Jedi Guardian Feedback

[Costello]

So the dumbing down and less versatility and a more difficult end game experience is because Eternity Vault is too easy? Surely the idea should be to add enough new content that 10 year old content isn't something that is so vital to the game that you need to dumb down the character advancement system.

 

Have you tried playing some of the veteran mode flashpoints with 4 dps? Trash can have the first character to engage on half health in a second as everything focuses on them, I can only imagine how much worse it will now be with a reduction in defensive options across the board.

 

As feedback seems to be that the new spec is not fit for end game in any sense of the word yet the changes are that end game is too easy cause we currently have too many cool down. So to make eternity vault less easy you are making changes that requires all content since lets say SOR be altered to make it easier as you are removing all the options added since then.

 

Though it seems the focus will be on PvP in the future, Galactic Seasons required people to PvP if they wanted the points and now a combat system based round PvP so unless people are interested in this play style they wont find much reason to have a horse in this race.

[commanderwar]

Hi everyone,

 

 

 

Thank you for playing PTS and giving us your constructive feedback.

 

Thanks Jakie for the response, IMO I am definitely glad of lowering the amount of abilities. if I have time I will download PTS this weekend to try it out and give feedback. Also very happy after so long we will be getting loadouts, should of happens years ago, but better late then never

Edited July 17, 2021 by commanderwar

[Beyrahl]

 

First, we would like to share our philosophy on reducing the number of defensive cooldowns available.

 

Great, I am all for this but specific classes got this treatment more than Guardian. A lot of it also happened to come in utilities or an ability to become a multi-use or multi-action button.

Red flags moving forward I would recommend looking at

 

 

 

• Grit teeth, Force bound, these things need looked at before really doing things about guardian/juggernaut.
   
   
   
  
• Stim boost revitalizer utility, the DR is nice, but passive healing on top of it as DPS is way strong.
   
   
   
  
• Electrocute -25% utility, Sapped strengths from both saps 50% is a lot, while not always used optimally they're incredibly impactful when used right, seeing them work differently or become less powerful would be nice.
   
   
   
  
• Double stealth tacticals for both marauder/sentinel & assassin/shadow, being able to reset is cool.. I guess but instead of letting them do it more, can we just make them stronger to deal with things instead of constantly resetting?
   
   
   
  
• Reflect for mercenary/commando, Trauma regulators rework? Make it work passively on hit to not promote clicking off, 60% Kolto I feel the ability should be reworked in general, Jetout a 2 stack movement ability longer CD please, this class has so much while sort of lacking in DR area outside of power shield.
   
   
   
  
• 75% AoE tech slow utility for Powertech any 50%+ slow should have some sort of downside to use, Poweryield outclasses every defensive in the game don't forget armor gives flat DR, these two things are part of what makes Powertech a nightmare to deal with without even mentioning the damage.
   
   
   
  
• Stacking damage buffs on top of a super crit like roll ambush with auto crit ability or energy burst with powerlode these abilities are so strong they just go through defensives like its nothing - most specifically 5x rail shot with all of that built-in pen it hits 100% pen, it doesn't feel good to be burst through strong defensives, let alone guard and these things do so.
   
   
   
  
• Chain lightning with elemental convection ups the number of chain lightning going on which is an arching AoE root and slow can we see it moved to thundering blast and a DR for being hit by the same CC type over and over? Lightning stacking is incredibly difficult to deal with, Polarity shift talent with emersion makes it rather hard to stick to the class making it immune for quite some uptime with the new set lowering its CD.
   
   
   
  
• Most passives ripped from trees on 3.0 launch and turned into utilities should go back to being specialization specific like fast pred and stun bubble like a lot of these aren't as good but those are the most impactful of the bunch.
   
   
   
  
• Endure pain rework? Last, of its kind being a double-bladed defensive, look at old undying rage or consuming darkness. This is literally the last of its kind.
   
   
   
  
• Penetrating rounds for sniper/slinger knocking back and slowing then with a tactical to make it also AoE is far too many things in just a single ability, Cover pulse automatically rooting should of never happened it's far too impactful and it's just one button, Diversion I have always disliked this was changed to be AoE if it could either change to flat DR while inside of it or go back to be single target to be more in line with obfuscate that would be great, Roll heal I think is a perfectly acceptable way to combine something.
   
   
   
  
• Two stacks of stun set for operative is simply too much I already have stun on near 24 second cooldown with stim boost up on the class, which is usually when you'd use it anyway.
   
   
   
  
• Brazing bolts does a 70% slow for 3 seconds automatically refreshing each tick making it uncleansable this is absurd and they can use it while moving needs re-tuned or changed completely.

 

I think I covered most there's more though.

Slightly offtopic things I'd love to see get added into the game would be.

 

A phase walk indicator would be nice, if any class is keeping the ability or has the option to take it please, please, please, put a range indicator of how far you are from your phase. If that's impossible, please don't let us reset it by using it out of range make it only resettable by clicking the buff off, thanks!

 

Auto-crit / Super-Crit is something that's been unbalanced since 6.0 launch, most got removed then some got added back with even lower cooldowns than 5.0. These things are one of the reasons the top classes are top classes right now. Either give it to everyone or give it to no one, keep in mind sniper has an ability that does this automatically.

 

Movement is out of control? Fast pred being available for all three specs does make playing versus marauders in general irritating, I do think the class as a whole should not only have predations based on their spec like they used to in 2.0 but also have the option to take more selfish predation that helps them more. This would help one of the many issues making people far too mobile, carnage uptime is definitely easier than it used to be but I don't feel everyone should have that fast pred. Hydraulics are incredible as of 6.0, probably the best utility button in-game if you're playing regs there's no movement compared to complete immunity, and having a 45% speed utility on top of it makes you the ultimate hunter. I never liked this addition in 3.0 and I would like to see it be a trade-off or removed in favor of a better baseline hydraulic.

