nothing back to the community outside of occasional death threat towards a newbie. My entire experience with PvP in this game has been negative, up and including the fact that one of the members of said community basically killed a guild that I was a part of.

 

Here, we partially agree. Ranked is toxic af. That said, I think productive changes can be made to the game that balance the classes and make it fun for everybody.

[Alssaran]

NiM ops and ranked pvp are the only reason many people still play the game.

 

The amount of people who are playing this game solely due to that is probably fairly miniscule. No, this isn't to insult you and this isn't to discredit you if you like them. I played them too for the longest time. Both Mythic in WoW and NiM here. Even a game like WoW that continuously designs good, difficult raids at 8-10 bosses two to three times a year and relies on competitive content has a community where less than 4% of people will get a Mythic raiding achievement each tier. ~20% do the medium hardest difficulty (Savage/Heroic) and ~3% do the highest (Ultimate/Mythic). That's fairly consistent between the two biggest MMOs ATM.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if about a few hundred people or so play NiM ops, but that probably pales in comparison to everyone who plays this game casually as "space barbie." And even many long-term players don't stay for the operations. Sure, they shouldn't neglect group content for story content and still put out some, but I very much doubt that the remaining NiM Ops or ranked community at this point could be categorized as "many" in comparison to the far larger, casually playing and occasionally dropping in crowd.

 

Raiding is in seriously bad waters ATM. As many players grow older, they have far less patience and time to put up with raiding. The few that do mostly flock to FFXIV and WoW as especially the latter facilitates raiding much better and much more frequently.

 

Not to discredit anyone who likes doing NiM operations, but I'd be seriously surprised if there was any data showing that a large amount of people in this game participated in regular NiM raiding. Espescially when the game is built with ease of access and easy story content in mind. I never heard anyone across any MMO discussion board say: "want good, difficult raids? Go to SWTOR instead of WoW!"

Edited July 15, 2021 by Alssaran

[tharlainmar]

Wow and here I was hoping this whole time that i'd be able to basically swap advanced classes mid combat in PvP and have loadouts saved for that reason, like ESO bar swaps, I could just swap to a whole diff class mid combat and just double all of my hotbars and skills to use, sad to find out about streamlining and having less buttons to press now, though some of these posts are defs correct on there are some skills they can remove and add the passive effects onto another skill etc etc, simple changes i guess, hope it wont all be too bad but oh well... i mean...If you're bad at the game no matter what change they make, you will still be bad at the game

[MOAI]

I know there are tons of abilities, but there are guides out there. There are abilities that I have that I do not use at all.. I get it some people have not unlocked all toolbars, so they have to be careful when setting them up. I like the choices as they are live because I can not test the new system with the old set bonuses. No Force Clarity makes descent of fearless useless. If someone is having problems with too many abilities search some websites for guides and do not keep on doing the same thing over and over again complaining about it.

[TheVoyant]

I'm not mindlessly opposed to all ability pruning, in every case. I just think the implementation they're showing us is really poor.

 

This.

 

If it made sense like merging two similar heals into one more powerful heal. I'd be ok with it.

 

The whole there's too many DCDs or too many buttons I disagree with. I've been playing less then a year, have virtually no mmo experience, and enjoy constant discovery of how to better use the abilities together. I have enjoyable experiences in both PvP and PvE. And while I understand the learning curve is sharp & that the game does not teach players how to be good at the game.... I do genuinely feel the problem is most the time people not learning how to play their class more then anything else.

 

It does suck to hear things like "get good" when its hard to find ways to do this due to PvE solo content being basically "heres your pocket healer now autopilot"

 

But it doesn't make it any less true that yeah skill level and practice is required to excel at it.

 

However, the classes/disc with fewer buttons are the least commonly played/used and they're certainly less fun. See for example Madness Sorc vs. Lightning Sorc. Lightning so fun to play. Madness... has well what 4 abilities that are useful, and not even close to as fun.

 

More Buttons = more strategy.

Less Buttons = button mashing

 

Removing clutter = good

Removing content = bad

[Crystal_Mind]

However, the classes/disc with fewer buttons are the least commonly played/used and they're certainly less fun. See for example Madness Sorc vs. Lightning Sorc. Lightning so fun to play. Madness... has well what 4 abilities that are useful, and not even close to as fun.

 

More Buttons = more strategy.

