Jedi Guardian Feedback

[casirabit]

Hi all,

 

We’re going through all the feedback that’s being posted here. Thank you to everyone who has been providing constructive feedback and answering the questions listed in the feedback thread. There is a lot to read through, but we wanted to acknowledge that we are reading your posts.

 

One note that we are seeing is concerns of our overall lack of addressing questions in real time that have popped up. We know that this can be frustrating but at this stage of the feedback process, but we need your raw constructive criticism without us potentially changing or tainting it. This is especially important in the first few days of PTS and what we will be following for future phases of PTS. We also know that there is an ask for us to acknowledge every single thread that was created, but please understand that is not feasible in terms of keeping info consolidated and in one place with how the dev tracker functions. Know that we are reading each thread as they are updated and compiling the feedback and reviewing it with the team.

 

Here are common sentiments that we are seeing:

 

• Concerns regarding the availability of defensive abilities.
  
• PTS Jedi Guardian could be effective in story content but not endgame content.
  
• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  
• Choices being offered as of now don’t feel balanced.
  
• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

We know there are questions surrounding this phase of PTS and will be addressing them in a consolidated dev post later this week after we’ve reviewed the feedback that’s come in since we’ve launched PTS.

 

This thread will be updated with a dev post later this week.

 

Jackie

 

 

Thank you.

 

Regarding the gear:

(1) Either give people direct access to the vendor on Odesson or move the vendor to the fleet or just update the mods in the gear. While I was able to go to Odesson and get the gear not everyone knows or can do that so it would be easier if you just upgraded the sets with 306 gear. I knew about Odesson due to the fact I have played on the PTS most of the time it is open for testing but someone new may not know about it.

Edited July 14, 2021 by casirabit

[Sounders_Fan]

Hi all,

 

We’re going through all the feedback that’s being posted here. Thank you to everyone who has been providing constructive feedback and answering the questions listed in the feedback thread. There is a lot to read through, but we wanted to acknowledge that we are reading your posts.

 

One note that we are seeing is concerns of our overall lack of addressing questions in real time that have popped up. We know that this can be frustrating but at this stage of the feedback process, but we need your raw constructive criticism without us potentially changing or tainting it. This is especially important in the first few days of PTS and what we will be following for future phases of PTS. We also know that there is an ask for us to acknowledge every single thread that was created, but please understand that is not feasible in terms of keeping info consolidated and in one place with how the dev tracker functions. Know that we are reading each thread as they are updated and compiling the feedback and reviewing it with the team.

 

Here are common sentiments that we are seeing:

 

• Concerns regarding the availability of defensive abilities.
  
• PTS Jedi Guardian could be effective in story content but not endgame content.
  
• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  
• Choices being offered as of now don’t feel balanced.
  
• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

We know there are questions surrounding this phase of PTS and will be addressing them in a consolidated dev post later this week after we’ve reviewed the feedback that’s come in since we’ve launched PTS.

 

This thread will be updated with a dev post later this week.

 

Jackie

 

I am primarily a PVPer currently as I do not have the time to dedicate to HM and NiM raiding. not saying that I am great at PVP, but that is the lens that informs my perspective and questions.

 

today PVP has lots of mobility both in terms of escape and gap closing, lots of roots, stuns, mez abilities and the defensive cool downs in their various forms. all those things partner with the role that the players have taken on (DPS, heal, tank).

 

my question: the PTS guardian lacks many of the abilities that help to combat the various abilities of the other classes. what is the overall vison and/or intent of the changes coming? will there be less CC in general? is every class going to see a reduction of Defensive abilities? is every class going to see a reduction of mobility abilities?

[SithJediNinja]

less =/= more

 

variety is the spice of life

 

fat on a steak adds flavour, you dont trim out all of the flavour

 

 

Enjoy my Anti Jedi Guardian Change protest poster captions

[AgustinSarro]

Might aswell keep combat as it is and just buff the iRating at this point..

 

Nowhere near what was originally interpreted/thought of from the livestream.

