Small Yield Invasion Target for Swoop Gang Mayhem?

[casirabit]

Yes they did.

 

Figures and thanks Trixxie. It actually shows that BW doesn't really care about small guilds but I already knew that which is why I play less than I use to. My boyfriend barely plays anymore and the other guild members the same.

Edited July 30, 2020 by casirabit

[Jdast]

What vexes me is the following...

 

Before we get what vexes me, let's stipulate that most people reading my priceless prose (at least in this thread) have a broad sense what industry I'm in. Suffice it to say, it is not software programming or anything remotely related to anything technical, much less computerish (is that a word?).

 

Other events have more than one planetary objective / yield. I simply don't understand how hard it would have been to add a small planetary yield to this week w/o changing the yields for the intended designated Swoop planets. Other events have offered options, including this one for two large planetary yields.

 

What am I missing?

 

Dasty

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jdast

[Darev]

What vexes me is the following...

 

Before we get what vexes me, let's stipulate that most people reading my priceless prose (at least in this thread) have a broad sense what industry I'm in. Suffice it to say, it is not software programming or anything remotely related to anything technical, much less computerish (is that a word?).

 

Other events have more than one planetary objective / yield. I simply don't understand how hard it would have been to add a small planetary yield to this week w/o changing the yields for the intended designated Swoop planets. Other events have offered options, including this one for two large planetary yields.

 

What am I missing?

 

Dasty

 

Only thing you missed is what they missed.

Someone recognizing the missing small planet invasion option.

Someone realizing that it's even a problem in the first place.

Someone implementing that simple solution you mentioned.

 

All three could have even been the same someone.

[TrixxieTriss]

Only thing you missed is what they missed.

Someone recognizing the missing small planet invasion option.

Someone realizing that it's even a problem in the first place.

Someone implementing that simple solution you mentioned.

 

All three could have even been the same someone.

 

It’s sad this wasn’t a priority, but putting a 15min deserter buff on reg pvp was

[Tsillah]

What exactly do you think bioware has done that caters to smaller guilds?

small yields.

Plus: 'Niche behaviour'? There is no reason to assume that players in small guilds, and don't treat conquest like a 2nd job, are a minority, let alone a 'niche' group.

As I explained earlier, it takes 4 people no more than 5 hours a week and that's taking it easy. It can be done in half that time. That's not a second job. The niche behaviour, if you had actually read my comments properly, is referring to PEOPLE HAVING MANY GUILDS. That's a a choice I feel BioWare doesn't need to take into account but if they want to I'm cool with that too.

Just to be clear: I don't have a stake in this, since none of my guilds ever go for the small yield target. I do, however, think your attempt to belittle players who want a small yield target is rude and arrogant.

Again, if you'd read my comments properly, you'd know that I don't mind there being a small yield at all, but I do find the complaints about this a matter of overreaction and entitlement.

Conquest weeks normally have 3 yield targets to go for, and players had every reason to expect swoop week to be the same.

That's not an actual argument. SM Ops are of an easy difficulty as well and yet Gods for example is not of the same difficulty in SM. I get the expectation but then hardly anything in this game is consistent and things change in MMOs all the time. Where were you when 5.0 and 6.0 took progression raiding away? Where were you when PvP gear was taken away? Expectations are there but the reality is that things do change.

[Tsillah]

Agreed. That poster really is being arrogant.

The funny thing is that I feel the complainers are being arrogant by being entitled. I may be direct but don't confuse that with arrogant. As I said I don't have a problem with BW putting in small yields but really I don't feel that BW needs to change this back if they don't want to. That's my view on it and we can agree to disagree. It's just an opinion after all.

[TrixxieTriss]

The funny thing is that I feel the complainers are being arrogant by being entitled. I may be direct but don't confuse that with arrogant. As I said I don't have a problem with BW putting in small yields but really I don't feel that BW needs to change this back if they don't want to. That's my view on it and we can agree to disagree. It's just an opinion after all.

 

Then Bioware should just man up and say it instead of saying they were going to change it. And they should have been ahead of the story and actually announced that was the plan before they originally released the event.

