Jedi Guardian Feedback

[Nee-Elder]

. There are too many abilities for the casual player to be able to feel like they can have a handle on the game.

 

.

 

Even if your over-generalized proclamation/opinion (that isn't backed up by any hard evidence nor metrics data) is true, why would anyone in their right mind want to spend time & money catering MMO combat toward the lowest-common-denominator player in this the *10th Anniversary* year of the game?!

 

p.s. I'm technically a "casual" player since 2011 beta and one of the few things (besides my guilds) that motivates me to still login to SWTOR after 10 years & 12 toons is the very fact that i don't "have a handle" on the entire game (as in, Ranked PVP still is a challenge ... certain NiM ops are still a challenge ... certain new Class specs & rotations i haven't leveled to 75 are still are challenge ... GSF without joystick support is still a challenge ... etc. etc. etc. )

 

You said earlier how "humans hate change" . Agreed, np . But isn't the more accurate statement: Humans hate DRASTIC change ? (see: what NGE did to SWG) And regardless, wouldn't another accurate psychological observation be: Humans, no matter how much they sometimes whine & moan , will ultimately relish real challenge....and CHOICE.

 

Therefore, why wouldn't it make more sense for BioWare to simply make a few subtle tweaks (to combat) and then just add what the 'Legacy of the Sith' article implies (and one might argue, sells) : more mix & match skills freedom of templates & weapons

Edited July 11, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[juanmiranda]

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

 

Please answer the following questions:

• Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.
  
• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  
• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  
• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

 

Thank you!

 

You guys wana turn this game into mobile trash? Knock yourselves out. Corepunk, New World and Lost Ark launch this year. I have no issue finally quitting this game.

[beekayisme]

Speaking from tanking perspective:

 

* Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

It looks like a Jedi Guardian. The signature moves are here which differentiates from other specs.

 

* Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

 

Guardian tank emphasizes on cleaver use on DCD to reduce damage and reflect significant damages. Each of the 3 abilities are used for drastic different situations. Saber Reflect (immunity and reflect damage back is very strong in many situations), Ensure (when healers are not available or is already stressed), Blade Blitz (great mobility and defense boost).

 

To choose between the 3 dumbs down the play style so much. So much so it feels very boring to play. It gives player so little choice.

 

I however do like the passives as it allows the players to choose which one best suit the boss. The tank needs to spec for Corruptor Zero fight and Revan fight differently, giving players more customizations. However the respec may be very tedious to do before each fight.

 

* What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

 

As mentioned before, it has worsened significantly. It reduces player choice and thus you cant answer damage spike / sustained damage / leap out mechanics

 

* How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

Over all not enjoying. I enjoyed more abilities to tune passives but not reduction to abilities.

 

* If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

If the goal is to give players more customization, it should not cut down the abilities then force them to choose which to retain. A better way will be offering different flavors. Example:

 

Saber Reflect reflect 200% damage back whilst providing only 50% damage reduction.

Saber Reflect reflect no damage back whilst providing 5 (7 if take Daunting Presence) seconds of immunity.

Saber Reflect reflect bot melee and ranged attacks.

[Revenaught]

First impressions of the defense lines.

 

B has been pared down too far. I spent way too much time spamming the basic strike waiting for the few meager abilities given to come off cool down. For the supposedly heavier on defense load out I didn’t feel very robust at all. Giving us a lvl one companion that falls over dead after being breathed on doesn’t help that either.

 

A feels more fluid and has far less time waiting for cool downs and as a whole I survived the fights better and felt more robust as a supposed tank. That said the missing abilities still leave gaping holes in the play that might have a detrimental impact in larger more involved combats.

 

On a different topic all together regarding the test server my video is badly jumping and laggy even on low graphics settings while live doesn’t have the same problems even with higher graphics settings.

[Enginskywalks]

I want to start by thanking the devs at Bio Ware for your hard work and being transparent with us on where you are trying to take your game and allowing us to test it. I would also like to hopefully speak for the community here and say that a lot of our responses are so passionate because we care deeply about this game combined with the hype that was generated by the LotS announcement it is natural that people are so deeply invested. However, the PTS build has CLEARLY raised concerns amongst the player base, concerns which I share and I shall try to highlight as I give my opinion on these changes when answering your questions.

