Storyline and Open-World Content Difficulty or lack of...

[robertthebard]

Back before level sync, I used to skip side missions. In each chapter, I would choose the higher level orange/red planet for funsies (I discovered I had to stack more accuracy to be able to damage those high leveled mobs). Later, I'd go back to the lower-level planet and speedrun it. It was a fun way to play the game.

 

After 4.0 EZ mode + level sync, I focused more on endgame. I would do bug hunt and imp hunt groups to speed level my way out of the mind-numbing gameplay of the main story.

 

TBH, I'm surprised no one has brought up "unsummon your companion" or "take off your gear." As if that were a viable way to play any video game.

 

Ultimately, I think the problem is that the devs balanced the original planets in 4.0 for EZ mode only. And as evidenced by the difficulty the devs have had in balancing +5 level and gearing with legacy raids vs new raids, they cannot simply give +X% more HP/DR/DPS to mobs & bosses. Therefore, I believe the game should have been balanced for "difficult" game play, then add something like jesus droid/ 30 stack VE/ etc for the folks that want EZ mode. Because, in the end, you don't really have to balance EZ mode.

 

The problem I have with this is that I've been playing since before 4.0, and I don't understand where this claim of "the game was more difficult" comes from. As I stated in an earlier post, the only place quest bosses have ever been able to best my characters was in cutscenes. Other than that, no problems whatsoever. Wait, that's not entirely accurate, I was interrupting the wrong skill the very first time I finished the Consular story. That made it interesting for about two rotations, and then I got it right, and nope, not hard at all.

 

I did my solo run of Battle of Ilum well before 4.0, with no Story Mode. I was soloing the H4 on Oricon with a tank/dps set up, well before 4.0, while Oricon was still relevant. So when people talk about all this difficulty, I have to wonder what they're actually talking about. About the only thing I've seen in this thread, or any of it's counterparts over the years that I can agree with is locking the final missions that wind up on starter planets to whatever level they were supposed to be, so Baras would be locked at, or around 50 in the instanced DC chamber. Maybe it's because I didn't have to L2P? Some of my comps are notably weaker now, than pre 4.0, maybe because I geared them in what was then end game NiM Op gear?

[Rion_Starkiller]

The problem I have with this is that I've been playing since before 4.0, and I don't understand where this claim of "the game was more difficult" comes from. As I stated in an earlier post, the only place quest bosses have ever been able to best my characters was in cutscenes. Other than that, no problems whatsoever. Wait, that's not entirely accurate, I was interrupting the wrong skill the very first time I finished the Consular story. That made it interesting for about two rotations, and then I got it right, and nope, not hard at all.

 

I did my solo run of Battle of Ilum well before 4.0, with no Story Mode. I was soloing the H4 on Oricon with a tank/dps set up, well before 4.0, while Oricon was still relevant. So when people talk about all this difficulty, I have to wonder what they're actually talking about. About the only thing I've seen in this thread, or any of it's counterparts over the years that I can agree with is locking the final missions that wind up on starter planets to whatever level they were supposed to be, so Baras would be locked at, or around 50 in the instanced DC chamber. Maybe it's because I didn't have to L2P? Some of my comps are notably weaker now, than pre 4.0, maybe because I geared them in what was then end game NiM Op gear?

 

In some ways, I could definitely be looking back with rose-tinted glasses. But I don't recall killing everything in 1-2 hits pre-4.0, unless I was 3+ levels over the planet recommendation (I think Ilum was level 50?). This is why I skipped a lot of side missions so as not to be overleveled. Back then, I think I could actually complete 1 "rotation" on gold mobs before they died....?

Edited April 21, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[robertthebard]

In some ways, I could definitely be looking back with rose-tinted glasses. But I don't recall killing everything in 1-2 hits pre-4.0, unless I was 3+ levels over the planet recommendation (I think Ilum was level 50?). This is why I skipped a lot of side missions so as not to be overleveled. Back then, I think I could actually complete 1 "rotation" on gold mobs before they died....?

 

Here's what I recall, on my very first toon, on Korriban, 5 minutes after I got Vette:

 

Me, attacks mob, Vette last hits it, me, cusses Vette for last hitting, and it went like that for three planets. End of the story: Me, attacks Barras, along with Vette, cutscene. Attack again, get bowed to by the DC. All within the first month or so of playing, so no maxed out crafters filling in my gear. After I had maxed out crafters, things did get easier, but, and this may come as a surprise to some of the people posting here, I worked really hard to trivialize the game, and I wasn't surprised to find out that I had.

