6.0 Crafting is Ludicrously a complete and total piece of Junk

[DarthBama]

As I posted on the first page, I was mildly annoyed at the effort that has to go into throw away gear. I posted this before I realized there were 3 levels of components and each level requires the previous level. Now I’m really hacked off! I’ve been churning stuff out since the expansion, and have gotten nowhere! Not one crafted item that is usable.

[TrixxieTriss]

Crafting is now dead to me.

 

I’m unloading all my crafting mats on the GTN Ive been collecting. All 1000 of my refined isotopes are going cheap to get rid of them all.

Edited October 26, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Tarackian]

I just don't understand why entry level greens require isotopes.

 

Please, make it make sense.

 

End game schematics should require special materials, but now virtually everything does and it makes no sense at all. I'm someone who has made most of their credits by crafting and selling things and right now I can't do very much of that. The system as it is right now is functionally useless.

 

At least I can still sell old dyes modules.

[Goemoe]

Those isotopes currently drop in all single player flashpoints I played. Today I entered the Black Talon with a fresh lvl 13 Sith and got some (as well as lvl 11 crafting crates, which don't open) I don't believe if stuff is currently dropping which is not supposed to do, or if the system works as intended, so all flashpoints offer those isotopes. Edited October 24, 2019 by Goemoe

[Stellarcrusade]

The current state of crafting is an insult to players. Really crafting is dead. They do not even give you easy cheap things to get the number up from 600 for those completionists.

 

- Costs WAY too much credits for craft/gather trainer.

- No cheap ways to level up craft number.

- Materials SUPER expensive in jawa vendors. I would have said SUPER if they cost 10, but 200?????

- Things like war supplies require new components to build now? Slap in the face.

 

I see no way crafting is a part of this expansion at all anymore. If 5.x was "The death of alts". 6.x seems like "The death of crafting.".

 

The good news is, it would be VERY simple for them to fix, development time of like 4 hours. The bad news is, they probably do not realize the blunder here and so they wont do it.

FIX:

1.) Return all vendor prices for ALL vendors including jawa vendors to what it was before for all pre-expansion items.

2.) The new craft items should be 5-10 jawa junks.

3.) Cheap easy items to practice up the crafting number.

4.) Any pre-expansion crafted items should return to materials required PRE EXPANSION. War supplies should have the new requirements removed.

5.) Reduce costs for everything accross the board.

6.) Give us a crafting material exchange vendor with FAIR EXCHANGE RATE. Meaning, any pre-expansion crafting material can be exchanged for any other, or small stacks can be exchanged for the new materials.

 

 

Here is the reasoning, I mean, if we can assume the goal is to reduce the stockpiles of jawa junks and old crafting materials, and credits, then what they have done WILL NOT WORK TOWARDS THAT GOAL. Because really, say I have 5 million credits and 2000 purple jawa junks. Expansion comes out and I see that I can buy 1 green wrist for 200million credits and 70,000 jawa junks. I'm just going to leave my currency and stockpiles alone and find a different way to get the gear. Its that simple, the new system promotes NOT SPENDING and NOT CRAFTING.

 

This is what they can do to actually solve the problem:

Add conquest goals that are attractive to spend and use up old stockpiles. Make them so we simply HAVE to spend the old stuff, not giving us tiny amounts of conquest for super expensive amounts of materials like we have now. Something like 50,000 conquest for each 10 donated invasion forces, and 5000 for each war supply (under old war supply requirements, or 700,000 conquest if we keep the new requirements). After a year of people burning up all their old stockpiles you can remove the goals. Make us want to use the stockpiles in a way that we feel is really worth it, dont make us feel like we just got mugged.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Stellarcrusade

[DawnAskham]

Those isotopes currently drop in all single player flashpoints I played. Today I entered the Black Talon with a fresh lvl 13 Sith and got some (as well as lvl 11 crafting crates, which don't open) I don't believe if stuff is currently dropping which is not supposed to do, or if the system works as intended, so all flashpoints offer those isotopes.

 

Still not enough to justify the materials costs for throw away green leveling / skill leveling gear.