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

So at a boilerplate base level? Yes. This is a very rudimentary Jedi Guardian. I've played this game off and on for 10 years, I can recognize and see many of the base Guardian abilities. However, what I notice more is the lack of abilities, especially in the Defense tree. The Guardian in PTS feels like the Guardian in live but cut up into a bunch of tiny pieces. This isn't a good thing. For all of your regular players, especially ones who main the class, it feels like the class has been effectively gutted. Having to CHOSE abilities like saber throw, enure or saber reflect don't make me(or anyone) feel like they are making a hard choice, especially when they have had all of these abilities normally. Instead, it just feels horrible. Every choice I would make in that situation is a choice I would regret because I'm used to having all of these abilities and get frequent use out of all of them. To sum it up, yes it feels like a Guardian, in the most baseline early draft form. Most of the signature abilities are divided up or aren't there at all and for testing at level 75 it feels like I'm playing a Guardian that should be at 30th level. It doesn't feel complete.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

I am an avid sentinel main so I don't know the complete ins and outs of Guardian but I am aware of some things and will try to parrot those who do main Guardian to make sure that their voices are heard. Saber throw being an ability that is chosen takes a lot out of Vigilance rotation and from how it is being described is that it is a chosen ability meaning that if it is competing with another important ability/passive for vigilance it will be a decision that just feels bad more than anything, it leaves a sour taste in the players mouth because they just felt like instead of choosing 1 ability, they were robbed of 2. Enure and Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz being abilities that you can only have 1 of the 3 is also a massive feels bad for tanking. Taking away key defensive cooldowns for tanks will only make tanking feel horrible. For example in the Defense tree, I noticed around 2 key defensive cooldowns. This is not enough for doing end game content at high levels or PVP especially since defensive abilities have fairly long cooldowns using two of your defensive abilities to mitgate a bunch of damage feels good for the few seconds that it lasts but with two defensives that rest of the minute and a half to three minutes just feels awful. For comparison, FFXIV tanks have 7-8 defensive cooldowns per tank that all have varying amounts of mitigation and party utility.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

Low to meh. The class fights through the baseline enemies fine but it feels like a slog and not only that it feels boring once I've done a rotation of the few abilities I have once. There is no flash or flare to the combat anymore.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

To be perfectly honest, the class is boring. It feels like a shell of what it once was and when I'm playing this class the first thing that I was thinking is that "I want to go back to live servers and just play my Juggernaut".

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

What I can say about SWTOR in its current state is that all of the classes are very streamlined and efficient, there is not a lot of "fat" in terms of abilities, it is very lean, I would say 95% of the abilities I have on every class I use and the ones I don't are just more useful in content that I don't play as much. The direction that you are taking these classes is too simple, to the point that it is boring. I could barely play an hour in each discipline, and I struggled to make it far in the first place. The lack of abilities almost got me to drop the PTS outright. If this is the future of the game I ( and many others) will respectfully most likely stop and never come back, not even to play new story content. The way that you have designed your combat styles has made it so that it doesn't provide player choice at all and unhealthily affects your game meta. There will be one set of specified abilities/passives picked for each discipline with no room for choice because you risk losing out on key abilities or mechanics for your style to function properly. This takes away player choice and also encourages a meta in which a singular play style is the only way to play. You have a chance to really add some abilities and to change your combat system to make it feel fresh again, to get players to learn and experiment, and to expand and try out new builds(which is healthy for your in game meta). If player choice is your goal you have unfortunately moved backwards by making classes so streamlines that there is only one set of choices. If you want to add choice and make the classes feel powerful and alive more "fluff" in terms of abilities needs to be added, each class should have combat styles that can played in several effective ways. To do this, you need to build more upon the abilities you have instead of taking them away.

[Magistr_Vladimir]

It feels like a Jedi Guardian, who has forgotten half of everything he has learned over the years. Please do not curtail our abilities, we need more choice and variability in our classes, not limitations.

Rotations will have to be completely reworked and many important skills are irretrievably lost in the new system.

The new character is effective against the simple story content, but in complex activities and in pvp, he is much worse than the existing character.

An attempt to simplify the gameplay and reduce active skills, in my opinion, could be more successful in the case of combining several of the same type of skills into more powerful analogs, or simply through providing more flexibility in choosing active skills from the available set, allowing you to freely choose the ones you need without unnecessary restrictions.

[BlitzCranked]

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

It does not feel like the guardian. it feels clunky and like were waiting for abilities to come off cool down. With the reduction of the total abilities it does simplify things but is far more detrimental in skill expression.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

With abilities missing it will mess up current rotations for the patches of 6 which is understandable that's just a fact. The issue I take is that it limit experimentation and skill expression because in certain situations you wont have abilities that would be normally available. It forces more time in being optimized for a single fight then being overall good enough as a player. It forces players to spend more time changing their loads out then playing the game so their optimized to beat a fight.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

Awful. its fine for trash mobs which most companions can kill with 4 abilities. I believe for the person playing the Guardian the current level will not survive or do well in the more difficult content it loses far too much of the power it had in Onslaught with nothing to compensate for it.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

This entire update is supposed to be about giving players choice and ability to choose the path, combat style, and story they want to play. This is not choice. This is taking away from what is currently there and trying to repackage it as something new. Nothing is being added it just being taken away and making it appear as if choice is being given. I'd recommend If this path is being done (note I personally do not like this direction at all) that the power compensation needs to be appropriate. Otherwise especially with defensives abilities every class is getting nerfed into the ground and most content ie. Flash Points, Uprising, Operations will be unfairly more difficult that it was in the past.