Less Buttons = button mashing

 

...I have to dispute this specific example. Madness' core rotation is 6-7 active damaging abilities (depending on if you use lightning strike or not), plus offensive & defensive cooldowns. Lightning also uses 7 active damaging abilities (one of which is only applied in the opener). So as far as buttons are concerned, that's a non-argument. Your enjoyment aside, the playstyle difference is that one's a zappy priority system and the other is a fixed rotation.

 

On-topic, I think that some ability pruning/redesign (if done well) wouldn't be a bad thing. Whether it will be executed in the proper manner remains to be seen. I'm not too stressed about it, but I'm also at the point where I play more because I enjoy running content with my guildies than because I'm attached to the game in its current state.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Crystal_Mind
adding an on-topic comment

[sinisterwaffle]

I'm completely in favor of pruning, many abilities feel like they get outgrown or only added to a rotation because well...they're there...so...use them... like i feel obligated to press some buttons and i don't want to press them. Some abilities, like the abundance of long CD abilities being the prime example of buttons i could do without.

 

My general rotation is filled with enough buttons that so many just sit unused to the side anyway because they just aren't fun to press and its not like i need them unless i'm in raid content, which there i'm only pressing them because i'm obligated to for increased dps. As a gunslinger i have an AOE defensive which feels more at home on a healer (wow disc priest barrier).

 

Cool head, illegal mods, burst volley, smugglers luck, bag of tricks, scrambling field, diversion, surrender, and i'm sure one or two more i can't think of... just aren't fun to press and frankly i never do and could do without em.

 

Some of them could easily be worked into the abilities themselves or just removed and i wouldn't miss them

 

I know some are against the pruning, but just letting you know i'm all for it

[Severith]

He doesn't need practice. He needs less buttons.

 

Ability glut is a barrier for entry to this game. This has been known for a while.

 

Sorry if that pisses all over your rotations but you'll adjust.

 

Starting from level 12, a merc could literally remove every ability from their hotbar, never train again, and just use sweeping blasters and a companion to complete the entire vanilla storyline, as well as any heroics.

 

If anything, the ease of the game creates a barrier later on. There's no motivation to get good at the game while leveling, until suddenly you're max level and all those buttons and abilities you didn't bother to read up and understand might actually matter. Double Exp boosts and events make it even worse.

 

Sorry of that pisses them off, but they'll adjust.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Severith

[TrixxieTriss]

The only pruning, “if” any is actually required, should only be on abilities that aren’t part of the main rotation or key DCDs.

 

There are a few useless abilities per class that are hardly ever used by anyone in any content that could be culled. But there aren’t many of those, maybe one per class or maybe none (depending on class).

 

There are abilities that cause imbalance in pvp, but work fine in pve. Ie Guard and taunts for dps in pvp can cause issues and muddy the balancing of classes and matchmaking. These don’t need to be removed, but could be disabled in pvp so that it doesn’t affect pve.

 

There are abilities that cause excessive dysnc in all parts of the game, but really cause issues in all pvp. These are abilities that are related to speed and gap closing. Some of these abilities were always part of some classes, but others have been added over the years and they are contributing to the problem.

 

It’s my opinion that these “excess” mobility related abilities, passives and utilities are the only ones that should be targeted for pruning only “if” they will improve performance and only “if” Bioware has a real reason for pruning and not some devs pet project to dumb down the game to the lowest skill denominator.

 

Sure there are some passives and utilities that could be combined or streamlined, but the majority of class abilities are used by everyone who does harder content like operations, ranked pvp, mm flashpoints and even objective pvp.

 

From what I’ve read, those who have an issue with too much ability bloat don’t play the harder content that requires all the abilities.

 

If you don’t do that content and only play story, the game is so easy you can currently spam 2-3 abilities from lvl 1-75 and never need a DCD. You don’t need to gear properly, you don’t need to know a rotation and you don’t need to raise your companions affection and youre unlikely to even understand half the abilities. Which is ok, just don’t use them or remove them from your task bar if they confuse you.

 

But it’s not ok to expect people who play harder content to lose a bunch of abilities they need to make the game and their characters work properly in the harder content they play.

It’s unreasonable to argue that players should have their classes Nerfed and dumbed down to accommodate players who only play story and don’t even know what half the abilities are used for in harder content because they don’t play said content.

[shalashaskaxxx]

I absolutely support ability pruning. Please it will make game so much better and far more enjoyable. I played WoW arena at 3k+ for years and want to play SWTOR PVP but its very frustrating. You can't really enjow matches and FEEL how it flows with overcompicated stuff.