'MMO' does NOT mean boring lengthy endgame grindfest

[Umbral]

everquest was not a major cash cow. if it was, we would be playing everquest instead of wow.

 

lolol

 

Yes, the phrase Evercrack entered the pop culture lexicon back in the day because Everquest wasn't making money.....

[Enako]

lolol

 

Yes, the phrase Evercrack entered the pop culture lexicon back in the day because Everquest wasn't making money.....

 

i think you are either discussing without spending 2 seconds on an argument you read, or, rather young of age.

 

therefore, i will refrain from replying to you from this post on, due to the below :

 

'making money' and 'making money to feed a megacorporation' are two different things. there are hundreds of games making money. lets see - one could say that second life is making more money compared to its size than wow. however, its profits would not satisfy the shareholders of a megacorporation like vivendi.

 

if everquest's profits were enough in size, we would be playing everquest. they werent, apparently, so there is vivendi, there is wow, and the ads in tv in which you see 'james kirk' are ones that pimp shamans in wow, not a class in everquest.

 

.............

 

still thank you for your participation in the discussion up till this point.

[Swift]

the problem is, the 5% minority blizzard had identified in their 'percentage of accounts which have seen endgame content' statistic, is VERY vocal. while the rest 95% rarely post in a mmo's forum, you will find that 5% endlessly and incessantly repeating the same thing, eventually making themselves believe that noone else out of their own outlook may be playing a game.

 

Yeah, so even before the Looking For Raid went in with its associated easy mode, the number of active accounts that had seen end game content was much higher than 5%.

 

Just sayin.

 

 

Yes, the phrase Evercrack entered the pop culture lexicon back in the day because Everquest wasn't making money.....

 

Evercrack entered pop culture lexicon due to its addictiveness, not because it did or did not make money

Edited December 30, 2011 by Swift

[Vindor]

similar question was asked, and discussed beforehand. please refer to those earlier posts. if you want to go into detail, bring forth the detailed part.

 

I guess your answer is nothing, a sandbox. And you are talking about a minority asking for "gear grindfest"

 

Just lmao

[Nidien]

Excuse me? The game was not "fine" at all. The game was losing 10 000 subscribers a month before the changes came, and there was absolutely no indication that bleeding was going to stop. At that rate, SoE was looking at having less than 100 000 subs within 6 or 7 months, and STILL no indication that the bleeding would stop there.

 

When the changes were made, it wasn't everyone that was up in arms. That's what so many nowadays seem to forget. Fully half of the game's subscribers were very happy changes were finally being made. Unfortunately when the other half caused such a ruckus and then rage quite, that fact was lost. Then faced with a game that seemed very empty, more left, and as they say, the rest is history. Unfortunately it's history that gets twisted a lot these days.

 

We must of been playing 2 different games, or it's the fact that not everyone's opinion on the game is the same. I'm glad you know the sub numbers on a monthly basis for SWG, but some people dont' stat track the servers every morning over breakfast or check the forums or if they do check the forums they don't voice their opinion. So in all actuality you have no idea what the majority of the community was saying as neither do I or why each person decided to leave. All I know is, up until the CU patch everything on my server was going just fine, tons of people, tons of fun, then blamo...empty.

 

Same thing goes for DAOC when they released the TOA expansion and the new frontiers. Blamo, leaving in droves.

 

Why would people beg Sony for servers with the old rule set before the CU if the CU wasn't the problem. Why would people beg Mythic for servers with the old rule sets before TOA and the old frontiers if it wasn't the problem?

 

Not to mention..stat track the WoW servers...as they've lost million+ in a very short period of time so that game must have something severely wrong with it and people should automatically jump ship even if they are having fun, because it's not about that..it's about how many people are on a server.

 

Other than that, if your having fun, play the game and stop worrying about all the needless ********. If your not having fun, go play something else. If your not having fun with any MMO because the only MMO people have played is WoW and expect a washed out, dumbed down game, then go back to WoW or realize the MMO genre isn't for you.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Nidien

[Sparklehorse]

So you choose to argue over the semantics of the word "endgame" because every other argument you have posted has literally ZERO merit.