[OlBuzzard]

Agreed, this way people can choose which they want to do and maybe then and only then would others stop putting people down and calling names because they don't want to do things the way someone else wants to. Sometimes, I just wish for once people would not put others down because they don't like the same things or play the same way.

 

This would be a good idea of having varying instances where you can choose.

 

The really cool thing is ... the foundation has already been laid for this !!

 

OH !! another add-on to that idea:

IF someone were putting together a "group" the leader of said group should be the one who controls the "decisions" in the conversation / dialogue / story !! That should help take the space-bar riding control in the hands of just one person !

 

Just my $.02 worth for the day !!

[robertthebard]

The really cool thing is ... the foundation has already been laid for this !!

 

OH !! another add-on to that idea:

IF someone were putting together a "group" the leader of said group should be the one who controls the "decisions" in the conversation / dialogue / story !! That should help take the space-bar riding control in the hands of just one person !

 

Just my $.02 worth for the day !!

 

Except that we earn Social Points from winning the rolls on those conversations.

 

If a group is going to be space barring the dialogs, and they state that at the beginning, and one player isn't, vote kick and replace with a comp.

 

If the group is flower sniffing their way through the FP, listening to the dialogs as they go, and someone starts raging about the space bar, vote kick 'em and replace with a comp.

 

This is a "problem" with a built in solution, so no need to go "fixing" it.

[OlBuzzard]

Except that we earn Social Points from winning the rolls on those conversations.

 

If a group is going to be space barring the dialogs, and they state that at the beginning, and one player isn't, vote kick and replace with a comp.

 

If the group is flower sniffing their way through the FP, listening to the dialogs as they go, and someone starts raging about the space bar, vote kick 'em and replace with a comp.

 

This is a "problem" with a built in solution, so no need to go "fixing" it.

 

The biggest problem is that so many end up with negative influence ( dark side or light) when they don't want it too !! So it's a trade off of sorts.

 

Also: this IS a SOLUTION to an on going debate over the level of difficulty available in game !!

 

If anything ... this might also encourage more groups rather than just drop kick anyone who doesn't "fit in".

[xordevoreaux]

The really cool thing is ... the foundation has already been laid for this !!

 

OH !! another add-on to that idea:

IF someone were putting together a "group" the leader of said group should be the one who controls the "decisions" in the conversation / dialogue / story !! That should help take the space-bar riding control in the hands of just one person !

 

Just my $.02 worth for the day !!

 

BOO to that idea. It's fun when 3 people pick the DS choice and there I am winning with the LS choice. Stupid, meaningless, but why take that away?

Edited April 22, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[OlBuzzard]

 

[/snip]

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QFE and i basically said the same thing in one of my earlier posts.

 

Time will tell if BioWare has the time/interest in going back through all 8 Class storylines AND nearly all planet quest phases to do a big 'difficulty pass' in the 10th year of SWTOR.

 

I hope they do. But i highly doubt it. Then again, i never thought they'd get rid of original 'skill trees' or 'pvp expertise' stat, but they did. So, who knows.

 

Trust me ... I get it !! I've posted this idea waaay back months and months ago ... (buried around here in some long since forgotten thread).

 

It comes down to whether or not EA will turn lose of the funding and BW is willing to invest the time!! BUT IMO it's definitely doable !

 

Hence this post :

 

I have suggested ( many times ) that there be made available the ability to choose a greater ( more flexible) level of difficulty in more areas of the game.

 

If it is instanced ... it's possible !!

** story mode (just as the title indicates minimal level of difficulty)

** veteran (more like the current SoV level recommended for experienced players looking for more of a challange)

** master (increased difficulty level )

** élite ( totally nuts !! But no doubt "fun" for some players)

 

These levels could be made available for either group or solo players !!

 

IN any case IMO we'll never see that much of a change again. KotFE / ET repeatable areas with different levels of difficulty was a great idea. But I also rather suspect that so many people had nothing but contempt for part of the game we'll never see the amount of time and effort required to create that sort of an expansion ever put into the game ever again !

 

Note: and yes .. I did add the different level. It sort of seems to work better to differentiate between "story" and normal solo (or veteran solo ) mode !!

 

But there again .. the point for the most part is rather a moot one since the likely hood of this happening is more than likely less then zero !!

 

So I guess for the most part I'll just gracefully bow out on the rest of the discussion. It's no reflection upon anyone. I guess you might say I've settled into a frame of mind that is almost melancholy of late. Perhaps in time that might be swayed into a more positive review of events as they unfold into reality !!

Edited April 22, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[robertthebard]

The biggest problem is that so many end up with negative influence ( dark side or light) when they don't want it too !! So it's a trade off of sorts.

