Storyline and Open-World Content Difficulty or lack of...

[robertthebard]

They can try to, but many people will not be receptive towards them. The best ones though are the ones that are offered advice and they spit in the face of the other person. How dare they offer help at improving!

 

I guess you never played pretend as a child. Someone would always wind up saying, "You can't do that." Guess what happened if the group couldn't reach an agreement on what could and couldn't be done or someone didn't play along the same way: People didn't want to play with that person.

 

I guess it depends on how that "help" was offered. Ranting for 6 days about how someone didn't play "right" isn't really offering help, it's complaining that they didn't play "right". In either event, the best solution possible is always available to us: Form our own group, set the conditions, and run the content. If we're in a PuG and nobody wants to do what we want, we can drop that group, and queue for another, or form our own and hit the queue that way.

 

In the latter case, you can vote kick them. If the group disagrees, you may find that you're vote kicked, I've seen that happen too. Random player joins our guild group, and then tries to get us to kick a guild mate. He found himself kicked, and replaced with a comp, and guild chat lit up with "Ignore this player" along with an explanation as to why.

[Tofu_Shark]

I said "offering help" not raging at someone. There is a difference. Helping someone and raging at them are opposites.

 

You could jump ship, but depending on your class, you could be waiting a long time for another pop. Just like real life, sometimes you have to grin and bear working with people you don't get along with. The wisdom is in knowing when to walk away and when to stick around.

[Tergonite]

Just recently ran makeb with a new player, was explaining the fight for the hutts pet the first ^boss^ I remember it as quite tough but when we actually got to it, it died in seconds. as I've said before, and have numerous others, having scalable content, in instances, would go a long way in adressing some of the issues people have.

[Hadsil]

I'm aware of my interrupts and moving. It doesn't work. In Spirit of Vengeance my Jedi Knight can reach the end but dies at the second add on wave of the final boss, every time, all the time, no matter what I do. I go after the snipers first. I kill the first one. If I don't die before reaching the kolto tank to heal I die while attacking the second sniper. If I don't go to the kolto tank I die. If I go after the mob first I die in 5 seconds. For my Jedi Consular I can only reach the first Boss. Once his battle begins I die in three seconds.

 

Previous Story elements had their difficulties for me to learn, but it was a matter of tactics not gear. (Voss Walker the exception.) I still sometimes die fighting Revan, but then I realize I forgot to put my Companion on Heal. I was able to defeat him even before I knew what the globes meant when I just waited out his immunity and everyone is freed anyway. Manaan was a nightmare on the final boss as the scene kept resetting before I could kill him, until I learned to get him in that fire circle. Vaylin in Mindscape repeatedly killed me, until I learned to get out of the red area when she's floating. Even the infamous Sentinels on Iokath are no longer a problem having learned to Stomp, to defeat them without dying. Even before I learned that I had two characters defeat them anyway, but it took some deaths. The final boss on Umbara was a problem, until I learned to put Lana on heal so she can save herself and move out of the red light. I kill the mob around Lana when I can. They did nerf the Voss Walker quest. I was able to finish it before the nerf, but like everyone else it took many deaths to complete.

 

They don't have to dumb down Spirit of Vengeance for everyone. What they need to do is give back the Story level of play that always existed to complete it with the gear the game gave you. It's fine the final boss needs tactics. Take out the snipers first. Take out the healers first. Whatever. I should not be dying before I have a chance to do anything. Have the Veteran and Master modes for those who want it.

[robertthebard]

I said "offering help" not raging at someone. There is a difference. Helping someone and raging at them are opposites.

 

You could jump ship, but depending on your class, you could be waiting a long time for another pop. Just like real life, sometimes you have to grin and bear working with people you don't get along with. The wisdom is in knowing when to walk away and when to stick around.

 

If it's going to stress me out to the point where I come to the forums and claim they aren't playing by the game's rules, it's time to jump ship. I have tanks, healers and DPS, I'm sure that if I'm really wanting to play some group content, I can get in some groups. I've got NiM/MM experience on all three, so it's not a big deal. However, if I'm dead set on running on one particular toon, I'd do what I could to form my own group. If I'm in a guild, I'm starting there. Then I don't have to worry about it at all.