[Alssaran]

• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

 

Thanks for your response, Jackie. As a little addition to this: please consider to make 306 gear and Commander's Compendium available for a single credit on the PTS in future test phases. Simply put a vendor selling them on the fleet. This would greatly alleviate this point.

 

Thank you for the work you're doing.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Alssaran

[Elssha]

Yes, I share those concerns. Question for devs: Is this being motivated by a Time-To-Kill in pvp thing? As in, you do not intend for dps Guardians to survive so long?

 

I really want to know this, too. There's way better ways to fix that without screwing over pve.

 

 

I think the choice between mobility, DCD, and reflect is too difficult of a choice relative to what I perceive the Guardian is supposed to be.

 

Actually, it's not even that. Blade blitz is a mobility and defensive ability - I would argue far more important as a defensive in PvE than as a movement. So it's just "which two of these DCD's do you want to drop?" choice

[Nepthen]

I for one didn't think that Combat Styles meant a complete rework of every Discipline in the game. My assumptions were that I could pick any Discipline from the force / tech specs and just roll with it, perhaps with some abilities either removed or combined / tweaked at the most. For what it's worth, I only tanked as a Guardian way back in the TFB/SnV days all those years ago so my experience is very limited. But, I can say that the current rework seems like it'll cause more damage than good especially if every Discipline is going through a similar adjustment. These changes aren't facelifts to existing classes, they're amputations.

 

With regards to ability bloat. Yes, it's there and it is very much Discipline oriented. Off the top of my head, Commandos, Sages, and Gunslingers seem to have a ton of abilities. The thing is, some of those are rarely used in the proper "rotations." They're very situational at end game PvE or at the very least, just used while stomping through story content when resource management doesn't matter (you can take the most inefficient resource usage when combat is over in 10-15 seconds).

 

On the surface, I'm not a fan of all of these apparent sweeping changes. Guardian doesn't feel right even for someone like me. When you put Sentinel and Commando on the PTS, I will be able to offer far more feedback. I always felt the utility system gave us enough choices to decide how we wanted to approach our content of choice. Further breaking down that choice by having us choose which abilities to forego seems like a step in the wrong direction.

[myrrhbear]

1. I think the proposed system of changes, forcing players to choose between passives and between which skills to keep or lose is a very significant mistake and should absolutely not be moved forward with. I assume some of the developers fought for having these changes, formed arguments in support of the changes, invested time and effort into developing them, and still would like to see these go forward. That's a lot of momentum to stop, but I hope the cavalcade of negative responses from the community to these proposed changes will be heard and put a stop to this poor choice of direction. I think it can be said with confidence that this will have a negative impact on retaining players in Swtor.

 

While change in general is difficult for people, this is specifically the removal of skills that have been part of our characters for years, and it feels really bad. It removes flexibility from our characters, which overall seems quite bad as well. In place of being able to have more freedom to customise and play our way, this feels like the direct opposite, and removes that freedom forcibly, against our will, and I suspect easily 1 in 10 players will quit Swtor if this set of changes goes to the live servers.

 

2. I don't think this would actually help keep any players who might otherwise have quit Swtor. I assume the newer or more casual player is the target audience for this attempt to reduce number of skills and thereby reduce complexity. As an aside, I personally don't find the game too complex at all, and had never even considered that thought until seeing this proposed change and then wondering about why it's even been suggested. Consider though that regarding newer players, if they begin at level 1 they already have few skills to work with, and it's really quite easy. In fact when you level up naturally from 1 through 75, because you gain your skills incrementally it gives you a chance to become familiar with when to use each skill, so that when you finally have earned all of your skills it's fairly easy to know how to use them because you became familiar with them gradually.

 

The only time the average person will find their skills confusing is if they are a new player and they skip instantly to level 75, bypassing the natural learning process where they would otherwise have easily integrated this learning. A solution for this without being heavy-handed and forcing a lower bar on all the rest of your players, is simply to caution players who are new that if they opt to skip to level 75, they may find it challenging initially to make sense of all of their skills. Leave it up to them to choose. It's not rocket science at all, no matter what those who complain might say.