[Malignus]

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

 

Please answer the following questions:

• Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.
  
• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  
• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  
• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

 

Thank you!

 

I'm casual player - playing manily for story and sometimes I do group content with friends. So I'm not expert on game mechanics, but I have fun - now. And I have ver bad feeling about this changes. I tested mainly Vigilance B.

 

From offensive point of view - it is similar to live server, but defense is terrible. I'm missing some favorite and crucial abilities for me like Saber Throw, Force Kick, Resolute, Focused Defense and Awe. If I feel like Jedi Guardian for a few minutes, after first fights I felt like Vigilance Guardian after lobotomy. I wasn't able to defend my companion nor myself. C2 with influence 1 is useless. Enemies always ignore me and attack him so sometimes I don't even notice that he is dead. I tried to protect him by using Guard and Taunt. It helped few times, but only against groups of standard and weak enemies. If there was silver or gold enemy it was without chance. Most of time I taunt all nearby enemies which wasn't be seen in the jungle. Yes, Vigilance B is good against group of standard and weak enemies but against stronger opponents he dies quickly because absence of defensive abilities. Few times I died because I waited for cooldowns to finish one last stupid imperial because - yes - that abilities was missing!

 

In jungle I met some imperials and problems show themselves. Absence of Force Kick was stupid. Yes, I was able disrupt casting by Force Stun (I like this ability), but it has long cooldown (to be without Force Kick) and when I need disrupt another enemy I had to use Force Push which have it's own problems - the pushed enemy is out of range and I must get to him again. In the jungle was hard to guess where all enemies are. So half times I pushed half-dead last casting imperial to the middle of group of another imperials who immediatly attacked me and take me down. Even if he wasn't pushed to another group I had problem get to him, because I have not any cleansing ability so I was immobilized or moving very very slow. Blade Blitz wasn't helping because enemy must be precisely in 20 meter distance - so I always rushed forward and stop behind enemy out of range again. I use Saber Throw for these situations (where I need lure or finish mobs without being attack by another group) and it was terribly missing. I don't use Enure because on live servers I tried it few times and always died after a fight because Enure happens.

 

In the end I wasn't enjoying JG because even if I was able to win the fight in 95% I had to find my droid and revive him or resummon him. In my few chains of victories it become boring and frustrating after some time. These combat mechanics changes scare me and I regret that I didn't finished all Class stories before this changes will come. I don't like how crippled was combat mechanics in Dragon Age: Inquisition and I definetly hate these changes and I'm sure that these changes will be very last before shutdown. From my POV combat mechanics are good and there is no need to change them and definitly not that drasticaly. Focus rather on story and visual improvements.

[MagSul]

I chose to play a Vigilance B Jedi Guardian.

 

 

• Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

No, because I am missing Awe, Force Clarity, Focused Defense, Guardian Leap, Saber Throw, Resolute, Freezing Force, Enure, Challenging Call and Force Kick.

 

I feel like a hollowed out shell of the Jedi Guardian class and that I lack any substance. This build feels utterly illogical. For example, I am a DPS, I've been allowed to retain my Taunt and Guard (the latter of which reduces my DPS output if I'm not mistaken), but have I no ability to interrupt my enemies or lower my threat?

 

I am assuming that my having Force Sweep and Vigilant Thrust at the same time on a shared cooldown is an error.

 

Instead of charging heroically into combat, I honestly felt quite the fool.

 

 

• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

 

Yes, Force Kick, which is essential for numerous conflicts in the game. Without Focused Defense, I feel forced to rely on having my companion set to heal. I can't use Awe to stun nearby enemies to reduce the damage I'm taking. If the last enemy of the pack is out of range, I cannot conveniently use Saber Throw, or a 30m Blade Storm to finish them off.

 

 

• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

 

I felt embarrassed by my own performance playing this class set up. I nearly died to a straight-forward group of enemies while my companion was set to DPS. With the removal of around 11 abilities, I feel far less effective and safe in the open world.