 

If you don't think your post is a "everybody should play the way I think they should" post then there is no hope for you whatsoever.

 

Just stop. You brought nothing new to the table. You posted the same crap we have all read hundreds of times in other threads. You can put lipstick on that pig but it's still a pig.

 

This thread is no different than any of the others that came before it where somebody thinks they can develop a game better than the actual people that...you know...develop it. You know the people whose livelyhoods are directly tied to the success of the game.

 

So sit there in your chair and develop this magical game that doesn't exist. Lambast others for their preferred playstyle and then waste everybodies time trying to redefine "endgame."

 

This thread belongs within the other tons of useless threads that try and segment the community. there was no need for it and it will do nothing but cause arguments and discontent. I suspect this was the goal all along considering you haven't offered one single legitimate idea of how to change things in a positive way.

[Perfik]

And rpg are originally pen and paper level and gear grindfest enrobed in irl roleplay.

 

 

calling PnP RPGs level and gear grindfest proves without doubt that you are clueless.

 

PnP RPG is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from level and item grind unless your GM isnt' making anything to play a PnP RPG

[Enako]

We must of been playing 2 different games, or it's the fact that not everyone's opinion on the game is the same. I'm glad you know the sub numbers on a monthly basis for SWG, but some people dont' stat track the servers every morning over breakfast or check the forums or if they do check the forums they don't voice their opinion. So in all actuality you have no idea what the majority of the community was saying as neither do I or why each person decided to leave. All I know is, up until the CU patch everything on my server was going just fine, tons of people, tons of fun, then blamo...empty.

 

Same thing goes for DAOC when they released the TOA expansion and the new frontiers. Blamo, leaving in droves.

 

until those wow-clone changes, my server is so crowded that there was not a place to put a new player city. leave aside the fact that central hubs were filled with hundreds of people, even in dantooine on eclipse.

 

it actually irritated me - MANY people who you know to be real people dotting the entire horizon with their purple/blue name tags and breaking immersion.

 

there would be 5 to 40 people waiting in buff queue in front of 3-4 doctors sitting on the ground and giving buff service at any given time. still they were in short demand.

 

So you choose to argue over the semantics of the word "endgame" because every other argument you have posted has literally ZERO merit.

 

If you don't think your post is a "everybody should play the way I think they should" post then there is no hope for you whatsoever.

 

Just stop.

 

yes. okay.

 

just because your opinion as such, i am just conceding my playstyle and accepting that all games should be endgame grindfests. and, because you think my argument has 'zero merit'.

 

..................

 

not.

 

...............

 

see, things like this irritate 90% of player population out of forums - you gave a very good example of hardcore progressive minority excluding everyone else from the game for their gameplay - you perceive little value in what i find entertaining and fun - and therefore proceed to decide that they have no value in a game.

 

that is exclusive - not inclusive. and it is wrong.

 

you may not be able to see 'anything valid' other than 'endgame grindfest' for a mmo. but, many other people, do. the fact that you do not enjoy the same things with them, does not make what they take pleasure from, less valid. or yours, more valid.

[Perfik]

So you choose to argue over the semantics of the word "endgame" because every other argument you have posted has literally ZERO merit.

 

If you don't think your post is a "everybody should play the way I think they should" post then there is no hope for you whatsoever.

 

Just stop. You brought nothing new to the table. You posted the same crap we have all read hundreds of times in other threads. You can put lipstick on that pig but it's still a pig.

 

This thread is no different than any of the others that came before it where somebody thinks they can develop a game better than the actual people that...you know...develop it. You know the people whose livelyhoods are directly tied to the success of the game.

 

So sit there in your chair and develop this magical game that doesn't exist. Lambast others for their preferred playstyle and then waste everybodies time trying to redefine "endgame."

 

This thread belongs within the other tons of useless threads that try and segment the community. there was no need for it and it will do nothing but cause arguments and discontent. I suspect this was the goal all along considering you haven't offered one single legitimate idea of how to change things in a positive way.