 

Maybe someone feels running FPs for an hour just to have enough mats to make one item at the first / entry level is acceptable, I don't.

 

Same with the stuff that requires conquest like basic augments from vendor schematic - even in a large guild that makes a large conquest goal, at best I'd be able to craft 1-2 augments per week.

Edited October 24, 2019 by DawnAskham

[Cupelixx]

Bioware, you guys ****ed up. You ****ed up bad.

 

Here is what it costs in materials to make ONE blue Critical Augment 73:

 

1x Prototype Syntex Synth Bonded Cloth:

10x Prototype Data Spike

10x Prototype Woven Syntex

8x Premium Veda Cloth

Subassemblies: 3x Premium Syntex Synth Bonded Cloth:

24x Standard Veda Cloth

30x Premium Woven Syntex

30x Premium Data Spike

 

2x Prototype Lustrous Synth Bonded Attachment:

20x Prototype Lustrous Artifact Fragment

16x Premium Veda Cloth

20x Prototype Lustrous Bondar Crystal

Subassemblies: 6x Premium Lustrous Synth Bonded Attachment:

48x Standard Veda Cloth

60x Premium Lustrous Bondar Crystal

60x Premium Lustrous Artifact Fragment

 

10x Processed Isotope Stabilizer (Source MM Flashpoint, Operations, Ranked Warzones)

5x Solid Resource Matrix. Source personal conquest goal. Note that this is doable ONCE A WEEK PER CHARACTER AND IT ONLY AWARDS 4x OF THIS ITEM.

 

Total number of materials required: 351

Reverse engineering change to learn purple schematic: 5%

 

May The Force be with you on your RNG chances. Otherwise you just p*****d away 351 materials, 15 of which were difficult to acquire, and you got nothing to show for it. In addition, it costs200 Jawa Junk for ONE green material, so that's not a viable supplement in obtaining crafting materials.

 

Crafting in its current state is an absolute joke. I have hundreds of millions of credits that I will NOT invest into crafting across my 15 characters. If I wanted to literally dump my credits down the drain and gain nothing to show for it, I would give it all away to noobs on Korriban.

 

You want to remove credits from the economy? Fine. Do it in a way without destroying a critical component of the game that has been in since launch. Do it in a way without simply jacking up vendor prices. Put in some nice things for people to spend credits on and it will happen. Do it this way and all you'll manage is to drive people away.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Cupelixx

[DarthBama]

Great post! Would really like a developer comment on this. It really is a disaster.

[Transcendent]

The scam is as I described and incredibly simple to understand.

 

Management want to implement changes which result in people being worse off.

 

To mitigate the negative feelings from people about being worse, management run a simple scam.

 

In the first instance, they overshoot the mark and make people way worse off than they want or need to.

 

People get unhappy. Grumble. Maybe shake their fists and scream a bit.

 

Then management "graciously" and "humbly" respond to said feedback by toning down the negative changes to management's true desired state of affairs. Leaving people feeling "listened to" and "empowered" but truthfully just manipulated.

 

i.e. what we're seeing now is them overshooting their desired mark. They want us to be worse off. They want more credit sinks and grind etc. but not this bad. We complain. They "listen" and tone these changes down but don't reverse them.

 

There's an old saying.

 

"History repeats itself".

 

BioWare Austin have done as you've pointed out frequently in the past, however I think they perhaps may have missed the mark on this one even if they do lessen the impact of some of the changes. They're causing irrecoverable damage to players goodwill, when players have provided them with specific feedback on the PTS.

 

I'm not sure as a studio BioWare can afford to make many more mistakes.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Transcendent

[AscendingSky]

I just don't understand why entry level greens require isotopes.

 

Please, make it make sense.

 

End game schematics should require special materials, but now virtually everything does and it makes no sense at all. I'm someone who has made most of their credits by crafting and selling things and right now I can't do very much of that. The system as it is right now is functionally useless.

 

At least I can still sell old dyes modules.

 

This, this, 100% this. Only end game gear should ever require end game materials. Full stop, end of discussion. Green armorings shouldn't take 20 fracking isotopes and 8 purple conquest-only mats to craft ONE when the RE chance is somewhere around 5% at best.