 

Also: this IS a SOLUTION to an on going debate over the level of difficulty available in game !!

 

If anything ... this might also encourage more groups rather than just drop kick anyone who doesn't "fit in".

 

It's not a problem, at least, not any more. There's a distinct lack of gear requiring specific alignments any more. Removing one of the only sources of Social Points does not do anything for difficulty, it just makes it a lot harder to get social points. If one is overly concerned about their alignment, they can form their own group of like minded individuals, and queue for a random, or walk in, whichever they're planning to do.

[TrixxieTriss]

Note: and yes .. I did add the different level. It sort of seems to work better to differentiate between "story" and normal solo (or veteran solo ) mode !!

 

I think this part is important because story and solo aren’t necessarily the same difficulty.

 

One thing that the game suffers from is a non linear approach to difficulty. In a lot of cases it can go from extremely easy to near impossible without a trinity group that’s all in BiS gear.

 

I do like how you added the “4th” difficulty level in your list because we don’t currently have 4 Lvls of difficulty when it comes to story content and this could be an option.

 

Before the rebalancing (which wasn’t all announced as far as I can tell), I was able to complete most of Kotet and Kotfe chapters on master mode or at least on veteran mode. Now I find them impossible on master mode and too large of a percentage of them impossible on veteran mode (I can probably do about 50% on veteran). And that is in BiS gear with lvl 50 companions.

 

The increase in difficulty is huge and I think a lot of it is overkill because even the very best players aren’t going to play master mode chapters by themselves. The difficulty isn’t gradual either. You can go through some chapters on veteran and can hardly tell they are harder then story. Then you go into the next one and get one shot killed or die faster than you can mitigate or your comp can heal. Under those circumstances, they are actually harder than they use to be on mastermode.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Here's what I recall, on my very first toon, on Korriban, 5 minutes after I got Vette:

 

Me, attacks mob, Vette last hits it, me, cusses Vette for last hitting, and it went like that for three planets. End of the story: Me, attacks Barras, along with Vette, cutscene. Attack again, get bowed to by the DC. All within the first month or so of playing, so no maxed out crafters filling in my gear. After I had maxed out crafters, things did get easier, but, and this may come as a surprise to some of the people posting here, I worked really hard to trivialize the game, and I wasn't surprised to find out that I had.

 

Like I said, one of the ways I would challenge myself would be to go to the higher leveled planet. For example, in Chapter 2 of the Smuggler storyline, you don't have to do Balmorra first in the storyline. You could go to Quesh first. Chances are you would be underleveled, thus more difficult.

 

As for starting planets, those are probably the easiest and not a very good example of game difficulty pre-level sync. To be fair, nothing in the game was hard back then -- I'm just saying it seems even easier now.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[robertthebard]

Like I said, one of the ways I would challenge myself would be to go to the higher leveled planet. For example, in Chapter 2 of the Smuggler storyline, you don't have to do Balmorra first in the storyline. You could go to Quesh first. Chances are you would be underleveled, thus more difficult.

 

As for starting planets, those are probably the easiest and not a very good example of game difficulty pre-level sync. To be fair, nothing in the game was hard back then -- I'm just saying it seems even easier now.

 

My point was more to the fact that even back then, some of the comps were "OP", and the Baras story was way before 4.0, so no level sync. I'm not way behind on the latest BiS because I just started, I'm way behind because I take really long breaks when I get burnt out. The game is going to seem even easier now, and still would w/out level sync, because of player experience. So long as players are still struggling on early planets, like Nar Shaddaa or Tatooine, the game's not "too easy", it's just "too easy for us", and that's a distinction that needs to be made.

[Rion_Starkiller]

My point was more to the fact that even back then, some of the comps were "OP", and the Baras story was way before 4.0, so no level sync. I'm not way behind on the latest BiS because I just started, I'm way behind because I take really long breaks when I get burnt out. The game is going to seem even easier now, and still would w/out level sync, because of player experience. So long as players are still struggling on early planets, like Nar Shaddaa or Tatooine, the game's not "too easy", it's just "too easy for us", and that's a distinction that needs to be made.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I think you make a great point. "Too easy for us" is a common theme in the raiding community as well. If a player has run nim tfb 8,467 times -- of course it's easy for them! But is it easier now than it was when TFB launched? Probably not, but maybe? Classes have more abilities now (plus amps and tacticals) than they did at level 50.