 

 

• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

I am thoroughly - I cannot stress this enough - thoroughly not enjoying this concept. When it was announced on the recent livestream, the impression many players seemed to get was to separate the play style (i.e. abilities and weapons) from the class-specific story. So, I could potentially play the Jedi Knight class story with the weapons, proficiencies and skills of a Jedi Shadow, for example. In no way shape or form did it even occur to me that anything regarding the existing build structures for any class needed to change. Simply open a new window on the UI, select one of the four Force-user classes, select my discipline and get on with it. Why the decision has been made to pool resources into reinventing the wheel is something that I cannot wrap my head around.

 

If this is a glimpse into how the game intends to move forward, I'm not sure I will continue to enjoy it and that breaks my heart. Both my partner and I are in agreement that part of the fun of The Old Republic is learning the array of skills, mixing up combat proficiencies and such. It requires thought and consideration and it's rewarding when you learn it and get it right. Taking away the substance of the class just makes combat feel completely unengaging. I want to provide you with positive constructive feedback, but I cannot find the enthusiasm to continue testing what you've given us so far because it is genuinely not fun to do so.

 

I live in hope that because this is only the first step, many of us have just gotten the complete wrong end of the stick and you don't intend to alienate your devoted player base with a condescending, hollowed-out form of this games existing gameplay. More than one developer enthusiastically told us on the recent livestream that they too enjoy and play the game as we do. That the development team then even has to pose the question to us, "Does what we're doing with this class feel right to you?" screams to me those earlier statements may not be genuine and that's really unpleasant and upsetting, frankly.

[The_Hightower]

There is no need for casual players to use all those abilities and still do well.

 

You dont need cooldowns and rotation to cruise through story.

You dont need optimised rotation and DCD management for VM FPs and SM OPs

You need them for PVP, HM and NIM OPs

 

Thanks, this gets to the heart of it!

 

Please do not go the current crap go live in spite of all the reasons brought forward by the community and without any detailed reaction thereto from your side just to let us know who is the master and who is the servant, although this happened often enough before.

 

The currently planned changes can be pretty much described by the german proverb: "Ihr seid auf dem Holzweg!" The English counterpart "be on the wrong track" does not quite describe it, because a wrong track may lead to a destination although the wrong one, whereas a "Holzweg" by definition does not.

Edited July 11, 2021 by The_Hightower

[TheGrackle]

I have been subbed and played the game almost since launch (I just missed out on Founder as my PC couldn't run it!). Over that time, I've watched a lot of content be stripped from the game: class stats, companion gear and specialisms, progressive end of game currencies, hybrid builds, totally unique class skills, just to name a few. Each time something is taken from the game, a little of its charm disappears with it. Luckily, the dev team work hard to replace it with something new, in the form of more cinematic story and more beautiful locations. But ultimately it's the gameplay that will keep us coming back, not the spectacle.

 

The despecialisation of the classes in the upcoming content feels like a death throe. The greatest magic in group content comes from the ability to step up when times are tough, when the DPS taunts the boss when the tank perishes, or revives the healer. It comes from the tank using every ability at their disposal to succeed down to the wire, and the healer the same. Stripping back the roles to one very simple objective, so simplistic that you're effectively hitting the buttons in order without thought or expertise, where is the spark in that?

 

What we have been given is a shell of our formal selves. A hollow puppet with one purpose and one function. Where do we have to progress to, if we can't explore outside of our role? How can we customise, when we have to choose between essentials? How can we stay challenged, if the slope is only ever going downwards?

 

I want to continue to love and support this game. It's been a part of my life, my career and my friendships for nearly the full decade of its existence. The gaming world is dumbing down, focussed on making the graphs and charts in boardroom meetings go up. Don't become an app. I implore you, devs of SWTOR, to focus on what really sets this game apart from the crowd of MMOs: its lore, its depth and its fascinating complexity. Challenge us, don't pacify us.

[Aeries_Holley]

Having hard time testing, few reasons why, first off takes forever to get set up would recommend having all items bought instant 306 (instead of buying 270's equiping them, then seeing 288, rebuy re-equip repeat till 306) took quite a bit of time just to get a basic gear set so could do any testing, no augments and getting credits to get some basic amplifiers set up is tedious (set a discipline to get 1 million credits, had to talk to the droid well over 100 times to get enough credits), no augments, no stims/medpacks/adrenals (unless there's another vendor hiding somewhere)

 

2nd off the speeder is actually a slower, you walk faster than the speeder on test server, hard to get around planets to actually get to the enemies to test things

 

3rd level 1 companion limited effectiveness, would help if ya had vendor for quick companion compendium, or heck free dark projects and I'll walk over to stronghold section fleet get the compendiums

 