 

There will ALWAYS been those who complain no matter what, and tailoring things to the lowest common denominator is a bad direction to take. I don't think Swtor needs to be dumbed down at all. You give people too little credit if you think we're not capable of understanding how to use the current spread of skills. I'm sure even children who play Swtor are totally fine with figuring things out. If someone gets bored with the game before reaching level 75, that's not because the game is too difficult to learn. Some people simply will have other priorities in life or other interests.

 

3. Who does this detract from the game for, and who does it alienate? I think it's your core players who subscribe regularly that this will most push away. People who have enjoyed the process of levelling up, and who enjoy their characters, and pay to play this game at end-game are exactly the people who will find this removal of skills seriously off-putting. Many of these people will adapt to the changes if you force the changes through despite the reams of firmly negative feedback, though it will still negatively impact upon trust, but a solid percentage of people will in fact quit Swtor.

 

Having some of our skills taken away like this feels like being robbed and being helpless to do anything about it. It's not just the feeling of helplessness and being stolen from though, but the breach in trust with the game developers that will underlie changes of this sort - a failing in a sort of social contract - and that mistrust earned by a heavy handed move like this will obviously drive a good number of players away. The players who will feel this way are specifically the players who were active in playing their characters after reaching level 75, and who were likely subscribers. They are the ones who liked their character the way it is, and who will most dislike having their skills culled, against their will and without giving them a choice to opt-out.

 

The announcement of Combat Styles had seemed so cool when all we'd been told about what the option of being a Jedi Guardian who opts to walk the dark path and now has the skills and abilities of a Sith Marauder instead. That, as an option players can take or leave, was a very welcome and exciting prospect. The discovery of the intent to strip away a bunch of our skills, or force us to choose between a single target ability, an AoE, or a defensive ability, hampering our flexibility and forcing us to make a very unpleasant choice, is just a massive bummer. It holds zero appeal for me whatsoever, is quite stressful and really very negative, and it's plain to see that the huge majority of those replying feel similarly.

 

But... there are alternatives to forcing these changes on those who don't want them, even while retaining the work of those developers who saw this as a good or necessary change.

 

One simple approach would be to make this OPTIONAL. This could be done in a variety of ways:

 

a) When players level up and gain new skills, if the skill is deemed to not be crucial, a tooltip could pop up telling the player something like "If you're a player who prefers a simpler style of play with fewer skills on your bar, this skill is one you might find you can leave off of your bar."

 

b) Presets could be provided for players to choose from when they hit certain levels which come with a tooltip explaining their options:

b.1) For the advanced player who likes a challenge, and wants their maximum skill flexibility, here's a preset with all skills available. *This option is the most important one for the massive number of players who are upset about having these changes forced on them. Simply allowing an OPTION to retain all of our skills if we want, would correct this whole issue.

b.2) For the newer player, or those who like to keep fewer skills on their bar, here are 3 presets to choose from, which will leave certain abilities off of your bar that are deemed unessential depending on which focus you have for your combat - single target, AoE, or defence.

 

c) Include an option in preferences that can be toggled on or off that puts a coloured border around skills to make it very easy to identify which type of skill it is. So for example: all healing skills have a green border (possibly dark green for single target heals, and light green for AoE heals), all defensive cooldowns have a blue border, all cc skills have a yellow border, all attacks have a red border (possibly dark red for single target and light red for AoE), and all offensive cooldowns have a purple border. Perhaps we'd have boxes in our preferences for each of these categories to turn on the border highlights for only those skill types we want to! This would be quite helpful in fact. (And perhaps players could even choose their own colours for the borders, like how we choose colours for chat. That's not necessary but players might like that.)

 

d) Provide an option in preferences for more or less detail in tooltips, for players who want all the nitty-gritty, and for players who want it kept simpler.

 

The bottom line is that people like to have options, flexibility, free choice, and to be able to customise things and play their way... and very much dislike being forced and dictated to removing freedom of choice, or having things taken away from them against their will. Find a solution that lets people who want to retain all of their skills, and make these presets or hiding of certain skills optional, and then this hugely negative change becomes a positive one that gives players more choice, instead of less.