 

did you actually read the OP?

 

seriously lol

[Enako]

did you actually read the OP?

 

seriously lol

 

he didnt probably. especially the yellow bolded words.

 

 

.............

 

in any case i need to leave this discussion due to work. thanks to all who participated - i may the discussion up again later.

[Umbral]

please provide the statistics and the timeline. with references.

 

surely the game was losing subscribers - since they were already mashing/changing a lot of things and due to the myriad of bugs that existed.

Just in a few minutes, and because, you know I WAS actually there and in the middle of it so I remember where to find things, and I'm not just spouting theory off the top of my head as fact, and because I'm not going to waste too much of my time on it. Here is a quote from SWG's lead developer at the time the changes were implemented. This is him being retrospective later.

 

So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.

 

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it successful. Not the 200k

subs it had, but really successful. The idea was that we had the most

valuable IP in the entire world, and we ##### it up to the point of

having 200k subs.

 

And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the

scheme of things.

I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That’s a long time.

 

I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system. I wrote

the combat model for JTL, implemented all of the development tools and

ship interior systems and more.

 

Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we

launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2

weeks to do it.

 

I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the

missteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people

wanted from a Star Wars game.

 

So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to re-imagine the game.

 

Not just small changes, but rebuild it.

 

And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.

 

If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000

subs a month.

Note – I think our subs were closer to 160-180 than 200k. It was a bad financial situation no matter how you look at it.

It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn’t.

 

Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to

conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.

 

It’s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the

positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel.

Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from

110k to 220k.

 

But I digress.....

 

I won't link it because I had to clean up some language to post that, but the blog this comes from is not hard to find. The gentleman's last name is Rubenfield.

[Vindor]

calling PnP RPGs level and gear grindfest proves without doubt that you are clueless.

 

PnP RPG is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from level and item grind unless your GM isnt' making anything to play a PnP RPG

 

Yeah yeah sure i am clueless and you are a morron, how is this going ?

 

Most pnp were heavily based on leveling and gearing your alter ego through the mean of a story, first online rpg were the same thing and EQ just put graphics on all of it.

 

Thats how it is, you had fun playing theatre with your leet story telling ? i guess you were one of those guys disguizing like an elf ?

 

Most of the pnp fanbase was in it for the addiction that character progression is, like most of EQ players were and WoW etc.

 

Have fun trying to change the world and welcome on my ignore list

Edited December 30, 2011 by Vindor

[bboudreaux]

It does mean massively multiplayer, which in my experience grouping and leveling and even in PvP has not been delivering on the massive aspect.

 

 

 

MMO - "massively multiplayer online" mean ONLY that a bunch of people are playing the same game at the same time online, it does't mean grouping and it doesn't mean raiding ( although you have those options)

 

People, please stop trying to read more into than what's actually there.

[danatharia]

I was a "raider" throughout all of Wrath of the Lich King. I raided between 2 and 4 times a week, and about 3 hours on every occasion.

 

I had alot of fun with the people I played with, that's for sure. But in many ways that time is time wasted, and not wasted because I could have done things "in the real world", but because I could have done more amusing things than wipe endlessly on the same boss because the same chumps made the same mistakes, over and over. Raiding is a frustrating endeavour, sure it is rewarding in a way once you kill the boss, but what's next after that? The carrot is just placed on another stick, further ahead, and you trudge onwards to the next boss and the grindfest it becomes.

 

People often complain about Asian MMORPGs being grindfests. Guess what? The western model isn't free of the grind either, it just looks different. SWTOR tries the great thing of providing content that isn't per definition grindy, dialogue ins't grindy and it improves the grind that is in the game - the somewhat mundane quests - by giving them context. Guild Wars 2 will do the same thing by turning everything into massive world events.

Edited December 30, 2011 by danatharia

[HelluvaJedi]

MMO - "massively multiplayer online" mean ONLY that a bunch of people are playing the same game at the same time online, it does't mean grouping and it doesn't mean raiding ( although you have those options)

 

People, please stop trying to read more into than what's actually there.