4th not entirely sure what supposed to be testing other than a reduced ability guardian, hard to 1:1 it with so many missing stat points, bad companion, animations seem to be about the same for the limited testing in combat was able to do, effectiveness wise almost got my butt handed to me be the birds under the bridge on Onderron, didn't feel like walking any further on the planet (as speeder is slower than walking currently)

 

Recommendations: Vendor with specific mods/enhancements 306'd so 1 click buy exactly what you want, same w/ armoring hilts w/ various amplifiers pre-installed gold quality, droid that gives ya instant 1 billion credits 1 click, augment vendor (286 purple be fine) purple stims/adrenal/med pack vendor w/ current 75 consumables (so don't have to level a biochem on test server) compendium to level companion up to 50 quickly, fix the speeder going slower than walking. This should be a good starting point to get Jedi Guardian's closer 1:1 what folks have on live servers atm for easier comparison live vs test help them give the feedback you're requesting while not wasting their time with excessive character set up time.

[pyrietboletje]

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

Yes and no. I'm going to be very honest in my feedback here. It feels like an undressed class. It's feeling like playing after you accidentally removed 66% of all your abilities that makes the guardian a jedi guardian.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

It literally feels that 66% of your key abilities which is missing.

To no surprise: It's actually missing!

I am trying to understand WHY we need to choose between or abilities? Is this a part of the streamlining the class? Because straight up making the players choose between abilities and yeeting the rest out of the window isn't exactly streamlining.

In case of streamlining: Do make if needed be new animations, new abilities. Something that very likely cannot be done before 7.0. But that's how you streamline a class with big changes.

If you're going to do it: Do it right. Because right now it feels just erasing abilties. That is not fun at all.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

It feels like playing the game with your hands tied. Many abilities are also still missing on the PTS. is this a bug? (I chose the Vigilance - A. As I'm the most familiar with Vigilance) but it just feels like a very undressed version of the guardian and not fun playing against NPC enemies at all. It's feeling very squishy and not guardian like as we've grown used to over the many years. I did not try PvP or actual raiding with it on the PTS as that was not popping. But it has me worried. Very worried.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

I play a lot on my Jug, making this the mirriored class. And honestly I've not been enjoying it at all. The rotations are gone which made the class fun to play. It's a stripped down version. Most likely it's fun for new players who have no clue what they are doing. But as a vet player it's not fun and will very likely quit playing the guardian class(endgame content) if this gets introduced. Which honestly has me worried a lot for the changes to come to my actual main classes.

 

I also made a video with my initial thoughts and feedback:

[coffeepyromaniac]

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

Personally the Skill Paths and Utility Points should stay what they are for each class discipline. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. Most people thought combat style would literally be the base stuff stayed. If you decided to play as a shadow in Jedi Knight storyline it would be Shadow Skill Tree and utilities but Jedi Knight Storyline. This here is making me thing this is possible to be 10x worse than thought. Please don't mess with the current paths, skills, utilities, and basic abilities of the Discipline that we choose. This setup will not make it easier for new players. It will not balance out disciplines. It will make it more confusing.

this sums it up quite accurately and probably better than I could of the top of my head

[DsevenO]

You guys wana turn this game into mobile trash? Knock yourselves out. Corepunk, New World and Lost Ark launch this year. I have no issue finally quitting this game.

 

Word.

[DsevenO]

If I feel like Jedi Guardian for a few minutes, after first fights I felt like Vigilance Guardian after lobotomy.

 

The most apt analogy I've read so far.

[xThunderstorm]

After 7 years of playing, with most of them subscribed, I finally decided to install the PTS to try something out. The reason for this is that I was kind of shocked when I read how the combat style for the Jedi Guardian, as of this moment, would look like. So I wanted to see for myself why people have such hard opinions about this. I have tried the Vigilance Jedi Guardian (path A), I have no experience with the Focus path (not on the live server nor on the PTS) and a little experience with the Defense path (live server only).

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

Personally, I have to say that I still feel like a Jedi Guardian. In my mind, I'm a Jedi who wants to be up close for melee combat with attacks that are based around using my Lightsaber. This core idea did not change. However, when reading through the Focus Jedi Guardian path, I couldn't help but notice that something iconic (i.e. Saber Throw) is now optional and not a basic ability granted through leveling. I find it highly regrettable that an iconic ability will be optional, furthermore, if we want it, we would have to sacrifice one of the other passives, which could be very useful PvE-/PvP-wise. If I'm correct, then (for the Vigilance path) Energy Barrage will probably be mandatory (taking into consideration the rotation as of 6.0), meaning we would lose Saber Throw entirely (in 7.0). The the core idea of a Jedi Guardian did not change, its identity in my opinion did. When I picture a Jedi Guardian, I think of abilities such as Saber Throw and Force Push, which are present in any Star Wars game. Whether it being The Force Unleashed, Star Wars Battlefront II, SWTOR or any other game. It's like imagining a Sith Warrior without the Force Choke ability or a Sith Sorcerer without the lightning. Please do not remove iconic abilities which give characters their identity.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

