All the systems for 6.0 seem unappealing. Bioware you need to pay attention.

[olagatonjedi]

You offered to explain to me earlier how RNG grants the players more control, yet ignored my request or forgot you asked. Can you explain clearly how RNG actually grants the player MORE control over gearing versus say a system that rewards tokens for every activity completed?

I have explained it ad nauseum on a few different threads. I have also indicated multiple times that loot systems are more than just the loot method. Its easy to look at my post history to find those threads. I hope that helps. That said, if you are simply looking to compare the loot method (which isnt what this thread is specifically about), then that is a totally different conversation and doesnt really apply to swtor because loot systems, in general, are more complex than that.

 

If there are 3 elements to a loot system, but you only control 1 of them, do you have majority control? The answer is no. And while the loot systems are generally complex, understanding the math of it really is as simple as I just presented.

Edited September 18, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[Raansu]

I have explained it ad nauseum on a few different threads.

 

Except you haven't. All you've done is give troll responses and half answers.

[olagatonjedi]

Except you haven't. All you've done is give troll responses and half answers.

You must be right!

[Darev]

I have explained it ad nauseum on a few different threads. I have also indicated multiple times that loot systems are more than just the loot method. Its easy to look at my post history to find those threads. I hope that helps. That said, if you are simply looking to compare the loot method (which isnt what this thread is specifically about), then that is a totally different conversation and doesnt really apply to swtor because loot systems, in general, are more complex than that.

 

If there are 3 elements to a loot system, but you only control 1 of them, do you have majority control? The answer is no. And while the loot systems are generally complex, understanding the math of it really is as simple as I just presented.

 

Please, prove us all wrong. Point us to the post where you bestow your wisdom on us meager masses.

 

We're waiting.

[Totemdancer]

Its funny that you say this. For a few days, i had been thinking of the perfect perspective for 4.0 type gearing (since people keep referring to it as what they want). I guess I would describe 4.0s loot system as the player being a little kid. The parent (BW) allows the kid an allowance of $5.00 per week, if they do their chores. The kid can spend the $5.00 on whatever he wants, but he will never make more than $5.00 a week because the parent decides that amount. If the kid wants that new computer for $300, he will need to wait at least 60 weeks before he can get it. And the parent tell him there is no way he can get it sooner, even if he does extra chores.

 

I’m sure you never played pvp in 4.0 because nothing could be further from the truth. You could gear up as fast or as slow as you wanted through progression game play. You could even prepare for lvl 65 by playing lowbies and Mids to accumulate Comms. I could literally put on ranked pvp gear with in a week or less by playing the content I wanted from lvl 10 to lvl 65.

I don’t see how any of that is gated or limited under your $5 a week analogy.

There was zero RNG and I had 100% control over my gearing.

 

Also, still waiting on an answer to explain "rng = more player control" argument.

Actually you haven’t provided anything. Just one liners that don’t explain anything. How about writing a point by point detailed explanation using logic to explain what you mean. Everyone else here has been able to explain and debate this topic in great detail, why can’t you?

 

It seems every time you are asked to provide a hard answer to back up your claims you ignore the post and change direction in you argument.

Please provide a detailed answer to the quest. How does more RNG = more player control. If you can explain it properly, how do you expect us to understand.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Totemdancer

[Totemdancer]

You offered to explain to me earlier how RNG grants the players more control, yet ignored my request or forgot you asked. Can you explain clearly how RNG actually grants the player MORE control over gearing versus say a system that rewards tokens for every activity completed?

 

 

Example:

 

If you get 10 tokens every time you do a WZ, and a piece of gear costs 100 tokens that's a lot more control than doing a WZ but having a dice rolled for how many tokens you get, 1-10, which is RNG. The randomly generated 1-10 tokens is far less consistent and lacks control by the player to evenly work towards the goal of 100 total tokens for one piece of gear.

 

 

Maybe you are confused by what RNG actually is and so that's what is causing your misunderstanding of how RNG actually removes control from the player to work towards gearing compared to a set amount of currency/loot or whatever it is needed to progress gearing.

 

Remember, RNG is an acronym, it stands for "randomly generated number" in most circles. Hopefully this helps clear up your misunderstanding of what RNG is.

 

He won’t explain because he knows he is wrong and it will prove his argument is wrong. So of course he can only be vague about it or ignore the requests because he actually can’t answer the question logically.

[Totemdancer]

You must be right!

 

He is right. We’ve all asked you to honestly explain it so we can understand your point of view, but you keep deflecting instead of actually giving us a constructive post that outlines the argument.

If you won’t do that or can’t do that then what else do you expect us to think except you are trolling.