[nkarapinha]

Hi all,

 

We’re going through all the feedback that’s being posted here. Thank you to everyone who has been providing constructive feedback and answering the questions listed in the feedback thread. There is a lot to read through, but we wanted to acknowledge that we are reading your posts.

 

One note that we are seeing is concerns of our overall lack of addressing questions in real time that have popped up. We know that this can be frustrating but at this stage of the feedback process, but we need your raw constructive criticism without us potentially changing or tainting it. This is especially important in the first few days of PTS and what we will be following for future phases of PTS. We also know that there is an ask for us to acknowledge every single thread that was created, but please understand that is not feasible in terms of keeping info consolidated and in one place with how the dev tracker functions. Know that we are reading each thread as they are updated and compiling the feedback and reviewing it with the team.

 

Here are common sentiments that we are seeing:

 

• Concerns regarding the availability of defensive abilities.
  
• PTS Jedi Guardian could be effective in story content but not endgame content.
  
• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  
• Choices being offered as of now don’t feel balanced.
  
• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

We know there are questions surrounding this phase of PTS and will be addressing them in a consolidated dev post later this week after we’ve reviewed the feedback that’s come in since we’ve launched PTS.

 

This thread will be updated with a dev post later this week.

 

Jackie

 

So nice seeing that having PTS phases before release does really work.

You release something on PTS, we like/don't like something.

And you change it based on our feedback.

This is what PTS is for.

Thank you Jackie.

 

Hope the next update on PTS fells better, and that everyone can explain why it does/doesn't more clearly.

[-_Richtus_-]

So since we got almost no information(!) and a really buggy and unfinished test setup lets keep it short:

 

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

No many class defining skills and to many def cds are missing.

• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  

Yes many class defining skills are missing (Saber Throw, Freezing Force, Aoe Taunt, Intercede, Focused Defense).

Why is Awe a choice now?!

• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  

It does not feel lika a Jedi Guardian at all. It feels lika a Jedi Knight lvl 40. Unrefined and makes no fun at all.

The effectiveness is much less than on live and it feels wrong and cluncky.

• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  

I love the Juggernaut theme on live. I miss it on PTS. I am not enjoying this shell of a class.

• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

There is to many that is missing, or no information is given to list it all here. Maybe when more details are patched. Some of the passive skills are not working or missing.

Just one thing, the DD Jugg feels weak and not fun.

 

• Concerns regarding the availability of defensive abilities.
  
• PTS Jedi Guardian could be effective in story content but not endgame content.
  
• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  
• Choices being offered as of now don’t feel balanced.
  
• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

We know there are questions surrounding this phase of PTS and will be addressing them in a consolidated dev post later this week after we’ve reviewed the feedback that’s come in since we’ve launched PTS.

 

This thread will be updated with a dev post later this week.

 

Jackie

 

Well, the DPS Juggernaut needs its defenses. And I hope it's a bug that some specs don't have ED anymore, or is the removal deliberate because the last two expansions they 'forgot' to adjust it to the new lvl cap .

 

In Ranked you run around as a dps jugg with your poor def CDs and you want to reduce them even more?

Some of these decisions are not understandable without further information and show once again quite clear how lovelessly the Jugg is treated each expansion.

 

Why do I have to choose EP/Enure or reflect or blade blitz when my spec requires it, since it already buffs that skill (Tank boosts it to 20sec or Vengeance gives me a 15% dmg reduction)?

Is this new system the replacement for utilities? If so, why keep useless utilities like Preperation?

Where are the other utilities like Debilitation, Jedi Warden, Persistent Chill or Reckoning?

Where is our AOE dmg reduction when you remove Aoe-Taunt? All other classes have passive dmg reduction.

Where are my active abilities that help identify my class. i.e. Saber Throw, Freezing Force, Aoe Taunt, Intercede, Focused Defense? Why is Awe a choice now?!

If you remove all these things that make this class stand out from others, I'm afraid what will happen to other classes. ?