As of right now, no. Our core abilities seem to have remained the same and the same goes for our rotation. The rotation is the Vigilance we are used to, which I like. Of course this depends on possibly new tactical items and set bonuses released with 7.0.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

I find this a hard one to answer. If I'm correct, there will be less abilities to use in combat at level 75 (I assume this also applies at level 80). On the one hand I like the idea of simplifying classes. I have never been an advocate for overloaded classes with stealth scans, cleanses, leaps, pulls, teleports, heals, operation buffs and the like. For example: as a Jedi Guardian (Vigilance) I want to have sustained DPS. This did not change, meaning my effectiveness against enemies also did not change. On the other hand there's the fact that I would have less defensive options, but then again, my goal as Vigilance is to deal damage, not to absorb it and have some mobility to keep up with the target or change targets quickly. As a Defense Jedi Guardian I want to absorb damage and keep enemies interested in focussing me. I feel this will be controversial, but in my opinion, Defense does not need mobility. I can see Blade Blitz being removed from Defense, as in my opinion one mobility ability should be enough (that being Force Leap). However, as Vigilance I expect to have both Force Leap and Blade Blitz. If the path remains as it is now, it would mean we would give up a defensive ability for more mobility or the other way around. I think it remains to be seen how this will all work out. I would advise to carefully identify the characteristics of each combat style and fit abilities and passives accordingly. Simplifying disciplines is in my opinion a good goal, but please do not take away the identity of the discipline by having us choose between 3 abilities and/or passives of which at least 2 are very iconic or simply mandatory. This will hurt our character's identity.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

This is too early to tell for me. My first impression is that I will still be enjoying this class as it is right now on the PTS. It will simply be adapting to fewer abilities. I would predict that I would not be enjoying the class if the identity of my Jedi Guardian and its core and iconic abilities are optional or removed.

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

I see people having strong opinions about simplifying disciplines by simply removing abilities. While I do not fully support that opinion (as in yes, I would also see certain abilities for certain classes simply removed), please simplify in a way that does not harm the identity and core of the class. My favourite discipline in 6.0 is Lightning Sorcerer. It is visually very pleasing (thank you, Stormwatch ), but I would rather have less buff abilities to cast before my actual core damaging ablities. Allow me to exaggerate to clarify my point: I absolutely disgust having to cast up to 4 buff abilities before I can even begin casting my first actual core damaging ability. Simply have a maximum of 2 buff abilities (maybe for example Recklessness and Polarity Shift) followed by your opener and rotation. Why do I need to cast a buff to my group members, why do I need to cast an adrenal (which is not even an ability exclusive to sorcerers), why do I need to activate a relic for extra alacrity (in sub-75 content)? Simplify in a way that, for example, I would get the extra alacrity as a passive that triggers every x amount of seconds from your first damaging ability. I am not a game developer, so I don't know how to balance that, if it would be balanced at all. My point is to simplify by sticking to core class abilities and remove extra activations as much as possible.

 

In addition (but this is very in depth and just my opinion), why make Unlimited Power for example a Corruption exclusive group buff? Aren't healers supposed to be the class that heals, shields, empowers, amplifies and such? Outside of having Operations utility, I don't see why Unlimited Power should be on the Lightning and Madness disciplines. In my honest opinion their buff abilities should be focussed on themselves, like Recklessness and Polarity Shift.

 

I hope this is useful feedback for both developers and players alike. Please keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion, it's what I think and I know not everyone has the same idea.

[Admiral_Star]

As a Tank Main I have to say it is a very weird choice to make 3 major DCDs mutually exclusive and I don't really see the point. Is this supposed to make tanking easier? Because if this is the case then is it your plan to let enemies do literally nothing at all? In my opinion you should leave the different combat styles as they are right now, (maybe add a new ability that plays better than Force Clarity) and focus on switching between different combat styles, rather than trying to rework them at the same time. It would be a major waste of time for both you guys and the playerbase if you'd release the expansion in this state, as I know a lot of people (and many may have written it here already) who wouldn't want to play the game in this state.

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

In a way it does, but it feels like a shell of what the class is meant to be. In my opinion you shouldn't be pruning abilities if you don't rework the classes from the bottom up (at a later point in time).

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

 

Apart from the missing DCDs and basic abilities you mean?

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

 

Pushover much?

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

In it's current build, I would delete all my Guardians/Juggernauts.

