The problem with Guardian is...

[Mallorik]

I play a 50 guardian and ive tanked hard mode ops and fp's, the only problem i have with guaridan is threat, especialy ae threat, its just pretty much non existant, you can hilt strike a mod and turn to another to build some threat and lose aggro immediatly even to heal aggro, i dont know if it is some broken aggro mechanics or just bad aggro on guaridans but i suspect its a little of both that is just much more noticable on a guardian.

[Idunhavaname]

I play a 50 guardian and ive tanked hard mode ops and fp's, the only problem i have with guaridan is threat, especialy ae threat, its just pretty much non existant, you can hilt strike a mod and turn to another to build some threat and lose aggro immediatly even to heal aggro, i dont know if it is some broken aggro mechanics or just bad aggro on guaridans but i suspect its a little of both that is just much more noticable on a guardian.

 

Yeah i've noticed it too. The thing is you have to constantly change targets to keep agro or tell DPS to focus fire. If DPS only focus fire and not go berserk on evreything, then only person you have to worry about losing agro to is the healer.

 

Also, if you CC mobs far from your distance then you really don't have to worry about agro.

[Mallorik]

Yeah i've noticed it too. The thing is you have to constantly change targets to keep agro or tell DPS to focus fire. If DPS only focus fire and not go berserk on evreything, then only person you have to worry about losing agro to is the healer.

 

Also, if you CC mobs far from your distance then you really don't have to worry about agro.

 

Yeah and in ops it doesnt seem that bad. Hard mode fp's seem to be alot worse, that is where ive noticed losing aggro to healers on mobs i should not be losing aggro with, that is the main reason i suspect some kind of broken aggro mechanic.

 

And yes i understand using cc but that doesnt change the fact that aggro does not work well. but it could be the way they intend it, i know that Bioware seems obsessed with making bosses drop aggro on tanks so you have to retaunt all the time because 80% of hardmode fp bosses use some form of that mechanic.

[AleksHoaas]

Another person who thinks they know everything about a class they havn't even gotten to max level yet. Guardian is weak right now compared to other classes. The other tanks do the job better. The other dps do the job better. Practically everyone else, except maybe Sentinels, solo quest better.

 

And you're another know-it-all, by reading what you're writing here. I'm currently playing a Jedi Guardian using the Vigilance Skill Tree, and I thrive in PvP. I do loads of damage, and is for the most, very high up on both the damage and kill list. I can also survive pretty well on my own, against both 1v1 and 2v1. Guardians aren't weak at all... I don't even understand why people keep saying this... I love playing as a Jedi Guardian DPS!

[vekkth]

l2p... really sorry but thats the truth...

i have played a Jedi up to 29 in beta ..

i have played recently a trooper to 50

 

and started yesterday a new Jedi Guardian, and im wrecking face ...

my Vanguard feels squishy compared to my Jedi

 

all pugs:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/444/screenshot2011123023594.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/716/screenshot2011123019301.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/141/screenshot2011123018481.jpg/

 

topping damage/kills/medals vs lvl 40-50 imps /Bhs / Sorcs + republic mirrors

without any cc... just 1 cd, 5 attacks, 1 leap, 1 snare, 1 aoe

 

considering what you get with lvl 50... i just start rolling eyes when i see this QQ posts

 

your numbers proves nothing. running an aoe bomb spec and doing nothing then damage can sometimes bring the results like yours, but the fact you did screenshotted them already speaks volumes for me - 160k damage on a 29 toon is _nothing_ if played properly. my 14 lvl commando can do that.

and really your "l2p" comment makes me laugh. as much as "my vanguard feels squishy" one.

[Pwnzie]

So, ok, Guardians come here and tell you the class is perfect because they got to top dps/medals in a warzone, OK, you guys are good and we suck, it's become routine now, we know.

 

 

...as others pointed out already, that doesnt mean anything, absolutely nothing. Please get out of your Guardian fan little box and see what other classes can do and how, if that doesnt highlight the class numerous problems, well, lost cause. Actually at tanking we aint bad and we sure look cool, except we gotta keep spamming every cd we got cause for god knows why we keep losing aggro to anything.

 

 

edit:

Anyone can go mid in a Alderan civil war zone with all Imps that keep coming in group, how could anyone not be in the top 3s after just spamming anything you got? It really doesnt prove anything, pvp is situational, it isnt pve, its doing the right thing at the right time that matters...you can as well be the bottom of the list and be the best in there.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pwnzie

[Elaithe]

I get some of the complaints about PvP (get them don't necessarily agree with them) but what I DON'T get is the complaints about soloing. Like I don't get it, do some people just have downs? I easily solo everything including heroic 2+ (not including heroic 4+). After level 30 the incredible amount of CC you have (lol force push, force stasis, hilt strike) and the ridic damage Kira puts out I have 0 issues.