Many of us have disagreed with each other in this thread, but we have all explained our positions why logically to put our points across. You seem to be the only one not willing to do that and everyone is getting the impression you are just trolling. If you do not want us to think that, then explain what you mean.

[olagatonjedi]

Still waiting for a counter to the points i have made. I cant force anyone to understand if they are unwilling. If you cant find my argument, thats not on me. Its there for all to see, including the devs. It doesnt matter how much mob mentality comes my way, it cant force me into ignorance. I see what is in front of us, what has been in front of us before, and i understand its purpose relative to the game. Perhaps many others dont. All i can do is try to enlighten them and remove that ignorance being cast towards me, but at a certain point they need to be responsible for themselves. Edited September 18, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[Totemdancer]

For those arguing that RNG has always been in the game and that it gives players more control to gear, let me point you to a post from Bioware themselves saying that gearing for pvp was too much of a grind and so they made it easier in 3.3. I’ll also point out that there was zero RNG to gear for pvp. And with 5.0 RNG and the removal of pvp gear there was a mass exodus of pvpers.

http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-economy-and-ranked-rewards-restructure-game-update-3.3

PvP Gear Cost

We think that getting a full set of PvP gear is too much of a grind. This is so much the case that only about 2% of PvP players have a full Dark Reaver set. Having at least Exhumed gear is a barrier to entry to being successful in PvP for the majority of players, so we looked to reduce the time and cost of getting there. We have reduced the entry PvP gear costs by roughly a third, and a full set (not min/maxed) will now cost about 4075 Warzone Commendations

 

This is the most important part of that Bioware post. They firmly and irrevocably stated that they thought getting a full set of pvp gear was too much of a grind.

3.0-3.2 gearing was much less grind than now. And 6.0 grind will be even worse than 5.0 (which made people leave the game on mass) or 5.10 grind. So where did Bioware forget that 3.2 grind was too much and made 3.3 (that was perfected in 4.x) a better system for pvpers.

What the heck happened at Bioware that they forget the lessons learnt in the past?

 

And that’s not the only things they forget. You only need to go back a few months ago when they admit they made mistakes with 5.10 RNG gearing.

It’s like they have institutional schizophrenia and early onset alzheimer's.

 

Schizophrenia : is characterised by thoughts or experiences that seem out of touch with reality, disorganised speech or behaviour and decreased participation in daily activities. (Plus memory loss)

 

Alzheimer's : Memory loss and confusion are the main symptoms.

 

Doesn’t this give you the impression of Bioware’s swtor development, especially the last 5 years.

I know I feel they have been out of touch with the player base, they are often “forgetful” or are disorganised when trying to explain what is going to be delivered (forgetting to tell us about server relocations, telling us 6.0 gearing will be better than 5.10). Jumping from MMO game development to solo game to MMO game. And we have decreased communication when things become difficult or “confusing”. They go from bad RNG gearing in 1.0+ to grindy gear progression in 3.2 and they perfect gearing in 4.x, only to forget all the trial and error of what worked and didn’t work before and go back to an even worse RNG+ Grind system at the same time.

 

They forget the lessons learnt through the game’s development and keep going in circles and revisiting past mistake like they have memory loss and confusion about their own game.

Let me be clear. I’m not suggesting the devs have these illnesses (they obviously don’t), I’m saying Bioware’s internal culture or development comes across as an organisation with a less than coherent direction in swtor development (and even Anthem).

You can’t even blame the change in producers because Ben was the producer that decided 3.2 gearing was too grindy, but then implemented the 5.0 RNG extreme gear grind (compared to 4.0 or 3.3). You also have Keith who spent 2 years reducing the 5.0 RNG grind and giving us back progression gearing (even if it was worse than 4.0) and he is now implementing 6.0 with will be worse than 5.0.

My god, what the heck is going on in that studio to make producers go completely 180” in direction away from what players want and back to what fails each time.

Do they want players to keep leaving the game?

Edited September 18, 2019 by Totemdancer

[Totemdancer]

Still waiting for a counter to the points i have made. I cant force anyone to understand if they are unwilling. If you cant find my argument, thats not on me. Its there for all to see, including the devs. It doesnt matter how much mob mentality comes my way, it cant force me into ignorance. I see what is in front of us, what has been in front of us before, and i understand its purpose relative to the game. Perhaps many others dont. All i can do is try to enlighten them and remove that ignorance being cast towards me, but at a certain point they need to be responsible for themselves.

 

What points? Youve made no coherent points or argument to lay out your position in a logically organised manner.

All we are asking is you do that and we WILL counter or agree (if you are right) with what you say. Until you are able to do that, anything you keep saying about us not responding properly will come across as trolling or derailing the thread to talk about you.