[lilathrone]

Put your companion to passive, that's what I do when doing story until kotfe.

[Hadsil]

I tried my Consular again in Spirit of Vengeance. Somehow I managed to get by the first Boss. Companion dead. I'm almost dead, but I beat him including several trips to the kolto tank. Giving the benefit of the doubt, this time I noticed the Boss open with a red light warning attack. I immediately moved. That's probably what killed me previously before I could do anything. I hadn't noticed the red light. Anyway I move on. Companion almost dies several times. He actually does die several times. I call him Useless now. I die twice. Since Companion dies easily on the second Boss I decided to put him on Heal. It goes better. It's still a tough fight and he dies anyway but not until the end when I can finish off the Boss. I decided to keep him on Heal for the rest of the adventure. Things go a bit easier. I still die once, but I'm able to reach the end.

 

Final Boss. same story. I die with the second wave, every time, all the time, no matter what I do. I try attacking the snipers first. I'm barely damaging one. Companion dies to the mob. Then I die. I attack the mob first. I do last more than 3 seconds, but I die anyway. Call it 5 seconds. Every time. All the time. No matter what I do.

 

I'm guessing you always have to fall into the pit trap. I managed to avoid it walking along the side of the room. When the enemies were in range I attacked them but they were taking no damage. Suddenly it was Poof! I'm dead, not counted above. I went into the pit the second time.

[TrixxieTriss]

I tried my Consular again in Spirit of Vengeance. Somehow I managed to get by the first Boss. Companion dead. I'm almost dead, but I beat him including several trips to the kolto tank. Giving the benefit of the doubt, this time I noticed the Boss open with a red light warning attack. I immediately moved. That's probably what killed me previously before I could do anything. I hadn't noticed the red light. Anyway I move on. Companion almost dies several times. He actually does die several times. I call him Useless now. I die twice. Since Companion dies easily on the second Boss I decided to put him on Heal. It goes better. It's still a tough fight and he dies anyway but not until the end when I can finish off the Boss. I decided to keep him on Heal for the rest of the adventure. Things go a bit easier. I still die once, but I'm able to reach the end.

 

Final Boss. same story. I die with the second wave, every time, all the time, no matter what I do. I try attacking the snipers first. I'm barely damaging one. Companion dies to the mob. Then I die. I attack the mob first. I do last more than 3 seconds, but I die anyway. Call it 5 seconds. Every time. All the time. No matter what I do.

 

I'm guessing you always have to fall into the pit trap. I managed to avoid it walking along the side of the room. When the enemies were in range I attacked them but they were taking no damage. Suddenly it was Poof! I'm dead, not counted above. I went into the pit the second time.

 

Dude, you should have had the comp on heals the whole time, Here we’re all thinking your troubles were skill or gear. When it was having your comp on the wrong setting. LOL.

 

Dps sage/Sorc can’t off heal their comps enough these days to warrant running them as tanks in anything but simple content. If you doubt what I’m saying, try having them tank other flash points or uprisings and you will see you can’t keep them alive.

Edited May 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Suzsi]

I tried my Consular again in Spirit of Vengeance. Somehow I managed to get by the first Boss. Companion dead. I'm almost dead, but I beat him including several trips to the kolto tank. Giving the benefit of the doubt, this time I noticed the Boss open with a red light warning attack. I immediately moved. That's probably what killed me previously before I could do anything. I hadn't noticed the red light. Anyway I move on. Companion almost dies several times. He actually does die several times. I call him Useless now. I die twice. Since Companion dies easily on the second Boss I decided to put him on Heal. It goes better. It's still a tough fight and he dies anyway but not until the end when I can finish off the Boss. I decided to keep him on Heal for the rest of the adventure. Things go a bit easier. I still die once, but I'm able to reach the end.

 

Final Boss. same story. I die with the second wave, every time, all the time, no matter what I do. I try attacking the snipers first. I'm barely damaging one. Companion dies to the mob. Then I die. I attack the mob first. I do last more than 3 seconds, but I die anyway. Call it 5 seconds. Every time. All the time. No matter what I do.