 

Fix emersion rubberbanding, please. It's so pointless to take emersion when you rubberband back to where you were rooted - when in fact you were not supposed to be rooted. This doesn't happen too often and most players just deal with it and play around it knowing it's going to happen, this makes the game less immersive for me, and dislike playing my sorcerer even more than I liked 2.0 lightning.

 

If we're getting versions of abilities can we get things like phantom stride and holotraverse reverted to off GCD? Most useful for sins of course, but make it a trade-off like no root purge if it's used this way? This killed the 'new' fun for me in deception being able to triple discharge combo people. Assassin has lost a lot of its identity over the years mainly phase walk removal, this ability brought some spice back only to get put on the GCD making it feel a lot less impactful.

 

Lastly, things like accuracy, armor penetration, and tank stats are incredibly boring in PvP. There's a reason why tank stats have never really worked because there's no real punishment for them building damage. Accuracy debuffs that were added in 3.0 to tanks to -5% for 45s are absolutely absurd and nerf a lot of melees across the board by a tank just existing. This should be flat-out removed in general. Accuracy shouldn't be a requirement but sadly it is and missing abilities is the least engaging form of PvP in this game, no one wants to be outplayed by a miss, it's literally so unrewarding. What's the point of trying to get good at something when you can just be lucky? Remove luck and RNG from PvP it doesn't belong. Armor penetration specifically causes issues with arsenal, while it doesn't do a ton across the board it still hits 50-60k railshots through nearly all DCDs in the game if it manages to hit, even on tanks. All of its abilities hit relatively the same because it's nearly always at near 100% armor penetration.. Just why. Can we see this changed and an increase in its damage? I miss 4.0 merc a lot, it felt way better. (Side note, IO supercharged gas dot does not seem to be considered a 'dot' when it comes to things like dot dr. haha)

 

I have tons more feedback but I am ranting, I have played the game since the end of 1.0 and I am very passionate about the games PvP. I have had a lot of spare time to play every class over the years and I have enjoyed everything across the expansions, if I could compare now to then. I feel the gap between "meta" and non "meta" specs right now can't even compete in the same ballpark, it was never like this before and really ruins the diversity imo.

 

 

Over several years and updates, more and more defensive cooldowns and abilities have been added to the game. Often times this was for class balance purposes, to allow some classes to keep up with others in terms of their defensive kit. Additionally, this was done without adjusting things like Operation boss mechanics which were designed around the class kits available at the time: mainly less defensive cooldowns. The sheer quantity of defensive cooldowns in the game today makes things more difficult to balance for both PvE and PvP. It has made some PvE mechanics completely avoidable, and made the time-to-kill metric in PvP grow steadily to the point where we are approaching tedious levels.

 

I understand this completely, assassins getting force speed absorb nerfed due to PvE cheese was absolutely silly. There most definitely needs to be a separation between the two, even if it's only utilities it'd make the game far easier to balance in the long run. Now with the TTK in PvP, this is really only a problem when you face a tank and you're playing something suboptimal or just playing something that's not currently "meta" as only a certain few classes really sit at the top right now. I get that people want to play what they want but this patch has been the least balanced TTK with the most "meta" things can kill through guard, without guard it can nearly instantly delete someone. You don't have to be good, really you only need to be average, geared, and on something good like AP PT. It's not just AP either, no class should be able to just dish this kind of unmitigable damage or have their damage tuned this high. They should all be on a relatively similar playing field, when people use DCDs correctly things like dots and AoE shine more, when people don't use DCDs right burst reigns supreme. It's been like that for a long time but since 6.0 the damage is so high that "using" your DCDs right doesn't even matter if you're on a certain class as you'll just die through it as if you didn't even pop it.

 

In addition to defensive cooldowns, we want to streamline other abilities where it makes sense. For example, instead of dedicating an entirely separate ability and button press to a particular effect, we want to merge or combine them with others in an intuitive way. We can see this in action on the PTS with Freezing Force

 

I like this idea a lot, but do keep in mind this is part of the current problem for certain abilities being far too many things at once.

[Eglantyne]

Hi everyone,

The sheer quantity of defensive cooldowns in the game today makes things more difficult to balance for both PvE and PvP. It has made the time-to-kill metric in PvP grow steadily to the point where we are approaching tedious levels.

 

First of all, is a long TTK really that problematic? Staying in combat is fun. Waiting for a door then running is not.

Secondly, imho (I mainly play PvE, but still enjoy some PvP sometimes) it depends heavily on the matchup. I die in seconds with a Sniper ; but you have a lot more control and damage compared to, e.g., a tank Assassin where you have low damage and control, but could defend a point for a long time with a good DCD management and a healer close by.

 

In 7.0, we want to reduce the quantity of defensive skills overall, across all classes, making for a more balanced and enjoyable experience in both PvE and PvP content, while at the same time making the defensives that remain more impactful and fun.

 

For me, in PVE at least, reducing the quantity of defensive skills makes the experience less enjoyable. Part of what is fun in NiM operations is to choose which DCD to use and when.

Saber ward to reduce physical damage, saber reflect for force damage, focused defense for a lot of small attacks, a hard to time but especially effective Blade Blitz for huge attacks (such as Titan's 6 grenades). Recognizing the pattern and adapting the DCD in time is part of the fun. Having to maintain focus on the strategy, damage cycle, and DCD is part of the fun of NiM. Removing part of that means dumbing it down imo, and removes a lot of the fun of the encounter.

 

Currently, DTPS is high even with a lot of DCDs, how is it planned to balance it? By reducing damage outside of some special parts?

 

 

In PvP, our intent is balanced, more dynamic player encounters that move away from rotating defensive cooldowns and move more towards utilizing a broader set of skills in each class’s kit.

 

I don't really see how removing skills imply using a broader set of skills? I usually use most abilities (DCD as well as attack skills) in PvP anyway.

 

In PvE, our intent is to take into account these changes, and adjust NPC encounters as needed to compensate.