 

I don't understand the thought process behind removing deff cds from a dps jugg that already has a bad place in pvp ((solo)ranked).

Some of these changes really make you wonder if you even know your endgame.

I mean, I know it's a PTS and there will be many changes and you wanted to get rid of some def cds, but with almost no useful structured information from you it feels like an aimless approach and the feedback could be more precise if we knew the big picture.

 

• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  

And Enure!

Yeah it should not be a choice and yes the class is about survivability which is missing for dd Juggs since a long time.

--> pvp, solo ranked

Edited July 15, 2021 by -_Richtus_-

[phalczen]

JackieKo's post alerting us to the added descriptions also confirms more utilities baked into passives. For example. Defense A, which I tested, has Critical Defense: "Critically hitting with an attack reduces the cooldown of your Combat Focus by 1 second. Combat Focus purges incapacitating and movement impairing effects." This incorporates the previous tier 2 Focused Freedom utility into the new passive, but also helps to counter the loss of Blade Blitz which we can't get in EITHER Defense path currently on test. Admittedly, Blade Blitz wasn't just for the movement effects but also for its damage reduction, and this passive only addresses part of that. The problem is that it almost requires a tank to carry some Critical for this passive to be effective. Having to stack critical chance, to get back a helpful utility, to only partly make up for the loss of Blade Blitz isn't an impactful, meaningful choice. It's a bad design decision. Edited July 15, 2021 by phalczen

[tranzmatt]

The way this ability pruning/selection is sounding, I am now fully expecting a "console" announcement of SWTOR. Because you have to basically dumb down the game to make it work on an Xbox/PS controller and will likely mean I go from having learning rotations and skill selection to button mashing. (If I really wanted that kind of MMO, I'd play ESO, so maybe you're just playing follow the leader.)

 

Either way, I hate it and I'm not alone. People here don't want a dumbed down game. They don't want a button mashy MMO or ESO or Guild Wars 2. They want new content, major expansions, new ops that aren't re-treads of Czerka 198, and if you think console CoD or Gears of War players are going switch, you're delusional.

 

Stop playing follow the leader. Stop looking at another MMO and go "oh, hey, let's do what they're doing" and doing it badly.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I dearly hope I'm wrong because I love SWTOR and wouldn't have played it since 2012 thru thick and thin if I didn't.

 

The people who have stuck with you for 10 years deserve better than this.

Edited July 15, 2021 by tranzmatt
typo

[DsevenO]

In the interest of self-flagellation, I tried loadout B of the vigilance guardian. What a pointless exercise. I still get zero dcds, but this time I get blade blitz instead of enure. WOW. Two abilities I should never have had to choose between in the first place. If this is truly where you're headed, where essential abilities in the toolkit have to be chosen between, this game is dead.

[watamel]

I tested Defense A

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

Yes. Whenever I play the Jedi Guardian class, everything seems to flow well, and now is no exception.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

Not really. I noticed a few missing abilities, but nothing that missed during combat personally.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

Pretty good. I was able to kill all sorts of mobs fine without dying, despite the companions not contributing much.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

I'm enjoying the class so far, and can't wait to see what adjustments are made in the future.

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

None so far. I think what we have is limited right now, but from what I've read, it'll be choice based at a later date, so I'm looking forward to it.

[ZionHalcyon]

Honestly, I actually quite like the way the passives work with this new system, my issue is the inclusion of abilities as a choice.

If the abilities were baseline (maybe merge fringe abilities like freezing force with something else) and the new system was just about passives to tailor your playstyle, I'd love it.

 

That actually makes no sense. Because that's basically how the system works now. So they'd be putting in all this effort to recreate what they already have.

 

That's why I think the choice of selection between certain abilities is crucial to making this work. What does abilities are however, I think that is up for discussion.

[Mcboyo]

Hi all,

 

We’re going through all the feedback that’s being posted here. Thank you to everyone who has been providing constructive feedback and answering the questions listed in the feedback thread. There is a lot to read through, but we wanted to acknowledge that we are reading your posts.