 

I've heard someone say there are DYE SCHEMATICS that require end game mats now and that's even more ludicrous if it's true. End game mats for purely cosmetic items? Go home, EA, you're drunk.

Edited October 24, 2019 by AscendingSky

[DreadtechSavant]

Bioware, you guys ****ed up. You ****ed up bad.

 

Here is what it costs in materials to make ONE blue Critical Augment 73:

 

1x Prototype Syntex Synth Bonded Cloth:

10x Prototype Data Spike

10x Prototype Woven Syntex

8x Premium Veda Cloth

Subassemblies: 3x Premium Syntex Synth Bonded Cloth:

24x Standard Veda Cloth

30x Premium Woven Syntex

30x Premium Data Spike

 

2x Prototype Lustrous Synth Bonded Attachment:

20x Prototype Lustrous Artifact Fragment

16x Premium Veda Cloth

20x Prototype Lustrous Bondar Crystal

Subassemblies: 6x Premium Lustrous Synth Bonded Attachment:

48x Standard Veda Cloth

60x Premium Lustrous Bondar Crystal

60x Premium Lustrous Artifact Fragment

 

10x Processed Isotope Stabilizer (Source MM Flashpoint, Operations, Ranked Warzones)

5x Solid Resource Matrix. Source personal conquest goal. Note that this is doable ONCE A WEEK PER CHARACTER AND IT ONLY AWARDS 4x OF THIS ITEM.

 

Total number of materials required: 351

Reverse engineering change to learn purple schematic: 5%

 

May The Force be with you on your RNG chances. Otherwise you just p*****d away 351 materials, 15 of which were difficult to acquire, and you got nothing to show for it. In addition, it costs200 Jawa Junk for ONE green material, so that's not a viable supplement in obtaining crafting materials.

 

Crafting in its current state is an absolute joke. I have hundreds of millions of credits that I will NOT invest into crafting across my 15 characters. If I wanted to literally dump my credits down the drain and gain nothing to show for it, I would give it all away to noobs on Korriban.

 

You want to remove credits from the economy? Fine. Do it in a way without destroying a critical component of the game that has been in since launch. Do it in a way without simply jacking up vendor prices. Put in some nice things for people to spend credits on and it will happen. Do it this way and all you'll manage is to drive people away.

 

Yes a lot and just not worth it, Sometimes you have to wonder who at BW came up with this?

, As many others have said, just not crafting any more other than bonded component mods and Invasion Force, then only to sell as a solo player cannot make dark projects so no point in keeping the Invasion Force . I will still craft tier/grade 9 stuff and below. Mainly dyes for my alts. But also many items under the stronghold section of crafting as well. none of the new stuff.

 

As for

"Do it this way and all you'll manage is to drive people away"

 

Unlikely! Players use "drive people away" for whatever beef they have at the time, It has been used on almost every subject on the forums since I have been playing. Drive players away from crafting? That I'd agree with.

"

Edited October 24, 2019 by DreadtechSavant

[Syndraccion]

I haven't read every single post in this thread, so forgive me if I'm retreading old ground.

 

From a design standpoint, Grade 11 crafting actually makes perfect sense. They were trying to bring it in line with the rest of Spoils of War, which is random, grindy, and time-consuming. Traditionally, pre-Ossus, crafters were hampered by the fact that the mods they could craft were slightly weaker than ones that dropped or were purchased and didn't have set bonuses. With the bonuses now on the shell, if Grade 11 followed the standard of the other grades, crafters would have all of their toons in purple gear within a week.

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to defend this blatant insult of a system, which repeats multiple design flaws that have been driving people away for three years and counting. The only plus Spoils of War has over Galactic Command is that it (apparently) doesn't require a constant subscription. I have Artifice, Archaeology, Treasure Hunting and Slicing all maxed out and still can't make a simple green hilt because of the inane hoops we're required to jump through. Is Grade 11 crafting a flaming pile of dog crap and a slap in the face? You bet it is. Are they likely to change it? You bet they aren't.

[DawnAskham]

After tracking missions today, I found another issue with crafting.