 

I think we all suspect the reason it’s the way it is. It’s because they forgot to make sure there was a small yield for the event. I would even go as far as say they didn’t realise until the week they launched it live and that’s why they didn’t announce it because they knew people would rightly be pissed at them. And we know bioware, they don’t like to announce bad news before it happens, they stay as silent as possible for as long as possible and hope it’s not going to cause too much hate.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[DarkAnnmarie]

You have many guilds but that's a choice. You have to divide your attention and your time the way you see fit but this is like the issue of people who have 100+ characters for example and the issues that brings. You represent an extreme as far as I'm concerned.

 

And let's be honest here...it's just a few weeks a year where this happens. At some point you've got to accept that perhaps this is your choice and you can notch this up as the consequences of your choices. At some point you can graciously accept that for however many weeks in a year this event is on, that's the consequence and perhaps then you can do a bit more effort or decide to let go.

 

BioWare has accommodated your niche behaviour enough as far as I'm concerned. Now do mind, it doesn't mean I'm against them accommodating you, but to be honest, I think they've gone out of their way already.

 

So because I play differently then you, I should be punished, because it's not how you play, it's niche? That's a hell of a lot of arrogance on your part. It's suppose to be inclusive for everyone, no matter what. Do you realise how many small guilds there are out there? Because that's what it's about. Smalls guilds being ignored, and forced to work more than large guilds, people in small guilds being forced to work harder to get the same rewards.

 

The funny thing is that I feel the complainers are being arrogant by being entitled. I may be direct but don't confuse that with arrogant.

 

No, it's pure arrogance and ignorance, just because you have the time to spend in game, and don't run small guilds, or even care how events effect them, doesn't mean others don't.

Edited July 30, 2020 by DarkAnnmarie

[Tsillah]

So because I play differently then you, I should be punished, because it's not how you play, it's niche? That's a hell of a lot of arrogance on your part. It's suppose to be inclusive for everyone, no matter what. Do you realise how many small guilds there are out there? Because that's what it's about. Smalls guilds being ignored, and forced to work more than large guilds, people in small guilds being forced to work harder to get the same rewards.

small guilds are not my issue and I REPEATEDLY explained how it can be very easy and not time consuming at all for small guilds to make the 2 million points target so really as long as you keep ignoring that I keep insisting on it. You are wrong to think it takes a lot of time for small guilds. You may however not know how to do this quickly. But for 4 people to play 30 mins to an hour a day at most to get those points I do not feel is too much.

 

How about you tell me why that is too much rather than dancing around my argument?

 

In the end the niche I'm talking about, again, is people who have many small guilds apparently. Those I call niche, NOT people who are in a small guild.

No, it's pure arrogance and ignorance, just because you have the time to spend in game, and don't run small guilds, or even care how events effect them, doesn't mean others don't.

No it's not. The ignorance is with you.

 

As I stated it takes less than an hour a day. I can probably do it in 30 mins since the CZ dailies for example only take me 20 mins to do.

 

And I still say over and over again that I don't mind having a small yield at all also here, but I find the complaint entitled until someone tells me WHY specifically 30-60 mins a day for 5 days a week for 4 players is too much.

 

So please humour me and tell me why that is and if it makes sense I'll agree.

[DarkAnnmarie]

small guilds are not my issue and I REPEATEDLY explained how it can be very easy and not time consuming at all for small guilds to make the 2 million points target so really as long as you keep ignoring that I keep insisting on it. You are wrong to think it takes a lot of time for small guilds. You may however not know how to do this quickly. But for 4 people to play 30 mins to an hour a day at most to get those points I do not feel is too much.

 

How about you tell me why that is too much rather than dancing around my argument?

 

In the end the niche I'm talking about, again, is people who have many small guilds apparently. Those I call niche, NOT people who are in a small guild.

No it's not. The ignorance is with you.

 

As I stated it takes less than an hour a day. I can probably do it in 30 mins since the CZ dailies for example only take me 20 mins to do.

 

And I still say over and over again that I don't mind having a small yield at all also here, but I find the complaint entitled until someone tells me WHY specifically 30-60 mins a day for 5 days a week for 4 players is too much.

 

So please humour me and tell me why that is and if it makes sense I'll agree.