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

If we could actually see the paths it would be much easier to answer this question. From what I could gather from the forum posts it needs some major work if you are planning on actually having people play this expansion, apart from those 3 diehards who are literally playing until servers are going down.

 

All in all I have to say it's an early build true, but please listen to your community this time and don't release this expansion if it's going to look like that. If you are really set on these different paths than put *new* passives in there to support different playstyles. For example I mean stuff like Choice A is 5% more damage on skill A and Choice B is 5% more damage on skill B. Or for tanks for example Choice A is 30 seconds less CD on Saber Ward or Choice B is 3% Damage Reduction overall (fictive numbers to give an example).

Edited July 11, 2021 by Admiral_Star

[VampRayLa]

The abilities are being cut in half but you're getting the choice of which abilities. There are too many abilities for the casual player to be able to feel like they can have a handle on the game.

 

Given that, they do have to rebalance the abilities based on that and it looks like they haven't done that part yet.

 

But ability glut was a serious thing that many players who were not hardcore operation or PVP were complaining about.

 

Have you ever thought of just not adding/using those abilities you dont want to your bar? I'm not getting to choose, you can choose now. In the future Im getting told pick one of three. You may want one. I want all three.

 

Why make me play like you because you cant play like me?

 

-from: a casual for many many years, that over time grew to appreciate the game more. There were abilities I never used until I started exploring more of the game, but I never was arrogant enough to think, casual I, could tell someone who knew better what to do. Again, why make me play like you because you cant play like me? I'm not even asking you to play like me, but now im being forced to play like you.

Edited July 11, 2021 by VampRayLa

[Ramalina]

All of my testing was done on Defense builds, as I don't do DPS Knights on live and have no basis for comparison.

 

Of the the two Defense variants I found Defense A to "feel" more like a Guardian and did most of my testing with it.

 

This is all very provisional given incomplete implementation of the envisioned changes and the extreme rough draft nature of the current PTS build.

 

Strongly recommend fixing companions and putting in free/1 credit companion gifts so that we can test what tanking with effective heals feels like, or better yet, enable character transfer of existing healing class characters so that people can run PvE content with player tanks and healers. It's a combination really, can't evaluate tanks properly in the absence of healers.

 

Please answer the following questions:

• Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.
  

 

It depends on what you're doing. The basic rotation when beating down trash mobs feels pretty much the same.

 

Tanking does not feel the same. It sort of boggles the mind that anyone would expect it to feel the same. The number of defensive cooldowns per unit time have been cut by 60% or more!!! Granted, not all DCDs are equal in effect, but this is a fairly bad design decision in the Defense options I think. What makes a tank a tank, in terms of game mechanics that the player interacts with in a skill based way and that is unique to tanking is using the right DCD at the right time.

 

A DPS can stand in front of a wall, a healer can instantly aggro all of the newly spawned adds (actually they're arguably better at it than tanks are), anyone can equip a set of armor with mitigation stats on it. Baked in "stance" based defenses benefit the tank, but flat bonuses don't have a player engagement element.

 

Extra DCDs on shorter cooldowns, and possibly extra taunts on shorter cooldowns are the active gameplay elements that players have to "play a tank." Removing half of them from a tank class and expecting core gameplay to remain the same is not rational. It would make more sense to prune either rotational DPS abilities from the tank trees, or prune DPS abilities that almost never get used. Even DPS abilities that do get used are less core to the tanking style of play.

 

If the tree gave me the option to ditch Slash and Strike to get back all the DCDs that would be a very tempting option. Yes, they're spammable basic attacks that fill important functions in terms of resource management, damage output, and threat generation, but not in a really interesting way. If the damage, threat, and focus got baked into other abilities there would really be no reason to have those abilities as a tank. In essence they are fillers used because the interesting and important abilities are either on cooldown, or being reserved to deal with predictable spike damage. For a tank spec keeping filler abilities and ditching DCDs is the exact opposite of what needs to be done if you want to steamline the number of abilities and keep the tank playstyle intact.

 

I would even go so far as to say that if you don't like the design philosophy of the short CD mild effect of Enure, Awe, and Saber Reflect, the thing to do is not cut them, but instead to buff them and increase the CD timer. It's better to have more abilities that make a player think, "Heck, yeah. I'm TANKING baby!!" than to remove active tanking abilities that are in some ways a bit meh in impact. Ah, but what about the danger of allowing tanks to cheese through encounter mechanics with powerful DCDs? Well, given that the whole point of having a tank in the first place is precisely to cheese through encounter mechanics by using powerful well timed DCDs, then congratulate yourselves on making a game well designed.