 

One note that we are seeing is concerns of our overall lack of addressing questions in real time that have popped up. We know that this can be frustrating but at this stage of the feedback process, but we need your raw constructive criticism without us potentially changing or tainting it. This is especially important in the first few days of PTS and what we will be following for future phases of PTS. We also know that there is an ask for us to acknowledge every single thread that was created, but please understand that is not feasible in terms of keeping info consolidated and in one place with how the dev tracker functions. Know that we are reading each thread as they are updated and compiling the feedback and reviewing it with the team.

 

Here are common sentiments that we are seeing:

 

• Concerns regarding the availability of defensive abilities.
  
• PTS Jedi Guardian could be effective in story content but not endgame content.
  
• Saber Throw/Saber Reflect should not be a choice.
  
• The class is about survivability. The PTS Jedi Guardian does not feel like this.
  
• Choices being offered as of now don’t feel balanced.
  
• The gear and companion being offered during this phase of PTS does not equate to the live player experience.
  

We know there are questions surrounding this phase of PTS and will be addressing them in a consolidated dev post later this week after we’ve reviewed the feedback that’s come in since we’ve launched PTS.

 

This thread will be updated with a dev post later this week.

 

Jackie

 

I just wanted to say thank you for responding. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future of this game as a lot of players seem to be unhappy about the changes. Something I suggest is merging abilities and not oversimplify the classes because of new players. I get that it can be demoralising, but perhaps making abilities optional in a way that they can enjoy the class story without having to use many abilities like it is now, which is why I'm a little confused why you guys are going ahead with it unless BioWare knows something we don't. That's why I'm not a fan of this PTS: everything feels rushed!

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mcboyo

[Caelvin_Williams]

I want to be heard before the Dev post later this week. I am currently on vacation with my family and had planned to test the Jedi Guardian on PTS on Sunday when I am back home but I do not need to test it to weigh in on the removal of abilities and/or forcing choice between existing abilities. So I hope you will please consider what I have to say on this issue. I am not new to this game. I found SWTOR and created my subscription account on February 26, 2012 and the first character I created was a Jedi Defense Guardian named Caelvin and I have enjoyed playing on that character ever since. For many years that was my only character and only in the past few years have I leveled 16 other characters to 75. I have been following this thread and other threads on this topic daily while on vacation because SWTOR is important to me.

 

I was lucky in the early years of this game to join the Army of Light guild and for several years we had a good run. I was never the best player in my class but I got to do operations with my guild and I learned from others how to tank better. I also went to websites to learn tips on tanking like the tanking guides on Dulfy.net (currently, if anyone wants to learn about tanking, I highly suggest Sevrahn’s guide on Vulkk.com). I got to enjoy a lot of end game content during those early years but I am also a father and have a full time job and at times, my responsibilities would pull me elsewhere. Then the great server mergers occurred and the majority of my guild transferred from Star Forge to Satele Shan servers. I remained behind. Since that time, I have not run ops except very occasionally during events when open groups form. Currently, I enjoy flashpoints, story and single play, events, conquest objectives and because of Galactic Seasons, I now find myself playing a lot of galactic starfighter and unranked PVP. So I would most certainly be considered a casual player by most people.

 

I love how the Jedi Defense Guardian Tank currently feels on the LIVE server. Others have made it clear that that the Defense Guardian on PTS loses the abilities: Awe, Blade Blitz, Force Kick, Freezing Force, and Resolute and makes you choose between Saber Reflect or Enure. I know how I like to play and I don’t want to lose these abilities.

 

I use these abilities even as a casual player. Could I survive as a casual player without these abilities? Probably BUT their removal takes away the feeling of being a Jedi Guardian. During the early years with my guild, I am the player that would turn my character to face the character I was talking to on comms. My guildmates thought it was hilarious but I enjoyed the immersion into the character. The numerous abilities further allow that immersion; less abilities will take away. And when I run random flashpoints as a tank, I get paired up with players of all levels and abilities. Currently, you allow random flashpoint groups to form without a healer (such as a Tank and 3 DPS). I find myself using all three abilities: Blade Blitz, Enure, and Saber Reflect to survive boss fights when playing with less experienced players. I use blade blitz to start a fight on many occasions. If trash mobs are spread out I use both Blade Blitz and saber throw and force push at times to gather mobs up in one area for the DPS to burn down. The removal of saber throw not only takes away an iconic ability of a Jedi but it limits our effectiveness in crowd control. I also use resolute, awe, and force kick frequently in solo play and flashpoints and will miss these too. I’ll be honest I didn’t really use freezing force a whole lot until I started playing unranked pvp.