 

As mentionned by other before, imo difficulty right now feels right. Changing the abilities massively increases the risks of breaking such difficulty and/or class balance. Especially when it means balancing all classes for all operations/bosses/modes.

 

Getting a bit more specific, we also intend to give upgraded versions of abilities when being presented as a choice. Here’s one example using Blade Blitz from the current PTS:

• Blade Blitz in the Live game:
  
• 45 second cooldown
  
• Quickly rush forward 20 meters, dealing weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while blitzing. Cannot be used while immobilized or hindered.
  

Blade Blitz on PTS:

• 35 second cooldown
  
• Quickly rush forward 20 meters, dealing weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while blitzing. Can be used while immobilized and purges movement-impairing effects when activated.
  

Instead of spending utility points to upgrade abilities, as in the current system, you will be presented with an already upgraded version of several abilities to choose between leading to more interesting decision making, customization, and greater choice for your kit.

 

I have to admit that I do not really see a difference with the old utility point system? This example of Blade Blitz "upgraded" version looks exactly the same as the one with utility points. Are there more choices than the previous utility system?

 

Freezing Force is removed from Guardians on the PTS, but a modification to Blade Storm via the new ability choice tree upgrades Blade Storm into an AoE that also slows. This offers a similar effect to the old ability, but in a more efficient way.

 

I don't find this a good idea, as the two effects are not things I want to use at the same moment. I might want to just use the ability as a DCD/movement skill. Or I might want to keep the DCD and just slow the ennemies as a tank for my DPS. Fusing them makes us loose the choice of when to use each one, and makes the game less interesting imo by reducing our choices.

 

One of the reasons we wanted to share these class changes with our players so early is because we wanted to get your feedback as we are still in the design phase of several other classes. As stated previously, you are not playing a final product. While very rough around the edges, the earlier we can share impactful changes like this the more we can take into account your feedback as we continue building out the remaining classes and iterating on ones you’re able to try out on the PTS.

 

To conclude, here is last feedback: what a Guardian/Juggernaut should feel like, in my mind, is a brutal warrior that can take heavy damage. It is slower than other classes, cannot use stealth, do not have a consistent way of attacking from a distance, but is able to endure. This is true both for pure tank, but also partly for DPS which can sometimes act as off tanks. Removing the majority of DCD doesn't give this feeling. I'm not sure what is planned for other classes, but imho DCDs are not that frequent in some other classes which have other ways to play (more control, stealth, ...), what is planned for them? Removing those particularities too?

[DsevenO]

All I can say from testing is “I’m depressed” with these changes.

 

My main Alts are Rage Jugg / Focus Guardian and it feels like you’ve gutted the class severely on the defensive abilities and the other missing abilities makes it not feel like a Guardian anymore.

 

If your aim is to dumb down the classes, then all you’ve succeeded is making it unexciting and weak. It’s certainly not fun.

 

I tested both Focus A and B load outs in veteran mode flash points (that I can usually solo on my focus guardian).

Before doing so, I spent time to get my gear to 306 and close to BiS as you can on the pts.

I also used gifts to get my companion up to lvl 20 (which is usually fine for veteran). It wasn’t possible to complete any of the flash points I tried.

I then tried Onderon and while I didn’t die, the specs felt weak and clunky.

 

(Missing 10 abilities on the pts compared to live server). Removing some of these had a negative impact on my enjoyment

 

No resolute - stun break (I really hope that’s a bug)

No Sabre throw (to build up focus or attack ranged targets)

No Awe (AOE stun)

No Guardian leap

No challenging call

No Enure

No combat focus (can’t build focus before a fight)

No freezing force

No force kick

No force clarity

 

Choosing between blade blitz (load A) and Sabre reflect (load B) is just dumb (sorry I have no other way to describe that)

 

If you really want to prune the spec, then look at what Focus could do without, ie guard and taunt. But you’ve given them to us while removing DCDs like Enure and making use choose to have reflect or blade blitz. It make zero sense.

 

There are abilities you could easily prune and not ruin the class as they aren’t as dependent to make the spec work smoothly in combat. Ie get rid of tanking abilities for focus.

If we need tanking, we can switch load outs to the tank spec. It makes less sense to keep tanking abilities on a burst dps. And dps off tanking is what causes issues in pvp.

 

Riposte (not a major part of the rotation)

Slash (is really only a filler)

Cyclone slash (completely worthless ability)

Guard

Taunt

Challenging call

Guardian leap

Force Clarity

Strike (it’s only a filler that is rarely used)

 

The perfect ability build for me would be with the following abilities (in no specific order).

Please keep these below abilities on the focus spec Guardian on the next build so we can test and report. And don’t make us choose between them and passives.

 

Sabre Throw

Force leap

Force exhaustion

Focused burst

Concentrated slice

Blade Barrage

Sundering strike

Blade storm

Dispatch

Zealous leap

Force sweep

Combat focus

Sabre reflect

Sabre ward

Focus defence

Enure

Force kick

Awe

Force stasis

Freezing force

Resolute

Blade blitz

 

I use everyone of these ability’s playing pvp and master mode pve content solo. Without all of those abilities, the play will be clunky and cookie cutter and won’t feel like a focus guardian.

 

I really hope you guys are taking peoples negative feedback as a sign that you’re on the wrong path if you think this is going to keep players in the game.

 

 

 

To be completely honest, I’m a little cranky that you guys thought this is what players wanted.

I’m so deeply disappointed and depressed after testing, that I’ve lost interest in playing the live game until we get some answers to our feedback.

I tried to stay emotionless writing this, but it feels like you’ve taken my favourite puppy out the back to be put down.

 

How about telling us what the actual intent of the pruning is so we can try and get our heads around that first. Then we can offer some feedback on what pruning would actually work vs what you guys guess.