 

An hour a day (or less) for one char, ONE, that's the issue, it takes more time to get the 2 mill than it does 500, people have to decide which guild gets what, wether they can run other stuff they enjoy, purely so they can just do CQ As I've pointed out, some people have more time on their hands to do that, others don't. I'm sure it's great to be you, that you can spend an hour on each char and get cq, ingore other things, etc, etc. But not everyone has that luxury, some people have limited time on the game, they become stuck between helping the guild, or playing content they like, Unfortunately lately there has be a slew of spoilt children that come on these forums and use the excuse "I can do it, so why can't you" argument. The difference, not everyone here is a child who can spend all day gaming, some people have to pick and choose whaat they can do, and while having a small yield planet doesn't make a damn difference to you, it does to them. And here's the other issue, with people like that, because it doesn't effect them, they come here mouthing off mocking others, because the issue effects them.

Edited July 30, 2020 by DarkAnnmarie

[Tsillah]

An hour a day (or less) for one char, ONE, that's the issue, it takes more time to get the 2 mill than it does 500, people have to decide which guild gets what, wether they can run other stuff they enjoy, purely so they can just do CQ As I've pointed out, some people have more time on their hands to do that, others don't. I'm sure it's great to be you, that you can spend an hour on each char and get cq, ingore other things, etc, etc. But not everyone has that luxury, some people have limited time on the game, they become stuck between helping the guild, or playing content they like, Unfortunately lately there has be a slew of spoilt children that come on these forums and use the excuse "I can do it, so why can't you" argument. The difference, not everyone here is a child who can spend all day gaming, some people have to pick and choose whaat they can do, and while having a small yield planet doesn't make a damn difference to you, it does to them. And here's the other issue, with people like that, because it doesn't effect them, they come here mouthing off mocking others, because the issue effects them.

I've done the math. It's 4 players x 5 days x 30-60 minutes. That's what it takes to get to 2 million. It is indeed more than 500K but I don't see the issue for a small guild to have 4 members doing this on ONE character for 30-60 mins each day.

 

As for mocking others, that is your interpretation not mine. Perhaps you are triggered by words like niche or outliers which are the exceptions if you will. If you prefer the word exceptions then so be it, but to me there is no difference between them.

 

I have called people entitled because they seem to want to do the least amount of effort and I believe that the effort involved is NOT too much. You say it is apparently but where do you draw the line? It's literally 4 members or 4 characters playing 30-60 minutes a day and doing that for 5 days out of a week.

 

These are my criteria if you're interested:

I say 4 members because that's what it takes to start a guild so that's a fair amount.

I say 5 days because the weeklies shouldn't take 7 days and for example the PvP weeklies which are 20 matches (or less when you win) and then the dailies are 4 points towards that, ergo 5 days.

I say 30-60 minutes because I do not believe it should take more than an hour.

 

What's unreasonable about that and where do you set the limit before it becomes too much?

 

I get that it affects other people more than I, but at some point I get the feeling people just want the rewards for showing up. So where's the line you draw? Not in points but in time spent in the game and how many members should participate before you can reach a GUILD target. So where is that line for you?

[ceryxp]

I am reminded of the words of the Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller. It is fine if something does not affect you, but ignoring something because it does not affect you will put you on Niemöller's path. Otherwise, who will speak up for you when BW decides that your preferred activity is an outlier, that you are a niche group, not worthy of consideration or representation.

[Tsillah]

I am reminded of the words of the Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller. It is fine if something does not affect you, but ignoring something because it does not affect you will put you on Niemöller's path. Otherwise, who will speak up for you when BW decides that your preferred activity is an outlier, that you are a niche group, not worthy of consideration or representation.

All I'm asking is why the 2 million mark is too much for small guilds. I've called people who have MANY guilds niche because they choose to go beyond what most people do and that's a choice you can make but it may be with consequences.

 

I'm not saying BioWare shouldn't care about these, but the complaints sound hollow to me because NOBODY is giving specifics and reasons why it's too much work other than "it's too much work". When I ask why I get no answer.

 

So feel free to join the people who misrepresent what I say but you clearly have not understood me or read my posts properly if this is what your answer is to me.

 

EDIT: Incidentally I've already had the occasion various times that the way I play was not considered interesting enough by BW. It's part of life and when complaints come I look for reasonable arguments. Maybe they are here on this topic but I've yet to see them.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Tsillah

[Jdast]

All I'm asking is why the 2 million mark is too much for small guilds. I've called people who have MANY guilds niche because they choose to go beyond what most people do and that's a choice you can make but it may be with consequences.