 

Crafting any item requires multiple bonded attachments, crafting a green item requires green attachments, crafting a blue item require blue attachments, and crafting a purple item requires purple attachments.

 

Each green attachment costs 10 X 2 green materials (20 green mats), each blue attachments costs 3 green attachments (60 green materials) + 10 x 2 blue materials (20 blue mats), and purple attachments cost 3 blue attachments (180 green mats + 60 blue mats) + 15 x 2 purple materials (30 materials).

 

Materials ratio when crafting purple items are 180 : 60 : 30 (green : blue : purple), blue items are 60 : 20 (green:blue), and green items require just green materials for assemblies.

 

Yet when running missions, especially of the rich / bountiful type, I receive at least twice as many blue materials as green (most rich / bountiful missions return no green materials), and similar numbers of purple materials as green.

 

ALL missions, including rich and bountiful should ALWAYS return green materials in a quantity multiples higher than blue, with additional green / blue / purple materials returned on a critical success (not just more blue / purple).

 

At this point, it is better to run mostly moderate and abundant missions for gathering skills if trying to craft anything as the supply of green materials are far more constrained when running rich and bountiful missions while the materials requirements for green materials far outstrips that of blue or purple.

Edited October 25, 2019 by DawnAskham

[curulz]

They just added extra layers that seem unnecessary. Making the components independent of each other would go a long way. I don't see why you need green mats/assemblies to craft blue assemblies.

 

The number of mats required seem high, but I could live with it if you didn't need more greens to craft blue and more blues to craft purple.

 

Add in that you need the new isoptopes for some gear and a lower %chance to learn a schematic

 

Ideally they'd lower the required mats (or increase yields), reduce the stacking requirements on crafting blue/purple, and drop the isotope requirements on greens and blues. Or some mixture to make it more tolerable

Edited October 25, 2019 by curulz

[Estelindis]

At this point, it is better to run mostly moderate and abundant missions for gathering skills if trying to craft anything as the supply of green materials are far more constrained when running rich and bountiful missions while the materials requirements for green materials far outstrips that of blue or purple.

Yep. I said as much during my PTS feedback. What's more, the three fundamental gathering skills (I see slicing as a supplementary gathering skill), which have two types of main material per grade - arch's artifacts and power crystals; scav's metals and compounds; bio's samples and compounds - only have one mission of each yield for each type of material. So, for instance, there is only one moderate yield power crystal mission (the one that returns only greens). And greens, as you say, are what we need most. This is unfortunately yet another bottleneck in the system.

 

Just gonna quote myself for reference, in case any devs reading this might've missed the initial feedback thread for whatever reason:

There are many reasons why it's so slow to get enough materials.

1. Basic components cost 10/10/10 instead of the historical 2/2/2.
   
2. All materials and components now have three qualities, with each higher quality component needing triple the previous one as well as materials of its own level.
   
3. Premium-quality materials are most needed in crafting, but only half of gathering missions are much good for returning those materials (moderate yield missions give all premium, while abundant yield missions give about half premium; bountiful give a mere pittance of premium, and rich none at all). This restricts the number of companions who can be sent to get the most needed materials.
   
4. Furthermore, the three gathering skills that have two types of material (archaeology, bioanalysis, and scavenging) have only one mission of each yield threshold of each type of material (so, for instance, only one moderate power crystal mission), further restricting the number of companions who can be sent to get what we want.
   

Edited October 25, 2019 by Estelindis

[ZionHalcyon]

I can't say I'm surprised even a little. I really don't even know why they do the test center as they ignore the player feedback but that not really shocking. To be honest it didn't make sense from the start as it didn't follow how crafting has worked and the new system locks a lot of people out of crafting common green gear, which have little value anyway.

 

The only logical reason I can think of for these weird changes is that they are trying to force grouping or strongly encourage it by locking need materials behind it. This seems possible as they also are making content harder and moving up conquest etc, which all encourage group, specifically joining large guilds. It a bad move in my opinion and I think it just going to turn people off. It really makes me sad as I enjoy crafting.

 

I know I've been getting the business for being captain positivity on the forums lately, but I will definitely agree that the crafting changes are really awful. I said so during PTS, and am still saying so now.