 

Please listen to this. I made a post with similar ability pruning proposals that still left the class intact (vigilance in my case). The only thing I'd keep that you have listed is cyclone slash. Very useful for getting stealthies out in the open. The only thing I would lose from your "ideal" list would be freezing force. I find it of minor utility even in pvp.

 

I would go much further though. I wouldn't just keep most things as they are (with some minor pruning), I think dps guardian/jugg defensives need to be kept as baseline abilities and need to be reworked. 30% baseline stun dr (so we're not fodder in ranked). Stun immunity for 5 seconds after a stun (again, to prevent the current tunneling meta). All dcds usable while stunned as baseline (or at least a a utility). The utility "Battlefield Command" should have its proc reduced to 1s as opposed to 1.5. Roots and slows should contribute to resolve. This is just spitballing, but the overarching theme here is that we need more defense, not less.

[Mcboyo]

Instead of spending utility points to upgrade abilities, as in the current system, you will be presented with an already upgraded version of several abilities to choose between leading to more interesting decision making, customization, and greater choice for your kit.

 

Can somebody explain how removing utilities equals greater choice? Is this about the "choosing between A and B abilities"? Because that's so unnecessary, PVP and endgame players currently have the choice to use whatever they want, it's not like we're forced to have them all on our hotbar. Is there an ability that you never use? Remove it. It's that simple. I would rather have a rework of the utilities and abilities we have on Live at this point.

 

We are currently iterating on different ways of utilizing breaker functionality that doesn’t necessarily require an independent icon on your hotbar

 

Bad idea. Breakers and interrupts are independent for a reason. Players want to have the choice in interrupting/breaking out of specific abilities instead of an RNG system that is unpredictable or merging with rotational abilities. Again, how does this emphasise player choice when it's doing the exact opposite?

 

My opinion on this whole system is if you're going through with it, at least take these points into consideration:

 

• Choosing any two(?) abilities that are available from a list as we level up instead of being forced to choose between two pre-set ones. I believe it will alleviate the issue of having to decide between two important abilities.
  
• Scrap the idea of choosing between passives and abilities because very few people have ever been a fan of that idea. Perhaps make it so players choose separately?
  
• Keep breakers and interrupts independent if you want maximum flexibility.
  
• Don't strip tanks of too many DCDs as they rely on survivability.
  
• Don't fix PVP at the cost of PVE.
  

 

This will give players greater choice than BW limiting our playstyles to how they see fit, not us.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Mcboyo

[TrixxieTriss]

The only thing I'd keep that you have listed is cyclone slash. Very useful for getting stealthies out in the open. The only thing I would lose from your "ideal" list would be freezing force. I find it of minor utility even in pvp.

 

Freezing force also takes them out of stealth, you don’t need cyclonic slash.

It’s also useful in Hutt ball to slow the ball carrier instead of white barring them with a stun.

Also useful in Void Star tunnels to delay the enemy so your lead guys can cap.

And let’s not forget when an operative is behind you. The AOE slow from freezing force is 360” and can give you sometime to get way.

Using Cyclonic slash is a waste of energy resources to find a stealth. If.you are doing that, you are doing it wrong.

Freezing force has so much more utility than cyclonic slash. Which does F all damage for an AOE. It’s a useless ability.

Edited July 17, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[HaoZhao]

Freezing Force is removed from Guardians on the PTS, but a modification to Blade Storm via the new ability choice tree upgrades Blade Storm into an AoE that also slows. This offers a similar effect to the old ability, but in a more efficient way

 

This is actually pretty class breaking in PVP. With all due respect, the developer who fed you this line did not think any of this through at all.

 

The reason why freezing force is good is because it is on demand. It has no cooldown. By tying the guardian's only slow to a move that is used in its rotation, the team is guaranteeing that you won't have that slow when you need it. In PVP, timing is everything.

 

So, for example, for a guardian to catch a sorcerer, you slow them with freezing force which causes them to force speed away, 9 times out of 10. The guardian leaps back in and then reapplies the slow. Without the ability to do this, guardians will just be kited/trolled into impotence.

 

Combine this with all of the other changes such as Awe being taken away unless you give up another really good defensive, and what do we have? Guardians have very little ability to control the battlefield, anymore, which is the only thing they were good at in PVP outside of troll tanking with Grit Teeth.

Edited July 17, 2021 by HaoZhao

[Lord_Arawn]

p.s. Whaddaya say u guys scrap this whole 7.0 'combat revamp' thing and instead add some PVE storyline/questlines for GSF instead? With ohhh i dunno, a new planet/zone 'combo operation' whereby some players battle above in GSF mode and others battle below on the ground? You know, like a super duper 'Malgus vs. Republic' STAR WAR!

 

That's exactly what I wanted for Swtor, one or two planets for an expansion is not enough, even more when in one of them there is a Flashpoint... I miss the time of Knights of the Fallen Empire, this was indeed a great and true expansion. . I always go a long time without playing, not because I find my skills problematic, but because of a lack of content. Unfortunately, winning prizes to get in doesn't keep me in the game, I just go in, do what I have to do for a minute or two, and get out. I really wanted a really great content, that makes me play a lot for many hours...but unfortunately Bioware prefers to focus on removing skills, I really hope my character doesn't get too weak, because I only play PVE and solo, if not I can play that way, with great sadness I'll have to leave...The way is to wait and see how it goes...

Edited July 17, 2021 by Lord_Arawn

[VintageSWTOR]

Don't do this.

 

I get you want to restructure classes, maybe to give them more identity and customization through choices - but this is not the way.

 

I have played WoW for 15 years. I have played SWG pre NGE. I have played a bunch of MMOs over the years. And if I can tell you one thing - senselessly pruning classes, condensing them down so even a 6 year old can play the game - and then feed your players the pruned abilities back as "choices" in a skill tree is bad. If you really want SWTOR to burn to the ground, be my guest and implement this. But your players will not like it.

 

If you really want to shake things up then take this back to the drawing board. Have it delayed to the next expansion (8.0). Give it YEARS of PTS so your players will be happy in the end. THAT is how you rework your classes, not internally with less then 5 months going until release.