 

I'm not saying BioWare shouldn't care about these, but the complaints sound hollow to me because NOBODY is giving specifics and reasons why it's too much work other than "it's too much work". When I ask why I get no answer.

 

So feel free to join the people who misrepresent what I say but you clearly have not understood me or read my posts properly if this is what your answer is to me.

 

EDIT: Incidentally I've already had the occasion various times that the way I play was not considered interesting enough by BW. It's part of life and when complaints come I look for reasonable arguments. Maybe they are here on this topic but I've yet to see them.

 

Tsillah,

 

It has been explained to you before. You keep citing the math and the 2 million point goal, which is not the only lens through which you should view the situation. I'll try one last time b/c frankly my target audience isn't you, but Bioware -- and I'm pretty certain they are aware of this thread.

 

The Constant: In every Conquest week, players in Large and Medium-sized Guilds do not have to alter their play style. Players can play what they want - comfortable in the knowledge that the guild is going to achieve the planetary yield.

 

The Variable: On this particular Conquest week, I can achieve the medium planetary yield only by altering my play style and engaging in activities I do not necessarily enjoy, depending no my mood. I have to map / plan out what I do and make sure I log in pretty much every day of the week. I prefer not to have going through my head at night - oh dang, I didn't log in and get my give Treek a Treat points.

 

You can argue that automaticity in getting the guild rewards reflects a sense of entitlement, but players in Large and Medium-size Guilds already have that dynamic in play - every event. And, understandably, they get larger rewards.

 

Bottom line: It's hardly a game-breaker, but I am only dabbling with a couple alts this week and probably a couple guild FP runs b/c that's a better way to gear and we enjoy do doing so. But I know my guild will not achieve the 2 million mark b/c we're not going to do activities we don't like and we won't push it. Hence the reason we regularly only reach the 1 to 1.2 million mark on our Rep / Imp guilds, respectively, each week.

 

And, I'm not quitting / unsubbing but it's annoying, particularly since I agree with Darev about the manifestation of the issue. But, again, simply put - you keep looking at the number 2 million when you should also view the issue of how / manner in which those points are achieved.

 

Dasty

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jdast

[perotta]

Small yield is included in every conquest except this one. Players are entitled to have the same yield system this week as every other week. No, it does not matter that "it's only for a few weeks a year!". No, it does not matter that "well, you could just play more!". No, it does not matter that "well, you should not have many guilds!". It is not on players to accommodate Bioware's ineptitude.

 

Having a small guild is not niche. Having several small guilds is not niche either. Players with more guilds already have to work more to reach the targets on each guild. They still have to work towards these targets - and get smaller rewards accordingly. They know it perfectly well. The system, when working normally, does not "cater" to them. It is not a flaw, it's design. It simply allows for different playstyles and gives them different rewards. And being in several small guilds is a perfectly valid playstyle.

 

Now, these players have to work significantly more for no other reason than "well, devs kinda forgot". These players were not taking advantage of some flaw in the system. They are fully entitled to point out how their perfectly valid playstyle is disadvantaged by this new event and Bioware's lack of thought.

[Tsillah]

Tsillah,

 

It has been explained to you before. You keep citing the math and the 2 million point goal, which is not the only lens through which you should view the situation. I'll try one last time b/c frankly my target audience isn't you, but Bioware -- and I'm pretty certain they are aware of this thread.

 

The Constant: In every Conquest week, players in Large and Medium-sized Guilds do not have to alter their play style. Players can play what they want - comfortable in the knowledge that the guild is going to achieve the planetary yield.

 

The Variable: On this particular Conquest week, I can achieve the medium planetary yield only by altering my play style and engaging in activities I do not enjoy. I have to map / plan out what I do and make sure I log in pretty much every day of the week. I prefer not to have going through my head at night - oh dang, I didn't log in and get my give Treek a Treat points.

 

You can argue that automaticity in getting the guild rewards reflects a sense of entitlement, but players in Large and Medium-size Guilds already have that dynamic in play - every event. And, understandably, they get larger rewards.