 

Here's something fun to play around with from the 2.0 days: http://www.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/

It's possible the game was harder because we were new and didn't know how to properly spend skill tree points to maximum effect. Also, there were a lot of dummies, such as taking Aim stat when you're a Sniper and supposed to take Cunning. Or like me who took Shield stat to boost his Operative's Shield Probe lol.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[robertthebard]

His base skill level is clearly higher than average, so that's his point-of-reference. Everyone does not begin with the same skill level. What was always easy for him was not always easy to others. But everything is always easy now, unless you can't grasp basic game concepts.

 

With this in mind, I know that I've never started, or participated in a thread insisting that the difficulty be ramped up to my level of play. Even for this, I'm not the best player ever, I just know my classes, my roles, and what to do when. I have always understood that there are others that aren't up to that, for whatever reasons, and it may not even be that they can't grasp basic mechanics. A favorite healer friend of mine in DDO was outstanding in regular group content, up to Elite Difficulty, but was prone to panic in raids, she just got overwhelmed, and couldn't handle it, especially if things went pear shaped.

 

With things like that in mind, I don't concern myself with the story content. It's presented as it needs to be. Accessible for whoever wants to play it. If I'm feeling the need to be challenged, I can hit a raid, or a FP. My last random FP, a few months back, I had to heal on a DPS Sage. Not the best situation to find myself in, especially since I don't really like to play healers, but I did it, and nobody died. Yeah, I had to adjust my playstyle to fit what I had to do, but I was able to do it. I don't expect others to be able to play that way. As I said, it's too easy for us, but that does not mean it's too easy.

[phalczen]

The biggest problem is that so many end up with negative influence ( dark side or light) when they don't want it too !! So it's a trade off of sorts.

 

Also: this IS a SOLUTION to an on going debate over the level of difficulty available in game !!

 

If anything ... this might also encourage more groups rather than just drop kick anyone who doesn't "fit in".

 

Actually, you still get the light points because of your decision (or dark points as applicable) regardless of who wins the conversation rolls. Plus, you will get light side or dark side points regardless based on your toggle near the mini map. So, its really not an issue anymore.

 

On topic ... It's really a moot point OP. The Devs are on-record saying they never want progression through story content to be gated or blocked because of difficulty. Therefore the story will always be balanced for a very basic level of skill. It would be great if story content moving forward could be constructed like the 3 difficulty tiers of the chapters of KOTFE/KOTET, or if somehow the class stories could be retrofitted to have that functionality, because I think that would make both sides of this debate happy. Time and resources all need to be balanced for what will have appeal or benefit the most number of players. I hope the development team receive the time and resources to do that task, and still release interesting new endgame and new story content in a timely fashion, correct long standing bugs, address balance issues, and communicate with the players.

Edited April 23, 2021 by phalczen

[TrixxieTriss]

I would like to clear up a misnomer about the white accord module. It is working as intended.

 

- The WAM was something added to the game after a few years of having double XP. It was never part of the original game.

 

- It was never designed to stop you lvling faster outside of the double XP event

 

- It was never designed with conquest in mind because conquest didn’t exist then.

 

- The white acute module “is still working as originally designed”. It is not broken, it just hasn’t been adapted to change in the game to do with conquest.

 

- People say it use to reduce XP outside of events, but I’ve played non stop since launch and my testing before Conquest was added didn’t prove it slowed XP outside of an event (I believe this myth was never proven to be true).

 

- The WAM also doesn’t disappear from your inventory when double XP isn’t on. You just need to make sure you buy one for each of you Alts before the vendor disappears or put one in your legacy storage to move around.

 

What BioWare could do is adapt the WAM to reduce XP outside of Double XP events.

They could also adjust it to halve the XP earned from Conquest.

But remember all this does is reduce XP earned and slow down levelling. It does not increase the game’s difficulty unless you are extremely under levelled for the content you are trying to play.

Edited April 23, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

On topic ... It's really a moot point OP. The Devs are on-record saying they never want progression through story content to be gated or blocked because of difficulty. Therefore the story will always be balanced for a very basic level of skill. It would be great if story content moving forward could be constructed like the 3 difficulty tiers of the chapters of KOTFE/KOTET, or if somehow the class stories could be retrofitted to have that functionality, because I think that would make both sides of this debate happy. Time and resources all need to be balanced for what will have appeal or benefit the most number of players. I hope the development team receive the time and resources to do that task, and still release interesting new endgame and new story content in a timely fashion, correct long standing bugs, address balance issues, and communicate with the players.

 

The only issue is when they add new content and then try and rebalance those 3 tiered difficulties because they never get it right. They either over buff or over Nerf the settings.