 

What does it matter what it's called, or what it's supposed to "mean"? I posted this before and nobody noticed, but you're just focusing on a strict definition to de-legitimize the complaints that some have.

 

Grouping and raiding are obviously facets of the genre which Bioware has chosen to include in a big way in SWTOR. If people feel like they can do them better then you should talk about why that is or is not the case, not pretend that Bioware is just doing us a favor by including things which aren't explicitly listed in the MMORPG acronym.

[Templeman]

I am not really sure what the rest of you are talking about but I know what I want in a MMO.

 

1: Community

2: Story

3: Looking cool

4: Investment in what is happening in the game.

 

I want to feel like I am working with others to help shape a world. Otherwise I will just go play Skyrim. I don't mind grinding if it gives me an edge or something else I want, but it has to be something I really want. just making the numbers go up has never done it for me.

 

I Intend to make it to end game in SWTOR with my Sith and do each flashpoint and operation ONE time... maybe more if I feel like it. Then I expect to put away my Sith and roll a Trooper. Some time in there I expect to see a preview of some blind demon Jedi shouting at me that "I am not prepared" and I am going to go dust off my Sith and see what this mofo wants.

 

In the end I am easy to please, but I will drop this game in a heartbeat when I stop having fun. With games like Skyrim and BF3 I have no wish or need to grind just for grindings sake.

[Astasia]

I read the first half the responses and skimmed over the second half and I'm very surprised nobody else has mentioned this (unless I missed it), the current state of endgame grinding and gear based progression is the result of games being designed for casual players. What WoW did and the reason it succeeded so well in this genre is it made a tremendously casual game from start to finish.

 

Before WoW getting to the level cap was in itself a huge accomplishment in many games, it took months if not years of play, and many people just never got there. Once they did hit the cap the content was basically fighting ridiculously hard enemies with week long respawn timers, it was half-assed and not taken very seriously because the actual "game" was intended to be everything before cap. Once you hit the cap you were pretty much done, you were at the end and there wasn't really any further progression or content, at least until the cap was raised. For a casual player starting a game like that was daunting, especially after a few expansions where the idea of getting to the level cap seemed impossible.

 

WoW came out and offered a MMO where players could get to the end in under 200 hours. Casuals felt like they could actually get there and flocked to the game. Once it was apparent everyone was getting to the cap Blizzard sort of tricked them into the same sort of grind MMOs used to have, but instead of it being level based it was gear based and this progress was made by fighting through shorter dungeons or session based raiding which could be done in a few hours a night (rather than camping a spawn for weeks).

 

SWTOR has already been designed for that style of gameplay. People have been hitting the level cap in 100-120 hours. This is extremely casual, and a slow gear progression grind is going to be required to keep players subscribed. This grind is not just for hardcore players, it's for anyone that feels like they need to stick with a single character. The hardcore players are the ones that will always complain about content though and demand more because they blitz through it in a matter of days or hours.

 

I'm not saying I support it, I don't. I'm old school, I'd rather be playing a game where a year from now I still might not be at the cap. I like level based progression, and mid-level communities and exp grind teams. It's however too late for SWTOR, they went casual, which means "boring lengthy endgame grindfest." Which I will avoid like the plague like I did in WoW and just keep making alts. Luckily the class stories hugely support this, and I am thoroughly enjoying going through each story and seeing the sidequests through each class's perspective.

[HavenAE]

It does mean massively multiplayer, which in my experience grouping and leveling and even in PvP has not been delivering on the massive aspect.

 

As compared to what?

 

 

Social interaction in this game is in all honesty no different than in WoW, Rift, AoC, DDO, ect and so forth and so on. But at certain angles it's actually better.

 

Now in older MMOs we were often FORCED to group to advance, but these days with the solo-friendly content (that WE as a community asked for I might add) the Multiplayer aspect is up to YOU entirely.