[russmanOR]

And you're another know-it-all, by reading what you're writing here. I'm currently playing a Jedi Guardian using the Vigilance Skill Tree, and I thrive in PvP. I do loads of damage, and is for the most, very high up on both the damage and kill list. I can also survive pretty well on my own, against both 1v1 and 2v1. Guardians aren't weak at all... I don't even understand why people keep saying this... I love playing as a Jedi Guardian DPS!

 

I did not say one thing about PvP in my post, Guardian feels fine in pvp. I said Tanking, Solo questing, and dps. Reading is hard I know but you could at least try it.

[Ryouga]

I did not say one thing about PvP in my post, Guardian feels fine in pvp. I said Tanking, Solo questing, and dps. Reading is hard I know but you could at least try it.

 

Solo questing? Really dude... you have to be joking, dont know at 40's but this far Im in 38 and I find ultra easy to level as a guardian tank and no single champion miniboss have given me any problem while doing my class quests.

[NeonLights]

Just because you topped the charts in a warzone, doesn't mean there aren't flaws in the class. For one, with support from your team you can do a tremendous amount of damage. If you have a pocket healer you'll stay alive longer so you'll be doing more damage.

 

The biggest issue with the Guardian (and Sentinels) is the lack of gap closers. You have one leap in most specs and two if you go down Focus. Leap is on a 15 second cooldown. The problem is that in many 1v1 fights, a Knight can barely stay in range long enough to deal significant amounts of damage. Many other classes have a knockback and 2-3 stuns against your one gap closer. Even if you burn your CC breaker, even with Resolve, ranged classes still have an easy time kiting the Guardian.

 

Can a skilled Guardian overcome the shortcomings of the class? Absolutely. When people come in here saying they're doing fine on their Guardian I believe them because I've seen similar results first hand. However when a skilled Guardian player meets a skilled Powertech, Merc, Sorc, Assassin or Operative it's a very tough fight for the Guardian.

 

In my opinion the Guardian needs either one of two things:

 

1. Increased survivability. Sages and Sorcs get an AoE knockback (which can have an added root), an absorb shield, two stuns, a slow and possibly more CC I'm forgetting about. Commandos and Mercs get a knockback, roots, a stun and a slow. Most classes have plenty of ways to keep any Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior from staying close for too long. There should be better defense against this much CC.
   
2. More damage. Since most of the other classes have so much CC at their disposal to keep Knights and Warriors away, make their damage worth something. Make them scary enough that if those players don't use any of those abilities they are in big trouble.
   

 

If Guardians/Juggs got both the class would be stupid OP. But if you really think about it, it's a really tough balancing act to follow. If you give too much power to this class it could really become a wrecking ball with too much support.

 

One thing I'll never understand is that at one point in testing Guardians and Juggernauts used to be the OP class. Stasis and Choke was 6 seconds instead of 3, Overhead Slash/Impale were base class abilities and they had Force Pull. These classes used to be really mean but then they got nerfed. What really gets me is that they took away Force Pull because apparently the class had too many gap closers. Then they go ahead and give the Vanguard/Powertech a charge AND a pull. It's not even a melee class and it has more gap closers!

 

A Guardian/Juggernaut revamp is coming. We just need to be patient and hopefully the changes will be worth waiting for. I can tell you I've been waiting for this since the class got nerfed way back in the summer.

[texoc]

your numbers proves nothing. running an aoe bomb spec and doing nothing then damage can sometimes bring the results like yours, but the fact you did screenshotted them already speaks volumes for me - 160k damage on a 29 toon is _nothing_ if played properly. my 14 lvl commando can do that.

and really your "l2p" comment makes me laugh. as much as "my vanguard feels squishy" one.

 

where did i run a aoe bomb spec??? xDD

 

2 of the screen are level 12 and 13

 

and the other 1 is a level 29 with 19 points into focus, just enough to get singularity, still without the +30% on sweep and only stasis to trigger it every 50 seconds ...

you can hardly say this is an effective aoe bomb, nor a effective build at this level

besides it was also 160k on a lvl 12 "toon"...

 

Just trying to proof that the damage is the same as any other class ... even without all the tools they get later.

Meele Bonus Damage is way higher then ranged, but the fact that you cant stay in meele range isnt a fault of the class, you have enough tools to stick like glue on your enemies.