 

I'm guessing you always have to fall into the pit trap. I managed to avoid it walking along the side of the room. When the enemies were in range I attacked them but they were taking no damage. Suddenly it was Poof! I'm dead, not counted above. I went into the pit the second time.

 

The sniper on the left, kill it first. There's a boss healing/kolto tank you can stand on before your companion dies that will heal you both. It's the closest one to a sniper. There's also another one on the right side but its a little further away from the sniper however you may need to hit it too.

Failing that hit HEROIC MOMENT when the snipers spawn its a skill everyone has, needs to be activated with an alive companion. Lasts for a good minute or so but has a 5-min cooldown - its long enough to kill the snipers- it will keep you and comp both healed. After snipers are down the others are ez.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Suzsi

[johnyangelo]

Generally speaking this was brought up many times, but if you want to get closer to vanilla experience, dont buy any XP perks, get White acute mod during doubel xp event and use it outside of the event.

With that setting and no guild boost and no XP boost activated + white actue mod, while doing only class stories I got to Alderaan at level 26 or so and it was getting difficult as you fight mods that are 2 levels above you most of the time.

[xordevoreaux]

Bioware need to stop dumbing down the game for the lowest skilled players or they will keep driving other players away.

 

In saying that, I’m not suggesting there shouldn’t be a mechanism to allow lower skilled players a way to complete story content. There 100% should be.

 

Dumbed-down mechanics isn't driving players away, and you know it. If dumbed-down mechanics was truly problematic, we'd have the immediate (and it was immediate) mass exodus we saw in SWG after the overhaul to combat. What everyone's screaming about is the lack of new end-game content.

 

Bioware has to balance the attrition of existing players rage-quitting over their finicky distaste for one element of the game or another against attracting new players. New players, having to contend with a new interface, combat mechanics, everything going on, don't need artificial barriers to enjoyment like struggling with complicated combat mechanics or new and overwhelmingly boring slog fests because old timers on the forums are jaded with the game's existing framework.

Edited May 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[robertthebard]

Dumbed-down mechanics isn't driving players away, and you know it. If dumbed-down mechanics was truly problematic, we'd have the immediate mass exodus we saw in SWG after the overhaul to combat. What everyone's screaming about is the lack of new end-game content.

 

Bioware has to balance the attrition of existing players rage-quitting over their finicky distaste for one element of the game or another against attracting new players. New players, having to contend with a new interface, combat mechanics, everything going on, don't need artificial barriers to enjoyment like struggling with complicated combat mechanics or new and overwhelmingly boring slog fests because old timers on the forums are jaded with the game's existing framework.

 

Here's a rich one for you:

 

I'm not sure which MMO forum I posted this in, could be here though; but the game's not too easy. It's too easy for some of us. This is a distinction that needs to be made, and for some of us, even during the alleged hey day of difficulty, the game wasn't hard, or even challenging, for the stories.

[xordevoreaux]

Here's a rich one for you:

 

I'm not sure which MMO forum I posted this in, could be here though; but the game's not too easy. It's too easy for some of us. This is a distinction that needs to be made, and for some of us, even during the alleged hey day of difficulty, the game wasn't hard, or even challenging, for the stories.

 

I agree with that. Players are kvetching about their own sense of difficulty in the game without examining the broader picture involving everyone, subsequently projecting their experience as if it's everyone's experience, when it's not.

Edited May 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[robertthebard]

I agree with that. Players are kvetching about their own sense of difficulty in the game without examining the broader picture involving everyone, subsequently projecting their experience as if it's everyone's experience, when it's not.

 

Indeed. My confusion stems from reading this topic in ESO's forums, the GW 2 forums, as well as here, and we could redact the game name, and wouldn't be able to differentiate which game the posts came from, except for the .xxxx naming system on the GW 2 forums.

[LeoAugustina]

Your partner must always be healer

[TrixxieTriss]

Dumbed-down mechanics isn't driving players away, and you know it. If dumbed-down mechanics was truly problematic, we'd have the immediate (and it was immediate) mass exodus we saw in SWG after the overhaul to combat. What everyone's screaming about is the lack of new end-game content.