 

Bottom line: It's hardly a game-breaker, but I am only dabbling with a couple alts this week. I know my guild will not achieve the 2 million mark b/c we're not going to do activities we don't like. Hence the reason we regularly only reach the 1 to 1.2 million mark on our Rep / Imp guilds, respectively, each week.

 

And, I'm not quitting / unsubbing but it's annoying, particularly since I agree with Darev about the manifestation of the issue. But, again, simply put - you keep looking at the number 2 million when you should also view the issue of how / manner in which those points are achieved.

 

Dasty

 

Dasty

 

But then the argument is not about small guilds but playstyle. I'm in a small guild on the rep side and we do just fine with conquest.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Tsillah

[Jdast]

But then the argument is not about small guilds but playstyle. I'm in a small guild on the rep side and we do just fine with conquest.

 

Well, they are inextricably linked for this week. Two members of my guild are married with kids in the 6-10 range.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they would be annoyed if I called them up and said, "ZOMG! Why haven't you logged in today? Go get you Stronghold / Amp / Give Treek a Treat Points!"

 

I agree with you that it's not a huge issue, hence the reason I call it an annoyance. But it's a very, very easy fix - one that does more good than harm, even if the good is minimal.

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Your first reply to my post was better.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jdast

[Tsillah]

Well, they are inextricably linked for this week. Two members of my guild are married with kids in the 6-10 range.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they would be annoyed if I called them up and said, "ZOMG! Why haven't you logged in today? Go get you Stronghold / Amp / Give Treek a Treat Points!"

 

I agree with you that it's not a huge issue, hence the reason I call it an annoyance. But it's a very, very easy fix - one that does more good than harm, even if the good is minimal.

 

Dasty

Well the thing is this...I'm in a small guild on the rep side and we do fine on medium. So it's really more about the playstyle than small guilds cause when motivated it can be easily done. Of course when in combination with a small guild the impact of that is bigger... and that's fair comment. But it isn't because a guild is small that it's problematic, it's the playstyle that is key here.

P.S. Your first reply to my post was better.

Yeah but I thought I was repeating myself and I came to the realization that the playstyle thing was actually key.

[DarkAnnmarie]

Well the thing is this...I'm in a small guild on the rep side and we do fine on medium. So it's really more about the playstyle than small guilds cause when motivated it can be easily done. Of course when in combination with a small guild the impact of that is bigger... and that's fair comment. But it isn't because a guild is small that it's problematic, it's the playstyle that is key here.

 

Yeah but I thought I was repeating myself and I came to the realization that the playstyle thing was actually key.

 

Well, they are inextricably linked for this week. Two members of my guild are married with kids in the 6-10 range.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they would be annoyed if I called them up and said, "ZOMG! Why haven't you logged in today? Go get you Stronghold / Amp / Give Treek a Treat Points!"

 

 

 

 

From Dasty's example, if I want my small guild to get CQ, I have to message all (10 people for example) and say, well normally your guys do 50k each week, but for this week, I need 200k from you...oh and this guild is more important thaat bob's guild, so do it here first, and if you don't have time, forget aabout doing stuff you like, do everything thaat is CQ related....

Would this be ok with you? Should they have to do it? Instead of them doing the CQ for 4 guilds, getting their 4 rewards, and getting 4 F/S plans that can help four guilds towards completing the flagship, they can only do one.

I'm glad you have the time, to do that, but not everyone has that option.

That's what it's about, small guilds being shafted, people having to change plans, three guilds losing out to one.

Edited July 30, 2020 by DarkAnnmarie

[ceryxp]

All I'm asking is why the 2 million mark is too much for small guilds. I've called people who have MANY guilds niche because they choose to go beyond what most people do and that's a choice you can make but it may be with consequences.

 

I'm not saying BioWare shouldn't care about these, but the complaints sound hollow to me because NOBODY is giving specifics and reasons why it's too much work other than "it's too much work". When I ask why I get no answer.

 

So feel free to join the people who misrepresent what I say but you clearly have not understood me or read my posts properly if this is what your answer is to me.

 

EDIT: Incidentally I've already had the occasion various times that the way I play was not considered interesting enough by BW. It's part of life and when complaints come I look for reasonable arguments. Maybe they are here on this topic but I've yet to see them.

 

The question has been answered multiple times. Just because you do not like the answer, or do not agree with it, does not mean that the answer has not been given. Further, it is not on us to justify to you the reason why.