 

In the meantime just implement it so force users can choose whatever force tree is currently in the game (with dark side/light side restrictions) and tech users can use whatever tech tree is currently in the game. That alone is perfectly fine and will make your players happy as they just can be.

 

No one asked you to completely rework and prune classes. So, either don't do it at all or if you really want to give it more time. But not this <5 months until the xpac.

[shaalae]

Combat on live is absolutley fine! It is fun, it is engaging and it is challenging at times. That goes for PvP and PvE. Sure some tweaks are necessary here and there. We all know a MMO is never 100% balanced.

The only thing we players really need is more content to enjoy that combat in!

What the devs are doing right now is, imo, completely unnnecessary...

 

PvP: The scope of things they attempt to do here is really worrying. I am not sure they have understood that removing abilitites like DCDs will affect the performance against other classes very differently. The Guardian needs the various DCDs to deal with slows, stuns, roots, repositioning/reset abilities and massive dmg spikes some classes have. So they have to look at all those different skills and how they play against a Guardian with less DCDs! And they have to do that with all classes – this will be a major undertaking!

I simply don't believe this can be done in a few months.

 

PvE: Same argument here. They have to look at every single boss fight in the game. And check the performance of every single class. And not only for tanks. Seems unlikely that this can be done within the alloted time frame.

 

Class identity: One of the main things that makes combat fun in SWTOR is that the classes 'feel' right. A Guardian and a Juggernaut really feel like a Guardian and a Juggernaut. They are slow, can absorb dmg spikes, guard others, can be in the thick of things – all that paired with really fun animations (for the most part). That is their identity.

Why do they want to rewrite that identity?

It will alienate almost everyone (as shown in this thread) who plays the class as it immediatly destroys the connection a player has with his/her character.

This is a terrible idea.

 

Skill: The current trend in gaming is to have dumbed down combat. You can see this in almost every other game (eg. compare ESO veteran ranks system to what it is now) and SWTOR already was dumbed down in overland difficulty in the past. We can argue a lot if this is a good thing or not.

But the fact is: There is 'too simple'. When combat doesn't feel engaging anymore, when you don't have to think about what ability is best to use, but have a few abilities that do everything, combat is a lot less fun.

I oversimplify here but i hope i get the point across.

 

 

 

 

(If these changes go live, i will most likely stop playing. I already feel disheartened since the announcements of these changes and play a lot less.

I'd lose the connection i have with my character, my Guardian would cease to be a Guardian. I would be sad, SWTOR always had a special place in my gamer heart, but i don't think i could stomach those massive changes and the loss of the class identity.)

Edited July 17, 2021 by shaalae

[SirrSlaughterr]

It's pretty unbelievable that devs would still be going forward with these changes after the overwhelming pleas to leave the classes with the abilities they already have. I have seen NO ONE asking for these changes, but somehow you are all going to try to justify this will balance the game? If people find the game too complicated you don't dumb it down for everyone just to appease the unskilled few. They have always had the CHOICE not to use certain abilities to make things easier on them by using fewer abilities, but taking them away from everyone is not choice, it's forcing players to continue playing the same content with fewer USEFUL abilities that are really needed!

 

I mainly play Vigilance, so I probably won't feel the loss of some defensive cooldowns as much as Defense guardians will, but you are going to exacerbate the issue of limited tanks queueing for group content by making tanking wholly unviable! Why would any dev team ever think this is what players are asking for? Why would any of you be excited to show this off?? Why why why would you KILL the game for its 10 year anniversary???

 

And how can any of you make the argument that pruning abilities adds content just because you give us a passive in its place? PVE and PVP are separate entities and always have been, so why gut all the class's useful abilities JUST to try to bring balance to a facet of the game that some of the player base NEVER plays? I feel like I'm going crazy here! Is EA making your team drive the players away so they can justify pulling the plug on the entire game when the players inevitably leave?

 

I don't mean any of this to sound cruel or overly dramatic, but I cannot fathom why any team would do this to a game many of us have cherished for nearly a decade. Don't Game of Thrones this game BioWare! Please don't do this just because you've been working on it for some time and you don't want to start over on something new for us. I would honestly prefer no new expansions at all if this is what you now have in mind. I worry you have all lost your way and I beg you not to implement this system or ANY system that would remove abilities that make the classes fun to play and ultimately what they are.

 

Lastly, you require an active subscription in order to access the PTS. That is now the ONLY reason I see to stay subbed, if only to see how bad the game will become. I will likely be leaving the game altogether if things don't take a hard 180 from what is currently on there. I say this, though I feel like if you cared, you would have given us a more reassuring response to our concerns....

[DjiiniTwo]

It's pretty unbelievable that devs would still be going forward with these changes after the overwhelming pleas to leave the classes with the abilities they already have.

 

Top theory I've seen is that it's part of a push to make the game simple enough to put on consoles.

[FumblesPhD]

Top theory I've seen is that it's part of a push to make the game simple enough to put on consoles.

 

I personally don't see this happening, but what do I know?

[Labranth]

Top theory I've seen is that it's part of a push to make the game simple enough to put on consoles.

 

Yeah, the release date of Steam Deck PC-based console strangely coincides with these new "fresh combat systems" we're getting, so it's something to think about. Still too far fetched in my opinion. Looks like simple pruning down of an actual dev team and the effort EA wants to put into SWTOR.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Labranth

[DjiiniTwo]

Yeah, the release date of Steam Deck PC-based console strangely coincide with these new "fresh combat systems" we're getting, so it's something to think about. Still too far fetched in my opinion. Looks like simple pruning down of an actual dev team and the effort EA wants to put into SWTOR.

 

The problem as presented, though, is that doing this change correctly would require a TON of effort! They'd have been better off not doing anything at all; Combat Styles are enough of a change to keep it fresh.

 

I personally don't see this happening, but what do I know?