 

Bioware has to balance the attrition of existing players rage-quitting over their finicky distaste for one element of the game or another against attracting new players. New players, having to contend with a new interface, combat mechanics, everything going on, don't need artificial barriers to enjoyment like struggling with complicated combat mechanics or new and overwhelmingly boring slog fests because old timers on the forums are jaded with the game's existing framework.

 

Explain to me why they can’t cater to both? Why do some players have to go without?

Why does the game have to be too hard for some or too easy for others when there are mechanisms available to do both.

[xordevoreaux]

Explain to me why they can’t cater to both? Why do some players have to go without?

Why does the game have to be too hard for some or too easy for others when there are mechanisms available to do both.

 

They'd cater to both about as well as they simultaneously cater to PvE and PvP. Adjusting PvE breaks PvP and vice versa because they rely on the exact same stat and ability foundations.

 

That's not a red herring. Without a profoundly different approach between newbie-make-it-easy-for-me-please and mind-wrenchingly complicated / wildly insane mechanics for the pros, you'll wind up with both camps bellyaching that because A got this, B broke that, just like PvE and PvP.

 

Developing a two-track system, even if the devs ever got motivated to do so, has one profound pitfall, and it's all about human nature.

 

The greater the cliff of difficulty between newbie and pro, the harder to convert newbies into pros.

Newbies get comfortable with what's easy, then they hit the switch / slider / whatever to try pro mode, suddenly experience stupid-hard content, and say no way.

 

So over time, you'll get more newbies, fewer pros, and then there go the pros either rage-quitting or selfishly screaming on the forums to eliminate easy mode because not enough people are playing with them on hard mode.

 

Not a win-win situation.

Edited May 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[TrixxieTriss]

They'd cater to both about as well as they simultaneously cater to PvE and PvP. Adjusting PvE breaks PvP and vice versa because they rely on the exact same stat and ability foundations.

 

That's not a red herring. Without a profoundly different approach between newbie-make-it-easy-for-me-please and mind-wrenchingly complicated / wildly insane mechanics for the pros, you'll wind up with both camps bellyaching that because A got this, B broke that, just like PvE and PvP.

 

Developing a two-track system, even if the devs ever got motivated to do so, has one profound pitfall, and it's all about human nature.

 

The greater the cliff of difficulty between newbie and pro, the harder to convert newbies into pros.

Newbies get comfortable with what's easy, then they hit the switch / slider / whatever to try pro mode, suddenly experience stupid-hard content, and say no way.

 

So over time, you'll get more newbies, fewer pros, and then there go the pros either rage-quitting or selfishly screaming on the forums to eliminate easy mode because not enough people are playing with them on hard mode.

 

Not a win-win situation.

 

The answer is make the content challenging and add a second companion option that can make it an easy walk in the park for the lowest skill. Then it’s up to the players to decide their own difficulty.

Edited May 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[xordevoreaux]

The answer is make the content challenging and add a second companion option that can make it an easy walk in the park for the lowest skill. Then it’s up to the players to decide their own difficulty.

 

Unless the devs supply the flashpoint war bot available during story mode, any companion, even Shae Vizla, will die during whatever content the pros deem suitably challenging enough for them. It's like asking for open-world nightmare content everywhere, and oh, by the way newbie, by the way casual, good luck there palling around with T-7.

 

Then what? There the player is, dead companion at his feet and all alone to face content tuned to be challenging to pros. The newbie gets interrupted / damaged so fast that resurrecting the companion before the player dies himself isn't possible. The mob subsequently wipes the floor with the player, and then the player quits because it's too hard.

 

You can't rely on just the companion to solve the problem, and putting any newbie in a hard environment with the only means to compensate for that difficulty being external (such a companion) will result in failure. Then you're looking at stat bolstering newbies, who'll then get a very rude shock if they ever play anything but newbie / casual mode.

 

Any change the devs make in reaction to this thread will be hostile to both casuals and newbies.