[TrixxieTriss]

Figures and thanks Trixxie. It actually shows that BW doesn't really care about small guilds but I already knew that which is why I play less than I use to. My boyfriend barely plays anymore and the other guild members the same.

 

Same. My wife and I have been having a hiatus since they ran this event last.

First because of how they did it the first time and then all the bugs, especially the crafting one that put mine back to 600.

Now they have made a deserter debuff in pvp too and a change in how we achieve the missions.

I think I’ve logged in 3-4 times this month and each has been a bad time. Makes you not even want to bother logging into the game anymore.

At least Marvel Avengers is out on beta 14th Aug and then Star Wars Squadrons will be out in October. If either of those catch our interest, I think we’ll finally be done with swtor.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[Lhancelot]

From Dasty's example, if I want my small guild to get CQ, I have to message all (10 people for example) and say, well normally your guys do 50k each week, but for this week, I need 200k from you...oh and this guild is more important thaat bob's guild, so do it here first, and if you don't have time, forget aabout doing stuff you like, do everything thaat is CQ related....

Would this be ok with you? Should they have to do it? Instead of them doing the CQ for 4 guilds, getting their 4 rewards, and getting 4 F/S plans that can help four guilds towards completing the flagship, they can only do one.

I'm glad you have the time, to do that, but not everyone has that option.

That's what it's about, small guilds being shafted, people having to change plans, three guilds losing out to one.

 

I hate how we have to run our characters through this belt-fed, conveyor-belt driven conquest system, though. basically we have our toons on the shelf, and we pull them down run a pattern of conquest objectives, then log out.

 

This doesn't really satisfy me, and so when conquest became more of this type of system where you had to keep track of what toons did what, etc., and then also when we are encouraged to have a large stable of toons that we just log in, grab the quest and get it updated then rinse repeat on a new toon until we get tired of this, well, this sucks for me.

 

I can't play like that. Glad that so many seem to find conquest fulfilling now, but for me it has only served to push me away more over time.

 

I liked conquest far better when there were zero restrictions per toon and small guilds were actually competing better in conquest than they do now, which is funny because the changes with 5.0 were stated as being made to increase the participation of smaller guilds in conquest. Oh, the irony.

[Lhancelot]

Same. My wife and I have been having a hiatus since they ran this event last.

First because of how they did it the first time and then all the bugs, especially the crafting one that put mine back to 600.

Now they have made a deserter debuff in pvp too and a change in how we achieve the missions.

I think I’ve logged in 3-4 times this month and each has been a bad time. Makes you not even want to bother logging into the game anymore.

At least Marvel Avengers is out on beta 14th Aug and then Star Wars Squadrons will be out in October. If either of those catch our interest, I think we’ll finally be done with swtor.

 

Is this Marvel game a MMO?

[TrixxieTriss]

Is this Marvel game a MMO?

 

You know, I’m not actually sure, but you can play co-op

[Tsillah]

From Dasty's example, if I want my small guild to get CQ, I have to message all (10 people for example) and say, well normally your guys do 50k each week, but for this week, I need 200k from you...oh and this guild is more important thaat bob's guild, so do it here first, and if you don't have time, forget aabout doing stuff you like, do everything thaat is CQ related....

Would this be ok with you? Should they have to do it? Instead of them doing the CQ for 4 guilds, getting their 4 rewards, and getting 4 F/S plans that can help four guilds towards completing the flagship, they can only do one.

I'm glad you have the time, to do that, but not everyone has that option.

That's what it's about, small guilds being shafted, people having to change plans, three guilds losing out to one.

Thanks for this clear example. I'm starting to see the why now. It's not so much about small guilds per se, but rather how you play in combination with being a small guild which exacerbates the situation. The focus shouldn't be on the guild being small, because other small guilds do manage just fine, but rather the playstyle. I'm not sure if there are many people like you and that's why BioWare might not consider it a big enough issue but at least Dasty explained it better. For the future I would really suggest calling it what it is because it's not about guilds being small that makes it hard for you guys but rather how (and when) you play the game. I find that a fair argument but I got distracted because you argued small guilds had these issues but only certain types of small guilds do because of other reasons and those reasons are certainly fair enough.