 

As I pointed out in one of my previous posts, I use to do master mode chapters solo. Now they are impossible and at least 50% of the veteran ones are now impossible too. I can not see anyone being able to complete the “current” master mode that isn’t in a proper trinity group with BiS gear and I honestly believe no one would bother grouping to play one persons chapters for them. Maybe if you could complete them as a group it would make sense, but you can’t. So there really is no point to them being made so ridiculously hard since the rebalance.

Even some of the veteran chapters are harder than the old master mode chapters use to be.

 

I don’t know if there is a solution that will 100% work if Bioware can’t do rebalancing of old content properly when they add new levels and content.

Edited April 23, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[OlBuzzard]

I think this part is important because story and solo aren’t necessarily the same difficulty.

 

One thing that the game suffers from is a non linear approach to difficulty. In a lot of cases it can go from extremely easy to near impossible without a trinity group that’s all in BiS gear.

 

I do like how you added the “4th” difficulty level in your list because we don’t currently have 4 Lvls of difficulty when it comes to story content and this could be an option.

 

Before the rebalancing (which wasn’t all announced as far as I can tell), I was able to complete most of Kotet and Kotfe chapters on master mode or at least on veteran mode. Now I find them impossible on master mode and too large of a percentage of them impossible on veteran mode (I can probably do about 50% on veteran). And that is in BiS gear with lvl 50 companions.

 

The increase in difficulty is huge and I think a lot of it is overkill because even the very best players aren’t going to play master mode chapters by themselves. The difficulty isn’t gradual either. You can go through some chapters on veteran and can hardly tell they are harder then story. Then you go into the next one and get one shot killed or die faster than you can mitigate or your comp can heal. Under those circumstances, they are actually harder than they use to be on mastermode.

 

^^^ And this, incidentally, includes the allowance for the new gearing system (as you have indicated)

 

IMO story mode does not need to be made easier ( as such ) ... just a more distinguished balance between the group I've listed. Unfortunately, however, I can almost guarantee that this will never happen !

[TrixxieTriss]

^^^ And this, incidentally, includes the allowance for the new gearing system (as you have indicated)

 

IMO story mode does not need to be made easier ( as such ) ... just a more distinguished balance between the group I've listed. Unfortunately, however, I can almost guarantee that this will never happen !

 

And you should have a choice to decide what mode you do it on the first time. At the moment you have to do it on the absolute easiest mode if you are doing the story on that character for the first time. You can only choose the difficulty after you’ve completed it the first time (for things like SOV). Which IMO, defeats the purpose entirely. At least with the chapters in Kotet and Kotfe, you can choose to play the harder setting when you first go through after doing it once on one character.

[Tofu_Shark]

I would like to clear up a misnomer about the white accord module. It is working as intended.

 

- The WAM was something added to the game after a few years of having double XP. It was never part of the original game.

 

- It was never designed to stop you lvling faster outside of the double XP event

 

- It was never designed with conquest in mind because conquest didn’t exist then.

 

- The white acute module “is still working as originally designed”. It is not broken, it just hasn’t been adapted to change in the game to do with conquest.

 

- People say it use to reduce XP outside of events, but I’ve played non stop since launch and my testing before Conquest was added didn’t prove it slowed XP outside of an event (I believe this myth was never proven to be true).

 

- The WAM also doesn’t disappear from your inventory when double XP isn’t on. You just need to make sure you buy one for each of you Alts before the vendor disappears or put one in your legacy storage to move around.

 

What BioWare could do is adapt the WAM to reduce XP outside of Double XP events.

They could also adjust it to halve the XP earned from Conquest.

But remember all this does is reduce XP earned and slow down levelling. It does not increase the game’s difficulty unless you are extremely under levelled for the content you are trying to play.

It's been a while but when I last checked, the WAM also applied to XP outside the event. This brought XP rewards back down to pre-4.0 levels.

[TrixxieTriss]

It's been a while but when I last checked, the WAM also applied to XP outside the event. This brought XP rewards back down to pre-4.0 levels.

 

That has always been the rumour, but I tested it back when and it’s not true.

[Tofu_Shark]

I tested it myself, it worked. The question is "Does it still work?"

[TrixxieTriss]

I tested it myself, it worked. The question is "Does it still work?"

 

Please provide proof it worked.

[Tofu_Shark]

I checked it years ago. I don't have proof, because I did it for myself. I don't have time right now to create a new character and take comparison screenshots

[TrixxieTriss]

I checked it years ago. I don't have proof, because I did it for myself. I don't have time right now to create a new character and take comparison screenshots

 

Then stop spreading rumours as facts

Edited April 23, 2021 by TrixxieTriss