 

This game allows you to group whenever, however with whoever you want. In fact it takes social interaction a step further and gives you ranks, so people who want to group and want to be social and a part of the community can earn them and gain access to items from vendors.

 

Also from what I understand you also get bonus exp for helping people complete their quests, what other MMO does that? Most will essentially punish you for grouping by taking MOB exp and cutting it into part of how many people are in the group, and that's that. SWTOR does this too but makes up for it in a sense.

 

In short, SWTOR does more to promote grouping than any other MMO on the market right now.

 

they aren't going to force you to group, that's your decision as it should be. If you're anti-social and can't make friends, or don't want to help others out and be helped in return, how is that Bioware's fault?

 

So if you don't feel the Multiplayer aspect, that's more YOUR fault than anyone elses.

Edited December 30, 2011 by HavenAE

[HavenAE]

MMO - "massively multiplayer online" mean ONLY that a bunch of people are playing the same game at the same time online, it does't mean grouping and it doesn't mean raiding ( although you have those options)

 

People, please stop trying to read more into than what's actually there.

 

It's implied by what people normally expect from an MMO. You group with others you interact, ect..

 

But in nearly every single MMO on the planet the choice to group and be sociable is entirely up to you, the player. If someone wants to run off solo and do their own thing? fine, but then they shouldn't turn around and cry and complain about how they aren't playing with anyone.

 

Doesn't matter who it is, Blizzard, Trion, Funcom, Bioware, ect... they only provide the medium to allow you to play with others. YOU have to take that step and actually do it.

 

In terms of other topics here...

 

 

A game can be about the journey AND about endgame. It doesn't have to be one or the other. So far TOR looks to be both. It has an amazing journey, AND endgame content with more on the way.

Edited December 30, 2011 by HavenAE

[Sparklehorse]

he didnt probably. especially the yellow bolded words.

 

 

.............

 

in any case i need to leave this discussion due to work. thanks to all who participated - i may the discussion up again later.

 

He did, especially the bolded part. If you can't see this is a raiders think they are better than soloers thread in disguise it's not my fault.

[Msbungle]

 

notice that its not that i dont respect these people, their perspective, or their particular gameplay preference. i do. but, the problem is, these people think and demand that ONLY their perspective and preference is valid, and every game should be changed to suit their taste, and everyone oblige by their taste. and there can be no objections.

 

 

I think what it comes down to is that most people have played one particular MMO that fits your description of what an MMO is "not". Because of this they think they are all that way. It is not that they are demanding that everyone else see it their way as much as they have little experience in other MMO's. This lack of experience translates to a lack of vision of what things can be or what they are in other areas.

 

So it is basically a self-righteous form of naivity more than anything.

[TheSwamper]

Another point I've not seen mentioned is from the developer's point of view.

 

Whatever else makes for a good endgame MMO to the players, it has to do the following for the developers:

 

Provide a way to keep people interested and playing while sloooooooooooooowly further improving their character.

 

I honestly think this is part of the problem people have with endgame design, even if it's at a subconscious level. When leveling up to 50, the pace can be fairly quick. But once you get there, the pace must slow down a lot.

 

So, however you decide to make your endgame, the primary goal is keep people playing. EVERYTHING else you add to your design is secondary to that, by quite a bit. Sure they want us to have fun, but they are running a business and businesses either make money or fold.

[Kookus]

Hey, no worries, apparently Bioware/EA agree with that theory, and are prepared to go down swinging that theory hard.

 

Get back with me when they actually start going down. Currently, this is one of the largest and most successful MMO launches in history. We won't have subscription metrics until at least Jan. 20, so do us all a favor and quit talking out of your bum.

[jarala]

MMO = Game Developers utilize methods devised by devious professionals to dupe people into playing, just like video poker. Sony and Blizzard have hired teams of psychologists to devise methods to keep players stimulated, but in a controlled, very slow methodical way. Rewards system lets just call it, to keep people paying 15 bucks a month for really very sporadic new content at best. So it becomes a massive sandbag game to slow players down and somehow simultaneously keep them "rewarded" with virtual achievement and/or stuff they can park by the bank to feel special.