 

Edit : I’ve now gone back and read your last two weeks worth of posts in the general and PTS forums. I’ve not seen you explain anything anywhere except to shoot off one liners with no explanations or attack others. Just about every other post is to deride real feed back (even on the PTS ) and to be the polar opposite of 99.99% of other posters. Even ones giving vital and detailed feed back from PTS testing.

You say you’ve been on the PTS, but have not provided any feed back about the systems to either Bioware or the community. All you want to do is tear down other people’s concerns and “real” feed back. All the other posts in those threads are taken off topic by you to talk about you. Explain to me how we can counter an argument that isn’t even presented.

Anyone who thinks I’m exaggerating can easily go and check to see I’m not lying.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Totemdancer

[XxHazenxX]

-Snip-

Do they want players to keep leaving the game?

 

Honestly, I hope so at this point. The game in its entirety has fallen short from launch starting as a victim of overhype and has always remained behind in various ways. The sooner this game is done, the sooner someone else can take a crack at the third Star Wars MMO. Third time's the charm? I hope so because the schizophrenic direction this game keeps going is getting ridiculous.

 

Oh and hopefully the next one won't be built using a potato engine. You have games like ESO that came out only a year or two after SWTOR and actually have hard-set detailed plans (with dates) regarding performance improvements to keep up with the times, and SWTOR is over here with its 32-bit client re-doing gearing for the 50th time... /facepalm

Edited September 18, 2019 by XxHazenxX

[TonyTricicolo]

Honestly, I hope so at this point. The game in its entirety has fallen short from launch starting as a victim of overhype and has always remained behind in various ways. The sooner this game is done, the sooner someone else can take a crack at the third Star Wars MMO. Third time's the charm? I hope so because the schizophrenic direction this game keeps going is getting ridiculous.

 

Oh and hopefully the next one won't be built using a potato engine.

 

SWG open world/crafting/classless system/jtl + SWTOR instanced cutscenes/voice acting/story + BATTLEFRONT graphics/fast paced action = 3RD SW MMO

Edited September 18, 2019 by TonyTricicolo

[Raansu]

SWG open world/crafting/classless system/jtl + SWTOR instanced cutscenes/voice acting/story + BATTLEFRONT graphics/fast paced action = 3RD SW MMO

 

No thanks....

[olagatonjedi]

3.0-3.2 gearing was much less grind than now. And 6.0 grind will be even worse than 5.0 (which made people leave the game on mass) or 5.10 grind.

Im curious how you came to the conclusion that 6.0 will be more of a grind than 3.0-3.2. Seems like its going to be not only very easy and quick to acquire BIS, but also easier to gear up alts once a player has the max ilvl, since its all legacy-based. The 20 levels of gear should only happen once, if you approach it optimally.

Edited September 18, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[kodrac]

Still waiting for a counter to the points i have made. I cant force anyone to understand if they are unwilling. If you cant find my argument, thats not on me. Its there for all to see, including the devs. It doesnt matter how much mob mentality comes my way, it cant force me into ignorance. I see what is in front of us, what has been in front of us before, and i understand its purpose relative to the game. Perhaps many others dont. All i can do is try to enlighten them and remove that ignorance being cast towards me, but at a certain point they need to be responsible for themselves.

 

This notion that all opinions MUST be respected is bogus. It's how misinformation, conspiracy theory and gaslighting gets legitimized. Respect is earned not a given. I respect you have the right to express your opinion, but that's as far as it goes. If in my judgement I think your opinion is bunk I'll tell you as such. I'm not just going to accept it because "you have to respect my opinion!". No I don't. Your opinion might be patently false, it might be misleading, it might be purposefully confusing to muddy the waters, it might be flat out crazy. You can't just make a claim and expect people to accept it and go along with your theories just because. And you seem to be taking the position that because we don't we're morons.

 

If you want your opinion respected make it respectable. Be respectable yourself. Don't avoid explaining yourself; defend your position. Don't deflect by answering questions with more questions. Show that you're capable of reason. Show that you're capable of conceding a point. Actually debate. Don't blow people off and condescend like the above quote. If it was one of us describing your posts that way you'd accuse us of personal attacks and expect BW to protect you. I know from personal experience. I mean really, enlighten, ignorance? You're talking down and expecting people to respect you. Sorry, but that's not how the world works. You say we need to be responsible. Well, so do you. It's a two way street.

 

Learn from the criticism you're getting. There's a reason you're getting it and it's not because we're ignorant simpletons beneath you. We're not being unreasonable and it's not a personal attack - it's advice.