You have a leap and perma aoe snare, PERMA AOE SNARE!!!!, when you get knocked back you just jump in again. What do expect to have??? 3 CCs ?? Im laughing at those who need CC to kill, especially the idiots that fight you 4vs1 and still need to chain all their CCs.

 

and yeah vanguard feels squishy compared to my Jedi, and tanking in terms of surviving is the best as Guardian, and so far i dont have much issue with the guardian tanking, i dont care loosing aggro far a few seconds and 1 or 2 shots hitting a team mate, i just return my aggro... np so far

 

Ff your healer gets OOM as a Vanguard there isnt much you can do.... you have 1 single defensive cooldown, which provides only 25% dmg reduction, you simply get mowed down

 

As Guardian Tank you are nearly invincible when you pop your defensive cooldowns...

providing long lasting breaks for the healer and time.

 

 

Fact is, the Guardian (+ mirror) is the class that needs the most skill to be effective with.

Comparing with my Trooper im kinda bored when a swap back from Guardian.

 

Even the skills you use and have to use are way more numerous on the Guardian then on any other class.

 

Just imagine you are focus in Soresu:

 

Skills at lvl 50 you constantly use:

 

- Force Leap

- Zealous Leap

- Guardian Leap

- Force Sweep

- Force Stasis

- Force Exhaustian

- Strike

- Slash

- Master Strike

- Sundering Strike

- Force Push

- Force Kick

- Saber Throw

- Dispatch

- Awe

- Guard

- Challenging Call

- Taunt

- Freezing Force

- Blade Storm

 

and all this while you have to keep an eye on your bar if you have enough focus, while managing to stick on your enemy, while you have to be aware which direction you face, otherwise your attack wont go off, watching (for mentioned spec) if you have your stacked singularity and trying to position well for a aoe bomb, while watching all your mates to guard them and with this taunt enemies, while watching to not get burned down, and using all the attack and uttility skills from above and messing arround with the ****ed up targeting system...

 

dont tell me you expect to get into the warzone an start rolling if you havent pvped with the class for weeks (months).

 

great comparing with a commando, that has 8 skills rotating, doesnt have to build up AP, and has 30 meter range, which a Jedi has to close in to deal damage.

You dont even have to bother about your positioning neither if your realy face your enemy, you just tab and shoot. And while donig this you can still rotate with your Cam and look for peops to heal...

 

play this class to 50, stick with it, train with it, and you will see its potential...

if you dont than you picked the wrong class and you should probably try a less challenging and easy to play class like trooper/smuggler

 

complaining that they suck, just because you cant go in like a smuggler and dish out 200k dmg is nonsense.

There are enough peops who are able to unleash the hell upon their enemies and im rather 1 of 10 Jedis on my server able to do this then 1 of 1000 who picked the easy way by playing a ranged class for easy unchallenging ego killing show.

[The_Badger]

Played Shaman elemental for 3 years on WoW and i am doing good with my dps guardian.

 

Playing a melee class is not that bad after all.

[vekkth]

where did i run a aoe bomb spec??? xDD

 

2 of the screen are level 12 and 13

 

wall of text

 

dude, again. you are missing the point. i see that you somehow got an idea that you have "learned" the class, got some "impressive" screenshots and it actually a) puts you above most of the players b) proves anything.

 

in fact, its not. there are people who are able to pull the same numbers around, individual result is not an issue. what is really happening that you mistake learning curve with so called skill cap. Jedi Knights have much harder learning curve, its true, you have to invest more of your attention to how do you play to excel. but what you are trying to imply that it proves the class has higher skill cap - means more skilled players benefit from it. its not like that, in fact, it is exactly what i was trying to tell you. If you put the same amount of time learning and mastering in another class, you will get better results - because learning curve is lower, but skill cap is the same.

 

I think most of those who play competitively long enough know that. Its just funny to see a person like you pretends he is smarter and more experienced then those. Do you really think that your revelation is actually adequate? What makes you so much sure about it?

[Murkyone]

Played Shaman elemental for 3 years on WoW and i am doing good with my dps guardian.

 

Playing a melee class is not that bad after all.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the basis of this discussion.

 

Do you people not know how to read?

[Drakks]

Coming up on 48 (and 42 pvp) -- I can tell you this: guardians really blossom later as they start getting the actual tools they need. That beind said, there are also a few actual areas of concern that currently make guardians a little confusing:

 

1. The defense tree is lacking in the upper teirs. Not just lacking, but bad. There is nothing in terms of defense in the upper tree that you actually need, or makes sense to take over a heavy Vig spec + our defensive form. Hell, the 20% damage mitigation and CC immunity on leap, in the lower mid vig tree, is arguably better than anything defense offers.