 

 

• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  

 

For tanks, yes absolutely. The short CD defensive abilities have been cut in half. The long CD "Oh Sh**" abilities are still there, but in terms of a tank's style of, "Doing everything I can to make the healers' lives easier," the workload has been cut by about 60%, and there was already a fair amount of downtime between, "the tank thing I just did," and, "the next tank thing I'm going to need to do." Tanking is supposed to feel different than, "DPS that just happen to stand in front of the boss instead of behind the boss." DCD management is at the core of that difference of playstyle, and when a huge amount of that just up and vanishes, it is very noticeable.

 

• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  

 

Hard to say really in terms of tanking. Is it still more survivable than a DPS spec? Clearly yes. Is it still viable in NiM mode ops without rebalancing all the Ops? Not so sure about that. In a sense it's the "smaller" DCDs that got removed, but they were also the most used DCDs and that adds up over the course of a boss fight. Definitely not as easy to solo Master Mode content as it was. I know that the design assumption is that everyone should swap to a DPS spec for all story mode content so that designers don't get headaches, but the general rule in the past has been that if you want to stay in a tank or healer spec, and are willing to take a lot longer to complete the encounter, you can sort of trade survivability for quick time to kill, and just whittle the NPC(s) down over the long haul. Moderately less effective for this "off label" use. Which is sad as it's a decent way to get in some practice with tanking mechanics in a very low pressure/doesn't annoy other people if you fail type environment.

 

• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  

 

WTB two or three short CD DCDs. Other than that an interrupt and stun break are missing. Don't have any major issues beyond that for PvE. For PvP, it really depends on what the plan for classes overall is. I can see that there might be issues that you want to avoid with tanks being the Grand Illustrious Emperors of DCDs in PvP, but I'd say that the way to address that would be with utility point availability tied to tank role. The interrupt and stun break are sort of needed for PvE as well as for PvP, but after that, if you want to make tanks poor at the stun/snare/root/movement game in PvP as the tradeoff for having more DCDs, that seems reasonable to me. Makes tanks frustrating to play in that case, but PvP balance has never been particularly even in SWTOR, and tanks have always been especially problematic, so if you're just going to balance for DPS and heals in PvP it's a bit sad, but whatever. Tanking is really a PvE role, so better to have it work well there and poorly in PvP than the reverse.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ramalina

[HamadKyron]

I said this in another thread, but to the people who are saying we shouldn't complain because it's too early, they didn't ask us to give feedback on their system 3 months from now, they asked us to give feedback on the current PTS iteration, and currently, the PTS completely guts a lot of peoples' favorite class. That isn't okay, so people are going to complain. Yes, it might get better, but people don't have to ignore what's right in front of them because it MIGHT get better

[Voroschuk]

Tanking is really a PvE role, so better to have it work well there and poorly in PvP than the reverse.

Yea, right, because you said so. 95% of PvE tanking consists of knowing the boss mechanics, wearing mitigation gear and holding threat. Very likely there are much more people who can't give a damn about NiM raids than PvP. Still, that doesn't mean one should be prioritized over the other, and since both PvE and PvP exist in this game, both modes should be working properly.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Voroschuk

[Nikeliss]

This doesn't feel right. Most of core jedi guardian abillities are missing. I can't imagine how is gonna be tanking nim operations with 1 DCD, painfull for healers.

Reduction of abillities is too big and choice feels like illusion because dps spec will take path that leads to more dps.

[TrixxieTriss]

Bioware, it might help the testers provide better feedback if they understand the intent or philosophy behind setting up choices.

 

1. Are you trying to prune the abilities down for a specific reason and what is it?

 

2. Does it have to do with reducing dysnc or performance issues. (If so, wouldn’t pruning movement abilities instead of DCDs be a better solution)

 

3. Is it so all combat spec have the same amount of abilities to make loadouts work properly when switching

 

4. You are planning a console port? (Just a thought).

 

5. Is it to reduce TTK or OP classes.

Edited July 11, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Runemon]

I gotta say this.. I enjoy the testing because I know with concise feedback the devs will make something great. That being said im not done enough for my review but I do have to address those that had to throw down the soap box.

1. testing hasnt been up a week yet and you feel this will be the end product.. you havent done much testing have ya?

2. Those that again haven't tested the guardian yet throw out wild opinions and thinly veiled quit threats.. Quit sez I

and can I have your stuff

3. For those that are testing and are giving honest and concise feedback, Thank you for the time you are taking and thank you for voicing your fears

 

Bottom line is this.. Testing just started lots of code has yet to be implemented they are taking the feedback from players that can be concise and well worded explainations. Those that are throwing around insults and being a general *** about everything without probably even logging into test well go back to 2. nuff said