 

Well, it's what I have to hope about. If there really isn't any remotely solid reason for them to make this change, they'll look rather the fool, won't they? The number of people who are in support of the change are quite low compared to those vocally opposing it.

Edited July 17, 2021 by DjiiniTwo

[Labranth]

The problem as presented, though, is that doing this change correctly would require a TON of effort! They'd have been better off not doing anything at all; Combat Styles are enough of a change to keep it fresh.

 

Well it's either very good if they want to rework all combat system and basically remaster the game for 10th anniversary (Press X to doubt), or it's very, very bad and they want nothing from SWTOR but simplify it into oblivion so that it would require less resources to "maintain".

 

doing this change correctly would require a TON of effort! They'd have been better off not doing anything at all

 

As was said above numerous times, why fix something that's not broken. Unnecessary.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Labranth

[runescapeisgood]

As a returning player who almost exclusively pvps, I felt obligated to come into this thread to commend Bioware because this is one of the few times of my decade of playing the game on and off that I read a dev post and found that it actually correlated 100% to my experience. Tedious is 100% the perfect word to describe PvP right now and I find it truly encouraging that you're willing to acknowledge that and make real substantial changes to fix this.

 

I think a lot of people who have been playing the game consistently without leaving for stints have been frog boiled into thinking the TTK is fine because its been increasing through small incremental steps, but when you see what the experience is like through fresh eyes I can tell you definitively that its way higher than it ever was before and that compared to older patches it quite frankly sucks. I experienced it myself, as did a number of my friends who I recently brought back to the game to mess around in PvP, and I saw it happen yet again on twitch today when I watched summit1g give up on the game because the PvP experience is just so boring and frustrating right now.

 

Obviously when making changes to classes there are always multiple perspectives to consider. There are people in this thread with valid concerns regarding class identity, pve balance, and a bunch of other stuff, and while I'm not really all that qualified to comment on those areas, I can tell you definitively as someone who has spent thousands of hours playing pretty much every class in regs, ranked 8's, and arenas, that these proposed changes will go a hell of a long way towards improving the current state of the game's pvp.

[beekayisme]

Hi everyone,

 

Following up on the post I made a couple days ago. We wanted to bring clarity to some of the feedback we’ve been reading. First, we would like to share our philosophy on reducing the number of defensive cooldowns available.

 

Over several years and updates, more and more defensive cooldowns and abilities have been added to the game. Often times this was for class balance purposes, to allow some classes to keep up with others in terms of their defensive kit. Additionally, this was done without adjusting things like Operation boss mechanics which were designed around the class kits available at the time: mainly less defensive cooldowns. The sheer quantity of defensive cooldowns in the game today makes things more difficult to balance for both PvE and PvP. It has made some PvE mechanics completely avoidable, and made the time-to-kill metric in PvP grow steadily to the point where we are approaching tedious levels.

 

In 7.0, we want to reduce the quantity of defensive skills overall, across all classes, making for a more balanced and enjoyable experience in both PvE and PvP content, while at the same time making the defensives that remain more impactful and fun.

 

What does this look like in both modes?

• In PvP, our intent is balanced, more dynamic player encounters that move away from rotating defensive cooldowns and move more towards utilizing a broader set of skills in each class’s kit.
  
• In PvE, our intent is to take into account these changes, and adjust NPC encounters as needed to compensate.
  

Getting a bit more specific, we also intend to give upgraded versions of abilities when being presented as a choice. Here’s one example using Blade Blitz from the current PTS:

• Blade Blitz in the Live game:
  
• 45 second cooldown
  
• Quickly rush forward 20 meters, dealing weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while blitzing. Cannot be used while immobilized or hindered.
  

Blade Blitz on PTS:

• 35 second cooldown
  
• Quickly rush forward 20 meters, dealing weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while blitzing. Can be used while immobilized and purges movement-impairing effects when activated.
  

Instead of spending utility points to upgrade abilities, as in the current system, you will be presented with an already upgraded version of several abilities to choose between leading to more interesting decision making, customization, and greater choice for your kit.

 

In addition to defensive cooldowns, we want to streamline other abilities where it makes sense. For example, instead of dedicating an entirely separate ability and button press to a particular effect, we want to merge or combine them with others in an intuitive way. We can see this in action on the PTS with Freezing Force:

 

• Freezing Force is removed from Guardians on the PTS, but a modification to Blade Storm via the new ability choice tree upgrades Blade Storm into an AoE that also slows. This offers a similar effect to the old ability, but in a more efficient way.
  

The intent of the new ability system, which will replace the current utility points system, is that players can make meaningful choices to accommodate their play style or situational needs. Players will be able to pick their own ability modifications and customize their skills in this manner, with all of those choices able to be saved to a Loadout. Loadouts will be able to be swapped with similar ease to the current Utility point system. While the ability choice interface and Loadout features are still in development, those experiences are core to the system and we are working hard to get them to a state where they can be shared on the PTS in a future update. We will share more details in the future on both of these features.

 

One of the reasons we wanted to share these class changes with our players so early is because we wanted to get your feedback as we are still in the design phase of several other classes. As stated previously, you are not playing a final product. While very rough around the edges, the earlier we can share impactful changes like this the more we can take into account your feedback as we continue building out the remaining classes and iterating on ones you’re able to try out on the PTS.

 

Lastly, for this phase of PTS, the Jedi Guardian was missing both their breaker (Resolute) and interrupt (Force Kick). We understand that players may be worried about what that means for 7.0. It was never our intention to completely remove these from the game. We realize this has caused confusion, so we are going to add these back for the next phase of PTS with the caveat that they may change form in the future. We are currently iterating on different ways of utilizing breaker functionality that doesn’t necessarily require an independent icon on your hotbar as well as considering where interrupts fit in with the overall class and encounter design of 7.0. Because of this, we didn’t include these in the testable ability sets on PTS.

 

Please keep in mind that breakers and Interrupts will remain in-game, they just might not appear in the same form as they are now.