Edited May 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[robertthebard]

The answer is make the content challenging and add a second companion option that can make it an easy walk in the park for the lowest skill. Then it’s up to the players to decide their own difficulty.

 

Some of the people posting here that it needs to be harder wouldn't be able to handle it. This isn't hyperbole, or a slight to anyone posting, it's observable behavior. I saw it myself in DDO: "We need a difficulty harder than Elite, the game's too easy". Fast forward a couple of years, and they got their higher difficulty, 10 levels of it, in fact, called Reaper Difficulty. Care to guess what happened? "It's stupid hard, and needs to be nerfed", and using their pet battle cry against "noobs" insisting they make Elite more solo friendly of "Play a lower difficulty" was anathema to them.

 

The real issue I had was that I predicted that just that would happen. Now, instead of working on new content, there's a team that has to constantly adjust Reaper, because it's "stupid hard". Mechanics already exist, so how are they going to increase the difficulty? Well, in DDO, they added debuffer and buffer mobs. Debuffers affected the players, and some of them have "instakill" mechanics, if you don't do what you're supposed to do. Buffers buff the other mobs in the quest. Not to mention degrees of "bullet sponge", and damage increases. Self healing nerfs, etc. etc. But that's "stupid hard", so what's left?

[TrixxieTriss]

Unless the devs supply the flashpoint war bot available during story mode, any companion, even Shae Vizla, will die during whatever content the pros deem suitably challenging enough for them. It's like asking for open-world nightmare content everywhere, and oh, by the way newbie, good luck there palling around with T-7.

 

Then what? There the player is, dead companion at his feet and all alone to face content tuned to be challenging to pros. The newbie gets interrupted / damaged so fast that resurrecting the companion before the player dies himself isn't possible. The mob subsequently wipes the floor with the player, and then the player quits because it's too hard.

 

Here I am trying to find a solution that can accommodate nearly everyone and all you seem to care about is accommodating the lowest skilled players at the expense of everyone else’s enjoyment.

Why does the game have to keep lowering its skill requirement to the absolute lowest denominator. That does not encourage people to try to get better, it just lowers everyone’s skills or people get bored and leave.

I’m not a dev or coder, but I would think that if they can add a bot droid for Revan and add Krovos for the latest content, then they can program the 2nd companion to not die if that’s what it really takes for some people to get through content.

Edited May 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[xordevoreaux]

Here I am trying to find a solution that can accommodate nearly everyone and all you seem to care about accommodating the lowest skilled players at the expense of everyone else’s enjoyment.

 

Obviously, there are plenty of people in this thread who'd just as soon --- for the sake of their own enjoyment --- see every newbie drop dead and quit and hand the game over to just the pros, because only the pros enjoying themselves count.

Edited May 3, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[TrixxieTriss]

Obviously, there are plenty of people in this thread who'd just as soon --- for the sake of their own enjoyment --- see every newbie drop dead and quit and hand the game over to just the pros, because only the pros enjoying themselves count.

 

Surely you realise by now that I am not one of those people.

[xordevoreaux]

Surely you realise by now that I am not one of those people.

Mark my words. Right here, right now. If the devs react to this thread by increasing difficulty, they will royally screw it up, the newbies and casuals will find themselves in a very not-fun situation, scream bloody murder and quit, and this game will subsequently get a reputation of having been overhauled to the point of being stupid-hard and tuned for just the elite players, and that will be that.

[TrixxieTriss]

Mark my words. Right here, right now. If the devs react to this thread by increasing difficulty, they will royally screw it up, the newbies and casuals will find themselves in a very not-fun situation, scream bloody murder and quit, and this game will subsequently get a reputation of having been overhauled to the point of being stupid-hard and tuned for just the elite players, and that will be that.

 

You miss my points. I’m not suggesting they increase current difficulties, I’m asking they stop nerfing content when some people find it too hard and return recent SOV nerfs back the way they were. But at the same time add in a 2nd companion for people to use it the need it.

 

Then moving forward, balance content around one companion being active. So if that content is too challenging, they can activate the second companion to help them get through.