 

2. The order in which guardians receive skills appears pretty random, which some very helpful skills coming in VERY late and others with very odd mechanics:

 

- Why is dispatch at 46? This should be a level 12-14 skill, that scales as you level.

- Why is our best damage move channeled?

- Why is saber throw received so late, and then on a 30 second CD?

 

Guardians are literally beheld to artificing for damage or defense, up until their skills better flesh out in the later levels.

 

3. I've said this a million times -- but ranged v. melee. Applying damage as ranged means standing in one place and switch targets that cannot kite you. Applying damage as melee means hopping all over the place like a rabbit with ADD, and blow constant focus on snares or pushes/pulls.

 

Also: In pvp our interrupt stops current casting, but does not cause a 4 second lockout on the skill -- which makes stopping healers interesting at best in pvp.

[warkat]

there is no way in hell you are even in the top 5 if playing with a group of battlemaster rank players..troopers/commandos/gunslingers usually 450k+ guardians usually 150kplus.

[Pwnzie]

1. The defense tree is lacking in the upper teirs. Not just lacking, but bad. There is nothing in terms of defense in the upper tree that you actually need, or makes sense to take over a heavy Vig spec + our defensive form. Hell, the 20% damage mitigation and CC immunity on leap, in the lower mid vig tree, is arguably better than anything defense offers.

 

2. The order in which guardians receive skills appears pretty random, which some very helpful skills coming in VERY late and others with very odd mechanics:

 

- Why is dispatch at 46? This should be a level 12-14 skill, that scales as you level.

- Why is our best damage move channeled?

- Why is saber throw received so late, and then on a 30 second CD?

 

Guardians are literally beheld to artificing for damage or defense, up until their skills better flesh out in the later levels.

 

3. I've said this a million times -- but ranged v. melee. Applying damage as ranged means standing in one place and switch targets that cannot kite you. Applying damage as melee means hopping all over the place like a rabbit with ADD, and blow constant focus on snares or pushes/pulls.

 

Also: In pvp our interrupt stops current casting, but does not cause a 4 second lockout on the skill -- which makes stopping healers interesting at best in pvp.

 

^ that

 

and all that stuff that only works on normal trash is pointless (short stuns), normal mobs barely do any damage and do not matter, its higher ranks that need some kinda of holding back or they ****. Ofc that includes other players in pvp. You waste a focus point on a interrupt and what for? Half a moment later they will recast it and be done with it, nothing lost for them, but for us it's a loss of precious focus and a GCD of important DPS gone for nothing. Bioware really needs to look into this stuff imho.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pwnzie

[Highfives]

Main defensive abilities have short times and long cool downs, quite a few defense tree abilities don't give us a bonus they try to cancel out flaws like Soresu focus penalty, having high health with limited damage means nothing for defense because enemies will just chew through it.

 

Guardian defense spec is seriously flawed, it's obvious, it's so obvious I am wondering why I am explaining it to you.

[vekkth]

better check this out

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375981_304736029565111_232394066799308_835114_2101833954_n.jpg

 

Its Taugrim on a lvl 29 tactical specced vanguard. Yes he has a personal healer and a lvl 15 vanguard in his team, but i would seriously chew my own shoe if you could produce similar results with lvl 29 guardian, w/e specced with w/e amount of healers/teammates. it is virtually impossible to dish out that much damage. Note a effing 15 lvl vanguard from his team named Frizz or something did 110! k damage. It does not surprise me, again, as i've said, my 14 lvl commando can go over 150 while also getting around 25-30k healed (with exactly 1 healing spell available), but still its impressive.

 

Also in comments on this facebook entry with a screenshot Taugrim sais that since beta he repeatedly stated that JK/SW are underpowered and need tweaking.

[Idockdudes]

I have had issues keeping up with some other tanks in DPS as a def spec guardian. I think it just has to do with how the other tanks work. The Trooper/BH can do RDPS and tank and Sin/Shadows probably have more burst abilities because of what type of DPS tree they have.

 

I was surprised by the differences between the Shadows exectue ability and the guardians. I think its just the nature of what role the guardian fills. You can do just fine on a guardian, but a trooper might do way more damage and a shadow might hit much harder. As far as protection I dont think guardians are at a disadvantage to anyone.

 

There is also a niche roll guardians fill. I dont think there is another AC better than a guard/jug at being the ball carrier in huttball. Shadows/Sins maybe with the sprint, but I think guardian leap is better. I guess its situational.