 

But really your getting like what should be about lets be generous and say 300 hours of good content (that is what I got out of Skyrim and I played the crap out of it). But because of all the little gimmicks ... like slowing you down on PVP, travel, heroic areas, how vendors are organized, and the million an one other little tricks they use ... you end up spending 2000 hours. Meanwhile your on the clock and they are wracking up those monthly fees.

 

That is the MMO model ... rant ... flame ... fanboy it up ... but at the end of the day that is the MMO model. Tricking you into wasting more time on this game than you should so you spend hundreds of dollars. Probably more importantly your giving them the money and your probably not playing many other games so their competition isn't getting anything are they. In all honesty with an MMO "Casual play" is really a joke you can't play MMOs casually and really have enough fun to warrant playing them over stand alone games. If your going to play an MMO casually just go play a regular game. Other players are going to mock you and ridicule you and the game itself is going to taunt you and try to rope you into addictive hardcore play. That is how they are designed. The bottom line is being good at MMOs = butt in chair time.

 

 

So far ToR is exactly what WoW was only with the star wars licensed content ... WITH ... a Knights of the Old Republic sequel and a vintage 1990s style space shoot'em-up game.

 

Can these guys make this game decent enough to just keep people from going ... meh ... I dinged 50 and I don't really know that many people here so I'm going back to WoW? That will be the question. I quit WoW years ago for all the things that I'm seeing in this game in spades.

 

Don't get me wrong MMOs are great for some people who really have no other choice for entertainment and Ill be the first to say an MMO is probably as more productive than just watching TV ... I'm not saying all gaming is the devil. There are many people out there with just horrible schedules and really limited entertainment options and MMOs can be a great fit for them. If you have a rough work schedule, I have friends on graveyard and they struggle to find fun acvities that work around their odd schedules. Couples who are apart distance wise, family members who live apart, etc. MMOs can be great. For anyone else ... if we keep putting up with this crap ... we'll keep getting it. Stop playing WoW and stop paying for games like this for years on end ... get out of the basement (and I speak from experience, I've had some dark days on MMOs of huge swaths of wasted life ... and I'm done ... long done with doing that).

 

This game has done two things well IMO: Companions and the addition of at least some choice. The amazing choice that was touted at E3 and Comicon is just no here IMO. We see A or B, A or B, A or B ... choice over and over. Clearly alot more than WoW but not realy choice yet. A step in the right direction but I'm tired of waiting for good games because the gaming industry is working on the Hollywood model now. They are doing licensed products and games that would have been good five years ago. We get no innovation. More Call of Duty 99, Madden 378 and licensed re-skinned WoW like this. I loved Skyrim and even that ... I kept going ... wow this would have been amazing five years ago.

 

I think the WoW phenomena has single handedly stunted the growth of at least a segment of the video game industry. We are getting games that would have been great in 2005 over and over and over. Big fat Wal-Mart style companies like EA ... all they can do is Borg-ize other companies and steal successful mechanics from other companies. No one can expect anything other than games like this from EA. It isn't their fault its our fault as consumers ... slaves and tools of the system.

 

I had high hopes that this game (very naive and stupid I know) would have enough different features to it to make it interesting. It doesn't. I'll play a character up to 50 and then Delete all the characters (so I'm not tempted to play again later) and uninstall. Unless somehow Bioware drops a whole new game sometime between now and Feb. We all know that isn't going to happen.

 

So good news fanboys one less cynical player who is tired of the same old same old in MMOs and video games in general ... maybe enough of us will leave that you can feel good and smug about your decision to be tools to the system.

 

All video games are less and less worth playing. I know this will get ranted/flamed down by the fanboys ... so no point in reading any responses. Ya I know ... I"m the tool ... my mamma ... yada yada yada ... know the drill.

Edited December 30, 2011 by jarala

[SnoggyMack]

Google Search Everquest, Alternate Advancement. That'll give you a keen look at MMO progression.