Edited September 18, 2019 by kodrac

[Totemdancer]

Im curious how you came to the conclusion that 6.0 will be less of a grind than 3.0-3.2. Seems like its going to be not only very easy and quick to acquire BIS, but also easier to gear up alts once a player has the max ilvl, since its all legacy-based. The 20 levels of gear should only happen once, if you approach it optimally.

 

You misunderstand. I said 3.0 was less of a grind than 5.0 and 6.0 will be more of a grind than 5.10.

[Totemdancer]

Appropriate -

 

And yet again you refuse to actually provide an argument or try to structure a post to support your beliefs.

This is after you have repeatedly harassed other people to provide proof or support their own arguments and stay on topic.

I’m just going to ignore you until you can be bothered to approach this debate in a reasonable manner and provide some structured support of your beliefs or conclusions.

Anything is just trolling

[Totemdancer]

Huh? Where is all this coming from? I am here to help you through it, though, my friend. To fully understand loot systems, all you have to do is take my hand.....

 

 

Still waiting for those explanations.

[Raansu]

Still waiting for those explanations.

 

And he wonders why we are calling him a troll.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Yes, back on topic!

 

This is something lots of people already hate on live like in artifact lootbox from ossus. Getting Acc over and over again when your build requires alac or critical. But there is something even worst right now on PTS. We used to have 1 for each tertiary stat of ear and implants. Now we have a lot, as with green vendor enhacements (that is, like 3 or 4 each). And on top of that, main stats are not very consistent in same "Named" (like the countless variations we have now with mods and enhs): https://imgur.com/a/UhOcXrB

 

As for why can't we have mods and enhacements in ear and implants. I always saw those as "extra" enhacements.

 

Yeah, I personally don't like having swap around gear because I won a really good piece of gear with completely wrong stat. It's almost as bad as winning an Ephemeral Mending relic in 5.10.

 

I think bringing back specific tokens for specific bosses would help a lot.

 

Cutting waaaay back on the material and time costs of crafting while boosting the RE chances back up again would make crafting a viable path for at least the early stages of gearing. Right now it's insanely bad.

 

Static, non-set piece gear should only be BoL after being equipped so it can be sold on the GTN.

 

Vendors shouldn't be RNG. Just no! It's fine having Kai Zykken have a random selection, like the old Diablo vendors, as long as you know exactly what you are getting and it isn't exorbitantly priced. And he should be available all week long. Just give him a weekly reset.

 

I think I would rather have specific loot tokens too. I'm trying to imagine my satisfaction with gearing in this new loot system 6 months after launch. I already blindly destroy the items in my GC crates without even looking at them, so it looks like I will be doing the same thing on a larger scale in 6.0. Good thing for the little "up" arrow on the dropped gear that signifies the piece is an upgrade -- or I might auto-destroy every piece of green garbage I come across.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Raansu]

Yeah, I personally don't like having swap around gear because I won a really good piece of gear with a completely wrong stat attached to it. It's almost as bad as winning an Ephemeral Mending relic in 5.10.

 

 

 

I think I would rather have specific loot tokens too. I'm trying to imagine my satisfaction with gearing in this new loot system 6 months after launch. I already blindly destroy the items in my GC crates without even looking at them, so it looks like I will be doing the same thing on a larger scale in 6.0. Good thing for the little "up" arrow on the dropped gear that signifies the piece is an upgrade or I might auto-destroy every green piece of garbage I come across.

 

lol the arrow thing was probably because they saw most of us just destroying everything in the GC crates.

[olagatonjedi]

You misunderstand. I said 3.0 was less of a grind than 5.0 and 6.0 will be more of a grind than 5.10.

My apologies, correct my original post, even though the context was accurate.

[olagatonjedi]

And yet again you refuse to actually provide an argument or try to structure a post to support your beliefs.

This is after you have repeatedly harassed other people to provide proof or support their own arguments and stay on topic.

I’m just going to ignore you until you can be bothered to approach this debate in a reasonable manner and provide some structured support of your beliefs or conclusions.

Anything is just trolling

I cant force you to recognize that the argument and proof have already been provided

Edited September 18, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[kodrac]

Huh? Where is all this coming from? I am here to help you through it, though, my friend. To fully understand loot systems, all you have to do is take my hand.....

 

Yeah yeah blow it off all you want but then don't lose your melon next time you're accused of trolling.

Edited September 18, 2019 by kodrac

[TrixxieTriss]

Couldn’t stay away from the testing 😳 (FYI, not logged into main game, only PTS) because I feel the more testing the better and I don’t want to be one of those people who moan about it after it’s done.

 

Currently testing graphics as it seems this has been missing in the testing. I will start a write up in the PTS forum.