 

Thank you for playing PTS and giving us your constructive feedback.

 

I am only talking about PVE

 

I am not sure if this came out before reading the feedbacks on this thread. If "we read every feedbacks" is true, then the overwhelming rejection to the new implementation goes directly against what you are saying here. People want more choices not removal of skills.

 

From healer's perspective, a part of tank's job is to use DCD cleverly to smooth the damage spikes. Giving them less tools to do so dumbs down their role. As a healer, I used all my DCDs in operations. I cant imagine loosing any of them as they each respond to different situations. Taking away any just make me less effective regardless of any minor buffs. Am I to choose between calm mind, overload and force barrier?

 

In terms of balance, how are you going to redo all skill trees and all HM+NiM operations in just 5 months? Especially now in July it's only the first draft and 'feedbacks are still being considered'.

 

Overall I am quite disappointed. It seems that all the feedbacks are ignored completely.

Edited July 17, 2021 by beekayisme

[Labranth]

From healer's perspective, a part of tank's job is to use DCD cleverly to smooth the damage spikes. Giving them less tools to do so dumbs down their role. As a healer, I used all my DCDs in operations. I cant imagine loosing any of them as they each respond to different situations. Taking away any just make me less effective regardless of any minor buffs. Am I to choose between calm mind, overload and force barrier?

 

As a former Sorc heal myself who did a lot of ranked PvP I resonate with that on a personal level. Delete one of key healing / dcd abilites and you're just a walking dead potato who can't do much but Force Speed and die. I don't even main Guardian but I started a thread to adress exactly this problem. You can't prune down key abilities on which entire rotations are constructed. They want to dumb down all classes and this is just counterproductive.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Labranth

[igonnakillya]

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

 

Please answer the following questions:

• Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.
  
• Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  
• What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  
• How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

 

Thank you!

 

[*]Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

Kind of but not really. It feels like a dumbed down version of the Jedi Guardian. General PvE play feels pretty standard and I have no trouble doing everything I need to do to defeat enemies and complete objectives. I haven't participated in Operations or Flashpoints but I can already tell there is going to be an issue. Saber Reflect is a MUST during OPS and FPs. Having to choose between that and my escape/gap closing dash is not something a tank should have to do. Same goes for Enure. The other problem is no interrupt. This is a standard for every class across all of SWTOR. I have feeling it's not going away for good but it feels strange not having it. I'm not sure how I feel about that quite yet. PvP is also going to be a problem choosing between abilities and dumbing down the class. Jedi Guardians shine with CC. Not having the capability to have your team dog pile an opponent seems off. I will let you make that what you will. I will update my answer to this more thoroughly when I've run OPs and FPs. Thank you for reading and everything you do for this game! Been playing since Beta 2011. Thank you for giving me KOTOR the MMO and Swoop Bikes!

 

[*]Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

 

As stated above, Saber Reflect, Blade Blitz and the class general interrupt. Also the stand up ability when you get knocked down or stunned...where did that go?

 

[*]What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

 

In General PvE, it feels fine, but general PvE is not where this class usually shines. This class usually shines in Operations, Flashpoints and PvP. I will update when I have participated in this content.

 

[*]How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

It's ok. It feels like a dumbed down version of the class, but not necessarily in a good way.

 

[*]If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

What We expected as Players based on the most recent Live Stream:

We expected to be able to choose our base class (Knight, Consular, Warrior, Inquisitor) and then based on your light side/dark side alignment we expected to be able to choose our Advanced class/Combat Styles, as they are in the game currently. No Deleted abilities. No having to choose between them.

For example for this Scenario: I would choose the Jedi Knight base class and receive abilities that the Jedi Knight obtains up to a certain level. Let's say Level 10. Then I choose my Advanced Class/Combat style and start receiving abilities based on that Advanced class/Combat style, in this case Defense Jedi Guardian, kind of how the skill trees worked at launch in 2011. Kind of how you already have it just without an A,B and C track along an Advanced Class/Combat Style/Combat Proficiency/Skill Tree. You would get access to the whole tree, in this instance the Defense Jedi Guardian Tank Tree instead of the A branch, B branch or C branch singularly.

 

I specifically chose the Defense Jedi Guardian, Branch B for this post and the public test server.

 

Again Thank you for everything you do! I've been playing this game since Beta 2011! Seriously, thank you for everything!

[JattaGin]

7.0 is coming in 5 months. How do you plan to get all the classes done AND all the content adjustments until then? I don't think that there is enough time and I am highly worried for 7.0 being pushed live unfinished and left in a troublesome state for the holidays. Everyone knows that the first patch after the December updates will come earliest in February.

 

It's too late for your plan, BW, in m opinion. You will not be able to finish this task successfully in time. As you wrote in your 7.0 announcement: The celebrations will continue throughout 2022. My suggestion: Move all those rebalancing / class changes to next summer. You will need a full year to make it work the way you want the game to be like.

 

My actual suggestion though: Scrap the whole idea and focus on NEW content, stories and things to play. This is the part where 7.0 should shine, but so far, it sounds smaller in scope than 6.0. A 10 years anniversary update should in my opinion be - storywise - in the scope of KotFE. Not less than Onslaught which was already underwhelming regarding new story and content.

 

I don't want to relearn how I play all my characters. I want to play new stories. I wished you would focus on that.

[Slipshadow]

Top theory I've seen is that it's part of a push to make the game simple enough to put on consoles.

 

My theory is that the ghost of Ben Irving past is here to ruin holiday season 2021.

 

In all seriousness, I am trying to keep an open mind, but all of this seems like a really short-sighted idea to broaden the games appeal to the least engaged and unengaged players at the expense of it's most engaged. It is inevitable that BioWare will miss balancing pieces of content around these changes, and players will be forced to report problems and wait patch after patch after content is rebalanced and updated. Just look at how long it too them to rebalance and update Uprisings most recently. Or how long it took them to roll out each of the Machine God encounters.