 

Here's the thing:

 

There has to, HAS TO be an underlying reason for this.

 

I know its fashionable to say "Bioware doesn't listen, why have a PTS, blah blah blah." but that isn't entirely true:

 

For all the NON-crafting issues, Bioware was VERY active in listening to the players. They adjusted tacticals and set bonuses, and were very good with feedback.

 

So, that leads me to believe the crafting changes were deliberate, that they knew this was going to be a flying turd when it left the PTS, and were prepared for the pushback.

 

Why else would they listen to a bunch of things, but not this specifically?

 

My own working theory is that they want to keep things expensive until people are mostly geared - then they will "see the light" and bring costs down. In other words, they are being deliberately obtuse to get people to play the gearing system.

 

If there's another explanation, I don't have enough information to figure it out, because the fact that they listened on other stuff shows they listen on PTS - its just why specifically ignore crafting?

[DawnAskham]

Crafting is just *** backwards right now.

 

Rich and bountiful missions being effectively downgrades to mat needs is idiotic - they require a higher skill level, cost more to run, and take longer.

 

The new qualities of materials (blue / purple gathering materials, green mission materials), additional steps in crafting (new blue / purple assemblies), extra complexity (multiple mission skills materials needed to craft anything), and increased materials requirements each individually would have been annoying, but put together in a multiplicative fashion as they are just absolutely pisses me off.

 

Add in the silly low RE chance to learn a +2 version of an item along with the need for materials from group content and especially conquest to craft green and blue basic vendor schematic items and all I can conclude is that someone on the development team is either a complete idiot or really hates the idea of players engaging in crafting.

 

Anyways - glad I'm not paying for this, sub status runs out this weekend, will check back from time to time and see if they address - but they need to make a lot of changes for me to re-engage.

Edited October 25, 2019 by DawnAskham

[meddani]

one of the reasons why i unsubbed , after almost 8 years it's enough.

 

 

 

And no you can't have my stuff....

[TrixxieTriss]

I know I've been getting the business for being captain positivity on the forums lately, but I will definitely agree that the crafting changes are really awful. I said so during PTS, and am still saying so now.

 

Here's the thing:

 

There has to, HAS TO be an underlying reason for this.

 

I know its fashionable to say "Bioware doesn't listen, why have a PTS, blah blah blah." but that isn't entirely true:

 

For all the NON-crafting issues, Bioware was VERY active in listening to the players. They adjusted tacticals and set bonuses, and were very good with feedback.

 

So, that leads me to believe the crafting changes were deliberate, that they knew this was going to be a flying turd when it left the PTS, and were prepared for the pushback.

 

Why else would they listen to a bunch of things, but not this specifically?

 

My own working theory is that they want to keep things expensive until people are mostly geared - then they will "see the light" and bring costs down. In other words, they are being deliberately obtuse to get people to play the gearing system.

 

If there's another explanation, I don't have enough information to figure it out, because the fact that they listened on other stuff shows they listen on PTS - its just why specifically ignore crafting?

 

I don’t know if you are right or wrong, but if that is the case, then Bioware are dumb because it will make a bunch of people leave the game.

[Estelindis]

I don’t know if you are right or wrong, but if that is the case, then Bioware are dumb because it will make a bunch of people leave the game.

Yeah, obviously we can hardly know for sure, but I feel like there are enough ways for things to go wrong by mistake without needing to look for ways it could've happened on purpose. I know some folks might find it reassuring to imagine there's an intended reason for everything we don't like, but I think Hanlon's razor shaves this away. Most likely, someone(s) made some poor calls in the design process and there hasn't been time to fix those following player feedback. I imagine it's not a trivial matter to make fundamental change in a couple of weeks without having time to test those changes.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Estelindis

[Benirons]

Id like to add my voice to this outrage.

 

I did not do PTS cause I did not get payed for "testing," period. So this is first time im seeing crafting with my own eyes.

 

Right off the bat, the next tier of assembly component requires the previous tier of assembly component. Just y? U r making crafting awfully convoluted. Thats as far as i got. Im seeing in other posts and elsewhere just how much stuff inconsequential items need to be crafted. On top of that the horrid RE chances.