 

When I get back from vacation I will create a PTS Jedi Guardian and conduct a true test but since the devs might respond before I get back, I wanted to voice my concern. I hope you are listening. I am asking you to please reconsider this plan to remove abilities. I am a casual player and I do NOT want simplification.

[arunav]

That actually makes no sense. Because that's basically how the system works now. So they'd be putting in all this effort to recreate what they already have.

 

That's why I think the choice of selection between certain abilities is crucial to making this work. What does abilities are however, I think that is up for discussion.

 

Actually, it would make a ton of sense.

 

What people were looking forward to was being able to play different classes' disciplines with their current Force or Tech class, whether in class story, expansion story, or endgame content. That, even with no changes to the current disciplines, would have been a great improvement to the game, and a very welcome one. It would be completely worth the effort.

 

What players aren't looking forward to is giving up abilities that have been in the game for most or all of its 10 year existance. These abilities are an integral part of what define the various classes and advanced class disciplines. Currently, we can only infer what is likely for other classes, based on the PTS Guardian.

 

It's a perfectly fine approach to refresh combat somewhat by making new passive and utility choices more interesting and consequential. Veteran and newer players alike would enjoy this type of player choice and ability to customize combat for their characters.

 

So far, it seems like BW is taking a very different, much riskier, and much more difficult one to get right. What's been presented so far is very discouraging.

 

I've been a SWTOR subscriber since January 2012. I know I'm not likely part of BW's target audience for revenue, but also know longtime players are a consistent, reliable part of it. If sweeping changes to classes alter the core gameplay in SWTOR, 7.0 will likely drive a lot of players like me from the game entirely. I'm still somewhat stunned at what's being considered.

Edited July 15, 2021 by arunav

[Lord_Arawn]

Thanks Jackie, I'll be waiting for feedback from the Devs. I sincerely hope they listen to the community and take into account everything that has been posted here. I wouldn't want this game to end... Edited July 15, 2021 by Lord_Arawn

[Jedi_Mick]

Just some feedback and apologies if its already been said. Thanks for the early look and appreciate its early stages.

 

Doing Vigilance

I guess initial feedback is its hard to know the difference between a and b or what the intention is. (i couldnt find the details on forums that explains what a and b are meant to be - maybe someone can share?). Combat proficiencies seemed to be disabled which i think is intended at this early stages - but that was my first instinct to look for help on what things are doing.

 

First confusion is why things like blade blitz are in one discipline over another.... Not sure if this is an error or your intending to break down the abilities further this way.

[ViShAsh]

Dear SWTOR team,

 

Here is my feedback on your current PTS regarding the Jedi Guardian. I was able to fully test (somewhat) the Jedi Guardian Focus, I am pretty familiar with the class so that works out. There are a few points that I want to make:

 

1. Some abilities/passives seemed to be missing or bugged. Like for certain preset layouts you had selected the blade storm to do AoE damage or the Zealous Leap to do AoE damage. They didn't seem to work, I tried to attack enemies that were pretty stacked up and there was no AoE damage coming out. I tried what you suggested and talked to the PTS droid that was giving out the layouts, still the same thing. As a suggestion, it might be beneficial to have a droid on Onderon so you don't have to port back and forth between Onderon and Fleet.

 

2. I think the chosen layouts are a bit too restricted. I know that this is only the first stage of testing, but I think if you let the players actually go through the selection process, it will make a little bit more sense for some players and they will be able to test out the choosing process. It seems to be that sometimes you have to select between certain defensive cooldowns, for a tank there has to be some kind of balance of defensive cooldowns and the damage taken. If you are planning to do something about the damage taken, or have certain passive that boost survivability for the lack of defensive cooldowns, that might be fine, although for hard content like Veteran Mode Operations or even Master Mode Operations you intentionally use a defensive cooldown to prevent spike damage, which is how tanking should work in general. So that might create some problems with that.