[texoc]

better check this out

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375981_304736029565111_232394066799308_835114_2101833954_n.jpg

 

Its Taugrim on a lvl 29 tactical specced vanguard. Yes he has a personal healer and a lvl 15 vanguard in his team, but i would seriously chew my own shoe if you could produce similar results with lvl 29 guardian, w/e specced with w/e amount of healers/teammates. it is virtually impossible to dish out that much damage. Note a effing 15 lvl vanguard from his team named Frizz or something did 110! k damage. It does not surprise me, again, as i've said, my 14 lvl commando can go over 150 while also getting around 25-30k healed (with exactly 1 healing spell available), but still its impressive.

 

Also in comments on this facebook entry with a screenshot Taugrim sais that since beta he repeatedly stated that JK/SW are underpowered and need tweaking.

 

as i posted previously...

 

http://imageshack.us/f/444/screenshot2011123023594.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/716/screenshot2011123019301.jpg/

 

its possible to reach 150k with low level (12-13) Guardian as it is possible to reach it with every other class in the game

 

but still true, a lvl 29 Guardian wont dish out the same damage...

but also every class does 100% better if thrown together with a personal healer

 

but ive seen myself Juggernauts/ Guardians (lvl 50) getting 400k damage...while protting the **** out of your own team...

[Drakks]

better check this out

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375981_304736029565111_232394066799308_835114_2101833954_n.jpg

 

Its Taugrim on a lvl 29 tactical specced vanguard. Yes he has a personal healer and a lvl 15 vanguard in his team, but i would seriously chew my own shoe if you could produce similar results with lvl 29 guardian, w/e specced with w/e amount of healers/teammates. it is virtually impossible to dish out that much damage. Note a effing 15 lvl vanguard from his team named Frizz or something did 110! k damage. It does not surprise me, again, as i've said, my 14 lvl commando can go over 150 while also getting around 25-30k healed (with exactly 1 healing spell available), but still its impressive.

 

Also in comments on this facebook entry with a screenshot Taugrim sais that since beta he repeatedly stated that JK/SW are underpowered and need tweaking.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but you can do that much damage as a lvl 29 guardian under the same circumstances. You just need to be heavier in Vig than Shield - and have to play smart.

 

Now, it certainly wouldn't be as EASY for you -- which is the major difference.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Drakks

[vekkth]

I don't mean to sound rude, but you can do that much damage as a lvl 29 guardian under the same circumstances. You just need to be heavier in Vig than Shield - and have to play smart.

 

Now, it certainly wouldn't be as EASY for you -- which is the major difference.

 

post a picture of you doing this, i post a video on youtube of me eating a whole lemon without sugar.

 

challenge accepted?

[vekkth]

as i posted previously...

 

http://imageshack.us/f/444/screenshot2011123023594.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/716/screenshot2011123019301.jpg/

 

its possible to reach 150k with low level (12-13) Guardian as it is possible to reach it with every other class in the game

 

but still true, a lvl 29 Guardian wont dish out the same damage...

but also every class does 100% better if thrown together with a personal healer

 

but ive seen myself Juggernauts/ Guardians (lvl 50) getting 400k damage...while protting the **** out of your own team...

 

well you also know what a proper vanguard is capable of at level 50 then. dude i dont doubt you as an aspiring pvp player (tho i really think you lack of experience in general), but really, please agree upon this short statement - jedi knight = harder learning curve without higher skill cap. at the very least it is so, i would really say that compared to other classes we terribly scale with level - we are too weak early at early levels just because we do not have enough tools at our disposal.

 

i agree that better player will struggle with JG less then average one, mind you, i still play mine and do not plan to reroll. but ignoring the obvious is not the way to go, i think - JK/SW needs changes, more then any other class right now.

[texoc]

well you also know what a proper vanguard is capable of at level 50 then. dude i dont doubt you as an aspiring pvp player (tho i really think you lack of experience in general), but really, please agree upon this short statement - jedi knight = harder learning curve without higher skill cap. at the very least it is so, i would really say that compared to other classes we terribly scale with level - we are too weak early at early levels just because we do not have enough tools at our disposal.

 

i agree that better player will struggle with JG less then average one, mind you, i still play mine and do not plan to reroll. but ignoring the obvious is not the way to go, i think - JK/SW needs changes, more then any other class right now.

 

sure i give you that point...

 

and yeah i know what a 50 vanguard can do, same as a equally geared/skilled/ experienced JG/SJ