 

Tyvm, crafting is dead to me, im going to stay with my mk-10 stuff. Shame on you Bioware. I wish we could strip u nekkid and march u through a medieval mob to get pelted with rotten vegetables. Thats what u deserve. Tons of feedback was given and ignored.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah, obviously we can hardly know for sure, but I feel like there are enough ways for things to go wrong by mistake without needing to look for ways it could've happened on purpose. I know some folks might find it reassuring to imagine there's an intended reason for everything we don't like, but I think Hanlon's razor shaves this away. Most likely, someone(s) made some poor calls in the design process and there hasn't been time to fix those following player feedback. I imagine it's not a trivial matter to make fundamental change in a couple of weeks without having time to test those changes.

 

I posted this in another thread, but it just as relevant, if not more in this one.

 

It would interesting to see Bioware’s internal metrics on how many people are unsubbing due to the abortive crafting system,

 

By the time they cotton on to what’s happening it will be too late because people will have left “AGAIN” due to a Bioware blunder.

 

Bioware really are their own worst enemies. They have these ideas that no one likes or wants. They implement them after the community tells them how much they hate them. Then players leave and don’t come back. It’s why we only have 5 servers now and two of those are language servers that are mostly empty. So essentially we only have 3 servers.

 

When will this team realise that making the game unfun or a drag on people’s time to have fun, that players will leave for greener pastures where they can relax and have fun playing a game.

[Estelindis]

I posted this in another thread, but it just as relevant, if not more in this one.

In the PTS forum, I made pretty much the same argument as your post that you quoted. I warned them that, yes, they could take an incremental approach to their changes, but the longer they take, the more crafters are going to have left the game in the meantime. Ultimately, I'd say they have calculated one or both of the following: 1) they did not have time to make fundamental change before launch and test it (and putting it live untested they couldn't accept), and/or 2) they could not justify "throwing away" so much of the system they put together without even giving it a chance to live or die in a live environment with many more people than just PTS users. I could personally understand both perspectives... The thought of making such huge change and then having to throw it out is sickening. But the only one I think would actually be a legit reason is the first, i.e. not having enough time. Because I truly believe that the issues we found then could not help but be found now, and will continue to be found, until there is massive systemic change. Lots of posts and threads are backing that up. Still, only BW have access to full player metrics. I guess time will tell if our judgement turns out to apply to the whole playerbase's experience of crafting. BW are taking a wait and see approach, so in a sense we must too. We don't have a choice. But while we wait, we still have the right (maybe even the duty) to report on our experience.

[phalczen]

Estel it’s not an “issue,” as if to say it was some bug, or an unintended consequence. This is a travesty.

 

They darn well knew the system sucked. Instead of fixing the actual problems Citrienne, TerraStomper, and JediBodicea demonstrated with data, they made the Supplements (the white mats hat now also have green and blue versions) cheaper and took away the conquest material from green crap.

 

This was all intended. They put so much time into all that art, all that re-coding to require all this nested stuff, and took the time to make crafted set bonuses and tacticals, and amplifiers that affect crafting, which indicates you actually want people to craft.. Then you literally undo all of that by increasing resource requirements, in some cases, 30-fold, and nerf the RE chance into the ground so hard it’s on the other side of the planet.

 

Nesting would have been enough. Blue and purple grades of gathering-skill materials would have been more than enough. But then you increase the resources at all the new grades, add in exotics for green leveling crap, and atomize the RE chance.

 

They knew all this two weeks ago and they DOUBLED DOWN on it. They knew darn well it was crud and they changed 1.5 things of the seven or so most important changes. It’s so inconsistent with the other things obviously done to promote crafting.

 

It’s such an unmitigated disaster, the white knights can’t even defend it.

[XxHazenxX]

Honestly, I just wish the game would die already so someone else can give their shot at the next Star Wars MMO. We all know there will be a third one at some point, but the longer this crap keeps going, the longer we have to wait for someone to (hopefully) do it right this time. Only bad thing is EA will still have to be involved.

 

This update (I won't call it an expansion because it isn't) after 3 years is a joke in every possible way.