 

3. Did it feel like Jedi Guardian? Yes it certainly did, the overall rotations didn't change a whole lot, but I will say that it felt like there were some holes/gaps due to the lack of the abilities. Like I said in #2, having gone through the actual selection process might be more beneficial to see how it works out.

 

4. Customizing the ability paths can be like a double-edged sword. It provides more options for seasoned players and you might even get rid of useless passives that you never utilize, or it might add up even more flavor to the gameplay. I think for new players or relatively new players this experience might be overwhelming and even confusing, especially if they just start out the game. Now one fix to that of course can be the addition of "recommended" attached to an ability/passive to help new players ease into the game.

 

I think that's all I have, but one last thing: I would really like to see how the combat style works on a deep level as I described above, but also see how switching weapons and subclasses work on one character.

 

Thank you and let us see where it goes.

[LordCamTheGreat]

That actually makes no sense. Because that's basically how the system works now. So they'd be putting in all this effort to recreate what they already have.

 

That's why I think the choice of selection between certain abilities is crucial to making this work. What does abilities are however, I think that is up for discussion.

 

The way the system works now, you don't choose anything within your spec itself. All you choose are utilities. Your spec, Focus for e.g. is a linear progression tree with no choice outside the utilities which are shared between all 3 specs.

 

The new proposed system gives you 3 options to choose from every 5 levels and they are better tailored for each spec. Yes there is overlap, but it makes your choices feel more meaningful than picking the cookie cutter good utilities and that's it.

 

Baking in certain "must have" utilities and creating new meaningful passives is a good thing in my opinion.

I don't think that the abilities are crucial at all to how this works because they feel out of place when compared to the passives that you choose between. If you had to choose between the original saber throw and 2 new saber throw variants, say one that does less damage but hits multiple targets and one that builds no focus but soft stuns (like low slash from deception), I don't think anyone would be complaining.

 

Alternatively if it's too hard to make new ability variants with new animations like that, as I've said in a previous post, I'd much prefer if you got the abilities baseline but the passives at the level you receive those abilities refer to that same ability.

For e.g. with saber throw, you get it default at level 25 and then choose whether it should immobilise, armour sunder or apply a force energy burn (which for Focus would then build extra class energy if you take another passive) or either of the other 2 things I suggested.

In this proposed example you can see how the new passives develop on player choice by providing synergy rather than just - I pick this heroic cus it's good and this master utility cus it's good.

 

There are so so so many ways the abilities can be included in the new system in a way that promotes player choice without removing abilities. If an ability is considered borderline useless, either merge it with another ability or change it! At the end of the day I'd rather have the choice to use or not use an ability than not have it at all.

 

Ok this turned into a bit of a ramble but hopefully I'm making some sense!

[LordCamTheGreat]

It's a perfectly fine approach to refresh combat somewhat by making new passive and utility choices more interesting and consequential. Veteran and newer players alike would enjoy this type of player choice and ability to customize combat for their characters.

 

This exactly! More meaningful choice through passives and utilities (if those still exist, can't see them on PTS).

[Toraak]

This exactly! More meaningful choice through passives and utilities (if those still exist, can't see them on PTS).

 

it looked to me that at least some utilities were turned into passive abilities already. I'll have to take a far more detailed look to see if all of the ones people generally take had this happen or just a few of them.

[LordCamTheGreat]

it looked to me that at least some utilities were turned into passive abilities already. I'll have to take a far more detailed look to see if all of the ones people generally take had this happen or just a few of them.

 

Yeah I noticed the same when I was testing (things like being attacked reducing force charge cooldown, saber reflect going to a 5 second duration baseline etc.) which is why I'm not sure whether utilities will be returning. 3 options every 5 levels and utilities on top might be a bit much to be fair, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.