 

The worst part is that this is a well-intention solution in search of a problem. Similar pruning and changes have gone down in WoW in the past, multiple times. It has almost always backfired and the developers have steadily re-introduced pruned abilities over the past few expansions. They're doing work today they very likely may regret or may have to undo tomorrow.

 

I work in games, I am very well aware of SDLC. I've been on both sides of the coin as a player and a developer. I will be absolutely shocked if they manage to get this right in the first pass, and players don't spend months absolutely miserable and make the devs more miserable. With that primer out of the way, some more specific feedback.

 

***

 

While I am theoretically okay with streamlining some abilities, modifying the CC breaks and interrupts, the criticality of HOW is beyond paramount. On Reddit an example that I saw was merging a CC break into Blade Blitz as a possibility - I am not suggesting that this would be the implementation, just explaining why this (or something like this) would be TERRIBLE:

 

• Let's say that the enemy 3 yards in front of me was just CC'd, set up by my healer. In response the enemy healer CC's me. If the CC on the enemy in front of me breaks on damage, it is very likely that using my CC break would also break out my enemy. Tactical gameplay? Maybe. Bad for new or inexperienced players. More confusing and frustrating, not less.
  
• Let's say that I am the tank and there is a CC mechanic during a boss fight. Blade Blitz forward to break that CC, repositioning the boss, disrupting melee DPS rotations, potentially LoSing a healer, dashing over a mechanic on the floor, or whoopsing right off a cliff. Tactical gameplay? Maybe. Bad for new or inexperienced players. More confusing and frustrating, not less.
  

 

I saw suggestions that interrupts would be added to rotational abilities, which would be just as bad. There would be nothing worse in PvP than having to hold a primary rotational DPS ability in combat just-in-case you need it in 3 seconds to setup a kill on a healer, or interrupt some cross-CC. To repeat, we haven't seen what the implementation is, we're speculating, but that's all we can do. These changes will be very difficult for the devs to get right, and for a team a tight on resources as the SWToR team is, this is a really dangerous game with immense risk of self-inflicted wounds.

 

***

 

Now, to address some of the player response.

 

I've seen a lot of players make comments implying that these are welcome changes. They have too many buttons! Or they don't PvP so they don't care the impact this will have on PvP. Or they don't NiM raid so they don't care about the impact there. The TTK is too high in PvP!

 

In the highest levels of coordination the TTK in PvP is pretty great. If it gets lowered, the more experienced PvP players will absolutely troll murder stomp uncoordinated groups in entry level PvP experience. This will absolutely drive less experienced and less skilled players away from PvP. Also, Guardians already get trounced so this is a head scratcher.

 

If NiM or PvP is not properly balanced, those players are also more likely to just quit the game. That takes those players out of the pool for other content, so it will impact your queue times and other aspects of gameplay even if you don't play NiM or PvP. You might think the players of these modes are elitist jerks, and some are, but for every elitist jerk there is a patient pro who is out there helping less experienced players without being a jerk.

 

Telling these players to stop being elitist, stop acting like a baby, or to stop overreacting is just foolish hypocrisy. These concerns are valid. For these players, this system is not streamlining or improving anything, all it is doing is removing choice and gameplay alternatives; the new systems aren't asking them to choose their playstyle, it's asking them to choose what they want to give up that they have today.

 

***

 

Finally, a warning.

 

There has been a trend in the Games as a Service (GaaS) where developers make poorly planned decisions to implement systems that the community-at-large warn against. This inevitably leads to a decline in player engagement, which then cause the teams to focus more efforts on fairly exploitative non-gameplay cash shop items to recover the lost revenue. So even if you, as a player, believe that this streamlining is good, listen to your fellows, because when they do leave the game will get worse. If you're a designer or an engineer working on these systems listen to your players, because if you don't you're dooming yourself to work on content you don't want to be making, and an ever-more-angry diminishing playerbase.

 

The customer is always right... about problems, not necessarily solutions. Rather than believing that you know better, find fulfillment in working with them to solve those problems, rather than continuing to parade through the angry mob.

 

To put it another way, if the customer is asking you to cut their sandwich in half, give them a knife. Let them decide whether they want to cut it in half diagonally, vertically, or horizontally, otherwise you will inevitably disappoint some of them.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Slipshadow

[Wolvel]

Finally, a warning.

 

There has been a trend in the Games as a Service (GaaS) where developers make poorly planned decisions to implement systems that the community-at-large warn against. This inevitably leads to a decline in player engagement, which then cause the teams to focus more efforts on fairly exploitative non-gameplay cash shop items to recover the lost revenue. So even if you, as a player, believe that this streamlining is good, listen to your fellows, because when they do leave the game will get worse. If you're a designer or an engineer working on these systems listen to your players, because if you don't you're dooming yourself to work on content you don't want to be making, and an ever-more-angry diminishing playerbase.

 

The customer is always right... about problems, not necessarily solutions. Rather than believing that you know better, find fulfillment in working with them to solve those problems, rather than continuing to parade through the angry mob.

 

To put it another way, if the customer is asking you to cut their sandwich in half, give them a knife. Let them decide whether they want to cut it in half diagonally, vertically, or horizontally, otherwise you will inevitably disappoint some of them.

 

Dude I got flashbacks of that game firefall

[Slipshadow]

Dude I got flashbacks of that game firefall

 

Yeah, there have been a lot of games making similar mistakes over the past ~10 years. And it's only gotten worse as more and more devs come to view their playerbase as hostile or "toxic." It unfortunately becomes the norm to treat valid criticism as adversarial, becoming increasingly insular and detached from their own communities. Which leads to worse decision making and more hostile audiences.

 

It becomes this weird who-shot-first standoff. The developers blame the community for being abrasive. The players say they're abrasive because the developers ruin the game. Where you come down on that line varies from person to person and context to context, but generally speaking everyone is wrong and it's just doomed.